Basic DI Question

Right. Now that everyone and their brother has DI in their deck, I am seeing them a lot more. And I'm still kinda confused as to what happens when you DI an Action Modifier. And I can't figure out what to archive search for (having tried a few permutations of "DI+X+Author:LSJ"), I'm asking you guys: If I DI an action modifier, can the acting minion play the same action modifier again? For example, Arika is coming to bleed me. I attempt to block. Arika plays Bonding for +1 stealth. I DI the Bonding. Can she play Bonding again? Thanks, -Peter, who should know better by now.

[ quoted text not captured ] No. Arika has already played Bonding this action. Similarly, if Ancient Influence is DI'd, no one can play another this game. If your action is DI'd, it doesn't resolve (successfully or failed), so you are not restricted by NRA, even though you have played the action card. > Thanks, > -Peter, who should know better by now. Witness1 -believe the lie.

[ quoted text not captured ] To expound upon this, if a card is played, it may be DI'd, but any other effects of the card are still lingering. Since Action Mods and Reactions are restricted to one per action, if those are DI'd, others can't be played. Freak Drive, Voter Captivation and Deflection are good cards to DI since you lose the untap, blood gain opportunity or can't bounce again. This also works for "once per combat" cards like Carrion Crows, and once per game cards like the above mentioned Ancient Influence--the lingering effect is triggered because the card was played even if it was canceled. Actions are different though because you simply start a new action again. A card has been played, but it was nullified so NRA doesn't apply (the action wasn't attempted, only announced). So you can play an identical action card again. Hope this helps. Jeff

> No. Arika has already played Bonding this action. Similarly, if Ancient > Influence is DI'd, no one can play another this game. > > If your action is DI'd, it doesn't resolve (successfully or failed), so > you are not restricted by NRA, even though you have played the action > card. Yup, as the card states: Master: out-of-turn. Cancel a minion card as it is played. That card has no effect. No cost is paid. If the burned card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped. If the card was a strike card, the minion chooses another strike. Key words "as it is played" which indicates successful playing of the card before it is canceled. --> J

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: > Right. Now that everyone and their brother has DI in their deck, > I am seeing them a lot more. And I'm still kinda confused as to > what happens when you DI an Action Modifier. 1.6.3[2] Action modifier cards: ... "A minion cannot play the same action modifier more than once during a single action." So, just like Giant's Blood getting Suddened, but it was *played*, if an Action Modifier gets DIed, you can still only *play* one action modifier more than once during a single action. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

In message <1160512072.7...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> writes: >If I DI an action modifier, can the acting minion play the same action >modifier again? For example, Arika is coming to bleed me. I attempt to >block. Arika plays Bonding for +1 stealth. I DI the Bonding. Can she >play Bonding again? No, but you could play Conditioning or whatever. This is the difference between, for example, Immortal Grapple and bleed modifiers. Immortal Grapple's text limits it to one per round - so the second one sees the first one that was already played (with no effect, due to cancellation). The bleed modifiers only limit later play, by the earlier card's card text - which has just been cancelled, by the DI. So while you can't play another of the same action modifier (due to the normal rules), you can play any of the other action modifiers that would normally be prohibited. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> schreef in bericht news:1160512072.7...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Like the other's already said: no, she can't. That's the reason multi-rush never took of over here: too many DI's. If they DI your Freak drive, it's over for a turn.

James Coupe wrote: > No, but you could play Conditioning or whatever. > > This is the difference between, for example, Immortal Grapple and bleed > modifiers. Immortal Grapple's text limits it to one per round - so the > second one sees the first one that was already played (with no effect, > due to cancellation). The bleed modifiers only limit later play, by the > earlier card's card text - which has just been cancelled, by the DI. So > while you can't play another of the same action modifier (due to the > normal rules), you can play any of the other action modifiers that would > normally be prohibited. afaik this is totaly wrong. the same that applies to immortal grapple, applies to bonding, since in the same way that immortal grapple is limited to one per round, so are bleed modifiers which state "After playing this card, you cannot play another action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action.". It is canceled, but still played, so no more bleed modifiers after a DIed conditioning, or bonding, or any bleed modifier other than Command of the Beast.

[ quoted text not captured ] James Coupe has is right. The same that applies to Immortal Grapple applies to Bonding. The card text of both is completely canceled, including their prohibitions against subsequent card plays. Both are still considered played, however. For Bonding, that means that the acting minion cannot play another Bonding, by the standard rules on not playing the same action modifier. But Conditioning, &c. are not restricted. For Immortal Grapple, there is no standard restriction, so in theory another could be played. The thing that prohibits the second from being played, however, is the card text on the second grapple. The second grapple's card text says that only one can be played. That card text is not canceled by the DI that erased the first grapple's effect, and the first grapple was played, so the text on the second prevents the second from being played. Note, also, that a Bonding will prevent Command of the Beast from being played later. To play both, you'd have to play Command of the Beast first.

LSJ wrote: > James Coupe has is right. hm. seems my understanding of DI logic was off. How about writing a DI FAQ? something like : What if I get my GTU inferior DI-ed? Can I bleed after that? Can I use it at superior? What if I get my GTU superior DI-ed? Can I inferior it after that? Can I use it at superior? What if i get my KRC DI-ed? Can I try the same political acion? Can I try another one? or something. DI is confusing :|

dome wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > James Coupe has is right. > > hm. seems my understanding of DI logic was off. How about writing a DI FAQ? DI FAQ: Direct Intervention cancels the entire effect of the card that was played, but the card is still considered "played" (since it was played). Everything else (rules, text on other cards) is not canceled. > something like : > > What if I get my GTU inferior DI-ed? Can I bleed after that? Can I use > it at superior? Yes. Yes. > What if I get my GTU superior DI-ed? Can I inferior it after that? Can I > use it at superior? Yes. Yes. > What if i get my KRC DI-ed? Can I try the same political acion? Can I > try another one? Yes. Yes. Repeat action restrictions are based on actions performed (actions that reach resolution), not on action cards played.

dome <le...@email.htnet.hr> wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > James Coupe has is right. > hm. seems my understanding of DI logic was off. How about writing a DI FAQ? > something like : > What if I get my GTU inferior DI-ed? Can I bleed after that? Can I use > it at superior? Yes. Yes. > What if I get my GTU superior DI-ed? Can I inferior it after that? Can I > use it at superior? Yes. Yes. > What if i get my KRC DI-ed? Can I try the same political acion? Can I > try another one? Yes. Yes. It's actually simple, since "playing" a card has a specific meaning. After DI is played, the canceled card was "PLAYed". If it was an action card, it was never an action, so it doesn't incur the "NRA taint". Actions are not "tainted" until they resolve (the action is blocked or successful). Direct Intervention, Tangle Atropos' Hold, and most cases of Mask of a Thousand Faces, do not "taint" a vampire as having taken a particular action. Action Modifiers and Reactions have specific "you can not PLAY two of the same" rules in the rulebook. Cards like Ancient Influence, if canceled, are completely canceled, but the second one that tries to be PLAYed sees that a previous one was PLAYed.

In message <egim3b$mgi$1...@ss408.t-com.hr>, dome <le...@email.htnet.hr> writes: >afaik this is totaly wrong. the same that applies to immortal grapple, >applies to bonding, since in the same way that immortal grapple is >limited to one per round, so are bleed modifiers which state "After >playing this card, you cannot play another action modifier to further >increase the bleed for this action.". It is canceled, but still played, The text saying "After playing this card..." is cancelled by Direct Intervention, just like all the other text on the card, and so has no effect. [ quoted text not captured ]

"dome" <le...@email.htnet.hr> wrote > > or something. DI is confusing :| Don't forget to pause and ask if anyone wants to DI after every single minion card played. It's a great way to time-out an otherwise fast-paced game. Cheers, WES (who hates DI almost as much as PTO)

"Andrew 'Wes' Weston" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> schreef in bericht news:egkfp...@enews1.newsguy.com... [ quoted text not captured ] DI is my most hated card. For exactly the reason you state above. OTOH, I don't see a lot of possibility of playing an Ally deck without it (too much ally stealing)

dome escreveu: > hm. seems my understanding of DI logic was off. How about writing a DI FAQ? Interesting - I just did a sort of FAQ on DI, after this thread was referenced back in some local mailing lists. It's in Portuguese, though. Called it the "Ultimate DI Guide" and the local Prince is thinking about writing an "Ultimate Guide" on Rotschreck, since these are the two cards most misunderstood down here in Brazil, judging for the number of questions we get about them. The Guide is structured in five basic points about DI (and consequently, any card that cancels other ones): 1. DI cancels the card text, but the cancelled card was still played (as stressed a number of times in this thread). 2. DI doesn't supersede/replace the base rules of the game, such as the limitations on action modifiers/reactions played by the same vampire in the same action. It is important considering point 1, since the cancelled card was still played. 3. Actions cancelled as played didn't even 'start' (or more technically, never reached resolution, as LSJ pointed out), so they don't trigger NRA-like clauses. This ties with point 2, since the rules about non-repeatable actions are in the rulebook now. 4. Check out card-playing restrictions on each card cancelled, especially for limitations like "only one [card X] can be played per [turn/round/combat/game]"; the text has been cancelled, but a second copy still has the text and the first copy was still played. 5. "As played" means "as played (from hand in the normal fashion)" save explicit text on the contrary, so you can't DI/cancel a card brought to play via other means (such as Vast Wealth or Concealed/Disguised Weapon). So, you can DI a Concealed Weapon card but not the weapon it is about to bring to play. Once the player understand these 5 'tenets', he'll be able to handle DI play smoothly no matter what card has been cancelled with it. Of course, the text has examples on all points to illustrate them. Did I forgot something? Fabio "Sooner" Macedo

[ quoted text not captured ] 6. (And this holds for Sudden Reversal as well): Cards are not replaced in the "as played" window, but rather wait until after they are played. Other card-moving effects (like all other effects, by default) are also unable to sqeeze into the "as played" window. The "as played" window for card X thus restricts all players to the cards they have in hand at the time the card X is played. Specifically, you cannot tap Barrens or Erciyes Fragments to go fishing for a DI or a Sudden in response to the play of card X (although you could use a DI that was already on your Fragment).

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > 6. (And this holds for Sudden Reversal as well): Cards are not replaced > in the "as played" window, but rather wait until after they are played. > Other card-moving effects (like all other effects, by default) are also > unable to sqeeze into the "as played" window. The "as played" window > for card X thus restricts all players to the cards they have in hand at > the time the card X is played. Specifically, you cannot tap Barrens or > Erciyes Fragments to go fishing for a DI or a Sudden in response to the > play of card X (although you could use a DI that was already on your > Fragment). Specifically you also don't get to draw your 2 cards from Servitor of Irad until after the opportunity for Not to Be/Emergency Preparations has passed. Because *all* the cool kids play with Servitor of Irad! Josh not a cool kid

Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo wrote: > 1. DI cancels the card text, but the cancelled card was still played > (as stressed a number of times in this thread). I think the most pertinent point about DI that likely clears up all other issues is that a card that is played and cancelled is still "played" for all purposes. Other than that, everything kind of works itself out by virtue of all the other rules. -Peter

Peter D Bakija escreveu: [ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, most of the 'tenets' above build up from that single fact on 'tenet' 1. Except maybe those related to 'as played' part, but these are kind of cornercase when compared to the other issues. We still have problems with the action bit here and there in the local playgroups, though. Sometimes people assume that if the action card is considered played, the action was attempted and, therefore, the minion is restricted by NRA clauses. It's an assumption that obviously doesn't consider how action resolution works, but it's an understandable misconception since the NRA clauses apply even if the action is blocked. It's a leap of logic, but people do that all the time. And LSJ, thanks for part 6. I'll add it up as soon as possible (which means, Tuesday) and translate the whole text to English. Fabio "Sooner" Macedo