Hey rulemongers.

I was just thinking about a interesting situation. Forgive me if this is a dumb question but I don't think this one has ever come up before. Suppose I bleed with Gwendolyn (Brujah I.C. with Pot, For, Pre, Cel, aus, tha) and get blocked. First I throw down torn signpost. My opponent doesn't manuever so I play immortal grapple. My first strike is undead strength for 5. Opponent strikes with hands. Now I play blur for two additional strikes. My second strike is hand for 3. For my third strike I play majesty. What is the result? Does the majesty void the first two strikes? Do the other strikes take effect before the combat ends and I pay one to untap? It makes more sense that the first two stikes would take effect before the combat ends. Strikes are supposedly similtaneous aren't they. Just wondering... Steve Bucy

It has just come to my mind that immortal grapple prevents both combatants from playing S:CE. Doh. What would happen in this situation excluding the immortal grapple. Steve (Opps) Bucy

[ quoted text not captured ] You are so close you could feel it. Additional strikes are like normal strikes, except your opponent doesn't have any, (unless he/she plays additional strikes too.) Consider it like a press at the same maneuver as the last one. What happens is: 1. your normal combat resoulotion, he takes 5, Gwendolyn takes 1. 2. you play blurr. 3. 1st. additional strike. gwendolyn: 3 hand damage, opp: no strike. 4. combat resolution. opp:takes three, gwen takes zero. 5. 2nd. additional strike. gwendolyn: strike combat ends, opp: no strike. 6. combat ends before strike resolution and after choosing strike. *note: dodge takes effect during strike resolution, that is why it cannot nullify a strike:combat ends. Don't worry, that was one of the first things I and my friends debated on. It also might help if i could spell resolution correctly, wouldn't it? Matt. M.

On 10 Oct 1996, Steve Bucy wrote: > It has just come to my mind that immortal grapple prevents both > combatants from playing S:CE. Doh. Indeed :) > > What would happen in this situation excluding the immortal grapple. > You're missing a few lines from the manual: "additional strikes translate in additional strike determinations for the minion playing the additional strike and additional damage resolutions for the minon receiving the strike." (or something similar). It is clear now that as you declare the TSP strike (or the hand strike at 3, if you wish) you apply the damage before the next strike is declared. You may then do as you wish. David Pontes 8[

Steve Bucy <tb...@lainet.com> writes: >Suppose I bleed with Gwendolyn (Brujah I.C. with Pot, For, Pre, Cel, aus, >tha) and get blocked. First I throw down torn signpost. My opponent >doesn't manuever so I play immortal grapple. My first strike is undead >strength for 5. Opponent strikes with hands. Now I play blur for two >additional strikes. My second strike is hand for 3. For my third strike I >play majesty. What is the result? Does the majesty void the first two >strikes? Do the other strikes take effect before the combat ends and I >pay one to untap? It makes more sense that the first two stikes would >take effect before the combat ends. Strikes are supposedly similtaneous >aren't they. First, you can't play Majesty since the Immortal Grapple limits both you and you opponent to hand strikes for the duration of the round. But, supposing that IG wasn't played, each pair of strikes (yours and you opponent's) resolve simultaneously. Each set of additional strikes resolve in turn (simultaneously with the opponent's, if he has matching additional strikes). For a complete dissection of this process, see my complete rules outline, posted to this group every month and available at http://www.itis.com/other-games/vtes/RuleMonger/outline.txt -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Virtue is the failure to http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | achieve vice. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

[ quoted text not captured ] To L. Scott Johnson: I agree that your answer makes sense, and you're doing a great job of helping everyone on the newsgroup, but strangely enough, the rules people at Wizards of the Coast would disagree with you on a few points. (I have asked them about these things before) First, they say that any vampire can play a strike: combat ends, even if immortal grapple has been played. Unfortunately they have never given me a good explanation why. Second, according to them, if you play torn signpost and choose to use it as your stike, it cannot be modified in any way. This includes: 1. Vampires with +1 hand damage 2. strike cards like undead strength 3. Gangrel Revel 4. any other way Remeber, I'm not saying that I disagree with you, I'm just letting you know how WofC would have answered the question. Of course, for all I know, they could have changed their answers again. (They seem to have a habit of doing that) Dallas Card (ec...@interlog.com)

Sadly, whomever it was at WotC that gave you that information regarding Immortal Grapple and Torn Signpost, was clearly smoking some serious Crack. The turnover rate of WotC answer people is obviously pretty high (especially in comparison to we reliable Jyhad players :-), and their information on Jyhad is lacking in accuracy. I advise everyone to not ask WotC customer service for information regarding Jyhad/VTES rules, as they are pretty consistient in dolling out misinformation. I am not saying that they are bad people or anything, just that the people who answer questions about this sort of thing are, ironicaly, fairly ignorant about the actual rules of Jyhad, as they are supposed to be answer people. As to those two specific instances: Under Immortal Grapple, the only strikes that either minion is allowed to use are hand strikes. They could be augmented hand strikes, with say, Undead Strength, Torn Signpost, Claws of the Dead, or Lucky Blow, as long as they are hand strikes. While Immortally Grappled, neither minion may play a Dodge, Strike:Combat Ends, or anything that is not a hand strike. No Majesty. No Dodge. No Guns. No Thaumaturgy strikes. Nothing but hand strikes. Anyone who tells you anything otherwise is incorrect. The people at WotC who told you that S:CE while Immortally Grappled is ok were just plain wrong. Torn Signpost is not a strike in and of itself, it simply sets a vampires hand damage at a new basic level. It does not constitute a vampires strike, nor does it prevent the use of other hand strikes or hand damage modifiers. It just gives a vampire 2 or 3 hand damage for the entire combat. It can be augmented by Fists of Death, Undead Strength, Lucky Blow, Claws of the Dead, or basically any card that increases or modifies hand damage. The VTES version of TS is worded very poorly and leads to all sorts of misconceptions. If you are want, you can play TS, Fists of Death, Death of my Conscience (at superior and ditch, say, 3 cards), and strike with Undead Strength for 13 damage. And if you have Immortally Grappled your foe, he can't even S:CE :-) Hope this helps. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "Look at me. I'm way cool. I'm off with my way cool friends to sniff floor wax." -Brian Krackow

ec...@interlog.com (Dallas Card) writes: >sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: >>First, you can't play Majesty since the Immortal Grapple limits >>both you and you opponent to hand strikes for the duration of >>the round. >> >>But, supposing that IG wasn't played, each pair of strikes (yours and >>you opponent's) resolve simultaneously. Each set of additional strikes >>resolve in turn (simultaneously with the opponent's, if he has >>matching additional strikes). >> >>For a complete dissection of this process, see my complete rules outline, >>posted to this group every month and available at >>http://www.itis.com/other-games/vtes/RuleMonger/outline.txt >To L. Scott Johnson: >I agree that your answer makes sense, and you're doing a great job >of helping everyone on the newsgroup, but strangely enough, the >rules people at Wizards of the Coast would disagree with you on a >few points. (I have asked them about these things before) If you're referring to answers given by the fine folks at ques...@wizards.com, then I'm not surprised. These people probably couldn't produce a correct ruling on Old Maid - they have (in the past) been corrected here on the newsgroup by the Net.Rep - they give "answers" that run counter to rulings/errata that are over 18 months old. Don't trust them to tell you what day it is, much less who Rotschreck affects. >First, they say that any vampire can play a strike: combat ends, >even if immortal grapple has been played. Unfortunately they have >never given me a good explanation why. They don't know. - They probably just use a yes/no dart board. >Second, according to them, if you play torn signpost and choose >to use it as your stike, it cannot be modified in any way. >This includes: > 1. Vampires with +1 hand damage > 2. strike cards like undead strength > 3. Gangrel Revel > 4. any other way According to Tom Wylie, Signpost merely resets hand damage to some new base amount, freely modifiable by any of the above (except possibly the vampire's prior innate bonus, but I think that that's allowable). You can even used Claws on a Signpost strike. The real problem with Signpost is Fists of Death. WotC tried to make Signpost useful but not enough to turn FoD into wallpaper. This is why it didn't get converted to the "+N hand damage" template like all of the other Jyhad cards. [ quoted text not captured ]