Now, it might just be me, but as I was flicking through my cards while
making an Assamite deck for a friend for casual play, I paid attention
to the duel discipline combat card 'Shadow Feint' for the first time,
then became very puzzled;
Shadow Feint (1 blood) Combat card
Only usable before range is determined
obf cel: This vampire gets First Strike this round
OBF CEL: as above, and this vampires strikes cannot be dodged this
round.
Now, I could be wrong, because trust me I'm famous for it, but as I
understood it, the procedure for Resolving first strike strikes was
Elect Strikes:Resolve First Strike Strikes:Resolve Other Strikes.
Now, I would assume that if I have first strike, and say my Taste of
Death for 2 Aggravated is on its way to sending my opponent to torpor,
he is unlikely to be dodging any time soon; o put it in a less flowery
way - it was my understanding that strikes with First Strike could not
be dodged anyway, simply because the strike has already resolved
before the dodge does?
Am I wrong? Or is the superior ability just utterly pointless?
Ricky Van Hammond
> Am I wrong? Or is the superior ability just utterly pointless?
You're wrong. It's a very good card.
The first strike does resolve before the Dodge. However, by
definition, Dodge protects against the effects of the opposing
minion's strike [6.4.5]. So sure, you are striking agg for first
strike but the dodging minion simply goes "Nanny nanny boo
boo, your strike didn't do *squat*!!".
Shadow Feint makes it so that the only thing to save the
opposing minion from taking that agg damage is S:CE.
Sorrow
---
"I'll be watching the news. If anything is vandalized or explodes
or catches on fire, 'X' is going to equal me kicking your ass!"
- Red Forman
[ quoted text not captured ]
See "dodge" in the rulebook, or see "first strike" in the rulebook.
Both sections indicate that dodge beats first strike.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"Rich H." <five_mi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c5310562.02061...@posting.google.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
[6.4.5]
First Strike: A strike done with first strike is resolved before a normal
strike. Thus, if the opposing minion is burned or sent to torpor by a strike
done with first strike, his strike will not be resolved at all. If the
opposing minion was striking with a weapon that is stolen or destroyed with
first strike, then the opposing minion simply loses his strike altogether.
If both minions strike with first strike, then the strikes are resolved
simultaneously. A strike done with first strike will still not resolve
before a combat ends effect (which always resolves first), and a dodge still
cancels the effects of a strike done with first strike (see below).
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<ugcu169...@news.supernews.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Cheers - I once more fully accept my total ignorance :)
Ricky van Hammond
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3D06698F...@white-wolf.com...
> "Rich H." wrote:
> >
> > Now, it might just be me, but as I was flicking through my cards while
> > making an Assamite deck for a friend for casual play, I paid attention
> > to the duel discipline combat card 'Shadow Feint' for the first time,
> > then became very puzzled;
> >
> > Shadow Feint (1 blood) Combat card
> > Only usable before range is determined
> > obf cel: This vampire gets First Strike this round
> > OBF CEL: as above, and this vampires strikes cannot be dodged this
> > round.
> >
> > Now, I could be wrong, because trust me I'm famous for it, but as I
> > understood it, the procedure for Resolving first strike strikes was
> > Elect Strikes:Resolve First Strike Strikes:Resolve Other Strikes.
> > Now, I would assume that if I have first strike, and say my Taste of
> > Death for 2 Aggravated is on its way to sending my opponent to torpor,
> > he is unlikely to be dodging any time soon; o put it in a less flowery
> > way - it was my understanding that strikes with First Strike could not
> > be dodged anyway, simply because the strike has already resolved
> > before the dodge does?
> >
> > Am I wrong? Or is the superior ability just utterly pointless?
>
> See "dodge" in the rulebook, or see "first strike" in the rulebook.
> Both sections indicate that dodge beats first strike.
Well, that leaves First Strike almost useless. You can't use it against
dodging and you can't use it against Combat Ends. It's only usefull if you
send the opposing vampire into torpor, so he can't beat you up. Combat ends
is just to powerfull the only way to deal with it is Immortal grapple and
Lapse. That's just two cards! And you need potence or (some bloodline
bullshit) too. I'm sick and tired off decks with 30 majestys and melt cards.
White Wolf better do something about it quick.
Combat Ends is broken!
-Martin
On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:07:23 GMT, "Martin Bruset Solberg"
<tha...@online.no> whined:
>Well, that leaves First Strike almost useless. You can't use it against
>dodging and you can't use it against Combat Ends.
Correct.
Its function is to protect you from opposing minion's offensive
strikes. It is not an uber-strike that gets through all (or any)
defenses.
> It's only usefull if you
>send the opposing vampire into torpor, so he can't beat you up. Combat ends
>is just to powerfull the only way to deal with it is Immortal grapple and
>Lapse. That's just two cards!
And Telepathic Tracking.
And Thoughts Betrayed.
And Blessing of Chaos.
And Perfect Clarity.
And Dog Pack.
And Mind of a Child.
> And you need potence or (some bloodline
>bullshit) too.
No, you don't.
> I'm sick and tired off decks with 30 majestys and melt cards.
So?
>White Wolf better do something about it quick.
Why?
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
http://www.TheLasombra.com
"Martin Bruset Solberg" <tha...@online.no> wrote in message
news:LXFN8.1021$yj7....@news4.ulv.nextra.no...
[snip]
> Combat Ends is broken!
In addition to all the cards mentioned, Psyche works pretty well too.
As a suggestion, if you're having trouble with decks with lots of S:CE in them,
play something that doesn't get into combat, and never blocks. If they can't
use the cards, they will tend to jam up their hands.
Xian
"Martin Bruset Solberg" <tha...@online.no> wrote in message
news:LXFN8.1021$yj7....@news4.ulv.nextra.no...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Then try looking at the cards again. The following all deal just fine with
S:CE
Telepathic Tracking (AUS)
Thoughts Betrayed (DOM)
Blessing of Chaos (DEM)
Perfect Clarity (THA)
Dog Pack (Gangrel)
Mind of a Child (dem)
Hidden Lurker (obf)
Fast Reaction (aus)
Co-ordinate Attacks (san)
Psyche! (CEL)
Rotschreck
> Combat Ends is broken!
Ah, the first cry of the incompetent.
> -Martin
>
>
>
"Martin Bruset Solberg" <tha...@online.no> wrote in message news:<LXFN8.1021$yj7....@news4.ulv.nextra.no>...
> Combat Ends is broken!
> -Martin
...*sigh* Here we go again :-) Martin, you might want to search
Google on your own comment to see the background debate that has
already discussed this topic. I am squarely in the camp of those who
feel that the game would degenerate into too much combat if S:CE
weren't readily available... But on to the summary of debate;
From the Excellent FOCS (Frequently Offered Clever Suggesitions):
Entry number 6 of what are originally thought to be "Really Good Ideas
(tm)"
Regards
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
6.) First Strike should beat Dodge and/or Strike: Combat Ends.
Suggestion:
First Strike should work like "First Strike" from Magic: The
Gathering.
You should not be able to Dodge and/or End Combat before the a strike
done with First Strike is resolved.
Response:
Richard Garfield, the designer of both games, clearly disagrees with
this position. See the Jyhad rulebook, section 15.3 and the discussion
of special combat effects. Dodge always negates the effect of the
opponent's strike. Strike: Combat Ends always ends combat before any
damage is dealt or any strike's effects take place.
The Current Rules Team / Design Team, has re-emphasized this and made
it even more explicit in the Sabbat War/Final Nights rulebooks.
See section 6.4.5 Strike Effects in either rulebook for the following
quotes:
"A dodge protects even from the effects of a strike done with first
strike."
"[Combat Ends] is always the first strike to resolve, even before a
strike done with first strike, and ends combat before other strikes
can
be resolved or any damage dealt."
and finally:
"A strike done with first strike will still not resolve before a
combat
ends effect (which always resolves first), and a dodge still cancels
the
effects of a strike done with first strike."
And now, for a real world scenario / explanation from Reyda:
two people fight.
One punches faster than the other.
Both attempt to strike simultaneously.
The fastest puncher hit the other first. The second blow lands on him
normally though.
Now...
two people fight.
One punches faster than the other.
the fast puncher attempts to strike, while the other runs away.
no matter how fast is the punch, it will hit thin air.
"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message news:<ae7dum$4hpvm$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de>...
> "Martin Bruset Solberg" <tha...@online.no> wrote in message
> news:LXFN8.1021$yj7....@news4.ulv.nextra.no...
> [snip]
> > Combat Ends is broken!
>
> In addition to all the cards mentioned, Psyche works pretty well too.
>
Hey, don't forget Hidden Lurker and Fast Reactions!
By the way, Hidden Lurker followed by Trap and Withering at superior
means that you do whatever you want to a S:CE using vampire for at
least 3 (probably more) rounds. Use Compress for a final blow and you
have just burned your problem childe away!
thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<3d07342...@text.giganews.com>...
> On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:07:23 GMT, "Martin Bruset Solberg"
> <tha...@online.no> whined:> > Combat ends
> >is just to powerfull the only way to deal with it is Immortal grapple and
> >Lapse. That's just two cards!
>
> And Telepathic Tracking.
> And Thoughts Betrayed.
> And Blessing of Chaos.
> And Perfect Clarity.
> And Dog Pack.
> And Mind of a Child.
And Rotshreck.
And Weather Control.
And Thin Blood.
And Coordinate Attacks.
And Fast Reaction.
And Hidden Lurker.
> >White Wolf better do something about it quick.
>
> Why?
Because he spent a whole day thinking about the problem and couldn't
see any solution.
Is "Why is S:CE so powerful?" in the FAQ?
"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message news:<ae7dum$4hpvm$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Once more, my boneheadedness demonstrated. You would think, having
played this game for damn near 8 years, I would have got the rules
down by now...but, on the other hand, up to this point, the only First
Strike I've seen with any regularity (and I use that word sparingly -
regular it aint) is the Sup strike with Canine Horde.
As such, I excuse myself my own idiocy. Thank you for tolerating it.
Ricky van Hammond
Xian wrote:
> As a suggestion, if you're having trouble with decks with lots of S:CE in
> them, play something that doesn't get into combat, and never blocks. If
> they can't use the cards, they will tend to jam up their hands.
Unless, of course, they are a l33t player and use the Barrens.
Die, Mike Perlman, you non-blocking, Enchant-Kindred-playing fiend...
die die die...
;)
- Ben Peal, Prince of Boston
fu...@mindstorm.com
Martin Bruset Solberg wrote:
> Well, that leaves First Strike almost useless. You can't use it against
> dodging and you can't use it against Combat Ends. It's only usefull if you
> send the opposing vampire into torpor, so he can't beat you up. Combat ends
> is just to powerfull the only way to deal with it is Immortal grapple and
> Lapse. That's just two cards! And you need potence or (some bloodline
> bullshit) too. I'm sick and tired off decks with 30 majestys and melt cards.
> White Wolf better do something about it quick.
>
> Combat Ends is broken!
First step to sanity: Stop calling it First Strike. Instead, call it
"Third Strike", since it occurs after S:CE and S:Dodge.
Next step to sanity: Just stealth bleed or vote the bastard out. If
he's gonna be a dork and play lots of S:CE, play the metagame right and
make the S:CE cards irrelevant by doing something other than getting
your sorry ass blocked.
Next step to sanity addendum: Don't give me any guff about intercept-
heavy decks. Know and love Elder Impersonation.
Another step to sanity: Play a weenie fight deck and flush the S:CE
out of his hand.
Personally, I'm fond of Goratrix + Trap + Thoughts Betrayed. ;)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <bf72a12e.02061...@posting.google.com>,
fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) mumbled something about:
>Xian wrote:>> As a suggestion, if you're having trouble with decks with lots of S:CE in
>> them, play something that doesn't get into combat, and never blocks. If
>> they can't use the cards, they will tend to jam up their hands.>
> Unless, of course, they are a l33t player and use the Barrens.
>
> Die, Mike Perlman, you non-blocking, Enchant-Kindred-playing fiend...
Actually, he uses the Barrens, Dreams, and Visit from the Cappucino
Makers all at the same time. =) What hand jam? =)
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
five_mi...@hotmail.com (Rich H.) wrote in message news:<c5310562.02061...@posting.google.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Wouldn't fret about it.
By the way, you're not a relation to David Hammond (Prince of Watford)
are you? He's a bonehead too :)
How do you like that Dave :)
Marty
fu...@optical.mindstorm.com (Ben Peal) wrote in message news:<bf72a12e.02061...@posting.google.com>...
> Xian wrote:
> > As a suggestion, if you're having trouble with decks with lots of S:CE in
> > them, play something that doesn't get into combat, and never blocks. If
> > they can't use the cards, they will tend to jam up their hands.
>
> Unless, of course, they are a l33t player and use the Barrens.
Word.
The correct solution along those lines is "play something that is
strong in the absense of offensive combat." Stuffing a deck with
Sneak/Bleed/Bloat is pretty good way to deal. On the off chance that
they block your 5th trad, GtU, or whatever, they can't really punish
you for it with a S:CE. So, you just do that action again next turn.
> By the way, Hidden Lurker followed by Trap and Withering at superior
>means that you do whatever you want to a S:CE using vampire for at
>least 3 (probably more) rounds. Use Compress for a final blow and you
>have just burned your problem childe away!
Or at least until they that much maligned card Mercy for the Weak!
Disciplineless S:CE! Ha ha ha ha! =P
Halcyan 2