Bloodlines

I only bought a couple of Bloodlines boosters yesterday as a sample. But I looked over the 8 boosters that another player here bought. Some comments 1. the Daughters of Cacophony look quite cool - better than the usual Shy art and the frame helps. 2. we got a good laugh out of the Blood Brother, Tom. Our Tom here (Tom Kassel) actually comes from Chicago. 3. The player who'd bought most boosters was mystified by all the new disciplines. I was able to give him some clues because I seen the web previews. Now that I check, I see that the wrappers say that there's a rules sheet in every box. That's a sneaky way of making you buy a whole box. I might do that now though as some cards do look quite spiffy - notably the Mark V and Walking through Mountains (or whatever it's called). 4. It's funny that the standard Cold Iron weapon - the Poker - is actually illustrated as being red hot. And using it to slice someone's head off seems rather implausible - it's a blunt instrument, not a sword. 5. The layout guy is still having trouble getting things the right size. The superior disciple symbols are too small because they've been made the same height as the inferior. They should be about 40% taller to make the squares the same size (c.f. Pythagorus). There's generally so much fine print that this game is only playable by daylight, AFAIC - not what you'd expect from a game about vampires. Andrew

"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> wrote > 3. The player who'd bought most boosters was mystified by all the new > disciplines. I was able to give him some clues because I seen the web > previews. Now that I check, I see that the wrappers say that there's > a rules sheet in every box. That's a sneaky way of making you buy a > whole box. I think there are a few, maybe 4-5? rule sheets in every box. You shouldn't have to buy the box to get the sheet. What is the store going to do with them? Sell them? -- Aaron The Nosferatu Stuff

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > 4. It's funny that the standard Cold Iron weapon - the Poker - is > actually illustrated as being red hot. You're mistaking blood-stained for red hot. Red hot would not be so dark (like a blood stain). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:16:37 -0500, LSJ wrote: >> 4. It's funny that the standard Cold Iron weapon - the Poker - is >> actually illustrated as being red hot. > >You're mistaking blood-stained for red hot. Red hot would not be so dark >(like a blood stain). I'm not sure what colour Kindred vitae is but human blood is darker than illustrated while hot iron's shade varies with its temperature. You're probably right about the intent though - it just wasn't what I thought when I looked at the card. I'm not convinced you've got the metallurgy right though. A poker would be tend to be wrought-iron rather than cast-iron (beaten into shape rather than poured into a mould). This would make it malleable rather than brittle and so it is not going to break when it hits Skin of Steel - it's just going to bend. This is sensible for a slender tool which is designed to poke fires - you don't want it to fracture when you do so. Here's a literary scene which comes to mind... "Holmes chuckled heartily. "Your conversation is most entertaining," said he. "When you go out close the door, for there is a decided draught." "I will go when I have said my say. Don't you dare to meddle with my affairs. I know that Miss Stoner has been here. I traced her! I am a dangerous man to fall foul of! See here." He stepped swiftly forward, seized the poker, and bent it into a curve with his huge brown hands. "See that you keep yourself out of my grip," he snarled, and hurling the twisted poker into the fireplace he strode out of the room. "He seems a very amiable person," said Holmes, laughing. "I am not quite so bulky, but if he had remained I might have shown him that my grip was not much more feeble than his own." As he spoke he picked up the steel poker and, with a sudden effort, straightened it out again." Gripping stuff! Andrew

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<4585BD3CDFB42F43.B8FD3218...@lp.airnews.net>... > 'As he spoke he picked up the *steel* poker and, with a sudden effort, > straightened it out again.' Note the added emphasis. Xian

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:<C911B82721664C81.11A6B0F7...@lp.airnews.net>... > 5. The layout guy is still having trouble getting things the right > size. The superior disciple symbols are too small because they've > been made the same height as the inferior. They should be about 40% > taller to make the squares the same size (c.f. Pythagorus). There's This has pretty much always been the case, AFAIK. Check your older cards. The superior versions are not the same size as the smaller ones. Xian

In message <dbc1153.01120...@posting.google.com>, Xian <xb...@qwest.net> writes: >This has pretty much always been the case, AFAIK. Check your older >cards. The superior versions are not the same size as the smaller >ones. The superior ones are getting a little small in some cases. Also something that I hadn't really noticed from the web-previews but am seeing on the cards: - I keep getting the Gargoyle symbol confused with the Tremere symbol. - Mytherceria, Spiritus and Obeah are all a little indistinct as regards one another. Silly question... what is the Mytherceria discipline symbol? And Visceratika? -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D It's been a long road, getting from there to here EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA213D7E It's been a long time, and my time is finally near 668C3695D623D5D I will see my dream come alive at last, I will touch the sky And they're not gonna hold me down no more, no they're not gonna change my mind

> I'm not convinced you've got the metallurgy right though. A poker > would be tend to be wrought-iron rather than cast-iron (beaten into > shape rather than poured into a mould). This would make it malleable > rather than brittle and so it is not going to break when it hits Skin > of Steel - it's just going to bend. This is sensible for a slender > tool which is designed to poke fires - you don't want it to fracture > when you do so. Ah, yes, but the poker on the card is made of Cold Iron -- which if I recall correctly, is a bit more brittle than standard iron. Fanboy

> Silly question... what is the Mytherceria discipline symbol? And > Visceratika? Visceratika's symbol is a sitting Gargoyle. Mytherceria looks like a chalice, which is thematically correct (IIRC, the Kiasyd were made when a Lasombra drank a concoction containing Fae blood and the soulstuff of a wraith). As for getting the Gargoyle and Tremere symbol confused -- simply look for the line through the middle. Fanboy

On 7 Dec 2001 17:28:23 -0800, Xian wrote: >> 'As he spoke he picked up the *steel* poker and, >> with a sudden effort, straightened it out again.' > >Note the added emphasis. Yes, I did notice. Steel is iron with a little carbon in it. Does that make a difference to the faeries? Here's what A Dictionary of Fairies says, "Iron. Cold iron repels Fairies. A knife or cross of iron, are sovereign protections against witchcraft and evil magic of all kinds. A pair of open scissors hung above a child's cradle is said to protect it from being carried off by the fairies. It is a dual protection because it is in the form of a cross, and it is also made of steel." So far as I can tell, the phrase "cold iron" is like the phrase "cold steel". It means a blade rather than a bullet. Andrew

On 7 Dec 2001 17:29:16 -0800, Xian wrote: >> 5. The layout guy is still having trouble getting things the right >> size. The superior disciple symbols are too small because they've >> been made the same height as the inferior. They should be about 40% >> taller to make the squares the same size (c.f. Pythagorus). There's > >This has pretty much always been the case, AFAIK. Check your older >cards. The superior versions are not the same size as the smaller >ones. The WW symbols are generally smaller than their WotC equivalents and the proportions of the superior to inferior have changed. The problem is that the superior symbols used on the split discipline cards are now microscopic but you do actually have to look at the symbol because it is mixed. Symbols with fine lines such as Melpomine are too small to be resolved without magnification AFAIC. You can probably always deduce what it's supposed to be but it would be better to just print it at a legible size. And, btw, the superior symbol for the sword discipline (valeran?) looks odd because the angle of the symbol changes along with the black square. There is a precedent for this though. As a puzzle, can you say what it is without looking? Andrew

In message <86DB1B917F843FF3.BCD68D81...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes: >The WW symbols are generally smaller than their WotC equivalents and >the proportions of the superior to inferior have changed. The problem >is that the superior symbols used on the split discipline cards are >now microscopic but you do actually have to look at the symbol because >it is mixed. This isn't always a huge problem, because the left-hand side symbols are usually more than visible, and at least one of the inferior symbols (in split discipline) is visible similarly. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <9ECC9725759651D4.AAF5B6B7...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes: >Yes, I did notice. Steel is iron with a little carbon in it. Does >that make a difference to the faeries? Yes. Changeling: The Dreaming, first edition, page 235: "Cold iron is anathema to all changelings. It is the ultimate representation of Banality, and thus its merest touch causes great discomfort to changelings. Cold iron is considered only to be pure iron, not steel or any other sort of alloy. "Physical contact with cold iron causes discomfort to changelings, in the form of a gnawing ache that pervades the entire body. This discomfort causes the difficulty of any task performed by the changeling to be increased by one. Additionally, the changeling may not experience an epiphany when in contact with cold iron. Damage done to a changeling by any weapon made of cold iron causes the changeling to lose a point of temporary Glamour in addition to any damage inflicted. Worst of all, if a changeling is killed by a weapon made of cold iron, his faerie nature is forever destroyed." >So far as I can tell, the phrase "cold iron" is like the phrase "cold >steel". It means a blade rather than a bullet. Not true in the slightest. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote: > And, btw, the superior symbol for the sword discipline (valeran?) > looks odd because the angle of the symbol changes along with the black > square. There is a precedent for this though. As a puzzle, can you > say what it is without looking? > > Andrew DOMINATE!!!!!!!! Yay! What do I win?

"Andrew S. Davidson" <a...@csi.com> wrote in message news:86DB1B917F843FF3.BCD68D81...@lp.airnews.net... > On 7 Dec 2001 17:29:16 -0800, Xian wrote: > (snip) > And, btw, the superior symbol for the sword discipline (valeran?) > looks odd because the angle of the symbol changes along with the black > square. There is a precedent for this though. As a puzzle, can you > say what it is without looking? > > Andrew did you notice that animalism come with or without the white disk in the discipline tag, depending on wether it's superior or inferior ? reyda

In article <9utkf0$h1g$1...@hadron.noos.net>, "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote: >did you notice that animalism come with or without the white disk in the >discipline tag, depending on wether it's superior or inferior ? > >reyda Furthermore, did you notice that this is only true of post-Jyhad cards? In Jyhad, the animalism symbol had the same color in inferior and superior versions. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail: santiago [at] umug [dot] org || Web: http://santiago.umug.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Ceci n'est pas un 'sig block'."

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually the older symbol sizes were pretty much the same. Only with FN and now bloodlines did they change, making the inferior symbols look huge by comparison. I rather prefer the old style, where they seemed to be the same size. T

Just to weigh in with my 2 cents. And if I'm wrong shoot me, I slept through several materials classes. The process does not determine the hardness alone, too many other factors are involved. In general the process of "banging it into shape" is known as cold or hot working, depending on whether it is done while the metal is heated or to what degree. These processes can cause a phenomena called strain hardening where the material becomes harder, but more brittle. I seem to recall that it is the effect of the grains becoming elongated and aligned in a linear fasion. I believe cold iron would fall under cold working (and thus the name) Pouring molten iron into a mold can produce a very soft material. The heat makes the grains of the metal uniform and round creating a material that is strong in terms of tensile strength but soft and malleable. So to review... I guess they cold forged that poker, probably more than it should have been. I've rambled on for a bit now, but if anyone cares I could dig up a textbook or two and double check. -JTP

On 8 Dec 2001 20:03:29 -0800, John wrote: >Pouring molten iron into a mold can produce a very soft material. The >heat makes the grains of the metal uniform and round creating a >material that is strong in terms of tensile strength but soft and >malleable. > >So to review... I guess they cold forged that poker, probably more >than it should have been. > >I've rambled on for a bit now, but if anyone cares I could dig up a >textbook or two and double check. See http://orb.rhodes.edu/encyclop/culture/scitech/iron_steel.html for a good summary of the difference between wrought iron, cast iron and steel. I still reckon that you would either make a poker out of steel or wrought iron. The VTES poker therefore gets it wrong by suggesting that it will shatter when it hits skin of steel/marble/rock. I'm still curious about the origin of the phrase "cold iron". Unfortunately the online OED has a huge subscription fee. Still I did find this piece of serendipity: http://www.dnaco.net/~mobrien/holmes/sidhe2.html Andrew

In message <6C8B3528DF69B81E.AADDFB47...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes: [Order swapped.] >I'm still curious about the origin of the phrase "cold iron". >Unfortunately the online OED has a huge subscription fee. From the searches available at http://dictionary.oed.com/ once that huge subscription fee is paid. (From cold.) b. of material substances which in their natural state communicate this sensation by contact. Often as a descriptive epithet of iron or steel, as the material of a weapon. Hence, such combinations as ice- cold, key-cold, stone-cold. See these words. c1290 Lives Saints (1887) 183 So cold ase a ston. 1297 R. GLOUC. (1724) 1 Welles swete and colde. 1576 FLEMING Panoplie Ep. 231 Blowe hot and colde breath out of one mouth. 1667 MILTON P.L. x. 851 Outstretcht he lay, on the cold ground. 1771 SMOLLETT Humph. Cl. (1796) II. 36 To hazard a thrust of cold iron with his antagonist. 1795 MACNEILL Will & Jean II. x, Wi' the cauld ground for his bed. 1816 SCOTT Old Mort. xvi, Try him with the cold steel. 1833 MARRYAT P. Simple xxxiii, Others darted cold shot at us. (From iron.) 1665 SIR T. HERBERT Trav. (1677) 131 Undertakes to make the Turk eat cold Iron. That's about all I can find with a cursory search. It doesn't tend to deal, of course, with the concept of cold iron as put forward regarding fae, which isn't an entirely new one but does tend to avoid obvious sources of reference for the OED etc, to the best of my knowledge. If anyone's reading The Mabinogion, the use of iron in the tale in Branwen Uerch Ly+r is fairly interesting, especially given the Irish connections. Castle Falkenstein appears to have some references to this being iron from space, from what I can tell. (It's also useful to note that, in context, cold iron for V:TES in this context (the Kiasyd) will draw on what cold iron is in the WoD, so other discussions are somewhat academic.) >I still reckon that you would either make a poker out of steel or >wrought iron. The VTES poker therefore gets it wrong by suggesting >that it will shatter when it hits skin of steel/marble/rock. Burning it doesn't necessarily require that it shatter. For instance, it could just be that it's bent so far that it's considered unusable. It also seems possible that the idea is thematically inspired in order to balance it, relative to items like Brass Knuckles, Garotte and Bastard Sword, where some of the "realism" has been sacrificed so that a card of a roughly equivalent power level is created. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2001 01:09:35 +0000, Andrew S. Davidson wrote: >I still reckon that you would either make a poker out of steel or >wrought iron. The VTES poker therefore gets it wrong by suggesting >that it will shatter when it hits skin of steel/marble/rock. I took a look in a copy of Changeling: The Dreaming at Leisure Games this evening. This says that cold iron is wrought iron and describes it as both soft and brittle. And that you can only make small things out of the stuff like arrowheads. This is not true in the real world - there are huge bridges made of it. I suppose they didn't want to make the stuff too available - it might spoil a campaign in which everyone is a fairy. Andrew

In message <42B4267B43A742CB.A7A4C56A...@lp.airnew s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes: >I took a look in a copy of Changeling: The Dreaming at Leisure Games >this evening. This says that cold iron is wrought iron and describes >it as both soft and brittle. And that you can only make small things >out of the stuff like arrowheads. This is not true in the real world >- there are huge bridges made of it. I suppose they didn't want to >make the stuff too available - it might spoil a campaign in which >everyone is a fairy. That's about right, roughly. Though most people are usually a little bit more lax on the issue, allowing specifically crafted things to be made of Cold Iron. However, generally very few things that just exist in the Real World will naturally be Cold Iron. It's kind of necessary for a game set in the real world, where various other iron and steel based items are legion. [ quoted text not captured ]