This past weekend, I attended an Imperator storyline event. I did
very poorly of course; I've hardly played the game in the past 15
years and the other attendees were much more familiar with the game.
The day before the event, I re-read the rules again - my third read
through in 3 weeks. I really studied hard to play. I read a lot of
strategy articles. Built a deck that I guessed might not embarrass
itself too badly. And in general, the hours and hours of planning I
did worked out as well as I could expect... at least I didn't
humiliate myself too badly, I think.
Still, it was terribly obvious to me, essentially the new guy, that
this is going to be a nearly impossible game for me to get into for
one reason;
All cards for all time are all legal.
There's no way I can catch up on this in a pleasant way. I've already
spent dozens of hours studying hard to get the situation. The event I
played played into my existing (though very limited) knowledge of the
game and still that didn't help with almost every card every player
used resulting in a "what's that do?" from me...
So it was my impression that a completely open event, the NAC
qualifier I had considered going to next weekend, would be
impossible. How many different cards are there now? Several
thousand? I've played a lot (I mean A LOT) of CCGs, but I've never
seen one that the dominant play style was all cards all legal
forever... doesn't this just mean that the most degenerate strategies
stay dominant forever? That the learning curve for new players
becomes forever steeper until it is impossible to climb?
Eric Jome
Eric Jome wrote:
> So it was my impression that a completely open event, the NAC
> qualifier I had considered going to next weekend, would be
> impossible. How many different cards are there now? Several
> thousand? I've played a lot (I mean A LOT) of CCGs, but I've never
> seen one that the dominant play style was all cards all legal
> forever... doesn't this just mean that the most degenerate strategies
> stay dominant forever? That the learning curve for new players
> becomes forever steeper until it is impossible to climb?
It's true that the size of the available card pool is daunting for new
players, though one should become acquainted fairly quickly with most
of the cards you're likely to see at a tournament. The main things
that are important to know are the key cards from each discipline.
"What is likely to happen if I fight that guy?" and "How much is that
guy likely to bleed for if I tap out?" are very important questions to
learn the answers to. Also, VTES is multi-player and generally
somewhat informal, so it is always possible to ask someone at the
table what an opponent's deck is likely to do.
As for degenerate strategies, it isn't clear to me that VTES really
has any. There are some archetypes that are quite strong, but there is
quite a bit of diversity in the decks that show up to and win
tournaments.
Lately there have been a lot of people talking about set rotation for
some reason, but it seems to me that the vast majority of players
would prefer not to go down that route. The main reason for set
rotations, aside from forcing players to constantly update their
collections, seems to be that in most other CCGs one can win the game
more or less instantly by forming a single 2 or 3 card combo. As the
game gets older, more and more game ending combos come together from
the interactions of new and old cards, so you get set restriction to
make the game continue being a game. VTES just doesn't have those
combos, so set rotation is much less desirable.
Jesse
On Jun 8, 12:26 pm, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Still, it was terribly obvious to me, essentially the new guy, that
> this is going to be a nearly impossible game for me to get into for
> one reason;
>
> All cards for all time are all legal.
>
> There's no way I can catch up on this in a pleasant way. I've already
> spent dozens of hours studying hard to get the situation. The event I
> played played into my existing (though very limited) knowledge of the
> game and still that didn't help with almost every card every player
> used resulting in a "what's that do?" from me...
Eric, I understand your frustration. I also believe that if you made
yourself part of a playgroup that meets regularly, then you would be
"caught up" with 15 years of V:TES in about one month. The reason is
that when it comes to old cards, a group of them see play very often.
A larger group of older cards almost never see play. Once you play in
10 to 15 V:TES games, you will have seen most of the classic cards
that you will ever encounter.
It's a shame that the qualifier near you is so soon. If you had a
little bit more time, you could familiarize yourself with most of the
stuff we long time players would play at such an event.
Please hang in there.
Jay Kristoff, V:EKN Prince of Columbus, Ohio USA
> It's a shame that the qualifier near you is so soon. If you had a
> little bit more time, you could familiarize yourself with most of the
> stuff we long time players would play at such an event.
Also, it might not be your exact version of fun, but playing a simple
stealth bleed deck allows you to do very well without even necessarily
understanding what some other players are doing. Most of the standard
Kindred Spirits builds, for example, don't really care about much
other than what they're trying to do. If they get into combat, they
stand there and punch for 1, and hope they don't get killed too much.
They don't need to know much about voting beyond maybe having a few
titles to throw some weight around, and they most don't care about
cards on the table unless they grant intercept against your bleeds.
There are plenty of people out there (and many of them post frequently
on this and other online forums) who seem to think that stealth bleed
is uncool, and that everyone should be playing some trick combat combo
deck all the time. Those people are wrong. Stealth bleed is a great
way for new players to learn the game, and the fact that it works
doesn't make it cheesy. If you really want, you can sharpen your
skates for a trek up Everest after you've learned more of the game,
but if you stick to something simple and manageable you should do
quite well.
Jesse
[ quoted text not captured ]
Ok, there were some good answers there but I'll add my 2 Eurocents. ;-)
Eric Jome wrote:
> This past weekend, I attended an Imperator storyline event. I did
> very poorly of course; I've hardly played the game in the past 15
> years and the other attendees were much more familiar with the game.
>
> The day before the event, I re-read the rules again - my third read
> through in 3 weeks. I really studied hard to play. I read a lot of
> strategy articles. Built a deck that I guessed might not embarrass
> itself too badly. And in general, the hours and hours of planning I
> did worked out as well as I could expect... at least I didn't
> humiliate myself too badly, I think.
Well, considering how little you've played over the years, you have nothing
to be ashamed of. And I think this speaks in favour of the game : not even a
good CCG player can master this one just by studying a few decklists and
strategy articles in such a short time !! It's a good, complex game, which
requires practice and hindsight.
> Still, it was terribly obvious to me, essentially the new guy, that
> this is going to be a nearly impossible game for me to get into for
> one reason;
>
> All cards for all time are all legal.
>
> There's no way I can catch up on this in a pleasant way.
Yes, there is. With every big expansion come starter decks. They include
many important cards, and allow new players to get into the game very fast !
A few key cards are missing in the available starters as we speak, but that
still leaves dozens of very good decks feasible with, say, 2-3 starters and
a few boosters, so we're speaking less than 30-40 euros for a very
competitive deck here. Less if you already own some staple cards (as you
apparently do).
Not to mention that most of the playgroups have a "common box", where you'll
get all the cards we already have more than enough of. Oh, and it's a cheap
game compared to most, you can get some pretty good prices on cards on ebay
or at TheLasombra.com (excellent source for decklists too) and co.
> I've already
> spent dozens of hours studying hard to get the situation. The event I
> played played into my existing (though very limited) knowledge of the
> game and still that didn't help with almost every card every player
> used resulting in a "what's that do?" from me...
Yes, there are lots of cards, and it will take some time and practice. But
it will come sooner that you think. Fast enough, you'll be able to know the
key cards for the main disciplines, and the rest will follow. But there is
no shame in asking the card text for obscure cards, I do it often enough,
most of us do from time to time.
> So it was my impression that a completely open event, the NAC
> qualifier I had considered going to next weekend, would be
> impossible.
It's not impossible. It might be hard for you at that point. But if you play
a straight Dom / Obf bleed deck (or if you don't have any, switch to Dem
because there are some good starters available) you might even score some
nice points ! And it will certainly be a nice experience. Of course you'll
get better results next year with some practice, but it's a fun game to play
too, are results (and immediate ones) all you're after ?
> How many different cards are there now? Several
> thousand?
Sure. You can use a utility like FeldB http://member.rpg.hu/bala/feldb.html
or the Monger online, it will help you a lot !
> I've played a lot (I mean A LOT) of CCGs, but I've never
> seen one that the dominant play style was all cards all legal
> forever... doesn't this just mean that the most degenerate strategies
> stay dominant forever?
As has been said already, despite its vampires and other decaying undead,
Vampire isn't the degenerating type. ;-)
> That the learning curve for new players
> becomes forever steeper until it is impossible to climb?
Nope. Takes some time, but less than one might think, really.
We've got a group of players here in Paris who are very, very new to the
game, but they play a lot and have some previous game experience, and they
win many games already, so...
And as Jay said : it really doesn't matter if you never know what Call the
Lamprey, Twisting the Knife or Eyes of the Dead are. Some cards are
wallpaper, as in all CCG games, and you will never, ever see them
(especially not the ones that weren't reprinted).
Enjoy this game, it's one of the best around, and certainly the best
multi-player CCG ever !!
Orpheus
> So it was my impression that a completely open event, the NAC
> qualifier I had considered going to next weekend, would be
> impossible.
You can win. It isn't easy, but nothing that is worth it ever is.
>How many different cards are there now?
3029
> Several
> thousand?
Yes
> I've played a lot (I mean A LOT) of CCGs, but I've never
> seen one that the dominant play style was all cards all legal
> forever...
You are looking at the one and only
>doesn't this just mean that the most degenerate strategies
> stay dominant forever?
Degenerate is a emotionally charged word. A strong deck back in 1994
can still be a strong deck now, but you don't need cards from 1994 to
build a strong deck now. In fact a saw a weenie princes deck using
all Jyhad cards (era 1994) make it to the finals of the Dallas
Qualifier (1 person out of 5). It didn't win, but it shows that older
cards are neither obsolete nor overpowered.
>That the learning curve for new players
> becomes forever steeper until it is impossible to climb?
There certainly is a steep learning curve for VTES, but it is the best
game I have ever played. It is best to play enough to familiarize
yourself with the game (as is true for all games).
All in all, this is a game that allows players to enter and exit the
game and then re-enter the game without having to make another large
financial commitment.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Eric, I totally get what you mean, and please don't take this the
wrong way, but:
Why did you sign up for a storyline if you've been out of the game so
long? That's a type of competitive play format. Of course people who
attend those games know (almost) all the cards and tricks and stuff.
No offense, seriously, but you don't sign up for Wimbledon if you're
not yet familiar with all the ins and outs of tennis, either.
I totally understand how your experience sucked, and that is a great
shame because VTES is so much fun. But I think you're totally rushing
things and blaming it on the card pool.
What you should do, is just play a bunch of friendly games. Get to
know the game, and all those cards, by seeing them in action. But
without much actually depending on you doing well or not (no
embarrasments at all).
Find some folks who are willing to give you a bit of leeway when
playing, i.e. let you get away with bad plays sometimes, and who are
willing to teach you stuff. Ask them to play as many different decks
as possible so you can learn what is out there.
In other words: don't study the rules and then dive straight into a
competition, just play. Then, after a while, you'll know all the
current 'standard card functions' and you'll see that most cards can
be seen as variations on each other (this is true for every CCG, is it
not?). Meaning that in the future, a card you don't know can quickly
be explained as "just like <a card X you know>, but with <difference
from card X>".
You'll also find that the non-set rotation is a good thing.
I understand that you were playing 15 years ago. Your cards from that
era are still legal AND good to play with (except of course for the
ones that already sucked back then). Now that's value for money, no?
Just give yourself time to get adjusted to the stuff that came out in
the meantime. The 'main game' really hasn't changed, so I'm sure
you'll pick it all up in no time.
Eric Jome wrote:
>
> There's no way I can catch up on this in a pleasant way. I've already
> spent dozens of hours studying hard to get the situation. The event I
> played played into my existing (though very limited) knowledge of the
> game and still that didn't help with almost every card every player
> used resulting in a "what's that do?" from me...
>
> So it was my impression that a completely open event, the NAC
> qualifier I had considered going to next weekend, would be
> impossible. How many different cards are there now? Several
> thousand? I've played a lot (I mean A LOT) of CCGs, but I've never
> seen one that the dominant play style was all cards all legal
> forever... doesn't this just mean that the most degenerate strategies
> stay dominant forever? That the learning curve for new players
> becomes forever steeper until it is impossible to climb?
>
JOL.
http://deckserver.net/jol3/beta
You can take your time, you can read the cards as they are played, you
can start to get your bearings in terms of table dynamics, etc etc. And
it's more fun than just reading the card texts and the rulebook.
JOL has made me a slightly better player, and allowed me to test out
decks for a recent tournament.
That said, it's not a fast format, so you won't be up to speed for your
NAQ coming up. But for your next one, and GenCon, it will help alot.
best -
chris
Teeka wrote:
> Eric, I totally get what you mean, and please don't take this the
> wrong way, but:
> Why did you sign up for a storyline if you've been out of the game so
> long? That's a type of competitive play format. Of course people who
> attend those games know (almost) all the cards and tricks and stuff.
> No offense, seriously, but you don't sign up for Wimbledon if you're
> not yet familiar with all the ins and outs of tennis, either.
Hmmm. I mostly agree with your post, but this part isn't really all
that true. Storyline events are mostly held for fun, and don't tend to
be as competitive as regular tournaments. The arbitrary deck
restrictions and funky special rules more or less attest to that, as
does the fact that the results don't count towards anyone's rating.
Jesse
Orpheus wrote:
> Ok, there were some good answers there but I'll add my 2 Eurocents. ;-)
>
>>> How many different cards are there now? Several
>> thousand?>
> Sure. You can use a utility like FeldB http://member.rpg.hu/bala/feldb.html
> or the Monger online, it will help you a lot !
>
>
Monger is no longer being updated. I would recommend
http://www.secretlibrary.info/
That said, I use FELDB the most.
best -
chris
librarian did a thing:
> Monger is no longer being updated. I would recommendhttp://www.secretlibrary.info/> That said, I use FELDB the most.
Secretlibrary is currently not updated with the Ebony Kingdom stuff,
and may or may not have some of the newer promos. I'm hoping that gets
fixed soon.
Jesse
Teeka wrote:
> Eric, I totally get what you mean, and please don't take this the
> wrong way, but:
> Why did you sign up for a storyline if you've been out of the game so
> long?
Probably because he did his research, inquiring here and on BGG as to how to get
reacquainted, as received advice including: go to a storyline; the players are
generally friendly and the storyline format, being not rated, means players will
be even more relaxed and casual and newbie-friendly.
On Jun 8, 12:41 pm, Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 8 jun, 18:26, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > This past weekend, I attended an Imperator storyline event. I did
> > very poorly of course; I've hardly played the game in the past 15
> > years and the other attendees were much more familiar with the game.
>> What you should do, is just play a bunch of friendly games. Get to> know the game, and all those cards, by seeing them in action. But
> without much actually depending on you doing well or not (no
> embarrasments at all).
> Find some folks who are willing to give you a bit of leeway when
> playing, i.e. let you get away with bad plays sometimes, and who are
> willing to teach you stuff. Ask them to play as many different decks
> as possible so you can learn what is out there.
>
Eric, I know that Chicago is a little far for you to travel to play,
especially on a weeknight, but please keep an eye on VTES_Chicago on
google groups. Friday night, I attempted to have a game night at my
house, which is in Volo, about an hour from Milwaukee. Since I drive
home at least an hour and a half from Chicago when we play on Thursday
nights, that shouldn't be too much of a hardship... Anyway, we had to
call it off due to lack of interest, but if you were free on Friday,
then we probably could have played.
I do agree that learning as you go in a tournament isn't ideal, and I
think you would have just as hard a time with any other game. After
playing a handful of casual games, I think you'll end up with a much
better understanding of the card pool. And it's not really unfair to
ask people to declare what their cards do when they play them. Even
after playing for ~15 years, I still occasionally have to ask for
clarification on cards that have been around since Dark Sovereigns
(usually more of a fine point than "what the hell does that do?", but
certain cards from other sets are still played rarely enough that just
hearing the name doesn't immediately remind me of what it does).
I don't understand set rotation, and never did. Sure, it helps newer
players keep up, but it leaves experienced players with a lot of
worthless cardboard. I quit playing L5R shortly after they went to a
Type 2-style tournament format. Luckily when I played M:TG, type 2
was only barely heard of and type 1 was the dominant tournament format
- I quit for other reasons. I probably would've liked type 2 for a
little bit, since I wouldn't have had to deal with Moxes and such,
although type 1.5 took care of that; but half the fun of a new set is
seeing what kind of combos it brings up for older cards and what old
strategies it might revitalize. I would hate to have things dumbed
down to where you just have a pool of cards from the last 3 sets to
make a deck out of...
On Jun 8, 12:41 pm, Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Why did you sign up for a storyline if you've been out of the game so
> long?
What else is there to do? This is the lightest, easiest competitive
play format. And I accept my losses as largely of my own lack of
skill. So, I'll ask you a question in return; why are you criticizing
me for trying?
> I totally understand how your experience sucked...
Actually, it didn't suck. I didn't say that it sucked. The
experience was fine. I met several friendly, helpful new folks who
were very good at the game and provided me a lot of useful experience.
The question is a question about the game, not about me or about the
event I attended. I have an interest in the game and face a lot of
difficulties in trying to promote it in my area. I'll need a
constructive and useful answer when the inevitable criticism is
launched at it while I am teaching new people... this is a chance for
me to get the story straight.
> What you should do, is just play a bunch of friendly games.
That is, for me, unfortunately an impossibility at this time. No such
group of people exists for me to play with. The nearest are 1.5 hours
away one way. So, if there is to be such a group, it will have to
come from me.
Eric Jome
On Jun 8, 12:48 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> JOL.
I am sad to say that I found it to be nearly completely impenetrable
and extremely difficult to use. I've largely given up trying as it
seems to me to be an very unfriendly, very opaque way to try to learn
a game I can't claim to well understand in the first place.
Sorry for the criticism; it's just my impression. I know there are a
lot of really serious fans of the program, but it hasn't worked out
for me.
Eric Jome
>> What you should do, is just play a bunch of friendly games.>
> That is, for me, unfortunately an impossibility at this time. No such
> group of people exists for me to play with. The nearest are 1.5 hours
> away one way. So, if there is to be such a group, it will have to
> come from me.
>
> Eric Jome
Then do look up google groups for this post : "which KoT starters to use for
3-player newbie game " (dunno how to find the exact link).
You'll find some help choosing recent starters with good cards and some
balance between them. It's a start...
Good luck, Jim.
(I know your name is Eric, and the mission isn't quite impossible)
Orpheus
On Jun 8, 1:11 pm, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 8, 12:48 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>
> > JOL.
>
> I am sad to say that I found it to be nearly completely impenetrable
> and extremely difficult to use. I've largely given up trying as it
> seems to me to be an very unfriendly, very opaque way to try to learn
> a game I can't claim to well understand in the first place.
I am sorry to hear that as I play on JOL almost every day.
On Jun 8, 2:08 pm, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What else is there to do? This is the lightest, easiest competitive
> play format. And I accept my losses as largely of my own lack of
> skill. So, I'll ask you a question in return; why are you criticizing
> me for trying?
To be fair, I don't think it was criticisim so much as "that seems
like a weird way to jump back into the game...", as he thought
storyline events were more complicated than non storyline events. They
aren't really, but I suspect that was the basis of the question,
rather than it being based in "that was a stupid thing to do", which I
don't think it was.
-Peter
[ quoted text not captured ]
Then you should absolutely attend the tournament. As long as you know
the rules and your own deck its perfectly fine to ask about other
players cards. I was in a situation similar to yours one and a half
year ago and people tend to be tolerant to beginners since the game
needs more players. It took me a couple of months to get my first vp
in a tournament and a couple more to enter the finals in a tournament
but I had no illusions of making any results in the beginning. I still
need to ask people about card texts now and then and the fantastic
thing about this game is actually the learning curve, it never seems
to end and I think that is a good thing. The first step is hard to
take but you seem to already having taken it. Good luck!
/ Stefan Karlsson
On 8 kesä, 19:48, jcrossnicker...@gmail.com wrote:
> Lately there have been a lot of people talking about set rotation for
> some reason, but it seems to me that the vast majority of players
> would prefer not to go down that route.
I mentioned set rotation in another thread so I guess I'm qualified to
answer this.
> The main reason for set
> rotations, aside from forcing players to constantly update their
> collections, seems to be that in most other CCGs one can win the game
> more or less instantly by forming a single 2 or 3 card combo. As the
> game gets older, more and more game ending combos come together from
> the interactions of new and old cards, so you get set restriction to
> make the game continue being a game. VTES just doesn't have those
> combos, so set rotation is much less desirable.
I suspect that it's the other way around. You get game ending combos
because new cards are intentionally designed, playtested and balanced
in the context of the currently legal block. VTES doesn't have them
because new cards are created with every other set in mind.
The former approach to designing is obviously bad for the players. If
unrestricted tournament formats are neglected a player can either play
a bad and unbalanced game or keep up with the newest sets. I don't
think anybody would want VTES to go that way. However, having an
occasional set restricted tournament couldn't do any damage as long as
the game continues to be designed with the unrestricted format in mind.
Well, this rather quickly became a discussion about me and my play
experience, but I had been hoping to talk more about what it means for
the game to have no set restrictions ever.
Perhaps I'll take my personal issues to another thread and see what
people think there...
Even if this thread has already been dismissed, just a couple
thoughts.As mentioned, the game reprints frequently, so access to key
cards is easy. One could argue this is stagnant which may be true
since you still have prevalence of certain cards like Govern or decks
like Malk 94 still running around, but at the same time, new cards
that come out, in a way similar to other games, change the archetypes
somewhat or develop new ones. Cool because the decks you love are
relevant, not cool because not enough new stuff really shakes things
up. Also cards do enough similar things that if you don’t have access
to card A, card B will do in a pinch.
The game is also well suited for open since as mentioned, the game
doesn’t rely on cheap combos that break the game in five minutes and
it’s simply a race to see which player pulls the best broken cards
first out of their nearly identical decks. So there’s no real need to
get ‘problem’ cards out of the environment or reset the game because
of a horde of design mistakes. Conversely there is no need to
continually increase the power level of cards and make older ones
obsolete because the game plays well and doesn’t need cards like
“bleed at +5 bleed, and +5 stealth” or “burn your prey’s tapped
minions at +3 stealth” to maintain interest. After that gets old, what
next? A reset to make games longer, so rotate those out, and go back
to bleeding at +1 and +1?
To sum up, set rotation is unnecessary and even detrimental in a game
like VTES because:
a) Reprints are accessible and frequent.
b) No real problem combos or decks exist necessitating rotation to
rescale game.
c) Power climb would be bad because game is fairly balanced as is.
Instead, tech should be created to resolve outstanding issues, or
create new and balanced themes.
d) Enough variation and repeating abilities on similar cards allows
use of one card if a similar card is not available for whatever
reason.
e) Mechanics in game are the same as they were initially so even
though there are a lot of different cards, they all do variations on a
fixed set of ideas for example, “bleed at such number or with such
stealth” or “enter combat with a minion under set situation”. Even
then, most players will let you know what they’re doing and
familiarity with key cards or disciplines will give enough insight
into what a deck is doing.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Well, when I play magic, we play with all cards I own, we usually
don't restrict to standard, but our pools consist only of cards from
the last seven years. You have like, legacy and vintage in magic, too,
where all cards are legal. I remember when I started playing magic,
and vtes, how hard it was to always having to read every single card
that was played, but after a while you start recognizing patterns and
remember cards quicker. Even if there was set rotation, you would
probably experience the same thing, with so many unknown cards...
So the learning curve for recognizing cards is always high. Now, onto
your question, I haven't played that much vtes that I really know, but
I think it is great that there is no set rotation. And there's is one
way of preventing "degeneracy", vampires have groups, this is a new
feature from the old days, so you can only crypt vampires of two
adjacent groups...
I have one tip for you, though, you seem to be in the same situation
as me; no one close to play with. I started playing online on
LackeyCCG, a program with pictures where you can play in real time.
It's better than not playing at all, I guess, but there's some people
playing vtes there every now and then.
And like someone said: there's some cards that you will see again and
again.
On Jun 8, 12:54 pm, Jay Kristoff <jaykrist...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Eric, I understand your frustration. I also believe that if you made
> yourself part of a playgroup that meets regularly, then you would be
> "caught up" with 15 years of V:TES in about one month. The reason is
> that when it comes to old cards, a group of them see play very often.
> A larger group of older cards almost never see play. Once you play in
> 10 to 15 V:TES games, you will have seen most of the classic cards
> that you will ever encounter.> Please hang in there.
I'll echo Jay's comments. If you play with four other people and
get two or three games in a play session, you'll see eight or twelve
decks' worth of cards in a few hours. Precisely because of the
3000+ card environment, no one will give you any trouble if you
ask to read a card, or ask what a card does, or how it interacts
with another card. I have to do this all the time, even though I've
been playing for over ten years. Don't sweat it.
Regarding whether the 3000+ card environment is a bar to new
players: I believe it is not. Since you describe your background
as having played numerous card games, you may be familiar with
games where Strategy X or Deck Z is dominant, and on the
tournament scene everyone plays that deck or a deck designed
to thwart it. This is not the case with V:TES, in my opinion,
because of the 3000+ card environment. You can build a deck
that does well in an area of the game - bleeding, voting, combat,
etc. - and you can do quite well. You can bring that same deck
to another table and do poorly. Your opponents, their decks and
their play styles will do more to determine table outcomes than
playing teh n3w c00lness from tha intarwebs.
In a given block of Magic: the Gathering, you might have four
or five strong strategies for tournament play, and one of those
will best fit your own play style and the local metagame. In
V:TES you have 15 years of strong strategies - you will not be
able to successfully account for all of them. This makes your
gamesmanship and ability to play your own deck in a fluid
environment more important. Pick a weapon and get into the
arena.
Here's a story from my own experience: after a few months'
worth of poor showing, I decided to play a horrid, awful, cheesy,
Dominate weenie deck at a qualifier. I just wanted a win, that's
all. And boy, did I get some. I swept a few tables in the qualifying
rounds and was a lock for the finals -- and this was in very strong,
capable competition. I went to the finals confident and feeling
good. In the finals, my prey got out a single vampire with Atonement:
+1 intercept (all that was needed to stop my Govern the Unaligned)
and this vampire does not tap when blocking younger vampires
(all of my vampires were younger). And voila, my game was over.
I stayed in there, tried to haggle and offer help to other players
in return for VPs or assistance, but it was to no avail. And that
will
just happen sometimes, even with a strong deck.
V:TES is not impossible to get into. It may require a different
mindset to try and get a handle on the metagame. But if you
think you might be interested in the politics of multi-player tables
and you think you have a knack for a given type of play, you
should definitely give it a try. Generally speaking, VTES players
love to see new blood. (Har. It is a pun.)
--plus, changing to a retirement/rotational system now would
basically bankrupt the game's long-running principle against
such marketing models. Which would be a shame.
hza
Eric Jome schrieb:
> I am sad to say that I found it to be nearly completely impenetrable
> and extremely difficult to use. I've largely given up trying as it
> seems to me to be an very unfriendly, very opaque way to try to learn
> a game I can't claim to well understand in the first place.
hmmm, i mostly found very helpul guys with the interface in itself.
playing at all is better than playin not at all, so i use JOL to keep in
touch with new stuff and people's decks.
my playgroup is reduced to 3 guys (me included) so i'm thinkig about the
Rapid Thought variant to invent in our game nights.
JOL is as far as it gets to RT-vtes for me ...
User acceptance for interfaces might be relevant, though ...
cheers,
Alf
On Jun 8, 3:13 pm, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, this rather quickly became a discussion about me and my play
> experience, but I had been hoping to talk more about what it means for
> the game to have no set restrictions ever.
I think a lot of people already addressed this, but I'll certainly
throw in. Yeah, having no set restrictions at all means that there is
a *lot* of stuff floating around to keep track of (What is Black Hand?
What are Imbued? What is a Laibon? Anarchs?). But for the most part,
the issues aren't really the small specifics, but the large strategy
issues, and they are pretty consistent across the game--yeah, the
Malkavians and the Lasombra and the Giovanni and the Kisayid all can
Stealth and Bleed (for example), and they all do it a little
differently. But it is all Stealth and Bleed, and interacts the same
way Stealth and Bleed interacts, pretty much regardless of which kind
it is.
The advantage of no set rotation is the obvious--all cards are always
good. Which means people who played for a few years in 1995, left the
game, and came back now can still sit down and play a competitive game
with what they already own. Yeah, again, new folks coming in now have
a lot to keep up with, but really, again, the game is mostly about
large strategy issues (Stealth and Bleed vs Rush vs Vote Decks vs Wall
vs Weenie Horde) much more than the little specifics (What does that
Osebo do?). After a few games, most of the standard cards become old
hat, and yeah, every once and a while, something will surprise you
(I've been playing this game regularly and consistently for 12+ years
now, and *I* still say "Huh. That card does *that*? Crazy!" every few
games)., but the basic strategies are what you need to figure out.
Yeah, a crazy Assamite Anarch stealth vote deck is good and uses all
sorts of crazy tech, but it is still just a stealth vote deck.
-Peter
[ quoted text not captured ]
Ah yes, I do remember you signed up and tried to get into a game. Did
you ever play in a game?
I find Macs the same way, but some people love them. However, as I have
been occasionally forced to use my wife's mac, I have learned to deal
with it, and can now at least use it.
Since my closest playgroup is a 2hr drive, it was JOL or barely
anything. I'm at a low ebb right now, only playing in about 10 games,
but that's ok. I even participated in some half-dozen Imperator games,
including a Sabbat Imperator game that I am finding to be quite fun.
If you ever want to try JOL again, give me a call (e-mail me and I will
send you my phone#), and I can maybe walk you through some of the issues
you are having? I know nothing about computers, but JOL is a snap now.
That said, I have heard secretlibrary.info also has a game play
mechanism. I tried using it, but no one else was there to play. JOL at
least has many players.
best -
chris
[ quoted text not captured ]
Umm... I think this thread has turned into a discussion of exactly
what you were talking about... why we're convinced that not
wallpapering all the cards everytime a new set comes out is a good
thing.
And a side issue, I think people are suggesting that your
unfamiliarity with the cards, which is perfectly reasonable for a new
player, stems not from a broken tournament format, but from the fact
that you haven't, you know, played the game. I don't detect anything
personal or any shots being taken here...
On Jun 8, 6:59 pm, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> And a side issue, I think people are suggesting that your
> unfamiliarity with the cards, which is perfectly reasonable for a new
> player, stems not from a broken tournament format, but from the fact
> that you haven't, you know, played the game. I don't detect anything
> personal or any shots being taken here...
Just a quick note. Again.
I don't consider the tournament format broken. I consider the common
play format intimidating to new players. And this thread was intended
to wonder about that in an open setting. I guess I wasn't really
expecting anyone to really be interested or sympathetic to the idea;
you for example are heavily invested in the game and a great fan of
it, so it is threatening to you to suggest or imply that anything
about the game might not be perfect the way it is now. But I am not
making any so profound and sweeping a generalization as any format
being broken. I don't have the experience to back up such an
assertion.
But I do have a definite bit of information to back up my question -
my personal experiences. Are there personal attacks? Not really.
But there is a condescending and dismissive attitude about the
question... which is part of the intimidation of approaching the game
in general. For example, I would not, as a result of this thread,
even consider running an event with a set restriction - experienced
players are vigorously opposed and I would want to encourage them to
come. So, in the end, I guess I've learned the answer to my question;
Q: Is the unlimited nature of common play off putting to new players?
A: Maybe. But it doesn't matter to experienced players if it is.
Eric Jome
On Jun 8, 5:49 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> Ah yes, I do remember you signed up and tried to get into a game. Did
> you ever play in a game?
Nah. I am afraid I didn't. I couldn't understand how to get a game
and didn't want to spend weeks on end to complete one. If I could
make a suggestion apart from improving the interface, I'd suggest an
introductory walkthrough and a general introduction to the system on a
help page. The game has nothing now for instructions except a command
directory, which isn't much use except to experienced users... who
don't need it anyway.
> If you ever want to try JOL again, give me a call (e-mail me and I will
> send you my phone#), and I can maybe walk you through some of the issues
> you are having? I know nothing about computers, but JOL is a snap now.
Thank you for the offer, but I don't know that I'll make it around to
trying it again. As a senior designer and developer of web software
though, I am very curious about opportunities to make improvements to
it. :)
Eric Jome
On Jun 8, 9:33 pm, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> For example, I would not, as a result of this thread,
> even consider running an event with a set restriction - experienced
> players are vigorously opposed and I would want to encourage them to
> come. So, in the end, I guess I've learned the answer to my question;
>
Oh no... I would definitely be interested in attending such an event.
The fact that you don't seem interested in playing with existing
groups, even to the extent of responding, notwithstanding. If you
decide to host an event and decide to place a set restriction on it, I
don't doubt that the response would be the same as if there were not a
set restriction (essentially, players will make it if they're
available - unfortunately, I, for one, am not always available on
weekends). But I'd be happy to attend. It could be fun to have a
different environment.
> Q: Is the unlimited nature of common play off putting to new players?
> A: Maybe. But it doesn't matter to experienced players if it is.
>
Seriously, dude? That's what you get from this discussion? I think
it's a good open discussion. If you're so closed to people
disagreeing with you, then maybe it's your problem and not everyone
else's... Sure, if you count "experienced" players as anyone who's
played before, then yeah, the unlimited nature isn't a concern. If
you go to a tournament without having played the game, then you might
have trouble... that doesn't mean that V:TES as a whole isn't open or
accessible to new players.
On Jun 8, 7:33 pm, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, in the end, I guess I've learned the answer to my question;
>
> Q: Is the unlimited nature of common play off putting to new players?
> A: Maybe. But it doesn't matter to experienced players if it is.
V:TES is hardly the only CCG to have survived for a while and allowed
cards from any sets. All such games seem offputting to new players to
me. Mechanics bloat is a huge problem with CCGs. There's at least
two CCGs that I demoed for years that I lost interest in trying to
teach because there were just too many parts.
With V:TES, which has a steep learning curve to begin with, mechanics
bloat can make it nigh impenetrable, sure.
On the other hand, I find that some things overwhelm people unfamiliar
with lots of cards that shouldn't. The number of different effects in
the game that matter isn't nearly as large as the number of different
effects. One thing that creates a vampire is much like another, as
stealth cards are like each other, intercept cards like each other,
bleed cards like each other, etc.
But, then, while you will tend to see many of the same cards played
across games, V:TES has a much, much higher percentage of playable
cards than the typical two-player CCG and, of course, has lots of
sets.
It might actually be easier to become a competitive player of this
game than a casual player. The casual player is going to focus on
cards - which cards are cool, which clans are cool. The competitive
player can step back from worrying about thousands of different card
texts and be concerned with the strategic game. Is it more important
to understand the difference between Ecstatic Agony and Lessons in the
Steel or to understand the difference between how to play 4 player
tables vs. 5?
I've certainly come across much better players than I who knew far
less about card texts.
On Jun 8, 9:42 pm, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Seriously, dude? That's what you get from this discussion? I think
> it's a good open discussion. If you're so closed to people
> disagreeing with you, then maybe it's your problem and not everyone
> else's...
I wish it was just me. Let's go back and count the posts - at the
time of this writing, there are 35. Prepare for totally unfair
summary;
1) OP - question implying it is hard to get started as a new player
2) agree, but nothing can be done, you'll get used to it when you play
more
3) agree, but nothing can be done, you'll get used to it when you play
more
4) agree, but nothing can be done, you'll get used to it when you play
more
5) same again
6) same again
7) same again
Shall I continue? The answer isn't ever going to be "yeah, and I
think a set restriction for new players would be helpful"... the game
culture today isn't into that idea. The very helpful and well meaning
posts are oriented to "yeah, it's tough... but play a lot and the
problem will go away." Which is true. If a person bothers to stay
with it... at present, I doubt I can even get people to try it, let
alone put in the time and effort to work through it all. I'm just
suggesting that "stick it out" isn't going to produce very good
results - when I tell this to new players, they will quit, not stay
with it.
Mistakes I can see I've made in the thread (not a comprehensive list);
1) I should not have used the word "degenerate" which has a special
meaning in CCGs and when I use it in a general sense, it is totally
fairly misconstrued to mean that CCG sense. I mean it to say that the
game is not kept fresh by removing the best cards from play and
replacing them with different cards, even if they are substantially
very similar. That is, the game "degenerates" instead of "evolves"
because old baggage never goes away. Example; Malk94.
2) I'm talking to the wrong crowd about my impressions. Everyone on
the forum is a long time player heavily invested in the game, with no
interest in restricted formats. Why should they be? They've already
got the knowledge and the cards. It doesn't seem intimidating to
them. The audience that would be receptive to my ideas probably
doesn't play anymore or isn't interested in trying, not the audience
of tournament winners and long time game supporters. Of course, I am
very interested in those people though - I don't have a play group and
have to start one from scratch. I need to be able to talk people
through difficult questions like "how do I get into a game with 15
years of history and it is all valid all the time?"
It's no big. I don't mean this discussion to make people unhappy.
And I did get a lot of helpful advice in general... even if it won't
all work for me, I can definitely appreciate the good intentions.
Eric Jome
On Jun 8, 11:50 pm, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 8, 9:42 pm, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > Seriously, dude? That's what you get from this discussion? I think
> > it's a good open discussion. If you're so closed to people
> > disagreeing with you, then maybe it's your problem and not everyone
> > else's...
>
> I wish it was just me. Let's go back and count the posts - at the
> time of this writing, there are 35. Prepare for totally unfair
> summary;
>
> 1) OP - question implying it is hard to get started as a new player
> 2) agree, but nothing can be done, you'll get used to it when you play
> more
> 3) agree, but nothing can be done, you'll get used to it when you play
> more
> 4) agree, but nothing can be done, you'll get used to it when you play
> more
> 5) same again
> 6) same again
> 7) same again
>
> Shall I continue? The answer isn't ever going to be "yeah, and I
> think a set restriction for new players would be helpful"... the game
> culture today isn't into that idea.
I don't think anyone said that "a set restriction for new players
wouldn't be useful". You stated that "the game" is hurt by the open
playing format. For new players, I tend to stick with starters.
Demo'ing and Playgroup inception are quite different than the game as
a whole.
>The very helpful and well meaning
> posts are oriented to "yeah, it's tough... but play a lot and the
> problem will go away." Which is true. If a person bothers to stay
> with it... at present, I doubt I can even get people to try it, let
> alone put in the time and effort to work through it all. I'm just
> suggesting that "stick it out" isn't going to produce very good
> results - when I tell this to new players, they will quit, not stay
> with it.
You are kind of coming at it from the wrong angle. You are trying to
"fix" the game so it is newbie friendly. All you have to do is play
with starters in your playgroup (or a similar limited pool of cards)
until everyone gets comfortable with the game.
It's like learning to swim. You start off in the shallow end with an
instructor who teaches you the basics, not jumping off the high-dive
at an Olympics try-out while telling the organizers that the diving
board it too high.
There is lots of advice on how to start/maintain a playgroup. I have
done my fair share of it and so have lots of people here.
> Mistakes I can see I've made in the thread (not a comprehensive list);
>
> 1) I should not have used the word "degenerate" which has a special
> meaning in CCGs and when I use it in a general sense, it is totally
> fairly misconstrued to mean that CCG sense. I mean it to say that the
> game is not kept fresh by removing the best cards from play and
> replacing them with different cards, even if they are substantially
> very similar. That is, the game "degenerates" instead of "evolves"
> because old baggage never goes away. Example; Malk94.
>
> 2) I'm talking to the wrong crowd about my impressions. Everyone on
> the forum is a long time player heavily invested in the game, with no
> interest in restricted formats. Why should they be? They've already
> got the knowledge and the cards. It doesn't seem intimidating to
> them. The audience that would be receptive to my ideas probably
> doesn't play anymore or isn't interested in trying, not the audience
> of tournament winners and long time game supporters. Of course, I am
> very interested in those people though - I don't have a play group and
> have to start one from scratch. I need to be able to talk people
> through difficult questions like "how do I get into a game with 15
> years of history and it is all valid all the time?"
>
> It's no big. I don't mean this discussion to make people unhappy.
> And I did get a lot of helpful advice in general... even if it won't
> all work for me, I can definitely appreciate the good intentions.
I like your candor, but your biggest mistake is the threads title
which is like sugar-coated troll-bait.
Getting a playgroup started has very little to do with VTES unlimited
set feature.
Hope this helps.
On Jun 9, 12:10 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> You stated that "the game" is hurt by the open
> playing format.
I can see I've made another mistake. I don't mean "the game" as a
body of rules, the actual game play. The game play is fine. I mean
"the game" as a commercial hobby entity. Are new players not picking
up the game because of the intimidating nature of getting started? I
am not making any statement about game play. I am making a statement
about outreach, teaching, and encouraging adoption of the game.
Eric Jome
[ quoted text not captured ]
If anything is hurting "the game" in that regard, it is the need for 4
to 5 players to play a game. Otherwise it's trivially easy to get
started - pick up a starter deck (or one of those nifty beginner kits,
or whatever they called them) and play. There's no reason to know all
the cards, or even a reasonably large subset of them to play a casual
game. The problem is in getting enough people together to play.
On Jun 9, 9:30 am, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> If anything is hurting "the game" in that regard, it is the need for 4
> to 5 players to play a game. Otherwise it's trivially easy to get
> started - pick up a starter deck (or one of those nifty beginner kits,
> or whatever they called them) and play. There's no reason to know all
> the cards, or even a reasonably large subset of them to play a casual
> game. The problem is in getting enough people together to play.
I regularly game in groups of 8 to 20. Most of the board games
popular today take a minimum of 4 players. Even in a gaming
environment that has mostly 2 player games, there are often many
people gathered to play many matches of 2 player games. To me, people
seem like the least problem...
But having people develop an interest seems to be a problem. The game
is very complex. People shy away from long, complex games to play
easier, faster games. To relate a similar story, friends and I have
had no trouble agreeing communally to each buy a handful of Magic
cards and play that in a limited league format. Yet, when we talk
about growing the league into more open play, interest breaks down...
and that's only "more open" in the sense that we would move to playing
with more than 200 cards each, still in the current sets in
production.
If I take these same people and tell them, oh by the way, if you like
Anarchs you'll be shopping eBay praying for an OOP set to come up at
10 times the price, that's a deal breaker. If I take these same
people and say "yeah, that Malkavian stealth bleed deck you hated in
1995 is still an active thriving part of the game", that's a deal
breaker too.
Eric Jome
do not give up...
I stopped buying cards for 5 year and stopped playing for 3 years,
then I moved two country and decide to play again. I had a good
collection of card until anarch but as you I discovered lots of new
card and the "what does it do?" effect.
But if you find a set of regular player you will be up to speed very
fast. Moreover, keep in mind that most VTES are very friendly and
always want to teach old ladies like us, you will be in good hand
here.
Have a look at the deck I played in our small storyline in cambridge.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/68da47146e1022ac
you must know 80% of the cards.
On Jun 9, 10:46 am, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The game
> is very complex. People shy away from long, complex games to play
> easier, faster games. To relate a similar story, friends and I have
> had no trouble agreeing communally to each buy a handful of Magic
> cards and play that in a limited league format. Yet, when we talk
> about growing the league into more open play, interest breaks down...
> and that's only "more open" in the sense that we would move to playing
> with more than 200 cards each, still in the current sets in
> production.
That sounds like an insurmountable issue to me. The appeal of VtES
(IMO) is precisely the complexity; that is the niche the game has
carved for itself. That does lend itself to difficulty in attracting
players who are interested in the opposite.
> If I take these same people and tell them, oh by the way, if you like
> Anarchs you'll be shopping eBay praying for an OOP set to come up at
> 10 times the price, that's a deal breaker.
Are anarchs really going for that much? Generally speaking VtES cards
tend to be pretty affordable on the secondary market. Cards that get
expensive tend to find themselves reprinted fairly often. I mean,
there are some cards that get skipped over every once in a while, but
it's the exception, rather than the rule.
> If I take these same
> people and say "yeah, that Malkavian stealth bleed deck you hated in
> 1995 is still an active thriving part of the game", that's a deal
> breaker too.
I guess. I'd hardly call it "thriving" in my local metagame, so that
one in particular isn't a problem. But I can see how it might be for
others.
-witness1
On Jun 8, 10:33 pm, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Q: Is the unlimited nature of common play off putting to new players?
In a tournament environment, I assume that it's the competitive level
of play that would be off-putting to new players, rather than the
depth of the card pool. At the first few tournaments I attended, I was
intimidated not by the cards themselves (whose texts I mostly knew at
that point from casual play) but by the decks and players. There are
lots and lots of little tricks in the game, and a lot of them don't
have much or anything to do with individual card texts. A limited
tournament environment wouldn't help mitigate that.
In a non-competitive environment, if you're building your own
playgroup, the card pool is only as deep as you want it to be, so I'm
not sure why that would be an issue...?
John Eno
Eric Jome
> If I take these same people and tell them, oh by the way, if you like
> Anarchs you'll be shopping eBay praying for an OOP set to come up at
> 10 times the price, that's a deal breaker. If I take these same
> people and say "yeah, that Malkavian stealth bleed deck you hated in
> 1995 is still an active thriving part of the game", that's a deal
> breaker too.
The first part isn't really all that true. The original Anarch set was
mostly terrible, and the newer stuff from Twilight Rebellion is much
much better. Also, a bunch of the better anarch cards were recently
reprinted as promos for the last storyline, so they are definitely in
circulation still. It is annoying that the Fee Stakes haven't been
reprinted. I'll definitely give you that one.
The second part could totally go either way though. Instead of "the
Malkavian deck you hated in 1995 is still legal" you could say "the
Toreador deck you loved in 1995 is still legal", or whatever. Also,
despite the fact that people habitually refer to Malk94 as a cheesy
high powered deck, it's actually fairly rare at all levels of play, at
least in my experience, and I honestly don't think it's very good
anymore.
Jesse
[ quoted text not captured ]
The hardest problem that I have seen with getting the game developed
into a group is that you need to create and maintain a critical mass
of 4 players on a table minimum.
On 9 kesä, 17:46, Eric Jome <eric.j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I regularly game in groups of 8 to 20. Most of the board games
> popular today take a minimum of 4 players. Even in a gaming
> environment that has mostly 2 player games, there are often many
> people gathered to play many matches of 2 player games. To me, people
> seem like the least problem...
If you don't need to go to a tournament to find players nothing is
stopping you and a group of other players from playing a self-imposed
restricted format. Pick a base set at first and when enough players
get hooked move on to unrestricted.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Ah -
That's the issue in a nutshell. Knowing nothing about designing
software or web design, I don't really notice the clunky interface, I
just want to play. As an expert, you can't help but notice it, and it
prevents you from playing.
It's like for me, going into crappy game stores can be a very painful
experience, having owned one for many many years. I can't help but
notice the poorly trained staff, the disgusting shelves, the lack of new
product etc etc. Even though the store may have had what I wanted, I
might not stay long enough to shop for it.
That said, the JOL interface is very cross platform friendly, and one
big thing about it - you don't have to commit to a block of time to
play. You can just check your games, update your situation if
necessary, and come back later. You *can* play in real-time as well,
but you don't have to. That grants it flexibility over other VtES
playing platforms, like Lackey.
And finally, it's too bad you don't want to try JOL again - it really is
a great place to practice VTES. And even though it might seem tough to
get started, once you do, it becomes a snap.
best -
chris