(LSJ) Nefertiti question

Okay, to my knowledge, Nefertiti is the only source of corruption counters that doesn't include the text about the corruption counters' effect. If I use Nefertiti as my sole source of corruption counters, will I ever gain control of any other Methuselah's vampire? There is no card text to support it. --just wondering, Matt ps: And who wants to trade me some Aabbt Kindred!? : )

> Okay, to my knowledge, Nefertiti is the only source of >corruption counters that doesn't include the text about the >corruption counters' effect. > > If I use Nefertiti as my sole source of corruption counters, >will I ever gain control of any other Methuselah's vampire? >There is no card text to support it. Yep. Nefertiti's card doesn't specify any such effects that can be done with the corruption counters. And though she is the only one with no text about it, it may also be a good time to remember that if you want to take control (via Corruption counters) of a minion you have to do it at the time the Corruption or Venenation is played. (Even if you have 6 corruption counters on a 6-cap, you can't choose to burn the counters whenever you want). Halcyan 2

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Halcyan 2 wrote: > > > > Yep. Nefertiti's card doesn't specify any such effects that can be done with > > the corruption counters. > > So, nefertiti's cannot take control of a vamp. You must use a card that allows you to take control of the vamp.

[ quoted text not captured ] No, better go back and re-read LSJ post. Nefertiti can take control Raille Raille

Raille wrote: > Halcyan 2 wrote: > > >So, nefertiti's cannot take control of a vamp. You must use a card that > > >allows you to take control of the vamp. > > > > Yes. > > No, better go back and re-read LSJ post. > > Nefertiti can take control No. Nefertiti's card text says nothing about taking control. She could do it when she plays a Corruption or a Venenation (since their card text allows it), but not with her special. What post of mine are you suggesting be re-read? [ quoted text not captured ]

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20010622181645...@ng-cl1.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Wait a second, back up the candy train... Nefertiti can place corruption counters, but can't activate them? What a crock... You'll have to excuse me, but I think this is mighty lame. Aramis

In message <d9925496.01062...@posting.google.com>, Aramis <came...@hotmail.com> writes >Nefertiti can place corruption counters, Yes. Card text. > but can't activate them? Yes. Card text. > What a crock... Not really. Consider the following situation: Your prey has a copy of Volker out with 4 Corruption counters on him, and a copy of Anvil, with zero. You have a Snake and Nefertiti. Snake corrupts Anvil. Nefertiti corrupts Volker. Nefertiti can't actually take Volker. So just put it the other way around. It may be moderately annoying, but it just requires a little thought and planning, in deck construction and play. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D "You reinstall Dial-Up Networking. The Elf screams and becomes EBD690ECD7A1F an icon. *** CONGRATULATIONS! *** You completed the BT Internet B457CA213D7E6 Helpdesk training course in 15 out of a possible 9000 moves." 68C3695D623D5D

"Aramis" <came...@hotmail.com> wrote > Wait a second, back up the candy train... > > Nefertiti can place corruption counters, but can't activate them? What a crock... > > You'll have to excuse me, but I think this is mighty lame. > > Aramis In an only slightly alternate universe, the evil LSJ would be lecturing us on how Nefertiti's power to take control should be inferred, and wasn't printed in order to save card space. - Jason Bell

In message <W76Z6.71309$ru2.21...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>, Jason Bell <Jason...@mail.com> writes >In an only slightly alternate universe, the evil LSJ would >be lecturing us on how Nefertiti's power to take control >should be inferred, and wasn't printed in order to save >card space. Only if such were in the rule book. It isn't. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > Raille wrote: > > Halcyan 2 wrote: > > > >So, nefertiti's cannot take control of a vamp. You must use a card that > > > >allows you to take control of the vamp. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > No, better go back and re-read LSJ post. > > > > Nefertiti can take control > > No. Nefertiti's card text says nothing about taking control. > She could do it when she plays a Corruption or a Venenation (since their > card text allows it), but not with her special. > > What post of mine are you suggesting be re-read? > You wrote: > And though she is the only one with no text about it, it may also be a good > time to remember that if you want to take control (via Corruption counters) of > a minion you have to do it at the time the Corruption or Venenation is played. > (Even if you have 6 corruption counters on a 6-cap, you can't choose to burn > the counters whenever you want). Correct. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ This responce implies that since control is made via the placement of corruption counters, and only at the time a corruption counter is played, Nefertiti qualifies as she places a corruption counter. If you had designs otherwise, you should have said that control is made by the play of Corruption action which successfully places a corruption counter. Raille

[ quoted text not captured ] I can't see how you can get that from that quote. The quote explicitly says that control must be gotten when Corruption or Venenation is played. Which, as I said, is "correct". > If you had designs otherwise, you should have said that control is made > by the play of Corruption action which successfully places a corruption > counter. With the allowance for Venenation, this is exactly what I said was "correct". [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<$xRvhPeQ...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <d9925496.01062...@posting.google.com>, Aramis > <came...@hotmail.com> writes > >Nefertiti can place corruption counters, > > Yes. Card text. > > > but can't activate them? > > Yes. Card text. > > > What a crock... > > Not really. > > Consider the following situation: > > Your prey has a copy of Volker out with 4 Corruption counters on him, > and a copy of Anvil, with zero. > > You have a Snake and Nefertiti. > > Snake corrupts Anvil. Nefertiti corrupts Volker. Nefertiti can't > actually take Volker. > > So just put it the other way around. > > It may be moderately annoying, but it just requires a little thought and > planning, in deck construction and play. I believe the idea is: wow to use corruption I have to stuff my deck full of them, making it my only stragety(pretty lame and ineffective) Players want to use her ability to steal little guys without using corruptions.(or else why not use a different FoS with a special that is useful) Basically her special is too limited. She can only be utilized in 2 specific decks: 1. all corruptions/steal everything your prey can bring out 2. add her with that snake of eden voter chick, to prevent anyone from stopping your voting might

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<$xRvhPeQ...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <d9925496.01062...@posting.google.com>, Aramis > <came...@hotmail.com> writes > >Nefertiti can place corruption counters, > > Yes. Card text. > > > but can't activate them? > > Yes. Card text. > > > What a crock... > > Not really. > > Consider the following situation: > > Your prey has a copy of Volker out with 4 Corruption counters on him, > and a copy of Anvil, with zero. > > You have a Snake and Nefertiti. > > Snake corrupts Anvil. Nefertiti corrupts Volker. Nefertiti can't > actually take Volker. > > So just put it the other way around. > > It may be moderately annoying, but it just requires a little thought and > planning, in deck construction and play. I think my annoyance mostly lies in the fact that I have never seen a "special" ability that requires another card to "activate". I seriously doubt the designer of Nefertiti's special intended for her to not be able to activate her counters to take a vampire. It seems like a simple oversight in card wording (it wouldn't be the first time I believe). I don't even know if there's room on the card to put the whole text of "Put a corruption counter on a minion controlled by your prey. If the number of your corruption counters on the minion equals or exceeds the blood capacity of that vampire or the cost of that ally, you may burn all of your corrruption counters on that minion to gain control of him or her." If there was room, I hope this is what the special was supposed to be...but I'll never know. *sigh* Oh well, a vampire that can place corruption counters is still good, but the people who come off as "well obviously that wasn't intended... read the card" just seem to annoy me more about such a minor detail. Sorry about venting (but what is UseNet for?), Aramis

Aramis <came...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:d9925496.01062...@posting.google.com... > I seriously doubt the designer of Nefertiti's special intended for her > to not be able to activate her counters to take a vampire. Then why aren't you listening to L. Scott Johnson? Did you not bother to read either the Sabbat War Rulebook or the Final Nights Rulebook to see that HE IS THE DESIGN TEAM! Yes, he knows exactly what he intended. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

On 23 Jun 2001 20:29:11 -0700, roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote: >I believe the idea is: wow to use corruption I have to stuff my deck >full of them, making it my only stragety(pretty lame and ineffective) WHOA! Back up for a second. A deckful of Corruptions, along with a bunch of weenie Setites, a bunch of Embrace cards, and a bunch of Tribute to the Master, is NOTHING to sneeze at! Once it gets its feet under it, it can pretty much steal one minion per turn, and then bleed like hell with all of them. Bleeds for 1 only look ineffective when you have minions left to block them. Mix in some Temptation, some Form of Corruption, and you're ready to go. Add stealth as necessary, although since Corruption is +1 stealth to start with, intercept decks are going to be starting at a major disadvantage. >Players want to use her ability to steal little guys without using >corruptions.(or else why not use a different FoS with a special that What the hell do you want to steal little guys for? 4-6 Corruptions in a deck is much better if you want to do that. =/ Why not use a different FoS? Tell me another one that has DOM again? Oops, wait, that's Khay'tall. He works pretty well, although if you want to use the Aabbt Kindred to do the Corrupting, Nefertiti is sort of required... and it's always nice to be able to Govern backwards and only pay 1 for each minion. >is useful) Basically her special is too limited. She can only be >utilized in 2 specific decks: >1. all corruptions/steal everything your prey can bring out >2. add her with that snake of eden voter chick, to prevent anyone from >stopping your voting might If you stick 10 Corruptions in a deck, you'll have a good chance of repossessing 2 minions. With Nevertitties, you add a chance of a free counter every so often, although I wouldn't want to waste her action on a piss-ass little Corruption, myself. -- Derek

It' just that they have made mistakes before =p I had a hell of a time explaining why Rotchreck was worded WRONG. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > > > > And though she is the only one with no text about it, it may also be a good > > > time to remember that if you want to take control (via Corruption counters) of > > > a minion you have to do it at the time the Corruption or Venenation is played. > > > (Even if you have 6 corruption counters on a 6-cap, you can't choose to burn > > > the counters whenever you want). > > > > Correct. > > > > -- > > LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. > > Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: > > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ > > > > This responce implies that since control is made via the placement of > > corruption counters, and only at the time a corruption counter is > > played, Nefertiti qualifies as she places a corruption counter. > > I can't see how you can get that from that quote. > The quote explicitly says that control must be gotten when Corruption or > Venenation is played. Which, as I said, is "correct". > > > If you had designs otherwise, you should have said that control is made > > by the play of Corruption action which successfully places a corruption > > counter. > > With the allowance for Venenation, this is exactly what I said was "correct". > Well its a little vague about what you stating with your one word reply, however the tone and demeanor of the post seems to imply that while Nefertiti places corruption counters on a minion, they in and of them self have little effects without another source 'card' to seal the control, and take that minion. Seems counter intuitive to make exceptions to such a little used theme. Card Text: Corruption: D put a corruption counter on a vampire or ally controled by your prey. If the number of your corruption counters on the minion equals or exceeds the blood capacity of that vampire or the cost of that ally, you may burn all your corruption counters on that minion to gain control of him or her While I think this would be grand to have on the Nefertiti card, as you can see the amount of text prohibites that from happening. The card simply states if the number of corruption counters, thus, since Nefertiti places a corruption counter, and your Old ruling stating that you may only take control at the time a corruption 'counter' is placed, I see no contradiction in the thought process to allow the placement via Nefertiti, to meet the requirements and take control of a minion with out a special card. Its like saying I can't give money to a official to have them perform a quid pro quo action with out a writen request for bribe support. Raille

>Its like saying I can't give money to a official to have them perform a >quid pro quo action with out a writen request for bribe support. > Actually let's expand on that analogy. Nefertiti can only "bribe" the official (place a counter) - she does not have the capability to make a "written request" for whatever she wants. Corruption and Venenation on the other hand also provide bribes but also allow you to make that "written request." However if you don't make the request immediately you'll have to wait till the next time you have contact with that official again (the next time you bribe him). So while Corruption and Venenation allow giving money and writing a request, Nefertiti doesn't have the necessary information or capabilities to make the request (though she can give money). Okay, a bit of a wacky scenario but oh well. Halcyan 2

Jack Crow wrote: > > It' just that they have made mistakes before =p I had a hell of a time > explaining why Rotchreck was worded WRONG. Rotschreck is worded correctly. The previous rules team flip-flopped on the meaning, but the current ruling is that is operates as written. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3b35a59a...@news.flrtn1.occa.home.com>, Jack Crow <no...@nowhere.com> writes >It' just that they have made mistakes before Erm, LSJ wasn't around for those, and we all know how careful LSJ is. *sigh* It'd be helpful if you put some significant thought into your posts. :( [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip Nefertiti query> who wants to trade me some Aabbt Kindred!? : ) Nobody does, i want them all and people will give them to me because i am so much more persuasive than wot you are. Nobody ever suspects the butterfly. Anyway i already have 8 - enough for a deck. Ho, ho and thrice ho.

> Actually let's expand on that analogy. Nefertiti can only "bribe" the official > (place a counter) - she does not have the capability to make a "written > request" for whatever she wants. Corruption and Venenation on the other hand > also provide bribes but also allow you to make that "written request." However > if you don't make the request immediately you'll have to wait till the next > time you have contact with that official again (the next time you bribe him). > > So while Corruption and Venenation allow giving money and writing a request, > Nefertiti doesn't have the necessary information or capabilities to make the > request (though she can give money). lol, a "written request for corruption", but I understand what you are trying to say. Perhaps it would be easier to understand if put it as that every corruption counter up until the last one is a corruption counter that facilitates but does not allow corruption to occur. Nefertiti only has corruption counters that facilitate corruption. So if you have a Abdt Kindred and Nefertiti and you have only one corruption card in hand. You must order your actions correctly to perform the coup de etat to take over the corrupted minion. Nefertiti's ability does not allow you to perform the coup de etat. Perhaps it could be said that Nefertiti is not a "closer". Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

"Raille" <rai...@mich.com> wrote in message news:3B33F2D0...@mich.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Were in his post does he state this, all he says is "correct".

[ quoted text not captured ] I do, I do. But you have to wait till Origins. Raille

Well digging back to the original question of coruption, I found the post: ---- From: L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com) Subject: Re: Corruption Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Date: 1997/03/27 rai...@mich.com wrote: > > The Corruption card says "Put a corruption counter on a vampire or ally > controlled by your prey. If the number of your corruption counters on > the minion equals or exceeds the blood capacity of that vampire or the > cost of that ally, you may burn all of your corruption counters on that > minion to gain control of him or her." > > My question is once the Corruption action has been taken, are further > corruption cards required to add corruption counters to the corrupt > minion. Yes. (Or, you could use any other effect which placed Corruption counters. There are no other such effects currently, but some future expansion might include some.) > A question to WoTC came back stating "With corruption, you would need > five corruption cards to take five directed actions, putting five > corruption counters on a five blood vampire to take control of that > vampire." This is correct, unless you have some way of re-using your corruption cards (Carlotta or Whispers from the Dead). > I have tried using the corruption cards in this fashion and found that > to have any effect on your prey, you need to have 1/3 of your deck filled > with these cards. If the corruption was placed and then further action, > without cards were taken to corrupt a vampire (without +1 stealth), a deck > does not have to be completely filled with corruption cards. True, you would need fewer Corruption cards if the Corruption card was placed on the target an allowed a cardless action to add more Corruption counters. But its does not. > Having 30 corruption cards in a deck ruins the deck for anything else, > and anything else make the likelyhood of corruption a vampire remote. > Unless your prey has a weinie vote deck. > > So how should this card really work? You've got it. If you can't spare the 30 slots in your deck, just use five or eight and use the Corruptions to steal Allies that cost only a few pool. Then, if you find yourself in position to steal a young vampire from a voting deck, so much the better. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team --------- So if you read the first paragraph of LSJ's reply, Nefertiti seems to fit the bill and should be able to place and burn corruptions counters. but wait! A few months later He reverses the thought with this post: ------- From: LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) Subject: Re: corruption timing Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Date: 1997/10/22 James Coupe <ja...@obeah.demon.co.uk.nospam> wrote: > >I corrupted a 1 point vampire with 0 blood, but forgot to > >burn the corruption counter and take control. When can I burn > >the corruption counter legally to take control of this vampire? > > You can burn the counters whenever you want. This led to the problem of > what happens if Sheldon, Lord of the Clog (with enough Corruption > Counters) rushes Saqqaf. I can burn all the Corruption Counters and > control both vampires in combat so this led to the ruling that if you > are ever control both vampires in a combat (or rather, minions) abort > the combat immediately. However, you can burn hte counters any time you > want. You're remembering the Form of Corruption -> Self Combat situation. While Form of Corruption's counters can be burned at any time (since the card is "put into play"), Corruption counters (from the Corruption action) cannot be burned except when allowed by card text. Since the Corruption action card doesn't remain in play (only the counter does), you can only burn the counters during the action resolution. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team --------- So Corruption counters can only be burned with a corruption action, sealing the fate of any future card release's as we now see. So once again in his eternal wisdom and forward thinking, LSJ crops out any chance of a corner case years before Nefertiti was even in Playtesting. Funny how this did not come up in playtest though. So, case closed, unless LSJ wishes to reverse himself once again, and Yes he has been known to do that occasionally. Nefertiti cannot claim sole ownership of any minion via her special ability. Still a fine assest to a Settite deck Raille

[ quoted text not captured ] You should re-read that first paragraph - it's asking a different question. And it does indeed fit Nefertiti. [ quoted text not captured ] That's correct, and not a reversal of the first post you cite. The first post was asking about placing counters, not about taking control. Nefertiti can indeed place Corruption counters. > So once again in his eternal wisdom and forward thinking, LSJ crops out > any chance of a corner case years before Nefertiti was even in > Playtesting. > > Funny how this did not come up in playtest though. Hmmm. I thought it did. Must be my faulty memory. :-) > So, case closed, unless LSJ wishes to reverse himself once again, and No reversal on this point is likely, since Nefertiti was designed to function exactly this way. > Yes he has been known to do that occasionally. > > Nefertiti cannot claim sole ownership of any minion via her special > ability. > > Still a fine assest to a Settite deck > > Raille [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3B393ED8...@mich.com>, Raille <rai...@mich.com> writes >> I have tried using the corruption cards in this fashion and found that >> to have any effect on your prey, you need to have 1/3 of your deck filled >> with these cards. If the corruption was placed and then further action, >> without cards were taken to corrupt a vampire (without +1 stealth), a deck >> does not have to be completely filled with corruption cards. > >True, you would need fewer Corruption cards if the Corruption card >was placed on the target an allowed a cardless action to add more >Corruption counters. But its does not. I think your misconception stems from here. A number of people, at one time, thought Corruption should read: "Put this card on a vampire. You may take actions etc. and burn them when...." At no point did LSJ say, in this post, that you wouldn't need some form of text to burn them to take control. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > So once again in his eternal wisdom and forward thinking, LSJ crops out > > any chance of a corner case years before Nefertiti was even in > > Playtesting. > > > > Funny how this did not come up in playtest though. > > Hmmm. I thought it did. Must be my faulty memory. :-) > Now what are you trying to tell us here? ;) Raille