There are always lots of questions about when someone calls a
strike and another person responds with something else, the timeing, "can
I change my mind," and so on. Here are my thoughts.
First, keep these three points in mind:
1. There is no rule-given order for strike declaration.
2. Manouvers are declared before strikes.
3. If you change range using a weapon, you have to use the weapon
to strike.
Let's do no. 2 and 3 first, they're easy. This means basically that if
you play a card that allows a manouver and then a strike (i.e. aid from
bats), or you use a weapon to manouver, you are stuck with that strike.
You have, effectively, told your opponent your strike choice before s/he
has to declare theirs, and you cannot change your mind. They can use
that information to decide their best course of action and you are stuck.
These types of cards, then, give your opponent an ADVANTAGE over you in
combat. Your advantage is that they move you out of range (hopefully),
while still doing damage, and (in the case of most weapons) a single card
can be used over and over again.
Weapons are often a good choice, but you should be aware that they leave
you open to tricky manouvers and unforseen problems, because YOU can't
react to THEM.
Now for the mind-bending part.
No.1 is the biggie. This means basically that if you have a defensive
strike (i.e. dodge, dodge with additional strike, take no damage from
strikes, reduce damage from strikes, and so on), you are at an advantage
over an opponent who is using an offensive strike (well-aimed car, burst
of sunlight, thrown sewer lid, and so on).
Why?
Because you should (in this case) ALWAYS let the opponent (i.e. the
OFFENSIVE player) declare their strike first. After all, if they aren't
going to use that nasty Walk of flame, why bother with wasting your
Dodge? At least now you have the option. Wait until they say "I
declare/use no strike."
This begs the question, "what happens if they say they won't declare
their strike until I delcare mine?" Well, basically, you can both sit
there and stew for a while, or you can cave in, or (the BEST answer) you
can say "Well, I woon't declare mine until you declare yours."
Now you are at an impasse. But that's okay (apart from feeling
childish). Now you force the issue. "Well then, since we both aren't
going to delcare strikes, we each lose 1 blood."
And if your opponent doesn't like that, well, they can then declare their
strike. But then you can declare yours afterwards.
"What if they change their mind"
for example: Offensive> "I delare no strike."
Defensive> "Okay, neither do I. We each lose 1."
Offensive> "Ha! I changed my mind. If you're not going
to use a strike, I'll use Walk of Flame!"
Well, if they can do this, so can you.
Final Comments- A lot of the above situations sound immature, or
childish, and you may say "I would never act that way." But they do
happen. Nobody wants to use a great card like Wolf Claws or Cauldron of
Blood and have it fail. No one wants their flamethrower lost to first
striking canine hordes, or their assault rifle stolen. These comments
are meant to make people realize that if you're going to use an offensive
strike, you are most likely going to have to declare it before your
opponent declares their strike and then just cross your fingers.
It is "unsportsmanlike" (for lack of a better term) to call a strike, wait
for your opponent to reveal their hand, and then say "oh, I didn't want
to do that. Can I take it back?" The answer is NO. TOUGH LUCK.
How to get around this? Play with impatient opponents, who like
to use lots of cards. Or try and match your combats so that your
"default strike" (hand damage) is nasty enough that the other player
won't want to take it regardless...let's face it, if you attack with
Basilia, and they have a dodge in their hand, they'll probably use it.
*****
If people agree with me or disagree with me, like this article or not, I
would appreciate comments, corrections (from people who know better, or
have the rules memorized verbatim), and anythinge else you may want to
say. Hope this clears up some questions.
Eric
hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu
--
Oh better far to live and die | (#)
Under the brave black flag I fly, =/ /===_)-----
Than play a sanctimonious part, \_/
With a pirate head and pirate heart // \\
/ / - Eric
Eric Robert Sylwester (hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: There are always lots of questions about when someone calls a: strike and another person responds with something else, the timeing, "can
: I change my mind," and so on. Here are my thoughts.: First, keep these three points in mind:
: 1. There is no rule-given order for strike declaration.
: 2. Manouvers are declared before strikes.
: 3. If you change range using a weapon, you have to use the weapon
: to strike.
I don't have a copy of the rules handy (if some one does, they can
clear this up), but we have always played that the acting minion plays
manuevers, strikes, presses first. Of course this gives the blocking minion
an advantage, but heck the defender should have an advantage. I'm almost sure
that's rught, but I haven't read the rules in a LONG time.
Larrx...
Eric Robert Sylwester (hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
... a lot of wrong things on the order of strike declaration, which is
sure to confuse many of the newer players.
: First, keep these three points in mind:: 1. There is no rule-given order for strike declaration.
: 2. Manouvers are declared before strikes.
: 3. If you change range using a weapon, you have to use the weapon
: to strike.
2 and 3 are correct, but 1 is patently false. The order of combat is:
1. Choose range (maneuvers - if none, then range is close)
2. Choose strike (weapon, special cards, etc. If none then strike is
with hands. You must always declare a strike of some sort, and if
you have no cards you wish to play, then strike is with hands.)
3. Resolve strike
3. Play cards that allow additional strikes
3a. Choose Range on additional strikes
(default is close, regardless of range of initial strikes)
3b. Choose Strike on additional strikes
(again, default is hands)
3c. Resolve additional strikes
(parts 3a-c can *only* be done by whichever minions have additional strikes)
4. Press (if any)
: Let's do no. 2 and 3 first, they're easy. This means basically that if: you play a card that allows a manouver and then a strike (i.e. aid from
: bats), or you use a weapon to manouver, you are stuck with that strike.
: You have, effectively, told your opponent your strike choice before s/he
: has to declare theirs, and you cannot change your mind. They can use
: that information to decide their best course of action and you are stuck.
Absolutely true - I cannot count the times I have used a weapon to
maneuver away from a Brujah, only to have the Bruja play a maneuver card
to bring me back to close and then beat on me... :-(
: These types of cards, then, give your opponent an ADVANTAGE over you in: combat. Your advantage is that they move you out of range (hopefully),
: while still doing damage, and (in the case of most weapons) a single card
: can be used over and over again.
... usually. Some weapons say right on them that they can only be used
once per combat (shotgun comes to mind...)
: Because you should (in this case) ALWAYS let the opponent (i.e. the: OFFENSIVE player) declare their strike first. After all, if they aren't
: going to use that nasty Walk of flame, why bother with wasting your
: Dodge? At least now you have the option. Wait until they say "I
: declare/use no strike."
No no no!
When combat happens, the above steps are performed by both minions, but
the _acting_ minion always has to declare what he is doing first.
Example: I try and bleed you. You block it. Combat ensues. As the
acting minion, (the one who was attempting to perform the blocked action)
I must declare my maneuvers before you declare yours, my strikes before
you declare yours, my additional strikes befgore you declare yours, and
my presses before you declare yours.
The acting player/minion is the one who was trying to take the action.
If I was attempting to equip and you blocked it, I am the acting minion.
If I was trying to get one ov my vamps out of torpor and you block, I am
still the acting minion. Basically, if something that you attempt to do
on your tuen is blocked by another player, you are the acting player.
This *does* give a definite advantage to the person who blocked the
action, but that's the way the rules are written. If I (as the defender)
know that you are going to use your shotgun on me, (because you are the
acting player and you have to declare your strike before I declare mine)
then I am wise to use my dodge, but if you decide to use hands, then I
might as well just wade in there too and save the dodge for a nastier
attack.
: Nobody wants to use a great card like Wolf Claws or Cauldron of: Blood and have it fail. No one wants their flamethrower lost to first
: striking canine hordes, or their assault rifle stolen.
If you ar the acting player, however, these things happen. It helps to
know who you are playing and what sorts of cards they have in their
decks, but not always. A smart player will only use the assault rifle in
a situation where the possible benefit (torporing the blocker) outweighs
the possible loss of the weapon. A Brujah/Toreador player will simply
use hands/dodge, then play blur for additional strikes and nail you with
it then (when you cannot do *anything* as you do not have any additional
strike phases.) A dodge made in the primary strike does not carry over
to the additional strike phase...
Sometimes, however, you just gotta take the chance, and sometimes you are
just gonna lose that flamethrower...
Shane Travis | Opportunity is missed by most people because
sht...@duke.usask.ca | it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | -- Thomas Edison
Rules, 15.1 Combat Sequence P 30 :
"In general, the player of the acting minion must decide each phase if
the minion will use a card or do something BEFORE the blocking minion.
If the acting minion foregoes this opportunity to act first, it cannot
reconsider and take action, except in direct response to the blocking
minion."
VYGER
Shane Hamish William Travis (sht...@duke.usask.ca) wrote:
: 1. Choose range (maneuvers - if none, then range is close): 2. Choose strike (weapon, special cards, etc. If none then strike is
: with hands. You must always declare a strike of some sort, and if
: you have no cards you wish to play, then strike is with hands.)
: 3. Resolve strike
: 3. Play cards that allow additional strikes
: 3a. Choose Range on additional strikes
: (default is close, regardless of range of initial strikes)
: 3b. Choose Strike on additional strikes
: (again, default is hands)
: 3c. Resolve additional strikes
: (parts 3a-c can *only* be done by whichever minions have additional strikes)
: 4. Press (if any)
You don't chose range for aditional strikes (3a). Range is determined
for the entire round, additional strikes or no.
Larrx...
la...@bu.edu (Larry Harriman) writes:
[ quoted text not captured ]
True: pg.30:
"The player of the acting minion must decide each phase if the minion will
use a card or do something before the blocking minion."
pg.31:
"If weapons were not used to maneuver, then, after range is determined, the
player with the acting minion first decides the manner in which the minion
is blocking [sic]. Then the blocking minion can respond by either using a
weapon or a strike card."
pg.32:
"You cannot opt not to have your minion strike a blow during a round and later
change your mind."
So, yes, you have to pick your strike first, as the acting minion.
No, you can't change the strike to a dodge when you find out the blocker
is going to do 12R Aggravated. Sorry.
sht...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Hamish William Travis) writes:
>Eric Robert Sylwester (hedg...@uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:>... a lot of wrong things on the order of strike declaration, which is
>sure to confuse many of the newer players.>: First, keep these three points in mind:
>: 1. There is no rule-given order for strike declaration.
>: 2. Manouvers are declared before strikes.
>: 3. If you change range using a weapon, you have to use the weapon
>: to strike.>2 and 3 are correct, but 1 is patently false. The order of combat is:>1. Choose range (maneuvers - if none, then range is close)
>2. Choose strike (weapon, special cards, etc. If none then strike is
> with hands. You must always declare a strike of some sort, and if
> you have no cards you wish to play, then strike is with hands.)
>3. Resolve strike
>3. Play cards that allow additional strikes
> 3a. Choose Range on additional strikes
> (default is close, regardless of range of initial strikes)
No. p.33:
"If you ... use a combat card that gives ... an additional strike, ... this
is resolved by having another Choose Strike and Resolve Strike phase. ... All
additional strikes take place at the same range."
All strikes in a given round are at the same range, be it close or long.
Each ROUND starts at close range, regardless of the range in he prior round.
> 3b. Choose Strike on additional strikes
> (again, default is hands)
> 3c. Resolve additional strikes
>(parts 3a-c can *only* be done by whichever minions have additional strikes)
>4. Press (if any)>: Because you should (in this case) ALWAYS let the opponent (i.e. the>: OFFENSIVE player) declare their strike first. After all, if they aren't
>: going to use that nasty Walk of flame, why bother with wasting your
>: Dodge? At least now you have the option. Wait until they say "I
>: declare/use no strike.">No no no!>When combat happens, the above steps are performed by both minions, but
>the _acting_ minion always has to declare what he is doing first.
That's what he said.
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:
: sht...@duke.usask.ca (Shane Hamish William Travis) writes:: >3. Play cards that allow additional strikes: > 3a. Choose Range on additional strikes
: > (default is close, regardless of range of initial strikes): No. p.33:
: "If you ... use a combat card that gives ... an additional strike, ... this
: is resolved by having another Choose Strike and Resolve Strike phase. ... All
: additional strikes take place at the same range."
Oops! I knew that - am not wure where my head was when I wrote that...
: >: Because you should (in this case) ALWAYS let the opponent (i.e. the: >: OFFENSIVE player) declare their strike first.: >No no no!: >When combat happens, the above steps are performed by both minions, but
: >the _acting_ minion always has to declare what he is doing first.: That's what he said.
Actually, it's not. In the rest of his post (which one of us deleted -
can't remember if it was me) he made it clear that 'offensive' = minion
who wants to use big nasty strike, and 'defensive' = minion who wants to
dodge/get out of the way. The book refers to them as acting and blocking
minions to avoid this problem, and I was informing him that the acting
minion always had to choose range/maneuvers/strike before the defending
minion.
[ quoted text not captured ]