These came up in the various tourneys I have attended lately. I would
appreciate it if you could clarify...
A] Pier 13 Baltimore. Is this card usable by vampires only or minions in
general? I was under the impression that it was vampire-specific due to its
blood cost. An argument was made that allies could by default play it but
pay life instead of blood. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that
specifically prevents an ally from playing this card, but it seemed strange
to me that an ally could pay life for loquipment.
B] Form of Mist has various restrictions regarding its use as an action
modifier. Do these restrictions also apply to cards with similar effects
such as Shadow Body, Mirror Image, etc? I was under the impression that they
operated similarly but it seems only Form of Mist has any
errata/clarification... is this due solely to the +1 stealth inherent to
superior Form of Mist?
C] Speak with Spirits and Falcon's Eye. Can I play both by a tapped minion
to untap and block an action which I am not normally eligible to block? I
was told no in Toronto, and the logic seemed sound... I cannot play Speak
with Spirits because I am not currently eligible to block and I cannot play
Falcon's Eye because i am not currently untapped. Can I not play the cards
simultaneously to untap *and* give myself eligibility or is there a specific
order I must follow in reacting?
D] When was the last time the VEKN ratings page was updated? I think I've
played in about four tournaments that have not been recorded on that page.
Are the ratings still being updated or are we switching to one of the
proposed alternative methods of ratings suggested here? Just curious...
(This question is asked of anyone who knows--I realize it is not LSJ's realm
of rersponsibility).
Please excuse excessive verbiage... thanks in advance.
Cheers,
WES
"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message
news:a5msb...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>
> A] Pier 13 Baltimore. Is this card usable by vampires only or minions in
> general? I was under the impression that it was vampire-specific due to its
> blood cost. An argument was made that allies could by default play it but
> pay life instead of blood. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that
> specifically prevents an ally from playing this card, but it seemed strange
> to me that an ally could pay life for loquipment.
>
He cannot equip with it. Cards with blood costs may only be played by vampires,
unless otherwise stated, either by the card or by the ally in question. Note that
Ghouled Street Thugs can play Pushing the Limits, but not Channeling the Beast. If
an ally *gets* Pier 13 (I believe you can do it with a Domain Challenge, assuming the
ally's controller didn't have control of Pier 13 before the referendum), it seems
that it can use it just fine.
> B] Form of Mist has various restrictions regarding its use as an action
> modifier. Do these restrictions also apply to cards with similar effects
> such as Shadow Body, Mirror Image, etc? I was under the impression that they
> operated similarly but it seems only Form of Mist has any
> errata/clarification... is this due solely to the +1 stealth inherent to
> superior Form of Mist?
>
Only FoM. The others aren't nearly as broken and so didn't require errata. FoM's +1
stealth ability is sometimes given as a reason for it being treated like an Action
Modifier (since +1 stealth is usually an Action Modifier effect), but it's just a
convenient similarity, really.
> C] Speak with Spirits and Falcon's Eye. Can I play both by a tapped minion
> to untap and block an action which I am not normally eligible to block? I
> was told no in Toronto, and the logic seemed sound... I cannot play Speak
> with Spirits because I am not currently eligible to block and I cannot play
> Falcon's Eye because i am not currently untapped. Can I not play the cards
> simultaneously to untap *and* give myself eligibility or is there a specific
> order I must follow in reacting?
>
You cannot play the cards simultaneously. You may Wake, play Falcon's Eye, and then
use Speak with Spirits, although you'd probably be better off just using SwS for +1
intercept, unless you think there's a decent chance you will fail to block and thus
be left untapped (if you play SwS at superior).
>A] Pier 13 Baltimore. Is this card usable by vampires only or minions in
>general? I was under the impression that it was vampire-specific due to its
>blood cost. An argument was made that allies could by default play it but
>pay life instead of blood. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that
>specifically prevents an ally from playing this card, but it seemed strange
>to me that an ally could pay life for loquipment.
Allies cannot take the action to equip with loquipment because they cannot pay
the blood cost.
Pier 13 (by card text) is usable by allies. It's just difficult to give it to
them (need Succubus Club and/or Disputed Territories).
>B] Form of Mist has various restrictions regarding its use as an action
>modifier. Do these restrictions also apply to cards with similar effects
>such as Shadow Body, Mirror Image, etc? I was under the impression that they
>operated similarly but it seems only Form of Mist has any
>errata/clarification... is this due solely to the +1 stealth inherent to
>superior Form of Mist?
No. Shadow Body, Mirror Image, etc. are just combat cards (whereas Form of Mist
counts as an AM in that situation). The reason is card text (though it's likely
because of the additional stealth). Note that if you Shadow Body or Mirror
Image when you were blocked by a waking vampire, they can always block again
whereas with Form of Mist, they need more intercept.
>C] Speak with Spirits and Falcon's Eye. Can I play both by a tapped minion
>to untap and block an action which I am not normally eligible to block? I
>was told no in Toronto, and the logic seemed sound... I cannot play Speak
>with Spirits because I am not currently eligible to block and I cannot play
>Falcon's Eye because i am not currently untapped. Can I not play the cards
>simultaneously to untap *and* give myself eligibility or is there a specific
>order I must follow in reacting?
Correct (you cannot play both). See a parallel situation with a tapped minion
wanting to play 2nd Tradition and Eagle's Sight on an action across the table.
You need a wake and then you can play both.
>D] When was the last time the VEKN ratings page was updated? I think I've
>played in about four tournaments that have not been recorded on that page.
>Are the ratings still being updated or are we switching to one of the
>proposed alternative methods of ratings suggested here? Just curious...
>(This question is asked of anyone who knows--I realize it is not LSJ's realm
>of rersponsibility).
No idea. Sorry.
Halcyan 2
> >A] Pier 13 Baltimore. Is this card usable by vampires only or minions in
> >general? I was under the impression that it was vampire-specific due to
its
> >blood cost. An argument was made that allies could by default play it but
> >pay life instead of blood. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that
> >specifically prevents an ally from playing this card, but it seemed
strange
> >to me that an ally could pay life for loquipment.
>
>
> Allies cannot take the action to equip with loquipment because they cannot
pay
> the blood cost.
>
> Pier 13 (by card text) is usable by allies. It's just difficult to give it
to
> them (need Succubus Club and/or Disputed Territories).
Yeah. That's what I thought, though I couldn't seem to find any rule that
specifically prevents this in the rulebook. Maybe I didn't look hard enough.
Anybody have a page reference?
> >B] Form of Mist has various restrictions regarding its use as an action
> >modifier. Do these restrictions also apply to cards with similar effects
> >such as Shadow Body, Mirror Image, etc? I was under the impression that
they
> >operated similarly but it seems only Form of Mist has any
> >errata/clarification... is this due solely to the +1 stealth inherent to
> >superior Form of Mist?
>
> No. Shadow Body, Mirror Image, etc. are just combat cards (whereas Form of
Mist
> counts as an AM in that situation). The reason is card text (though it's
likely
> because of the additional stealth).
Shite. Well, that means Jared *could* have Sensory Deprived my Howler in the
final in Detroit. He kept playing Mirror Images and I kept playing Speak
with Spirits. Of course, I *did* have another SwS in my hand as I recall, so
I could still have stopped it... but I thought for sure that an additional
Mirror Image was an illegal play. I'll have to remember that one for future
reference.
My apologies regardless...
> Note that if you Shadow Body or Mirror
> Image when you were blocked by a waking vampire, they can always block
again
> whereas with Form of Mist, they need more intercept.
You'd still be tapped from the combat in which the Mirror Image was played
though. If you get to the combat stage, you successfully blocked the action
the first time. So you would need an *additional* Speak with Spirits in
order wake and block again after that combat is concluded. (You probably
meant that but I'll mention it anyway for posterity).
> >C] Speak with Spirits and Falcon's Eye. Can I play both by a tapped
minion
> >to untap and block an action which I am not normally eligible to block? I
> >was told no in Toronto, and the logic seemed sound... I cannot play Speak
> >with Spirits because I am not currently eligible to block and I cannot
play
> >Falcon's Eye because i am not currently untapped. Can I not play the
cards
> >simultaneously to untap *and* give myself eligibility or is there a
specific
> >order I must follow in reacting?
>
> Correct (you cannot play both). See a parallel situation with a tapped
minion
> wanting to play 2nd Tradition and Eagle's Sight on an action across the
table.
> You need a wake and then you can play both.
That does make sense. It's not very intuitive though, especially for someone
who is new to the game. I would humbly suggest adding something regarding
this combination to the Errata/Clarification page.
Thank you to Chris and Halcyan for your prompt and considerate replies.
Cheers,
WES
"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message
news:a5n2t...@enews2.newsguy.com...
(snip)
> Shite. Well, that means Jared *could* have Sensory Deprived my Howler in
the
> final in Detroit. He kept playing Mirror Images and I kept playing Speak
> with Spirits. Of course, I *did* have another SwS in my hand as I recall,
so
> I could still have stopped it... but I thought for sure that an additional
> Mirror Image was an illegal play.
Your multiple play of speak with the spirits was the illegal play =)
It's not possible because you can't play twice the same reaction card during
the same action. So even if your hand was cloged with Speak with Spirits,
you could have played only one.
> > Note that if you Shadow Body or Mirror
> > Image when you were blocked by a waking vampire, they can always block
> again
> > whereas with Form of Mist, they need more intercept.
>
> You'd still be tapped from the combat in which the Mirror Image was played
> though. If you get to the combat stage, you successfully blocked the
action
> the first time. So you would need an *additional* Speak with Spirits in
> order wake and block again after that combat is concluded.
Yes, but you couldn't use it anyway since it's not allowed by the rules.
Have you ever seen someone blocking you by stacking 3 2nd traditions ? ;)
reyda
>> Note that if you Shadow Body or Mirror
>> Image when you were blocked by a waking vampire, they can always block>again>> whereas with Form of Mist, they need more intercept.>
>You'd still be tapped from the combat in which the Mirror Image was played
>though. If you get to the combat stage, you successfully blocked the action
>the first time. So you would need an *additional* Speak with Spirits in
>order wake and block again after that combat is concluded. (You probably
>meant that but I'll mention it anyway for posterity).
What I mean is that a Wake with Evening's Freshness or a Forced Awakening (not
one of the untap cards) will let you keep blocking since the effect lasts till
the end of the action.
Halcyan 2
>> Note that if you Shadow Body or Mirror
>> Image when you were blocked by a waking vampire, they can always block
>> again whereas with Form of Mist, they need more intercept.>
> You'd still be tapped from the combat in which the Mirror Image was
> played though. If you get to the combat stage, you successfully blocked
> the action the first time. So you would need an *additional* Speak with
> Spirits in order wake and block again after that combat is concluded.
> (You probably meant that but I'll mention it anyway for posterity).
Only if you use an 'untap' wake (like SwS).
When using WWEF or FA it lasts for the entire action, so the blocker can
simply block again after Mirror Image/Shadow Body without playing any
additional cards, since he's still allowed to do so as if he was untapped
by WWEF/FA.
Flux
Chris Berger wrote:
> "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message> > A] Pier 13 Baltimore. Is this card usable by vampires only or minions in
> > general? I was under the impression that it was vampire-specific due to its
> > blood cost. An argument was made that allies could by default play it but
> > pay life instead of blood. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that
> > specifically prevents an ally from playing this card, but it seemed strange
> > to me that an ally could pay life for loquipment.
> >
> He cannot equip with it. Cards with blood costs may only be played by vampires,
> unless otherwise stated, either by the card or by the ally in question. Note that
> Ghouled Street Thugs can play Pushing the Limits, but not Channeling the Beast. If
> an ally *gets* Pier 13 (I believe you can do it with a Domain Challenge, assuming the
> ally's controller didn't have control of Pier 13 before the referendum), it seems
> that it can use it just fine.
Correct.
> > B] Form of Mist has various restrictions regarding its use as an action
> > modifier. Do these restrictions also apply to cards with similar effects
> > such as Shadow Body, Mirror Image, etc? I was under the impression that they
> > operated similarly but it seems only Form of Mist has any
> > errata/clarification... is this due solely to the +1 stealth inherent to
> > superior Form of Mist?
> >
> Only FoM. The others aren't nearly as broken and so didn't require errata. FoM's +1
> stealth ability is sometimes given as a reason for it being treated like an Action
> Modifier (since +1 stealth is usually an Action Modifier effect), but it's just a
> convenient similarity, really.
Correct.
> > C] Speak with Spirits and Falcon's Eye. Can I play both by a tapped minion
> > to untap and block an action which I am not normally eligible to block? I
> > was told no in Toronto, and the logic seemed sound... I cannot play Speak
> > with Spirits because I am not currently eligible to block and I cannot play
> > Falcon's Eye because i am not currently untapped. Can I not play the cards
> > simultaneously to untap *and* give myself eligibility or is there a specific
> > order I must follow in reacting?
> >
> You cannot play the cards simultaneously. You may Wake, play Falcon's Eye, and then
> use Speak with Spirits, although you'd probably be better off just using SwS for +1
> intercept, unless you think there's a decent chance you will fail to block and thus
> be left untapped (if you play SwS at superior).
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Wes wrote:
> > Allies cannot take the action to equip with loquipment because they cannot
> pay
> > the blood cost.
> >
> > Pier 13 (by card text) is usable by allies. It's just difficult to give it
> to
> > them (need Succubus Club and/or Disputed Territories).
>
> Yeah. That's what I thought, though I couldn't seem to find any rule that
> specifically prevents this in the rulebook. Maybe I didn't look hard enough.
> Anybody have a page reference?
The requirements of an action (cost, discipline, clan, capacity, title, etc.)
must be met or the action cannot be taken. This is inherent.
Allies have life, not blood.
Any minion with no blood is prohibited from taking an action that costs blood.
A minion with 1 blood cannot take an action that costs 2 or more.
And so on.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <3C7F606E...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
wolf.com> writes:
>>Note that
>> Ghouled Street Thugs can play Pushing the Limits, but not Channeling the Beast. If
>> an ally *gets* Pier 13 (I believe you can do it with a Domain Challenge, assuming the
>> ally's controller didn't have control of Pier 13 before the referendum), it seems
>> that it can use it just fine.>
>Correct.
Pedantry: Disputed Territory. (Or other location moving effects where
it's changing controller.)
--
James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c.
PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti
"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message
news:a5msb...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> D] When was the last time the VEKN ratings page was updated? I think I've
> played in about four tournaments that have not been recorded on that page.
> Are the ratings still being updated or are we switching to one of the
> proposed alternative methods of ratings suggested here? Just curious...
> (This question is asked of anyone who knows--I realize it is not LSJ's
realm
> of rersponsibility).
Last I heard, Todd Banister (the guy who not only handles
prize support but also ratings and who knows what else)
has been too busy dealing with people's Storyline Tournament
issues to get to updating the ratings. But I'm sure he'll
get to it soon enough, now that February is over. :-)
(No new ratings system has yet been adopted; if it were
to be, that'd be a matter for VEKN to decide, most likely
through a decision by the officer(s) in charge.)
Josh
unofficial
LSJ wrote:
>
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message
> > > A] Pier 13 Baltimore. Is this card usable by vampires only or minions in
> > > general? I was under the impression that it was vampire-specific due to its
> > > blood cost. An argument was made that allies could by default play it but
> > > pay life instead of blood. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that
> > > specifically prevents an ally from playing this card, but it seemed strange
> > > to me that an ally could pay life for loquipment.
> > >
> > He cannot equip with it. Cards with blood costs may only be played by vampires,
> > unless otherwise stated, either by the card or by the ally in question. Note that
> > Ghouled Street Thugs can play Pushing the Limits, but not Channeling the Beast. If
> > an ally *gets* Pier 13 (I believe you can do it with a Domain Challenge, assuming the
> > ally's controller didn't have control of Pier 13 before the referendum), it seems
> > that it can use it just fine.
>
> Correct.
What about allies that can play cards as if they were a vampire?
Raille
[ quoted text not captured ]
They can play cards (of the type(s) allowed) as if they were a vampire (card tex).
What's the question (that, hopefully, is not the obvious one addressed directly by every
such ally's card text)?
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ wrote:
>
> Raille wrote:
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris Berger wrote:
> > > > "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote in message
> > > > > A] Pier 13 Baltimore. Is this card usable by vampires only or minions in
> > > > > general? I was under the impression that it was vampire-specific due to its
> > > > > blood cost. An argument was made that allies could by default play it but
> > > > > pay life instead of blood. I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that
> > > > > specifically prevents an ally from playing this card, but it seemed strange
> > > > > to me that an ally could pay life for loquipment.
> > > > >
> > > > He cannot equip with it. Cards with blood costs may only be played by vampires,
> > > > unless otherwise stated, either by the card or by the ally in question. Note that
> > > > Ghouled Street Thugs can play Pushing the Limits, but not Channeling the Beast. If
> > > > an ally *gets* Pier 13 (I believe you can do it with a Domain Challenge, assuming the
> > > > ally's controller didn't have control of Pier 13 before the referendum), it seems
> > > > that it can use it just fine.
> > >
> > > Correct.
> >
> > What about allies that can play cards as if they were a vampire?
>
> They can play cards (of the type(s) allowed) as if they were a vampire (card tex).
> What's the question (that, hopefully, is not the obvious one addressed directly by every
> such ally's card text)?
>
Nope that covers it. Just clarifing my mindset.
Raille