Permacept question

This is probably really straightforward, but it's been niggling at me a little for a while that I might be wrong. (This would also apply to Permastealth, Permableed, whatever) I have Generic Vampire 1 with a Sport Bike. My predator tries to call a political action with GV2. I declare I wish to block woth GV1. Do I automatically count as having +1 Intercept? Or do I declare it's activation, allowing the play of a transient intercept? If i'm right, and it's counted automatically, how does one typically get around Intercept handlock? The only reason I have to question this, is the way in which within a Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1 Damage) can choose to strike with Hand. It seems fairly obvious it counts permanently. But there's enough of a question in my head that I felt I had to ask. Morgan Vening

Morgan Vening wrote: > This is probably really straightforward, but it's been niggling at me > a little for a while that I might be wrong. (This would also apply to > Permastealth, Permableed, whatever) > > I have Generic Vampire 1 with a Sport Bike. > My predator tries to call a political action with GV2. > > I declare I wish to block woth GV1. > Do I automatically count as having +1 Intercept? Or do I declare it's > activation, allowing the play of a transient intercept? The former. > If i'm right, and it's counted automatically, how does one typically > get around Intercept handlock? Wait for more stealth or make an attempt with a different GV (one without built-in intercept). > The only reason I have to question this, is the way in which within a > Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no > declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1 > Damage) can choose to strike with Hand. Note that the vampire voting yea or nay must bring all of his or her votes to bear when doing so. A Justicar cannot vote merely one against, for example. You also cannot shoot for a wing shot with a .44 to do just 1 damage or backhand someone with your Tiger Claws to do only 2 damage. If you're blocking, you're using your intercept. > It seems fairly obvious it counts permanently. But there's enough of a > question in my head that I felt I had to ask. Check. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> If i'm right, and it's counted automatically, how does one typically > get around Intercept handlock? Generally, if you think you'll run the risk of hand jamming on Intercept, you need a way to cycle or to increase your hand size. * The Barrens * Dreams of the Sphinx * Visit from the Capuchin * Aura Reading * Improvised Tactics (if anarch) * Relentless Pursuit * Velya the Flayer * Distraction * Flurry of Action * Fragment of the Book of Nod * Scrounging * Elder Library There may be others, but that's what I've come up with off the top of my head. When I'm playing intercept, I always have some way of cycling my intercept cards for that time that I get a 0 stealth deck as my predator. --> J "Fry crack corn, and I don't care, Leela crack corn, I still don't care, Bender crack corn and he is great; Take that you stupid corn!" grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com to email me

> If i'm right, and it's counted automatically, how does one typically > get around Intercept handlock? Generally, if you think you'll run the risk of hand jamming on [ quoted text not captured ]

> If i'm right, and it's counted automatically, how does one typically > get around Intercept handlock? Generally, if you think you'll run the risk of hand jamming on [ quoted text not captured ]

> The only reason I have to question this, is the way in which within a > Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no > declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1 > Damage) can choose to strike with Hand. > Abstain and Null are the same thing.

[ quoted text not captured ] I always thought they were seperate. In that an Abstaining Vampire has explicitly said so (not many reasons), or was forced to do so (inferior Kindred Coercion), and a null voting vampire was one that just hadn't declared it's votes yet. I always figured it went... For +1 Against -1 Abstain +-0 Null N/A I guess the crux here is, is there a difference between a vampire who hasn't yet voted, and a vampire who has, for Michael Luther's special ability? Can he 'change' a vote of someone who hasn't yet made one? If so, why is there a significant wording difference from Ellison Humbolt, when they were released only 3 months apart (according to Lasombra's Index Page) Morgan Vening

"Morgan Vening" <mor...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message news:8g7dr05pnumcdtdgq...@4ax.com... > On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:38:55 -0500, Gregory Stuart Pettigrew > <ethe...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote: > > >> The only reason I have to question this, is the way in which within a > >> Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no > >> declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1 > >> Damage) can choose to strike with Hand. > > > >Abstain and Null are the same thing. > > I always thought they were seperate. In that an Abstaining Vampire has > explicitly said so (not many reasons), or was forced to do so > (inferior Kindred Coercion), and a null voting vampire was one that > just hadn't declared it's votes yet. > > I always figured it went... > For +1 > Against -1 > Abstain +-0 > Null N/A Null and Abstain are the same thing there -- The vampire isn't currently voting. A vampire who hasn't declared his votes is abstaining (until such time as he casts his votes, if ever). > I guess the crux here is, is there a difference between a vampire who > hasn't yet voted, and a vampire who has, for Michael Luther's special > ability? Can he 'change' a vote of someone who hasn't yet made one? If Yes and no. He can change the vampire's disposition, but he can't make the vampire cast his votes. That is, he can restrict the way the vampire's votes can be cast if they are ever cast. > so, why is there a significant wording difference from Ellison > Humbolt, when they were released only 3 months apart (according to > Lasombra's Index Page) Ellison can force the vampire to cast his votes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

"The only reason I have to question this, is the way in which within a Political Action, a Vampire can vote yay, nay, abstain, or null (no declaration). And within combat, a Vampire with a Meat Cleaver (+1 Damage) can choose to strike with Hand." But there is a rule that prevents you from playing intercept when not needed, while there is no rule preventing you to cast a vote or playing bewitching orations when you dont need it, or to strike for 7 damage against a vampire with 1 blood counter. As they are completelly different situations that are governed by completelly different part of the rulebook, a comparison between those is completelly invalid.

so we can kind of picture votes like counters sitting on the vampire. green counters mean 'in favour' red counters mean 'against' when you cast your votes, you take all the counters off the vampire and put it in the 'referendum pot'. some effects can change the colour of the counters, whether they are in the pot or not. ('change the votes...'. eg: Michael Luther) some other effects can actually make you pick up the counters and put them in the pot.('cast the votes...' eg: Ellison Humboldt.) does that sound about right? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

salem wrote: > so we can kind of picture votes like counters sitting on the vampire. > green counters mean 'in favour' > red counters mean 'against' > > when you cast your votes, you take all the counters off the vampire > and put it in the 'referendum pot'. > > some effects can change the colour of the counters, whether they are > in the pot or not. ('change the votes...'. eg: Michael Luther) > some other effects can actually make you pick up the counters and put > them in the pot.('cast the votes...' eg: Ellison Humboldt.) > > does that sound about right? It works, sure. Some effects can move the counters from the pot back to the vampire, as well. I'd have used some sort of "color of the vampire" metaphor, since that's more closely matching how I think of it, but the result is the same. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:56:14 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >salem wrote: >> so we can kind of picture votes like counters sitting on the vampire. >> green counters mean 'in favour' >> red counters mean 'against' >> >> when you cast your votes, you take all the counters off the vampire >> and put it in the 'referendum pot'. >> >> some effects can change the colour of the counters, whether they are >> in the pot or not. ('change the votes...'. eg: Michael Luther) >> some other effects can actually make you pick up the counters and put >> them in the pot.('cast the votes...' eg: Ellison Humboldt.) >> >> does that sound about right? > >It works, sure. > >Some effects can move the counters from the pot back to the vampire, >as well. > >I'd have used some sort of "color of the vampire" metaphor, since >that's more closely matching how I think of it, but the result >is the same. See, this is the problem I seem to have. Kindred Coercion Type: Reaction Requires: Dominate Cost: X blood Only usable during a referendum. [dom] Force X vampires to abstain from voting. This can cancel those vampires' votes. The affected vampires cannot be older than this reacting vampire. At Inferior, above, if there isn't a difference between what I have previously called a Null vote, and an Abstaining vote, it seems like there is nothing to stop the vampire from "putting his counters back in the pot" unless prohibited (Disarming Presence played or the like). Hence the reason I believed a declaration could be Abstain, and was just as binding as a Yea or Nay. Morgan Vening

> At Inferior, above, if there isn't a difference between what I have > previously called a Null vote, and an Abstaining vote, it seems like > there is nothing to stop the vampire from "putting his counters back > in the pot" unless prohibited (Disarming Presence played or the like). > Hence the reason I believed a declaration could be Abstain, and was > just as binding as a Yea or Nay. There is a difference between this and voluntarily abstaining. If you choose to abstain, you can always throw your votes in whenever you choose before the referendum has finished. If you are _forced_ to abstain, the choice has been made for you, and you do not get that option. Hence the term _forced_ -- J -- [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 01:56:14 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >salem wrote: [vote counters and tally pots] >It works, sure. > >Some effects can move the counters from the pot back to the vampire, >as well. > >I'd have used some sort of "color of the vampire" metaphor, since >that's more closely matching how I think of it, but the result >is the same. if you use colour of the beads, then it's easier to tally the vote at the end by just emptying the pot onto a clear space of table and counting them. i'm temped to actually do something like this (in an actual rather than metaphorical sense) for those times when voting gets a tad messy and people forget where the voting's at and have to recount it 4 or 5 times over the course of the referendum. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:02:07 +1100, Morgan Vening <mor...@optusnet.com.au> scrawled: >Kindred Coercion >Type: Reaction >Requires: Dominate >Cost: X blood >Only usable during a referendum. >[dom] Force X vampires to abstain from voting. This can cancel those >vampires' votes. The affected vampires cannot be older than this >reacting vampire. > >At Inferior, above, if there isn't a difference between what I have >previously called a Null vote, and an Abstaining vote, it seems like >there is nothing to stop the vampire from "putting his counters back >in the pot" unless prohibited (Disarming Presence played or the like). >Hence the reason I believed a declaration could be Abstain, and was >just as binding as a Yea or Nay. you could think of it as : "Force X vampires to abstain from voting {for the duration of this action}." where the {} comes from how you handle Reaction and Action Modifier cards during an action as written in the rulebook. [ quoted text not captured ]