Some Background quotes:
"Fall of the Camarilla: Fall of the is a temporary effect. Once the
card is out of play (by ousting the controller, for instance), the
underlying sect of the vampires is again 'active'." [LSJ 20040519]"
"Each vampire's sect is given in its card text, and that may override
the default sect of that vampire's clan (see the lists in the
following sections). If a vampire changes clans (by means of a Clan
Impersonation card, for example) to a clan that belongs to a different
sect, he changes sects as well." Online Rulebook, section 10
QUESTION #1:
Fall of the Sabbat is in play. Lucretia (Camarilla Nosferatu) plays
“Clan Impersonation” to become a Lasombra. Later, Fall of the Sabbat
is burned. What sect is Lucretia now:
GUESS #1: Since “there is no Sabbat”, the default Lasombra sect is
considered “Independent” at the point this Clan Impersonation is
played & the Section 10 rule triggered. Lucretia therefore becomes
Independent. Later, when “Fall of the Sabbat” is burned, Lucretia
remains Independent, since no mechanism exists for automatically
altering the sect of individual vampires when the clan itself switches
sects (see Giovanni Acceptance, et al.).
GUESS #2: “Fall of the Sabbat” doesn’t change the default sect of
clans, but merely the sect of vampires. Therefore, when Lucretia
plays “Clan Impersonation” and triggers rule 10, her “underlying sect”
is permanently changed to Sabbat. However, because of the ongoing
effects of “Fall of the Sabbat”, she will be considered independent as
long as Fall of the Sabbat remains in play, and become Sabbat when it
burns.
GUESS #3: “Fall of the Sabbat” does not change the default sect of
clans, but merely the sect of vampires. Therefore, when Lucretia
plays “Clan Impersonation”, the section 10 rule dictates that she
should become Sabbat. However, with Fall of the Sabbat in play, this
rule is over-ridden, and the change is prevented from occurring. She
becomes Lasombra, but her sect remains Camarilla. She will continue
to be a Camarilla Lasombra, even when Fall of the Sabbat is burned.
QUESTION #2: As above, except, instead of playing Clan Impersonation
and triggering the Section 10 rule, Lucretia becomes Sabbat via "Into
the Fire". Does she become Independent (per the reasoning in Guess #2
above) or remain Camarilla (per the reasoning in Guess #3 above).
[ quoted text not captured ]
IANLSJ but I'm feeling a bit stabby today, so...
Fall of the Sabbat
Gehenna.
Do not replace as long as this card is in play. Requires at least
three other Gehenna cards in play. Not playable if any ready vampire
is Black Hand. There is no Sabbat. Any Sabbat vampire is considered
Independent instead.
Clan Impersonation
Choose a clan when this card on the acting vampire. This vampire is
considered to be of the chosen clan instead of his or her original
clan (if any). This vampire can burn this card as an action.
Into the Fire
Choose a ready non-Sabbat vampire you control. That vampire becomes
Sabbat. (His or her clan is not affected).
The main thing to understand is that cards in play should be treated
like permanent layers of effects. This applies to Fall of the Sabbat,
Clan Impersonation, and card text on vampires.
Cards played once and not put into play are permanent, but they can be
altered by other "continuous" effects.
Situation #1: Fall of the Sabbat is in play. Lucretia (Camarilla
Nosferatu) plays “Clan Impersonation” to become a Lasombra. Later,
Fall of the Sabbat is burned. What sect is Lucretia now?
Fall of the Sabbat means that all Sabbat vampires are considered
Independent. It says nothing about changing the default sect of a
clan. Lucretia becomes Lasombra, and would normally become Sabbat.
However, since there is no Sabbat, she becomes Independent instead.
When the Meth controlling Fall of the Sabbat is ousted, that layer of
effect is removed so the Sabbat does exist again. However since the
Clan Impersonation layer of effect is still in play and the default
sect for Lasombra is Sabbat, Lucretia changes to Sabbat.
Situation #2: As above, except, instead of playing Clan Impersonation
and triggering the Section 10 rule, Lucretia becomes Sabbat via "Into
the Fire". Does she become Independent (per the reasoning in Guess #2
above) or remain Camarilla (per the reasoning in Guess #3 above).
Since Fall of the Sabbat is in play at the moment Lucretia is sent
Into the Fire, she becomes Independent as soon as the Trifle resolves.
Later, when Fall of the Sabbat is removed, Lucretia stays Independent
since there are no other layers of effects which are overriding other
cards in play.
Jeff
On May 10, 3:40 pm, Jeff Kuta <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IANLSJ but I'm feeling a bit stabby today, so...
>
> Fall of the Sabbat
> Gehenna.
> Do not replace as long as this card is in play. Requires at least
> three other Gehenna cards in play. Not playable if any ready vampire
> is Black Hand. There is no Sabbat. Any Sabbat vampire is considered
> Independent instead.
>
> Clan Impersonation
> Choose a clan when this card on the acting vampire. This vampire is
> considered to be of the chosen clan instead of his or her original
> clan (if any). This vampire can burn this card as an action.
>
> Into the Fire
> Choose a ready non-Sabbat vampire you control. That vampire becomes
> Sabbat. (His or her clan is not affected).
>
> The main thing to understand is that cards in play should be treated
> like permanent layers of effects. This applies to Fall of the Sabbat,
> Clan Impersonation, and card text on vampires.
I suspect you have gotten it wrong. I agree that "temporary" ongoing
effects, like Fall of the Sabbat, Writ of Acceptance, and Tegyrius'
allegicance counter, will create a "layer" under which a "permanent"
sect is preserved in an inactive state.
Clan Impersonation does not do this, however. The ongoing "temporary"
effect of "Clan Impersonation" is to change clans -- not change
sects. The "change in sects" results from the rule in section 10 of
the rulebook that I quoted. It is a permanent change does not depend
on the Clan Impersonation remaining in play.
However, burning the Clan Impersonation MAY (and usually does) result
in another change in clans, and therefore may trigger another
application of the rule from Section 10 of the rulebook -- yet another
permanent change in sect.
> Cards played once and not put into play are permanent, but they can be
> altered by other "continuous" effects.
Right. A change in sect that is derived from Section 10 of the rules
is really analogous to the sort of change that results from playing
"Into the Fire". It is simply a permanent change that lasts until the
next permanent change comes along.
> Situation #1: Fall of the Sabbat is in play. Lucretia (Camarilla
> Nosferatu) plays “Clan Impersonation” to become a Lasombra. Later,
> Fall of the Sabbat is burned. What sect is Lucretia now?
>
> Fall of the Sabbat means that all Sabbat vampires are considered
> Independent. It says nothing about changing the default sect of a
> clan.
It says "There is no Sabbat". This may merely be a redundant
statement of the rule that all Sabbat vampires are now considered
independent. It is at least arguable, however, that if "There is no
Sabbat" then the Lasombra clan cannot be part of this nonexistent
sect.
See section 10.2 of the rulebook: "... the Sabbat ... is composed of
15 clans: ...[& goes on to list them, including the Lasombra]" This
statement, and parallel statements regarding the Camarilla and Laibon
sects, are the basis of the "default" designation for various clans.
But if the Sabbat does not exist, it cannot be composed of anything.
Section 10.4 further states that if a clan is not aligned with "any of
the major sects" (Laibon, Camarilla, Sabbat) it is independent. But
after "Fall of the Sabbat" only two sects remain. It would seem to
follow that any clans not aligned with them are now independent.
But, for the sake of argument, I will assume you are correct -- that
fall of the Sabbat merely affects Vampires individually, and see where
it leads.
> Lucretia becomes Lasombra, and would normally become Sabbat.
> However, since there is no Sabbat, she becomes Independent instead.
I presume you mean that the change to default Sabbat clan takes
effect, but then is overridden by Fall of Sabbat, which causes
Lucretia, now a Sabbat vampire underneath, to be considered
independent. That is reasonable, in light of your premise.
> When the Meth controlling Fall of the Sabbat is ousted, that layer of
> effect is removed so the Sabbat does exist again.
Right.
> However since the
> Clan Impersonation layer of effect is still in play and the default
> sect for Lasombra is Sabbat, Lucretia changes to Sabbat.
Perhaps, but not because the "Clan Impersonation layer is still in
play". If her sect was changed to Sabbat, it was by operation of the
rule in Section 10 of the rulebook.
> Situation #2: As above, except, instead of playing Clan Impersonation
> and triggering the Section 10 rule, Lucretia becomes Sabbat via "Into
> the Fire". Does she become Independent (per the reasoning in Guess #2
> above) or remain Camarilla (per the reasoning in Guess #3 above).
>
> Since Fall of the Sabbat is in play at the moment Lucretia is sent
> Into the Fire, she becomes Independent as soon as the Trifle resolves.
> Later, when Fall of the Sabbat is removed, Lucretia stays Independent
> since there are no other layers of effects which are overriding other
> cards in play.
This seems illogical to me. If "Into the Fire" does not permanently
change her underlying sect to Sabbat, then there is no basis for your
conclusion that the ongoing effect of "Fall of the Sabbat" causes her
to be independent. But if her underlying sect were Sabbat, one would
expect this to be restored when Fall of the Sabbat were removed.
But if "Fall of the Sabbat" merely nullifies "Into the Fire", then one
would expect her to merely remain Camarilla.
On May 10, 4:36 pm, matt...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here is one more.
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4072...>
> Matt
>
> You could have looked youself.
Thanks for the references.
However, this does not fully answer the first part of my question.
Jeff Kuta wrote:
> On May 10, 10:34 am, nyst...@cs.com wrote:>> QUESTION #1:
>>
>> Fall of the Sabbat is in play. Lucretia (Camarilla Nosferatu) plays
>> “Clan Impersonation” to become a Lasombra. Later, Fall of the Sabbat
>> is burned. What sect is Lucretia now:
>>>> GUESS #2: “Fall of the Sabbat” doesn’t change the default sect of
>> clans, but merely the sect of vampires. Therefore, when Lucretia
>> plays “Clan Impersonation” and triggers rule 10, her “underlying sect”
>> is permanently changed to Sabbat. However, because of the ongoing
>> effects of “Fall of the Sabbat”, she will be considered independent as
>> long as Fall of the Sabbat remains in play, and become Sabbat when it
>> burns.
Guess #2 is correct.
>> QUESTION #2: As above, except, instead of playing Clan Impersonation
>> and triggering the Section 10 rule, Lucretia becomes Sabbat via "Into
>> the Fire". Does she become Independent (per the reasoning in Guess #2
>> above) or remain Camarilla (per the reasoning in Guess #3 above).
Per Guess #2.
> The main thing to understand is that cards in play should be treated
> like permanent layers of effects. This applies to Fall of the Sabbat,
> Clan Impersonation, and card text on vampires.
>
> Cards played once and not put into play are permanent, but they can be
> altered by other "continuous" effects.
>
> Situation #1: Fall of the Sabbat is in play. Lucretia (Camarilla
> Nosferatu) plays “Clan Impersonation” to become a Lasombra. Later,
> Fall of the Sabbat is burned. What sect is Lucretia now?
>
> Fall of the Sabbat means that all Sabbat vampires are considered
> Independent. It says nothing about changing the default sect of a
> clan. Lucretia becomes Lasombra, and would normally become Sabbat.
> However, since there is no Sabbat, she becomes Independent instead.
> When the Meth controlling Fall of the Sabbat is ousted, that layer of
> effect is removed so the Sabbat does exist again. However since the
> Clan Impersonation layer of effect is still in play and the default
> sect for Lasombra is Sabbat, Lucretia changes to Sabbat.
Effectively, yes, but the language of guess #2 above seems closer to the
"reality" of the situation, IMO.
> Situation #2: As above, except, instead of playing Clan Impersonation
> and triggering the Section 10 rule, Lucretia becomes Sabbat via "Into
> the Fire". Does she become Independent (per the reasoning in Guess #2
> above) or remain Camarilla (per the reasoning in Guess #3 above).
>
> Since Fall of the Sabbat is in play at the moment Lucretia is sent
> Into the Fire, she becomes Independent as soon as the Trifle resolves.
> Later, when Fall of the Sabbat is removed, Lucretia stays Independent
> since there are no other layers of effects which are overriding other
> cards in play.
Into the Fire adds the "Sabbat" permanent designation, which is occluded by The
Fall of the Sabbat. Once the Fall of the Sabbat leaves play, the underlying
Sabbatness is in force.
On May 10, 4:49 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Into the Fire adds the "Sabbat" permanent designation, which is occluded by The
> Fall of the Sabbat. Once the Fall of the Sabbat leaves play, the underlying
> Sabbatness is in force.
Thanks for the answers. I hope you don't mind a followup question.
Suppose there are two competing "temporary" effects, like Fall of the
Camarilla and Writ of Acceptance. I suppose the Fall trumps the
Writ.
But are there now 3 levels of sect, with the Fall occluding the
Camarilla status granted by the Writ, which in turn occludes the
actual permanent underlying sect of the vampire?
Or does Fall merely prevent the Writ from functioning?
To put it another way, if Fall of the Camarilla is in play, could a
Sabbat or Laibon vampire use the Writ to become Independent?
nys...@cs.com wrote:
> On May 10, 4:49 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>> Into the Fire adds the "Sabbat" permanent designation, which is occluded by The
>> Fall of the Sabbat. Once the Fall of the Sabbat leaves play, the underlying
>> Sabbatness is in force.>
> Thanks for the answers. I hope you don't mind a followup question.
>
> Suppose there are two competing "temporary" effects, like Fall of the
> Camarilla and Writ of Acceptance. I suppose the Fall trumps the
> Writ.
They don't directly compete, so Fall trumps Writ, yeah.
If they directly competed (two Clan Impersonations being the usual example), the
most recent effect layers on top.
> But are there now 3 levels of sect, with the Fall occluding the
> Camarilla status granted by the Writ, which in turn occludes the
> actual permanent underlying sect of the vampire?
>
> Or does Fall merely prevent the Writ from functioning?
The Writ Functions. So the vampires "visible" sect is Camarilla. And the Fall
functions, so that Cam vampire is treated as Independent while the Fall is in play.
> To put it another way, if Fall of the Camarilla is in play, could a
> Sabbat or Laibon vampire use the Writ to become Independent?
Effectively, yes (for as long as the Fall remains).
On May 10, 10:58 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> The Writ Functions. So the vampires "visible" sect is
> Camarilla. And the Fall functions, so that Cam vampire is
> treated as Independent while the Fall is in play.
Applying the same logical steps in the same order, it would seem that
Writ the trumps "Fall of the Sabbat". If a Sabbat vampire has the
writ, the Sabbat vampire's "visible" sect is Camarilla, so the Sabbat
vampire is unaffected by Fall of the Sabbat (ie. is not treated as
Independent.)
[ quoted text not captured ]
Sure, if the Fall is the Fall of the Sabbat, then naturally, it doesn't affect
the Camarilla status bestowed by the Writ.
The Fall in my answer above is Fall of the Camarilla.