rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

more rulings - LSJ?

6 messages from 3 participants · 30 November 1998 – 03 December 1998
original thread on Google Groups

Mark Lamutt

These came up during games we played over the weekend: Chantry questions: VTES card text: "During your master phase, tap and burn 1 pool or 1 blood from any ready Tremere you control to move any Tremere from torpor to his or her contoller’s active region." Current rulings say use of the Chantry is optional. If another player has a Tremere in torpor, can they use the Chantry to get their Tremere out? I’d assume not because card text seems to indicate it can only be used in the Chantry controller’s master phase, but I thought I’d ask anyway. Is the card worded the way it is to allow the controller of the Chantry to rescue another meth’s Tremere from torpor if he/she wants to? Other questions: Can the Second Tradition be used by a prince to wake up and block if he doesn’t need the intercept, or is it only useful on a stealthed action? Kalinda can’t use her +1 Bleed at +1 Stealth ability unless she has 2 blood to pay for it, correct? I’m confused about the No Repeat Actions rule. Is it in the rules, or is it a ruling? Does it mean that a minion can’t perform the same action the same turn, the same round, or the same phase? Can the same minion wake up twice the same turn to block? Can a vamp bleed, play freak drive and then bleed again? Can a vamp with a Rutor’s Hand go hunting, and then go hunting again the same turn? Are Bum’s Rush and Ambush considered 2 different actions, even though they are very similar? I’m confused, and it’s causing confusion in general in my playgroup. Any explanation would be much appreciated. Is there a compiled list somewhere of what referendums Sabbat and Independent vamps can’t vote in? What about Camarilla vamps? Or can they all vote in all referendums? If so, what’s the point of the cards like Giovanni Acceptance and Ravnos Acceptance which make those clans members of the Camarilla? Does each Priscus get a vote in the current referendum, or does the Priscus group as a whole get 1 vote once they’ve decided how to vote?

Chris Berger

Mark Lamutt wrote: > > These came up during games we played over the weekend: > > Chantry questions: > > If another player has a Tremere in torpor, can they use the Chantry to get > their Tremere out? I’d assume not because card text seems to indicate it can > only be used in the Chantry controller’s master phase, but I thought I’d ask > anyway. > You can't use cards you don't control. > Is the card worded the way it is to allow the controller of the Chantry to > rescue another meth’s Tremere from torpor if he/she wants to? > I suppose so. (That is, I don't know if that's the *reason* it's worded that way, but you *can* do that.) > Can the Second Tradition be used by a prince to wake up and block if he > doesn’t need the intercept, or is it only useful on a stealthed action? > From the most recent rulings: Second Tradition: Domain Corrected card text: "Requires ready Prince or Justicar. +2 intercept. Also usable by a tapped Prince or Justicar, even if intercept is not yet needed, to untap and attempt to block with +2 intercept." [RTR 980623] It can be used regardless of whether the prince or justicar is tapped and regardless of whether he or she needs the intercept. > Kalinda can’t use her +1 Bleed at +1 Stealth ability unless she has 2 blood to > pay for it, correct? > Correct. Burning 2 blood is the cost. You may not attempt an action unless you can pay for it. > I’m confused about the No Repeat Actions rule. Is it in the rules, or is it a > ruling? It was originally a tournament-only rule. I believe it was incorporated into the 7/7 rulings and is now an official rule of the game. It may also be in the newest version of the VTES rules (available at www.wizards.com). > Does it mean that a minion can’t perform the same action the same > turn, the same round, or the same phase? Same turn. > Can the same minion wake up twice the same turn to block? Yes. > Can a vamp bleed, play freak drive and then bleed again? No. That's the same action. > Can a vamp with a Rutor’s Hand go hunting, and then go hunting again the same > turn? No. That's the same action. > Are Bum’s Rush and Ambush considered 2 different actions, even > though they are very similar? They are different actions. > I’m confused, and it’s causing confusion in > general in my playgroup. Any explanation would be much appreciated. > I should really save my full explanation of NRA. I'm not really in the mood for my detailed description right now. Perhaps it's in the FAQ? > Is there a compiled list somewhere of what referendums Sabbat and Independent > vamps can’t vote in? What about Camarilla vamps? Or can they all vote in all > referendums? All titled vampires may vote in any referendum, except as per card text. > If so, what’s the point of the cards like Giovanni Acceptance > and Ravnos Acceptance which make those clans members of the Camarilla? > Only Camarilla vampires may hold Camarilla titles (primogen, prince, justicar, inner circle). There are a few votes that only Camarilla vampires may call. I don't have the list handy right now, but it was included in all Sabbat boosters. Some cards have special benefits for Camarilla vampires or for Non-Camarilla vampires. For example, Closed Session is an action modifier that only allows Camarilla vampires to vote in the current political action. Also, I seem to remember a card, perhaps called Protect Thine Own... it was a vote, 1 blood, called by Justicar or Inner Circle member: burn a non-camarilla vampire (if justicar calls, then capacity of the n-c vamp must be <7). I *think* this card exists, but it's not in the card lists anywhere. Did I hallucinate it? > Does each Priscus get a vote in the current referendum, or does the Priscus > group as a whole get 1 vote once they’ve decided how to vote? > There is a Prisci vote before the normal vote. Each Priscus gets one vote in the Prisci vote (Gratiano has specific card text that says he gets an additional vote in the Prisci vote). The result of the Prisci vote indicates the way in which *all* Prisci vote for that referendum. The Prisci have a total of 3 votes. (Usually, this means that getting out a Priscus means you have 3 votes, but there is occasionally some contestation of the Prisci vote which means that the Priscus title is still weaker than a Cardinal.) -Chris

LSJ

Chris Berger <ber...@cco.caltech.edu> wrote: > Mark Lamutt wrote: > > > > These came up during games we played over the weekend: > > > > Chantry questions: > > > > If another player has a Tremere in torpor, can they use the Chantry to get > > their Tremere out? I d assume not because card text seems to indicate it can > > only be used in the Chantry controller s master phase, but I thought I d ask > > anyway. > > > You can't use cards you don't control. More appropriately: the "you" in card text is the controller of the card. > > Is the card worded the way it is to allow the controller of the Chantry to > > rescue another meth s Tremere from torpor if he/she wants to? > > > I suppose so. (That is, I don't know if that's the *reason* it's worded > that way, but you *can* do that.) Right. The blood/pool is still paid from the controller of the Chantry or a minion she controls. > > Can the Second Tradition be used by a prince to wake up and block if he > > doesn t need the intercept, or is it only useful on a stealthed action? > > > From the most recent rulings: > > Second Tradition: Domain > Corrected card text: "Requires ready Prince or Justicar. +2 intercept. > Also usable by a tapped Prince or Justicar, even if intercept is not yet > needed, to untap and attempt to block with +2 intercept." [RTR 980623] > > It can be used regardless of whether the prince or justicar is tapped > and regardless of whether he or she needs the intercept. So long as you need one or the other, right. > > Kalinda can t use her +1 Bleed at +1 Stealth ability unless she has 2 blood to > > pay for it, correct? > > > Correct. Burning 2 blood is the cost. You may not attempt an action > unless you can pay for it. Right. > > I m confused about the No Repeat Actions rule. Is it in the rules, or is it a > > ruling? > It was originally a tournament-only rule. I believe it was incorporated > into the 7/7 rulings and is now an official rule of the game. It may > also be in the newest version of the VTES rules (available at > www.wizards.com). It is still just a DCI (tournament) rule. > > Does it mean that a minion can t perform the same action the same > > turn, the same round, or the same phase? > Same turn. > > > Can the same minion wake up twice the same turn to block? > Yes. > > > Can a vamp bleed, play freak drive and then bleed again? > No. That's the same action. > > > Can a vamp with a Rutor s Hand go hunting, and then go hunting again the same > > turn? > No. That's the same action. > > > Are Bum s Rush and Ambush considered 2 different actions, even > > though they are very similar? > They are different actions. All correct. > > I m confused, and it s causing confusion in > > general in my playgroup. Any explanation would be much appreciated. > > > I should really save my full explanation of NRA. I'm not really in the > mood for my detailed description right now. Perhaps it's in the FAQ? From the DCI rules (http://www.wizards.com/DCI/VTES_Rules.html): 1. Repeat Action rule: No single vampire can repeat an action in a turn. This refers to the particular action type. For example, a vampire which successfully bleeds its prey via Computer Hacking, then untaps via Freak Drive, cannot perform any bleeding action again whatsoever that turn, regardless of whether or not it is a Computer Hacking action. Elaboration: * It doesn't matter if the action is successful or blocked. The acting minion is still unable to attempt the same type of action again this turn. * Types of actions are those defined in the rules: bleed, hunt, equip, employ (retainer), recruit (ally), political action, leave torpor, rescue (a vampire in torpor), and diablerize (a vampire in torpor). * Action cards that are not types of the above actions are types of themselves by card name (like Bum's Rush and Ambush and superior Govern the Unaligned). * Actions allowed by cards in play that are not types of the above are types of themselves by particular instance of the card in play (the action to burn one copy of Army of Rats is not the same type of action as the action to burn a different copy). * If Masked (Mask of a Thousand Faces used to change acting minions), only the "last" acting minion is restricted. > > Is there a compiled list somewhere of what referendums Sabbat and Independent > > vamps can t vote in? What about Camarilla vamps? Or can they all vote in all > > referendums? > All titled vampires may vote in any referendum, except as per card text. Correct. > > If so, what s the point of the cards like Giovanni Acceptance > > and Ravnos Acceptance which make those clans members of the Camarilla? > > > Only Camarilla vampires may hold Camarilla titles (primogen, prince, > justicar, inner circle). There are a few votes that only Camarilla > vampires may call. I don't have the list handy right now, but it was > included in all Sabbat boosters. It is also in the revised rulebook, section 10: Only Camarilla vampires can call the following referendums: Justicar Retribution, Command of the Harpies, Masquerade Enforcement, the vote to burn Masquerade Enforcement, the vote to burn Elysium: the Arboretum, and the vote to remove the abilities granted by Archon. Only Camarilla vampires can be chosen in the Archon and Camarilla Exemplary referendums. > Some cards have special benefits for > Camarilla vampires or for Non-Camarilla vampires. For example, Closed > Session is an action modifier that only allows Camarilla vampires to > vote in the current political action. Also, I seem to remember a card, > perhaps called Protect Thine Own... it was a vote, 1 blood, called by > Justicar or Inner Circle member: burn a non-camarilla vampire (if > justicar calls, then capacity of the n-c vamp must be <7). I *think* > this card exists, but it's not in the card lists anywhere. Did I > hallucinate it? It exists. Protect Thine Own - Political Action [AH]: Called by any Justicar or Inner Circle member at +1 stealth. Choose a Non-Camarilla vampire with a capacity below 6. If the acting vampire is a member of the Inner Circle, you may choose any Non-Camarilla vampire instead. If this vote is successful, burn that vampire. > > Does each Priscus get a vote in the current referendum, or does the Priscus > > group as a whole get 1 vote once they ve decided how to vote? > > > There is a Prisci vote before the normal vote. It occurs during the normal voting process. 6.3.3. Gaining Votes 4. The Prisci block. The Prisci (introduced in The Sabbat(TM) expansion) as a group have three votes. During a referendum, the Prisci block of three votes is cast "for" or "against" the referendum according to the Prisci sub-referendum. Each ready Priscus provides one vote for this sub-referendum, and no other votes may be used in this sub-referendum. Each vote is either "for" or "against" the main referendum. Whichever side has the greater number of votes in the sub-referendum gains three votes in the main referendum. If the sub-referendum is tied, the Prisci abstain from the main vote. As Prisci cast their votes in the sub-referendum, the Prisci block of three votes may shift between "for", "against", and "abstain" (as the majority in the sub-referendum changes). -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/VTES_Rules.html -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Mark Lamutt

Talking about NRA... In article <740q80$av3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, vte...@wizards.com says... > From the DCI rules (http://www.wizards.com/DCI/VTES_Rules.html): > > 1. Repeat Action rule: No single vampire can repeat an action in a turn. > This refers to the particular action type. For example, a vampire which > successfully bleeds its prey via Computer Hacking, then untaps via Freak > Drive, cannot perform any bleeding action again whatsoever that turn, > regardless of whether or not it is a Computer Hacking action. > > Elaboration: > * It doesn't matter if the action is successful or blocked. The acting minion > is still unable to attempt the same type of action again this turn. > * Types of actions are those defined in the rules: bleed, hunt, equip, > employ (retainer), recruit (ally), political action, leave torpor, > rescue (a vampire in torpor), and diablerize (a vampire in torpor). > * Action cards that are not types of the above actions are types of themselves > by card name (like Bum's Rush and Ambush and superior Govern the Unaligned). > * Actions allowed by cards in play that are not types of the above are types > of themselves by particular instance of the card in play (the action to > burn one copy of Army of Rats is not the same type of action as the > action to burn a different copy). > * If Masked (Mask of a Thousand Faces used to change acting minions), only > the "last" acting minion is restricted. > Doesn't this rule greatly reduce the usefulness of Obedience, which specifically keeps a vampire from attempting the same action during the same turn? The superior of it is still useful, but I don't see much use for the inferior. Mark

LSJ

mar...@dnvr.uswest.net (Mark Lamutt) wrote: > Talking about NRA... > Doesn't this rule greatly reduce the usefulness of Obedience, which > specifically keeps a vampire from attempting the same action during the > same turn? The superior of it is still useful, but I don't see much use > for the inferior. It makes the restriction given by Obedience redundant in a game where the DCI NRA rule is being used, yes. But the utility of Obedience remains the same. The card's effect is not lessened just becuase an additional restriction has been placed on the other (acting) minion. [ quoted text not captured ]

Chris Berger

> > Also, I seem to remember a card, > > perhaps called Protect Thine Own... it was a vote, 1 blood, called by > > Justicar or Inner Circle member: burn a non-camarilla vampire (if > > justicar calls, then capacity of the n-c vamp must be <7). I *think* > > this card exists, but it's not in the card lists anywhere. Did I > > hallucinate it? > > It exists. Protect Thine Own - Political Action [AH]: > Called by any Justicar or Inner Circle member at +1 stealth. > Choose a Non-Camarilla vampire with a capacity below 6. If the acting > vampire is a member of the Inner Circle, you may choose any Non-Camarilla > vampire instead. If this vote is successful, burn that vampire. > That's what I thought. The card list on your site doesn't have it. I think I noticed this once before and I thought maybe it was a playtest card, but it wasn't there either, and then someone else reassured me that they'd seen the card. I just forgot again and thought maybe I hallucinated not only the original card but also the reassurance... 8) I need sleep. 8) -Chris