Judging guidelines

Hi We had some "misunderstandings" in our last tourney. And I wonder how you would have judged them. And I also wonder what "official" sources (LSJ) would have done. My ruling in both cases was issuing a warning for the player in error. A majority of the players didn't want to see any disqualifications at the event. Here are the different scenarios: 1.) A players uses a sabbat vampire to play Justicar Retribution burning his/hers predators Francois Villon (that had heart of the city or something similar on him, can't remember exactly). The error was not noticed by any of the five players at the tabel. When the error was realised the game was almost over and it was to late to backtrack. 2.) A player realises that he/she is playing with a eleven card crypt. The player in question played a borrowed deck. What would you have done in one of your local tourneys? What would you have done if the occured in a big qualifier or similar event? Best wishes Alex Ek Prince of Gothenburg

_angst_ wrote: > 1.) A players uses a sabbat vampire to play Justicar Retribution > burning his/hers predators Francois Villon (that had heart of the city > or something similar on him, can't remember exactly). The error was not > noticed by any of the five players at the tabel. When the error was > realised the game was almost over and it was to late to backtrack. I'd issue a warning to the player if I thought he made a mistake or a game loss if I thought it was deliberate. Either way, I'd give his predator his Francois Villon back, untapped, with all the cards that were on him and full of blood. Tough one for the judge. It's a problem so greivous there's no real way to fix it to everyone's satisfaction. > 2.) A player realises that he/she is playing with a eleven card crypt. > The player in question played a borrowed deck. I'd issue a caution, move a random one of his uncontrolled vampires to his crypt and replace it in his uncontrolled region with a duplicate of one of his ready vampires.

Emmit Svenson wrote: > _angst_ wrote: > >>1.) A players uses a sabbat vampire to play Justicar Retribution >>burning his/hers predators Francois Villon (that had heart of the city >>or something similar on him, can't remember exactly). The error was not >>noticed by any of the five players at the tabel. When the error was >>realised the game was almost over and it was to late to backtrack. > > > I'd issue a warning to the player if I thought he made a mistake or a > game loss if I thought it was deliberate. Either way, I'd give his > predator his Francois Villon back, untapped, with all the cards that > were on him and full of blood. > > Tough one for the judge. It's a problem so greivous there's no real way > to fix it to everyone's satisfaction. Sounds fine. Unless there was a Camarilla vampire available to have called and passed the same vote. Or if anything else in game state would suggest that Fracois would be not long for the ready region in any event. etc., etc. -- really need to evaluate the whole game state for that one (and it's probably going to be a mess, as Emmit says). >>2.) A player realises that he/she is playing with a eleven card crypt. >>The player in question played a borrowed deck. > > I'd issue a caution, move a random one of his uncontrolled vampires to > his crypt and replace it in his uncontrolled region with a duplicate of > one of his ready vampires. Again sounds fine. Assuming the ready vampire wasn't Jimmy Dunn. :-) -- That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet. Keep a little and let a little come back to me. LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > Emmit Svenson wrote: > > > I'd issue a warning to the player if I thought he made a mistake or a > > game loss if I thought it was deliberate. Either way, I'd give his > > predator his Francois Villon back, untapped, with all the cards that > > were on him and full of blood. > > > > Tough one for the judge. It's a problem so greivous there's no real way > > to fix it to everyone's satisfaction. > > Sounds fine. Unless there was a Camarilla vampire available to have called > and passed the same vote. Or if anything else in game state would suggest > that Fracois would be not long for the ready region in any event. > > etc., etc. -- really need to evaluate the whole game state for that one > (and it's probably going to be a mess, as Emmit says). > He controlled no camarilla vampire to play the card. One of the biggest problems with backtracking this was that when the error was realised Francois controller was already ousted Luckily for me there was no fighting over this problem. The predator in question was abit annoyed but thought it would be best for the game not to try to backtrack. I just want to know some guidelines if I face this problem again. > > > > I'd issue a caution, move a random one of his uncontrolled vampires to > > his crypt and replace it in his uncontrolled region with a duplicate of > > one of his ready vampires. > > Again sounds fine. > Assuming the ready vampire wasn't Jimmy Dunn. :-) > I think the problem was realised between round if I remember correctly. Thanks! //Alex Ek

_angst_ wrote: >>>I'd issue a warning to the player if I thought he made a mistake or a >>>game loss if I thought it was deliberate. Either way, I'd give his >>>predator his Francois Villon back, untapped, with all the cards that >>>were on him and full of blood. >>> >>>Tough one for the judge. It's a problem so greivous there's no real way >>>to fix it to everyone's satisfaction. >> >>Sounds fine. Unless there was a Camarilla vampire available to have called >>and passed the same vote. Or if anything else in game state would suggest >>that Fracois would be not long for the ready region in any event. >> >>etc., etc. -- really need to evaluate the whole game state for that one >>(and it's probably going to be a mess, as Emmit says). >> > > > He controlled no camarilla vampire to play the card. > One of the biggest problems with backtracking this was that when the > error was realised Francois controller was already ousted > Luckily for me there was no fighting over this problem. The predator in > question was abit annoyed but thought it would be best for the game not > to try to backtrack. I just want to know some guidelines if I face this > problem again. Well depends on his deck for example, if he doesn´t have Camarilla vampires at all in his deck (so the inclusion of the card was a deck building error). And depends on the outcome of the game, e.g if he wins the game with 3VP/1GW i would change the result to 2VP/1GW and give the VP to the guy with the Francois Villon, as some sort of compensation. >>>I'd issue a caution, move a random one of his uncontrolled vampires to >>>his crypt and replace it in his uncontrolled region with a duplicate of >>>one of his ready vampires. >> >>Again sounds fine. >>Assuming the ready vampire wasn't Jimmy Dunn. :-) >> > > I think the problem was realised between round if I remember correctly. Then issue a warning and find a vampire suitable for his deck (somebody should have SOMETHING, must not be the optimal choice) and include it. -- johannes walch

_angst_ wrote: > > He controlled no camarilla vampire to play the card. > One of the biggest problems with backtracking this was that when the > error was realised Francois controller was already ousted > Luckily for me there was no fighting over this problem. The predator in > question was abit annoyed but thought it would be best for the game not > to try to backtrack. I just want to know some guidelines if I face this > problem again. > Well, you know, it's everybody's responsibility to make sure that vampires playing cards meet the requirements. If the player who played it made a mistake, the player affected should have noticed it, or possibly the other people at the table. Obviously, that doesn't always happen, mistakes are made, and if it was possible to rewind, then you should rewind. But if it's not possible, the player who lost his Francois can't really be any more annoyed at the guy who played the JR than he should be at himself for not catching it at the time.

Chris Berger wrote: > Well, you know, it's everybody's responsibility to make sure that > vampires playing cards meet the requirements. If the player who played > it made a mistake, the player affected should have noticed it, or > possibly the other people at the table. Obviously, that doesn't always > happen, mistakes are made, and if it was possible to rewind, then you > should rewind. But if it's not possible, the player who lost his > Francois can't really be any more annoyed at the guy who played the JR > than he should be at himself for not catching it at the time. ahem ... I did it one time. Playing in a final, burning Leandro of my predator with an Justicar Retribution from Gratiano. I had not read the card text right. Nobody noticed it until a week later. What can you do? It is like in soccer, when the camera shows afterwards that the ball was not in the goal. And in the game you also cannot rewind everything. So you have to apply what seems apropriate. If it was his prey that afterwards got ousted, let him lose the 6 pool. If he would never have ousted his prey, let him lose the VP. Like Johannes said, you could give the VP to the ousted player. You have to judge, what could have happened and what is appropriate to rebalance the situation. But that can never be perfect. But it will be better to let the game go on, than to screw it complete because of a mistake done at the beginning.