1) Faceless Night's superior wording confuses me. If I call Domain
Challenge with a vampire who has OBF, and that vampire plays Faceless
Night at superior and sneaks past a vampire of my prey's, does my
prey's vampire tap before the referendum or after it?
2) I have a Slaughterhouse in play and bleed successfully. I play
Scrying of Secrets and look at the top seven cards in my prey's
library. If I tap a Slaughterhouse now to discard the top two, do I
then look at the next two (thereby keeping seven in my hand)?
John Eno
Kushiel wrote:
> 1) Faceless Night's superior wording confuses me. If I call Domain
> Challenge with a vampire who has OBF, and that vampire plays Faceless
> Night at superior and sneaks past a vampire of my prey's, does my
> prey's vampire tap before the referendum or after it?
After.
Is it really the case that the text "(before resolving the action)" leads to
confusion as to whether it happens before or after resolving the referendum?
> 2) I have a Slaughterhouse in play and bleed successfully. I play
> Scrying of Secrets and look at the top seven cards in my prey's
> library. If I tap a Slaughterhouse now to discard the top two, do I
> then look at the next two (thereby keeping seven in my hand)?
No. You cannot interrupt Scrying to tap the Slaughterhouse. You tap the
Slaughterhouse after Scrying, as you say, so you are no longer looking at those
cards. Scrying resolves when played.
LSJ wrote:
> Kushiel wrote:>> 1) Faceless Night's superior wording confuses me. If I call Domain
>> Challenge with a vampire who has OBF, and that vampire plays Faceless
>> Night at superior and sneaks past a vampire of my prey's, does my
>> prey's vampire tap before the referendum or after it?>
> After.
>
> Is it really the case that the text "(before resolving the action)"
> leads to confusion as to whether it happens before or after resolving
> the referendum?
I suppose I should've marked that answer with a smilie, eh?
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mar 28, 5:43 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > Is it really the case that the text "(before resolving the action)"
> > leads to confusion as to whether it happens before or after resolving
> > the referendum?
Yeah, that's the part of the wording that confuses me. How does
something happen "when the action is resolved before resolving the
action"? There doesn't seem to exist any window of time there.
But specifically in this case, I hadn't realized that the referendum's
resolution was also the action's resolution - I'd thought that the
action resolved once it wasn't blocked, but before the referendum.
That clears that up.
> I suppose I should've marked that answer with a smilie, eh?
No worries. You'll have to work harder than that to make me cry.
(*sniff*)
John Eno
Kushiel wrote:
> On Mar 28, 5:43 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>>> Is it really the case that the text "(before resolving the action)"
>>> leads to confusion as to whether it happens before or after resolving
>>> the referendum?>
> Yeah, that's the part of the wording that confuses me. How does
> something happen "when the action is resolved before resolving the
> action"? There doesn't seem to exist any window of time there.
>
"when resolved" puts it in the "after the pre-resolved" (the "attempting to
block" part -- the part that comes before resolution).
Then the parenthetical specifies the ordering between this during-resolution
effect and the action's during-resolution effect. Namely, that the Faceless
Night during-resolution effect is done first.
> But specifically in this case, I hadn't realized that the referendum's
> resolution was also the action's resolution - I'd thought that the
> action resolved once it wasn't blocked, but before the referendum.
> That clears that up.
Ah, right.
Resolution of a bleed -- burn pool.
Resolution of a hunt -- gain blood.
Resolution of a PA -- conduct a referendum.
Resolution of a Bum's Rush -- conduct a combat.
LSJ wrote:
> Kushiel wrote:>> On Mar 28, 5:43 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>>>> Is it really the case that the text "(before resolving the action)"
>>>> leads to confusion as to whether it happens before or after resolving
>>>> the referendum?>>
>> Yeah, that's the part of the wording that confuses me. How does
>> something happen "when the action is resolved before resolving the
>> action"? There doesn't seem to exist any window of time there.
>>>
> "when resolved" puts it in the "after the pre-resolved" (the "attempting
> to block" part -- the part that comes before resolution).
>
> Then the parenthetical specifies the ordering between this
> during-resolution effect and the action's during-resolution effect.
> Namely, that the Faceless Night during-resolution effect is done first.
OK, I am going to throw in the text at the bottom, for reference.
Now, you originally said:
On 29/03/2007 LSJ wrote:
> Kushiel wrote:
> > 1) Faceless Night's superior wording confuses me. If I call Domain
> > Challenge with a vampire who has OBF, and that vampire plays
> Faceless
> > Night at superior and sneaks past a vampire of my prey's, does my
> > prey's vampire tap before the referendum or after it?
>
> After.
>
but then above, in the more recent post, you said "the Faceless Night
during-resolution effect is done first".
So I have no idea what's going on. I would assume the wannabe blocking
vampire is tapped before conducting the referendum, just from my own
reading of the card and understanding of action resolution. Which you
seem to be agreeing with in this more recent post, but which contradicts
your earlier post.
Faceless Night
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and
fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the
action).
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
On 28 Mar, 23:37, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Kushiel wrote:
> > 1) Faceless Night's superior wording confuses me. If I call Domain
> > Challenge with a vampire who has OBF, and that vampire plays Faceless
> > Night at superior and sneaks past a vampire of my prey's, does my
> > prey's vampire tap before the referendum or after it?
>
> After.
>
> Is it really the case that the text "(before resolving the action)" leads to
> confusion as to whether it happens before or after resolving the referendum?
Now I'm a little bit confused. Has the wording (or functionality) of
Faceless Night
changed in any way? I can remember this ruling:
> Again, Faceless Night taps the "victim" block-attempter when the action
> resolves or when the defending Methuselah declines to make any further block
> attempts (whichever comes first).
This was made in the context of being able to still bounce a bleed
after
Faceless Night has been played until you decline to block. Once you
reach
a referendum you have declined to block, haven't you?
Cheers,
Sven
[ quoted text not captured ]
... as I did in the first post, as well, by quoting the card text which said
"before" explicitly (the section clipped from above).
And drove the point home with the follow-up re: smilie.
sven....@gmail.com wrote:
> On 28 Mar, 23:37, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>> Kushiel wrote:>>> 1) Faceless Night's superior wording confuses me. If I call Domain
>>> Challenge with a vampire who has OBF, and that vampire plays Faceless
>>> Night at superior and sneaks past a vampire of my prey's, does my
>>> prey's vampire tap before the referendum or after it?>> [before]>>
>> Is it really the case that the text "(before resolving the action)" leads to
>> confusion as to whether it happens before or after resolving the referendum?>
> Now I'm a little bit confused. Has the wording (or functionality) of
> Faceless Night
> changed in any way? I can remember this ruling:
>>> Again, Faceless Night taps the "victim" block-attempter when the action
>> resolves or when the defending Methuselah declines to make any further block
>> attempts (whichever comes first).
Yes, it has changed. The new wording makes ruling on the timing unnecessary,
since there's no longer any ambiguity to resolve.
FN taps the minion at resolution, before resolving the action.
On Mar 28, 8:00 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Kushiel wrote:> > Yeah, that's the part of the wording that confuses me. How does
> > something happen "when the action is resolved before resolving the
> > action"? There doesn't seem to exist any window of time there.
>
> "when resolved" puts it in the "after the pre-resolved" (the "attempting to
> block" part -- the part that comes before resolution).
>
> Then the parenthetical specifies the ordering between this during-resolution
> effect and the action's during-resolution effect. Namely, that the Faceless
> Night during-resolution effect is done first.
...which would be before the referendum is conducted, no? This seems
to contradict what you originally told me. Unless I'm missing
something, of course.
> > But specifically in this case, I hadn't realized that the referendum's
> > resolution was also the action's resolution - I'd thought that the
> > action resolved once it wasn't blocked, but before the referendum.
> > That clears that up.
>
> Ah, right.
>
> Resolution of a bleed -- burn pool.
> Resolution of a hunt -- gain blood.
> Resolution of a PA -- conduct a referendum.
Now I'm back to being confused.
If it weren't for the parenthetical phrase, I'd understand why the
vampire who attempted to block wasn't tapped until after the
referendum concluded - he would become tapped when the action was
resolved (in this case, conducting the referendum).
However, with the parenthetical phrase there, it seems to indicate
that the vampire becomes tapped before the referendum is conducted -
ie, "before resolving the action."
Is this because I still don't comprehend what "after the pre-resolved"
means? 'Cause I don't.
> Resolution of a Bum's Rush -- conduct a combat.
Maybe this allows for another hypothetical example that'll help me
figure this out.
Let's say I play an action, Upright Bum's Rush, which acts exactly
like Bum's Rush but can only target an untapped minion. The minion I
target with UB'sR attempts to block my action, and for whatever reason
I play Faceless Night at superior. The targeted minion now fails to
block.
I'd assume that, given what you wrote above, that minion is now
tapped, before the combat begins. Does the UB'sR fizzle because it no
longer has a valid target?
Sorry for being so thick about this.
John Eno
Kushiel wrote:
> On Mar 28, 8:00 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>> Kushiel wrote:>>> Yeah, that's the part of the wording that confuses me. How does
>>> something happen "when the action is resolved before resolving the
>>> action"? There doesn't seem to exist any window of time there.>> "when resolved" puts it in the "after the pre-resolved" (the "attempting to
>> block" part -- the part that comes before resolution).
>>
>> Then the parenthetical specifies the ordering between this during-resolution
>> effect and the action's during-resolution effect. Namely, that the Faceless
>> Night during-resolution effect is done first.>> ....which would be before the referendum is conducted, no? This seems> to contradict what you originally told me. Unless I'm missing
> something, of course.
Probably the missing part is the sarcasm in the original "after" reply (which
was hinted at by the sentence that followed, and again by the smilie-sprinkling
follow-up, but apparently not made clear enough by those elements).
>>> But specifically in this case, I hadn't realized that the referendum's
>>> resolution was also the action's resolution - I'd thought that the
>>> action resolved once it wasn't blocked, but before the referendum.
>>> That clears that up.>> Ah, right.
>>
>> Resolution of a bleed -- burn pool.
>> Resolution of a hunt -- gain blood.
>> Resolution of a PA -- conduct a referendum.>
> Now I'm back to being confused.
>
> If it weren't for the parenthetical phrase, I'd understand why the
> vampire who attempted to block wasn't tapped until after the
> referendum concluded - he would become tapped when the action was
> resolved (in this case, conducting the referendum).
>
> However, with the parenthetical phrase there, it seems to indicate
> that the vampire becomes tapped before the referendum is conducted -
> ie, "before resolving the action."
Exactly correct.
Card text indicates that he is tapped before resolving the action.
So that is when he is tapped.
The part that is confusing to me is: "how can that part be read any other way?"
> Is this because I still don't comprehend what "after the pre-resolved"
> means? 'Cause I don't.
"pre-resolved" : before reaching resolution (i.e., in the blocking window, or in
the post-block pre-resolution window where, say, Conditioning can be played on a
bleed).
Actions have resolutions like strikes have resolutions. The resolution is a
window. The effects of the action are applied in this window. FN's effect also
occurs in this window. These events must be ordered somehow. Card text places
FN's effect before the action's effect. If not for that card text, the player
could choose the order herself.
>> Resolution of a Bum's Rush -- conduct a combat.>
> Maybe this allows for another hypothetical example that'll help me
> figure this out.
>
> Let's say I play an action, Upright Bum's Rush, which acts exactly
> like Bum's Rush but can only target an untapped minion. The minion I
> target with UB'sR attempts to block my action, and for whatever reason
> I play Faceless Night at superior. The targeted minion now fails to
> block.
>
> I'd assume that, given what you wrote above, that minion is now
> tapped, before the combat begins. Does the UB'sR fizzle because it no
> longer has a valid target?
Yes.
> Sorry for being so thick about this.
Seems you've got it, but that you're second-guessing too much.
LSJ wrote:
> Kushiel wrote:>> On Mar 28, 8:00 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>>> Kushiel wrote:>>>> Yeah, that's the part of the wording that confuses me. How does
>>>> something happen "when the action is resolved before resolving the
>>>> action"? There doesn't seem to exist any window of time there.>>> "when resolved" puts it in the "after the pre-resolved" (the
>>> "attempting to
>>> block" part -- the part that comes before resolution).
>>>
>>> Then the parenthetical specifies the ordering between this
>>> during-resolution
>>> effect and the action's during-resolution effect. Namely, that the
>>> Faceless
>>> Night during-resolution effect is done first.>>
>> ....which would be before the referendum is conducted, no? This seems
>> to contradict what you originally told me. Unless I'm missing
>> something, of course.>
> Probably the missing part is the sarcasm in the original "after" reply
> (which was hinted at by the sentence that followed, and again by the
> smilie-sprinkling follow-up, but apparently not made clear enough by
> those elements).
yup. I thought the "after" was, actually, the answer you intended. The
subsequent paragraph and follow-up mention of smilies just served to
confuse, rather than clarify, for me.
So in your first post, when you said "after", you really typed it in a
sarcastic manner, intending for the reader to interpret it as meaning
"before".
I think I have it now. Or, rather, I am returned to the world-view I had
before I started reading this thread in the first place. :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mar 29, 7:03 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Probably the missing part is the sarcasm in the original "after" reply (which
> was hinted at by the sentence that followed, and again by the smilie-sprinkling
> follow-up, but apparently not made clear enough by those elements).
Ah, gotcha. Here I thought you were just making fun of me. :)
> Exactly correct.
> Card text indicates that he is tapped before resolving the action.
> So that is when he is tapped.
Okay, I'm straight on this now.
> The part that is confusing to me is: "how can that part be read any other way?"
Honestly, I hadn't actually *read* the card since its Jyhad version,
and just noticed the newest wording and was checking to make sure it
worked how I thought it worked.
Thanks for the explanations.
John Eno