V:EKN Lasombra Newsletter - July 2000

Official V:EKN Lasombra Newsletter for July 2000 By Michael Eichler - - - - - - - - - - - Story Time – Benito! Benito! Minion Call – A discussion of cards Deck – Lasombra Happy Families Deck Deck – Lasombra Multifunctional Deck Deck – Undead Missionaries => Lasombra Political Combat Deck - - - - - - - - - - - Benito! Benito! Angry thoughts flowed through Roberto’s head. Damn and curse Runako! His assaults on my holdings are growing bolder and more frequent. I detest having to shift my assets, but if I don’t I shall have to contend with Sikkim before I am ready to face that rotting lunatic. I suppose Caceras will have to endure another loss of stature for my sake. A thin grin crossed Roberto’s face as thoughts of where and how his minions would unknowing rally for his cause. At the station platform, the train rolled forward. Car 291 eased toward Phillip and stopped. The doors all along the train opened as one and allowed people to start pouring out onto the platform. Phillip stood silently among the throng of humanity waiting for Caldwell’s guest, one of his clansmen. Something caught Phillip’s attention, a movement of someone approaching the car’s door, a sense of familiarity and death all intermixed together. Phillip gazed up and smiled, Caldwell’s guest, his clansman stepped off the train and moved toward Phillip. The two came together and clasped hands. Then both laughed as they embraced each other in hugs that caused looks of concern when the sound of bones cracked. Parting, Phillip looked into the eyes of his brother, smiling. It is so good to see you again, Benito! How are you fairing these days? Or should I ask what have you been faring upon these days?, Phillip questioned with a laugh. I am doing quite well, my young brother. As for my fare of late, you know I am unable to relinquish that information., replied Benito with a smile. I have heard great things about you and your work for the Prince here. Tell me they are all true and both mother and I will be overjoyed. Phillip smiled, “I suppose it depends on what you’ve heard. But we can talk about that on the way to see Caldwell. Did you have any luggage?” Letisha had her eyes closed as she took in the scents of the night. Her prey was again leaving his place of business, locking up for the evening. He looked around with frightened eyes as he walked rapidly through the parking lot towards his car. Letisha smiled as she slowly moved through the shadows in the park across the street. Though she was assigned to this game of terror upon her prey, it had grown tiresome. She was finally given the permission to inflict this one final night of terror. She would then end this chase and finally move to a new territory. The car pulled out of the parking lot onto the street, as Letisha changed into her favored form of a silver timberwolf and gave chase. Roberto looked and listened through the shadow servant belonging to Caseras as it gave it’s report. “Lord, your childe, Juan, as delivered all his knowledge onto us. The individual responsible for the recent fires is a Toreador named Phillip. This Phillip works directly for the esteemed Archbishop, Caldwell.” The shade paused. “Yes”, inquired Caseras, “what other news do you have to report?” “Our spies have recently informed us that Phillip has recently met and escorted another Kindred to meet with Caldwell”, replied the shade. “This newcomer has a name I presume?” “Yes, ma’lord. The new arrival is named Benito. He is of the Toreador…” “I know the clan that spawned this frilly turd”, snapped Caceras, cutting off his servant’s report. “What in the name of the hell is Benito doing here? Here of all places! I simply can not imagine Benito leaving his cozy trappings in Los Angeles just for a social visit. Something more is happening here.” After a moment of silence,“Lord, I am again making a request as to your disposition of Juan?”, asked the shade. “He has provided all that he knows to us. Do you wish to release him?” “Release him?”, laughed Caceras, “I think not. You may do with him as you will. Destroy him, lose him to the eternal darkness or transform him, I do not care.” “It shall be as you wish, ma’lord”, whispered the shade as it moved through the veil of darkness and stopping to listen to new commands concerning Juan. Letisha laughed to herself as her prey’s car swerved around the corner into the residential area at a high rate of speed. Turning the corner at a run, Letisha slowed down and changed to her human form. Moving rapidly to the sidewalk she continued following the car as it came to a halt halfway down the street. It’s lights went out as the driver turned to see if he was being followed. Letisha became invisible by adopting her surroundings colors to herself and continued to close the distance. The driver, satisfied that he was no longer being “hounded” parked the car into his driveway and shut the engine off. Letisha slowly walked up to the side of the car and remained still. The door opened and the driver stepped out. As Letisha prepared for her final strike, a word floated through the air like a slight breeze, “No.” Letisha froze and searched the darkness for the source of her interruption. The man moved toward his house, oblivious to his close encounter with death and went inside. Letisha slowly circled as she opened her senses for the intruder that dared to interrupt her task. The whisper of a spear moving through the air gaining her notice just prior to impaling her where she stood. Silent laughter echoed through the trees before slowly fading away, leaving Letisha paralyzed for the approaching dawn. Caldwell was all smiles as Benito entered the room with Phillip. “Ah my liege,” Benito spoke as he bowed, “I am honored by your personal request for my presence. I have heard nothing but great things of you and your city.” “Benito, Benito. I am delighted you were able to accept my invitation. I am surprised that you were able to leave New Orleans on such short notice. Were there any difficulties during the trip?” Caldwell inquired. “None my lord.” “Good. Are your filled or do you have need of refreshment? I have excellent stocks and can supply you with whatever you desire.” “Maybe later, my lord. I have recently feed and feel not the need to do so again this soon.” Replyed Benito. “As you say, well on to business. I have asked you to here to provide assistance in dealing with a certain troublesome Kindred. I believe you have met him once or twice before. His name is Caceras.” “Caceras! Here? Ah my lord, you must have heard that I have held a special interest with Caceras from Phillip.” Smiled Benito. “What manner of assistance do your require, if I may inquire?” “I wish to have him discredited among his peers. Once that is accomplished, I can have him removed without any fallout from any of his sponsors.” Replied Caldwell. Pondering the situation, Benito finally turned. “I do believe you have me, sir.” Intoned Benito with a smile. “When would you require me to start my task?” “After you have rested, my friend and been introduced. Tomorrow I have a meeting with the elders of the city and there you shall be introduced. After that, you will have all the time for yourself. Is there anything you will require to assist you?” Caldwell asked. “Why, my lord, all I require are the same resources you would assign any dignitary within your domain.” Answered Benito. “My very thoughts, Benito. Tomorrow night you will be introduced as a new Bishop within the city.” Caldwell stated with a smile. Upon the completion of the interview, a small corner of the office stirred slightly as if something moved within. A moment later the small ripple of darkness faded from within the confines of the office. “Benito to be named and be used against me!” roared Caseras. “Caldwell has finally broken creed with me, at last! I can now finally rid myself of that loathsome prick of an Archbishop and place someone with the illusion of strength but pliable in their dealings with me.” “What I need is an for this little drama is someone who is willing to me a service while taking apart both prissy boy Benito and his ridiculousness Caldwell.” Brooded Caseras. “If we may be so bold, my lord. We know of one to whom you might consider…” whispered the darkness. “Speak, my pets.” Replied Caseras. “Whom do we know that would be willing to perform such a small service?” “Sophia…” “Sophia?! She has returned?” questioned Caseras. “She has maintained her duty as you specified and return only 2 nights ago.” The darkness answered. “Two nights? And she hasn’t come to visit...? Pay homage...? Contact her immediately and inform her that I wish to speak with her tonight!” commanded Caseras. “By your command…” - - - - - - - - - - - A discussion of cards… In the V:TES world of darkness, there are three methods to victory; Resource Denial (Bleeding) – Minion Denial (Combat) – Politics. The Lasombra have strong capabilities with the former two methods through their disciplines of Dominate and Potence. It is in the Political arena where they seem to be lacking. This would appear odd as the Lasombra are the supposed leaders of the Sabbat and therefore to be strong politically. The following card reveals just how the Lasombra are able to attain their political prowess, through the strength of arms! When you compare the differences between the two sects, Camarilla and Sabbat, the power of titled political power is clearly within the Camarilla camp. The Ventrue have the capability of fielding 21 points of voting power through titles alone, the most of any of the Camarilla clans. The Toreador come in a very close second with 20 titled points of political strength. The most the Lasombra can field at any one time is a paltry 11 points from their title vampires. But it is through the Lasombra’s special clan cards that the political realm opens for them. Three of the Lasombra’s clan cards relate politics as a staple of the Lasombra clan as their titles start with “Political…”. You have Political Hunting Ground, Political Struggle and Political Seizure. As the Hunting Ground is no different than any other Hunting Ground, it will not be discussing it. Our card today is Political Struggle. Political Struggle – Lasombra Required Action Card 0 Blood or Pool loss. Text – This is a +1 stealth action. (D) Put this card on a ready vampire. The acting vampire may enter combat with the vampire with this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. If the vampire with this card is burned or sent into torpor, the acting vampire gains X votes, where X is the number of non-contested votes the vampire with this card has; burn this card afterwards. This card has two basic utility functions. It can act as the Lasombra’s version of a Contract, enabling 1 particular Lasombra to target some other Methuselah’s minion for destruction. Or it can be used as a means to gain and consolidating political power for that minion. To use this card effectively, the Lasombra have to have some means of combat built into their deck. It can be through the use of Potence, Obtenebration, or even (unlikely) weapons. The Lasombra must then look for a target, preferably one with some title that confers political strength. This target can be either Camarilla or Sabbat, the Lasombra do not care. They are only wish to claim that which they believe is theirs by right. Through the use of Potence, the Lasombra can pound their victim into submission by way of either torpor or destruction. Through the use of Obtenebration, the Lasombra can just command their victim into torpor through the use of Entombment, possibly coupled with Arms of the Abyss to avoid damage. As most of the title holders within the game possess Presence, the usual method uses Potence and Immortal Grapples to ensure their targets do not try to run away from the beating they probably deserve. Either way, once the intended victim has been placed into the unready region (torpor) or the ashheap, your Lasombra will gain the victim’s titled political strength for their own, even if the victim is later taken from torpor. This augmented political strength can not be removed so long as the vampire remains out of torpor (according to LSJ). I am supposing there is some kind of errata/ruling on this loss of political strength as it is not stated within the card text. The only method of losing any of the political points accumulated by card text is if the title becomes contested on the table. The real strength of this card comes into play as this political strength build up is not displaced if the same Lasombra minion should use another Political Struggle against another titled minion. So, if Lisette Vizquel (a Lasombra Bishop) were to attack Andreas through a Political Struggle and place him into torpor. She would now possess 2 points of political power. If later that same game, she attacked Tatiana Romanova through a Political Struggle and torporized her. She would now possess 4 points of political power. One point for being a Bishop, one point from Andreas (Primogen) and two points from Tatiana (Prince). This power build up capability is a major boon to the Lasombra as they can now tilt the balance of power away from the Camarilla and toward themselves. Now the fun begins as you try to construct a political combat deck that enables both politics and combat to work without stepping on each other. Possibilities with this card can mirror some of the Brujah Political/Combat decks to help in carrying votes, combats, and both minion and pool blood gain. As the Lasombra do not have access to the one major method of gaining blood back into their pool to extend their life on the table as the Camarilla do. (That being the Camarilla’s “Water Bomb” method of Minion Tap coupled with 5th Tradition enabling another Minion Tap the next turn.) The Lasombra player must find other methods of achieving the same goal. One such method with the Political Struggle involve the use of Taste of Vitae, Minion Tap, and Anathema. These cards can provide maximum benefit for the Lasombra as the player can pull back blood from a large capacity minion via Minion Tap and then fill themselves back up while gaining political power and pool. First have an Anathema placed against a minion (preferably a titled vampire) your drained minion had played a Political Struggle on earlier. Minion Tap the minion who will be using the Political Struggle. The drained minion can then attack the victim vampire via the Political Struggle. Ensure the victim can not escape using Immortal Grapple (for Potence combat) or Thoughts Betrayed (for either Potence or Obtenebration combat), the drained minion can then send the victim vampire into torpor (hopefully). Any damage inflicted can then be recovered back to the Lasombra minion with a Taste of Vitae (Potence combat only). If the victim vampire is sent to torpor, the Political Struggle effect occurs, the Anathema provides blood pool and the Lasombra could be up to full capacity. What a deal! - - - - - - - - - - - Lasombra – Happy Families Deck from Legbiter. Here is the Lasombra HF deck as promised. I see what Tim means about the difficulty of constructing one - the Lasombra are AWFULLY good at all aspects of the game except for damage prevention, and I have a nasty feeling this deck may not play very well because it is trying to do too many things. Thank you Legbiter for your deck. I was glad to identify the missing HF deck within your collection. CRYPT [12 vamps] Angelica Alvaro Antonio Gratiano Lisette Aurora Guido Ramiro Ignacio Cameron Aaron Mitchell LIBRARY [70 cards] 15 DISCIPLINELESS Camarilla Vitae Slave 2 Conservative Agitation Dramatic Upheaval 4 Forced Awakening Leather jacket Political Flux Political Struggle Praxis Solomon Banishment Flak jacket .44 magnum 14 MASTERS Blood Doll Dominate Elysian Fields Giant's blood Golconda - Inner Peace Obtenebration Political HG Political Seizure Sudden reversal Pentex Loves You! Potence Power Structure 2 Minion Tap 13 DOMINATE 3 Conditioning 3 Govern the Unaligned 2 Deflection 2 Graverobbing 2 Slaughtering the Herd Thanks for the Donation 11 POTENCE 2 Burning Wrath 2 Mighty Grapple 5 Undead Strength Rampage Disarm 13 OBTENEBRATION Shroud of Night 2 Eyes of the Night 2 Entombment 3 Shadow Play Shade 4 Arms of the Abyss 4 OBFUSCATE Cloak the gathering Faceless Night Lost in Crowds Spying Mission - - - - - - - - - - - Lasombra Multi-Functional Deck (Politics/Combat/Bleed) This deck was designed around two different stimuli. One was the introduction of Legbiter and Coupe’s Happy Families web site and getting my head handed to me at the May Portsmouth tournament. Initial playtesting of the deck at home has been good. Several players within my group were convinced that I owned more Entombments as their frequency in appearance has been surprising high. The deck has a fairly smooth flow to it, so long as you utilize what is provided, so card cycling is hardly ever an issue. Forward momentum can be a problem at times as the deck is not dedicated to just that function. It does tend have good survivability, even against dedicated bleeders, so long as you don’t take yourself below 13 pool to pull up a new minion. Crypt Angelica – 10 / OBT DOM POT cel obf Alvaro – 9 / OBT POT dom pre 2x Antonio – 9 / OBT POT DOM thu 2x Gratiano – 8 / OBT DOM pot obf Aurora – 6 / OBT dom pot for Lisette – 6 / POT DOM pro 2x Guido – 5 / OBT dom obf Ignacio – 4 / pot dom obt Ramiro – 4 / dom obt vis Library Master Obtenebration Tribute to the Master Legendary Vampire Minion Tap Inbase Discotek, Frankfurt Elysian Fields The Hungry Coyote Political Hunting Ground KRGC News Radio 2x Dreams of the Sphinx 2x Power Structure 3x Blood Doll 2x Political Seizure Political Political Stranglehold Disputed Territory Crusade: Mexico City Crusade: Detroit Domain Challenge 2x Conservative Agitation 2x Consaguineous Boon 2x Kine Resources Contested Obtenebration 4x Eyes of the Night 4x Shadow Play 4x Arms of the Abyss 3x Shroud of Night 4x Entombment 2x Summon the Abyss Dominate 4x Deflection 4x Govern the Unaligned 2x Foreshadowing Destruction 2x Scouting Mission 2x Bonding 2x Conditioning Non-Discipline 4x Wake with Evening’s Freshness 2x The Embrace 2x Ritual of the Bitter Rose 2x Bloodbath 2x Creation Rites 2x Computer Hacking - - - - - - - - - - - "Undead Missionaries" Lasombra Political Combat Deck This deck is already posted out on the web. I found it unusual that out of all the Lasombra decks posted, this is the only one I could find containing the Political Struggle in numbers greater than 1. I haven’t heard from Michael Beer for some time now and am starting to wonder if he still plays or not. This is a 100 card deck. The strategy behind the deck, according to Michael, is get at least one Archbishop, Priscus or Cardinal out (to have some vote power). Then use flexible card play of bleeding, voting and directed attacks to survive and kill others. Sort of the early pre- runner of the Happy Families Lasombra deck. Michael Beer classified the deck as follows: Bleed Defense: few intercept, Rush Vote Defense: Debate, Rush, Intimidation, few intercept Combat Defense: Standard Potence Massive Strike Combat, enhanced by Obtenebration Crypt: 13 Minions Angelica – 10 / POT DOM OBT Antonio – 9 / POT DOM OBT Alvaro – 9 / POT dom OBT Gratiano – 8 / pot DOM OBT Aurora – 6 / pot dom OBT Lisette – 6 / POT DOM Guido – 5 / dom OBT Ramiro – 4 / dom obt Ignatio – 4 / pot dom obt Cameron – 3 / pot dom Aaron – 2 / obt Mitchell – 2 / pot obt Royce – 1 / dom Library: Master: 20 Cards 1x Succubus Club 1x The Rack 1x The Hungry Coyote 1x Pentex loves you 1x Communal Haven 2x Obtenebration 3x Potence 2x Blood Doll 3x Tribute to the Master 1x Tomb of Rameses III 1x The Rumor Mill 1x Elysian Fields 1x Political Hunting Ground 1x Power Structure Actions: 10 Cards 1x Fire Dance 3x Political Struggle 3x War Party 3x Creation Rites Political Actions: 15 Cards 2x Cardinal Benediction 1x Investitur 1x Political Stranglehold 1x Tithings 1x Rumors of Gehenna 2x Consangineous Boon 1x Ancient Influence 2x Sabbat Inquisitor 4x Sabbat Priest Action Modifier: 8 Cards 2x Shadow Play 2x Shroud of Night 1x The sleeping Mind 2x Bribes 1x Change of Target Equipment: 2 Cards 1x Submachine Gun 1x Gas powered Chain Saw Retainer: 5 Cards 3x Camarilla Vitae Slave 2x Shade Reactions: 10 Cards 3x Redirection 1x Cardinal Sin: Insubordination 4x Eyes of the Night 1x Obedience 1x Wake of E.F. Combat Cards: 30 Cards 4x Undead Strength 4x Thrown Gate 1x Entombment 1x Shadow Step 5x Increased Strength 5x Arms of the Abyss 2x Fractured Armament 2x Pushing the Limit 2x Sacrament of Carnage 2x Torn Signpost 2x Immortal Grapple ------------ 100 Cards -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

> Political Struggle - Lasombra Required Action Card > 0 Blood or Pool loss. > Text - This is a +1 stealth action. > (D) Put this card on a ready vampire. The acting vampire may enter > combat with the vampire with this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. If > the vampire with this card is burned or sent into torpor, the acting > vampire gains X votes, where X is the number of non-contested votes the > vampire with this card has; burn this card afterwards. The reason I really dislike using this card is that it requires 2 turns in order to get anything from it - the first putting the card on the vamp and the second getting into combat with it. Anything can happen during that turn, including getting ousted depending on when during the game it is played. I'd much rather just use the card slot for a BR or Haven. If you pound the opposing titled vamp into torpor (or burn), then why would you need the extra votes if there are no opposing voters on the table? With a combat deck, you need speed. That is something this card just doesn't provide. > Lasombra will gain the victim's titled political strength for their > own, even if the victim is later taken from torpor. This augmented > political strength can not be removed so long as the vampire remains > out of torpor (according to LSJ). The only errata/ruling/clarification I could find on this card is: Political Struggle [SAB] - Action (Las) The acting vampire gains X votes if the vampire with this card is burned, no matter how that vampire is burned (including, for example, if his controller is ousted). [LSJ 19990119] which is pretty interesting... As far as I know, there is no way to remove the votes gained through political struggle. Also, I believe (but am not entirely certain) that you get those votes even if the title later becomes contested. I believe that it is just that the title has to be uncontested at the time you send the opposing vamp to torpor. If I'm wrong, I'm sure LSJ will correct me. > the same goal. One such method with the Political Struggle involve the > use of Taste of Vitae, Minion Tap, and Anathema. These cards can > provide maximum benefit for the Lasombra as the player can pull back > blood from a large capacity minion via Minion Tap and then fill > themselves back up while gaining political power and pool. First have > an Anathema placed against a minion (preferably a titled vampire) your Except that "Anathema" can only be called by a Prince or Justicar, something the Lasombra are lacking. Sorrow --- I keep telling them that I think they're out to get me. They ask me if I feel remose and I answer, "Why of course! There's so much more I could have done if they'd let me!" So it's Rorschach and Prozac and everything is groovy

In article <gp175.1381$I76....@monger.newsread.com>, "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote: > > Political Struggle - Lasombra Required Action Card > > 0 Blood or Pool loss. > > Text - This is a +1 stealth action. > > (D) Put this card on a ready vampire. The acting vampire may enter > > combat with the vampire with this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. If > > the vampire with this card is burned or sent into torpor, the acting > > vampire gains X votes, where X is the number of non-contested votes the > > vampire with this card has; burn this card afterwards. > > The reason I really dislike using this card is that it requires 2 > turns in order to get anything from it - the first putting the card > on the vamp and the second getting into combat with it. Anything > can happen during that turn, including getting ousted depending > on when during the game it is played. I'd much rather just use > the card slot for a BR or Haven. Yes, you are correct that the card does take a turn to set up. But how you use it, be it intimidation or just a plain "slap with the iron gauntlet" to let everyone know what is on your mind can be used to your advantage. Is it slow? Yes, when you compare it to Bum's Rush, Ambush, or Haven Uncovered. However, none of the above cards will convey voting power to your minion. If you pound the opposing titled > vamp into torpor (or burn), then why would you need the extra > votes if there are no opposing voters on the table? It depends upon how many voters or anti-voters you have on the table. Within my group, you occasionally see a deck played that doesn't possess any title holders, but the norm is to have a titled minion for yourself to provide some measure of permanent vote offense/defense. With a > combat deck, you need speed. That is something this card > just doesn't provide. > Yes, with a pure combat deck you need speed. Here I am looking at a deck that is joint combat and political. Is it easy? No. Is it possible? Yes. > > Lasombra will gain the victim's titled political strength for their > > own, even if the victim is later taken from torpor. This augmented > > political strength can not be removed so long as the vampire remains > > out of torpor (according to LSJ). > > The only errata/ruling/clarification I could find on this card is: > > Political Struggle [SAB] - Action (Las) > The acting vampire gains X votes if the vampire with this card is burned, > no matter how that vampire is burned (including, for example, if his > controller is ousted). [LSJ 19990119] > This errated extra is definitely interesting! If wanted, you could just place these little "bad boys" out on title holders and as/if the player is removed from the game, you gain their title voting strength. Or at least that is how I am reading the errata. > which is pretty interesting... > As far as I know, there is no way to remove the votes gained through > political struggle. Also, I believe (but am not entirely certain) that you > get those votes even if the title later becomes contested. I believe that > it is just that the title has to be uncontested at the time you send the > opposing vamp to torpor. > If I'm wrong, I'm sure LSJ will correct me. > My understanding of the contested title aspect goes like this... I Political Struggle Gilbert Duane and place him into torpor. My minion now has gained 2 points of voting power from Gilbert. My minion will retain this voting power unless two things occur. 1) My minion goes to torpor, at which time my minion losses all rights to the gained voting power. 2) If Gilbert is contested or the title of Prince of Miami is contested, then my minion will automatically lose the voting power gained from Gilbert Duane. > > the same goal. One such method with the Political Struggle involve the > > use of Taste of Vitae, Minion Tap, and Anathema. These cards can > > provide maximum benefit for the Lasombra as the player can pull back > > blood from a large capacity minion via Minion Tap and then fill > > themselves back up while gaining political power and pool. First have > > an Anathema placed against a minion (preferably a titled vampire) your > > Except that "Anathema" can only be called by a Prince or Justicar, > something the Lasombra are lacking. > Right you are. Thank heavens for Volker (5), Rake (6) and (especially) Murat (7)(who works well with Gratiano). Michael Eichler [ quoted text not captured ]

By the way, I am glad to know that someone out there does read these things. :) Thanks for your input/response, Sorrow. Michael Eichler [ quoted text not captured ]

> Possibilities with this card can mirror some of the Brujah > Political/Combat decks to help in carrying votes, combats, and both > minion and pool blood gain. > > As the Lasombra do not have access to the one major method of gaining > blood back into their pool to extend their life on the table as the > Camarilla do. (That being the Camarilla’s “Water Bomb” method of > Minion Tap coupled with 5th Tradition enabling another Minion Tap the > next turn.) The Lasombra player must find other methods of achieving > the same goal. One such method with the Political Struggle involve the > use of Taste of Vitae, Minion Tap, and Anathema. Excellent newsletter! I have one question though. How does the Lasombra call a Anathema in a game as it is a Prince/Justicar card? Are you referring to intermixing the Brujah Princes into your Lasombra deck, and if you are going to do that you could mix 5th Traditions in as well? Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8jt221$j3s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > > > Possibilities with this card can mirror some of the Brujah > > Political/Combat decks to help in carrying votes, combats, and both > > minion and pool blood gain. > > > > As the Lasombra do not have access to the one major method of gaining > > blood back into their pool to extend their life on the table as the > > Camarilla do. (That being the Camarilla’s “Water Bomb” method of > > Minion Tap coupled with 5th Tradition enabling another Minion Tap the > > next turn.) The Lasombra player must find other methods of achieving > > the same goal. One such method with the Political Struggle involve > the > > use of Taste of Vitae, Minion Tap, and Anathema. > > Excellent newsletter! I have one question though. How does the Lasombra > call a Anathema in a game as it is a Prince/Justicar card? Are you > referring to intermixing the Brujah Princes into your Lasombra deck, and > if you are going to do that you could mix 5th Traditions in as well? > Yes I am. I currently have a deck that works with both the low point Princes and the Lasombra. There are only 2 5ths in the deck as it is more sided on the combat/political framework. Does it work... but it isn't something I would ever bet on. It tends to work 50% of the time when I can pull any Princes that are not already showing. :) I have worked the combo without the Anathema and it does flow better, however, I tend to have a devil of a time getting the Minion Taps afterward to cycle the blood gain to my pool afterward. Thanks for your reply/comments. Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein [ quoted text not captured ]

> > on when during the game it is played. I'd much rather just use > > the card slot for a BR or Haven. > Yes, you are correct that the card does take a turn to set up. But how > you use it, be it intimidation or just a plain "slap with the iron > gauntlet" to let everyone know what is on your mind can be used to your > advantage. If it were me, I'd be completely unfazed by it. If you are a combat deck and I'm not, the odds of you being able to pound me into the ground anyway would be pretty good. Sure, I'll have some combat defense, but against the Lasombra, Fortitude would be the only thing that would work. Plus, if there are no titles on the table, or if the titles are cross table, the card slot is effectively wasted. I don't see how any psychological advantage can be gained from this card. > Is it slow? Yes, when you compare it to Bum's Rush, Ambush, or > Haven Uncovered. However, none of the above cards will convey > voting power to your minion. So. Put a vamp with 2 votes into torpor and that vamp now has 0 votes. And in doing this the first time, the other voters on the table will fall in line. "Fine, you want to vote against my PA... Well, with my next action, I'll BR Gilbert there and teach him where his loyalties should truly lie". Once you put Gilbert into torpor, the other voters will be afraid that they will be next if they vote otherwise. This kind of immediacy is much better in terms of table and psychological advantage. It is certainly better than "Ok, fine, the PA fails. Well, with my next action, I'll Political Struggle on Gilbert and toast him my next turn." and in the mean time, the opposing meth MT's him or does whatever to minimize his loss. Hell, she could even put a Secure Haven on him and make your Political Struggle 100% use- less. >> If you pound the opposing titled vamp into torpor (or burn), then >> why would you need the extra votes if there are no opposing voters >> on the table? > It depends upon how many voters or anti-voters you have on the table. Big deal. The others will generally fall in line. And if they don't, it'll only take a few actions to make sure you have vote dominance. > > With a combat deck, you need speed. That is something this card > > just doesn't provide. > Yes, with a pure combat deck you need speed. Here I am looking at a > deck that is joint combat and political. Is it easy? No. Is it possible? > Yes. Regardless of whether it is pure combat or not, you are going to need the speed. This need is made greater in that it is a dual purpose deck. If someone else has vote lock, then all the votes you have clogging your hand are just going to sit there (or go wasted if you go ahead and call them, not to mention the action to call it) while you wait to be able to actually use Political Struggle. You *need* to put those voters down _now_ in order for your deck to function well. > This errated extra is definitely interesting! If wanted, you could > just place these little "bad boys" out on title holders and as/if the > player is removed from the game, you gain their title voting strength. > Or at least that is how I am reading the errata. Yes, that is what the errata means. However, doing this is too slow and unreliable. By the time a meth gets ousted, especially if they have voters, you should already have vote dominance (whether by perm votes or intimidation). > My understanding of the contested title aspect goes like this... > I Political Struggle Gilbert Duane and place him into torpor. My > minion now has gained 2 points of voting power from Gilbert. My minion > will retain this voting power unless two things occur. 1) My minion > goes to torpor, at which time my minion losses all rights to the gained > voting power. But where does it say this on the card? Or in the errata? > 2) If Gilbert is contested or the title of Prince of Miami is contested, > then my minion will automatically lose the voting power gained from > Gilbert Duane. Again, where does it say this in the card? Or in the errata. From the card's text: "card as a +1 stealth (D) action. If the vampire with this card is burned or sent into torpor, the acting vampire gains X votes, where X is the number of non-contested votes the vampire with this card has; burn this card afterwards." Your Lasombra gains the number of votes and the card is burnt. Since the card is burnt, there is no "remembering" who the card was played on and/or how many votes they have or had. And it is referring to the number of non-contested voteds the vamp has at the time the vamp goes to torpor. Again, because the card is burnt and there is no "remembering state". Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. LSJ? > Right you are. Thank heavens for Volker (5), Rake (6) and > (especially) Murat (7)(who works well with Gratiano). Except that in order to guarantee that you will be able to call it, you'll have to load up on them in your crypt. Plus, Volker and Rake have only 1 discipline in common with the Lasombra. It's going to suck when/if they get into combat and your opponent maneuvers away and you can't catch them because neither can use Shadow Step. At least you can put in a few "Behind You!"s for Murat and the Lasombra who have Obt. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <h9G85.2653$I76.1...@monger.newsread.com>, "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote: > > > on when during the game it is played. I'd much rather just use > > > the card slot for a BR or Haven. > > Yes, you are correct that the card does take a turn to set up. But how > > you use it, be it intimidation or just a plain "slap with the iron > > gauntlet" to let everyone know what is on your mind can be used to your > > advantage. > > If it were me, I'd be completely unfazed by it. If you are a combat > deck and I'm not, the odds of you being able to pound me into the > ground anyway would be pretty good. Sure, I'll have some combat > defense, but against the Lasombra, Fortitude would be the only thing > that would work. Plus, if there are no titles on the table, or if the > titles are cross table, the card slot is effectively wasted. > I don't see how any psychological advantage can be gained from this > card. > Hello Sorrow, Each person is different on how they will react to such an action. I do know that I have never been too fond of receiving a Contract on any of my minions and that is a variant of a Contract. Only it is for the Lasombra. I have used the card in conjuction with Rush's and a Haven to help stomp my prey while also seeking out voters to "help" ensure I can gain or maintain political dominance on the table for either votes I may have or for political defense. Does it work all the time? No. But, in highlighting the card, this is what it does for Lasombra. > > Is it slow? Yes, when you compare it to Bum's Rush, Ambush, or > > Haven Uncovered. However, none of the above cards will convey > > voting power to your minion. > > So. Put a vamp with 2 votes into torpor and that vamp now has 0 > votes. And in doing this the first time, the other voters on the table > will fall in line. "Fine, you want to vote against my PA... Well, with > my next action, I'll BR Gilbert there and teach him where his loyalties > should truly lie". Once you put Gilbert into torpor, the other voters > will be afraid that they will be next if they vote otherwise. This kind > of immediacy is much better in terms of table and psychological > advantage. It is certainly better than "Ok, fine, the PA fails. Well, > with my next action, I'll Political Struggle on Gilbert and toast him > my next turn." and in the mean time, the opposing meth MT's him > or does whatever to minimize his loss. Hell, she could even put a > Secure Haven on him and make your Political Struggle 100% use- > less. > Secure Haven would neutralize the card, yes. It certainly is nice to know that it is unique while the Political Struggles are not. If it happens it happens. I rarely see any Secure Havens played ever. The restriction to (D) works both ways so it is two edged sword that many people seem to shy away from. Either that, or people just have poor luck at pulling it out and using. [ quoted text not captured ] Come on Sorrow, I've run vote favors across the table in the past to help me cycle political cards out of my hand and I'm sure you have as well. Whether the table is heavy on voters and creates a hardship on starting out only gives me more reason to use this card. If I have a speed bleeder on my case then I would just have to try and redirect my efforts backward to minimize my losses. But no card does it all and no deck either. Again, I am only highlighting the card for a particular strategy that the Lasombra can use. This card is kick-ass in a heavy political environment. You can take down people and pick up their votes to tilt the political balance of power into your favor faster than just knocking them down into torpor. So using Political Struggle on a Prince and knocking it into torpor tilts the balance of political power by 4 points in your favor until that prince is moved back into the ready area. And unless the title becomes contested later (providing you allow the other minion to survive), then you only lose those points of political power. [ quoted text not captured ] I never said mixing clans was easy. In this case, all I am looking for is just 1 Prince to do my few special cards. Murat has the added benefit of having Obfuscate, otherwise I wouldn't have looked at him. But they all have Potence which is what I would need to fight if I decide to use them in that capacity. As for how the card works, I was mistaken on one part. With my email questioning LSJ on the card, the votes gained are only lost when the Lasombra who gained them is sent to the ash heap. Below is a copy of the email: Hello LSJ, > > As the Deja.com is down for brand new posts, I have a question for you > directly rather than via the newsgroup. I am going to keep trying to post > this question though. > > Political Struggle. > > The card acts like a contract for the Lasombra, however, it provides a > benefit by giving the vote capability from the "downed" victim to the > Lasombra minion for personal use. How long does the "taken vote power" > last? For as long as the Lasombra stays out of the ash heap. > The card does not give a time or usage limit, so I am inclined to > believe that it is a permanent effect for the chosen Lasombra minion. It > this correct? Yes. > Additionally, if the effect is permanent as the card leads me to believe, > then is it cumulative? Yes. > Again the card does not specify. "gains" > So for example: > A Lasombra minion takes down a Prince and gains the Prince's 2 vote > capability. Later it also takes down an Inner Circle member and gains it's > vote capability of 4. From what I can see, the Lasombra would have a > cumulative vote capability of 6. Yes, It would take time but I don't see > anything from the card that would prevent it from occurring. That looks legal. > As for the last sentence on the card, " If the vampire with this card is > burned or sent into torpor, the acting vampire gains X votes, where X is the > number of non-contested votes the vampire with this card has; burn this card > afterwards.", the card would be burned afterward to stop the Lasombra from > gaining the +1 Stealth (D) attack ability as the card has provided it's > function: burning or torporizing it's victim with the side effect of giving > X non-contested votes to the Lasombra. (whew) Yep. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein -- [ quoted text not captured ]

> Each person is different on how they will react to such an action. I > do know that I have never been too fond of receiving a Contract on any > of my minions and that is a variant of a Contract. Only it is for the > Lasombra. True. But I am even less fazed by a Contract, especially if I'm using Cel or Ani. Don't let them go to long and the Assamites, in most cases, can do squat. But with the Lasombra, they can Shadow Step/IG you and unless you've got For, you're screwed. But unless you've got lots of combat defense, you're pretty screwed against a combat deck, anyway. > But, in highlighting the card, this is what it does for Lasombra. I understand. But I'm highlighting why I think this card is, for the most part, a total waste. > Secure Haven would neutralize the card, yes. It certainly is nice to > know that it is unique while the Political Struggles are not. This is true. But if you are trying to be able to get into combat when you need to, you're generally running 8-12 Rush cards and maybe 3 or 4 Havens. But since you are a combat/political deck, you cannot afford that many slots. Because of that, you can't put that many PS cards in your deck. This in turn means that you won't be drawing it all that often and when you do, even 1 Secure Haven can seriously rain on your parade. > If it happens it happens. I rarely see any Secure Havens played ever. I see them *alot*. It's really good to protect your big/vital vamp against that mean and nasty combat deck. > The restriction to (D) works both ways so it is two edged sword that > many people seem to shy away from. First, cards like 5th are not directed actions against the vamp. Second, I cannot think of one directed action that you'd want to take against one of your own vamps. Third, actions directed at your or your own vamps are undirected. I don't see the 2 edged sword. > Come on Sorrow, I've run vote favors across the table in the past to > help me cycle political cards out of my hand and I'm sure you have as > well. I have. But since the new vote pushing rules, it has been really hard to play a political deck unless you can *guarantee* yourself vote dominance or that your votes will pass *every time*. People here tend to not like to deal with political decks unless they gain something fairly significant out of the deal. With being able to _easily_ shut down a political deck, where's the incentive the let them gain a foothold when they're just going to be able to pass anything with impunity if you give them that foothold. > Whether the table is heavy on voters and creates a hardship on > starting out only gives me more reason to use this card. True. But again, just BR/Ambush them into torpor. The Lasombra don't have alot of smallish vamps that are worthwhile. Because of that, every action needs to count. So while you taking 2 turns and 2 actions to put the PS on the vamp then to put them into torpor, I am Rushing the vamp this turn and putting them into torpor and using that same vamp on my next turn to call a KRC. > speed bleeder on my case then I would just have to try and redirect my > efforts backward to minimize my losses. But no card does it all and no > deck either. True, but... > Again, I am only highlighting the card for a particular strategy that the > Lasombra can use. ...I'm just trying to show why this is a card that isn't worthwhile to use. > This card is kick-ass in a heavy political environment. Agreed. > the ready area. And unless the title becomes contested later > (providing you allow the other minion to survive), then you only lose > those points of political power. Again, please tell me where it says that you lose the votes if the titled vamp has their title contested *after* you've already gained the number of votes they had and burned the card. > As for how the card works, I was mistaken on one part. With my email > questioning LSJ on the card, the votes gained are only lost when the > Lasombra who gained them is sent to the ash heap. Ok, much better. :) Sorrow --- I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am anymore |-------------------------------- I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...? anymore | you never seen anyone try to I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon ------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <GpK85.2706$I76.1...@monger.newsread.com>, "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote: > > Each person is different on how they will react to such an action. I > > do know that I have never been too fond of receiving a Contract on any > > of my minions and that is a variant of a Contract. Only it is for the > > Lasombra. > > True. But I am even less fazed by a Contract, especially if I'm > using Cel or Ani. Don't let them go to long and the Assamites, > in most cases, can do squat. But with the Lasombra, they can > Shadow Step/IG you and unless you've got For, you're screwed. > But unless you've got lots of combat defense, you're pretty > screwed against a combat deck, anyway. > > > But, in highlighting the card, this is what it does for Lasombra. > > I understand. But I'm highlighting why I think this card is, for > the most part, a total waste. > It has it's uses. True on it not being as fast and direct as a Bum's Rush or Ambush, but it does allow you to set up for a combat prior to actually initiating it, cycling the card from your hand and building up for your most effective combo. The one thing I have seen here where I am at, is bleeders are everywhere, but so is politics. Combat has it's role, but not to the same degree as politics. I see more political/combat decks (both offensive and defensive) here than I ever saw in the States. Which is odd, at least to me. A total waste? Nah. I like the card for it functional capability, especially if I can target a deck that doesn't appear to have any S:CE capability (otherwise, I have to neutralize with Thoughts Betrayed and that means an expensive combo) so I can play Arms of the Abyss and Entombment, instant torpor and instant vote gain. > > Secure Haven would neutralize the card, yes. It certainly is nice to > > know that it is unique while the Political Struggles are not. > > This is true. But if you are trying to be able to get into combat when > you need to, you're generally running 8-12 Rush cards and maybe 3 > or 4 Havens. But since you are a combat/political deck, you cannot > afford that many slots. Because of that, you can't put that many PS > cards in your deck. This in turn means that you won't be drawing it > all that often and when you do, even 1 Secure Haven can seriously > rain on your parade. > > > If it happens it happens. I rarely see any Secure Havens played ever. > > I see them *alot*. It's really good to protect your big/vital vamp > against that mean and nasty combat deck. > > > The restriction to (D) works both ways so it is two edged sword that > > many people seem to shy away from. > > First, cards like 5th are not directed actions against the vamp. Second, > I cannot think of one directed action that you'd want to take against one > of your own vamps. Third, actions directed at your or your own vamps > are undirected. > I don't see the 2 edged sword. > Then my group and I have been playing it incorrectly. I will make inquires on it. > > Come on Sorrow, I've run vote favors across the table in the past to > > help me cycle political cards out of my hand and I'm sure you have as > > well. > > I have. But since the new vote pushing rules, it has been really hard > to play a political deck unless you can *guarantee* yourself vote > dominance or that your votes will pass *every time*. People here > tend to not like to deal with political decks unless they gain something > fairly significant out of the deal. With being able to _easily_ shut down > a political deck, where's the incentive the let them gain a foothold when > they're just going to be able to pass anything with impunity if you give > them that foothold. > > > Whether the table is heavy on voters and creates a hardship on > > starting out only gives me more reason to use this card. > > True. But again, just BR/Ambush them into torpor. The Lasombra > don't have alot of smallish vamps that are worthwhile. Because of > that, every action needs to count. So while you taking 2 turns and > 2 actions to put the PS on the vamp then to put them into torpor, I > am Rushing the vamp this turn and putting them into torpor and using > that same vamp on my next turn to call a KRC. > > > speed bleeder on my case then I would just have to try and redirect my > > efforts backward to minimize my losses. But no card does it all and no > > deck either. > > True, but... > > > Again, I am only highlighting the card for a particular strategy that the > > Lasombra can use. > > ...I'm just trying to show why this is a card that isn't worthwhile to use. > Except for cards that have been accepted as wallpaper, I tend to believe the rest of the cards has uses. Some are more limited than others, but they still have uses in particular environments and deck strategies. Example: I never really saw too much use for the "Regaining the Upper Hand" political card until someone used it with the Followers of Set to quickly gain control of their prey's minions with Form of Corruptions. It was a different twist to the card and it works quite well when it is not expected. Otherwise, it can get shut down either through intercept or the political side. > > This card is kick-ass in a heavy political environment. > > Agreed. > > > the ready area. And unless the title becomes contested later > > (providing you allow the other minion to survive), then you only lose > > those points of political power. > > Again, please tell me where it says that you lose the votes if the > titled vamp has their title contested *after* you've already gained > the number of votes they had and burned the card. > > > As for how the card works, I was mistaken on one part. With my email > > questioning LSJ on the card, the votes gained are only lost when the > > Lasombra who gained them is sent to the ash heap. > > Ok, much better. :) > No problem. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] There is no errata on Political Struggle - it plays as printed. The acting vampire gains votes when the vitcim is burned (even via the ousting of his controller) or sent to torpor. There is no mechanism stated for losing the votes (although the votes cannot be cast from torpor, as always). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]