Jyhad Rules Questions

Got my handy rules in the mail last night. They could be a little better written, had to go through them twice. A couple of questions... 1. Say a minion attempts to intercept and the active minion has a +1 stealth. Now the intercepting minion plays a card that gives +2 to the intercept. Can the active minion play *2* +1 cards to negate that? The rules seem to imply that cards are played in "alternating" fashion and that only *1* card can be played in response to another card. 2. When a minion plays a political card, just *when* can another minion attempt to block? The rules say before the "terms" of the vote. Does this mean before the political card is actually revealed or before the voting is done? 3. Can you play poltical cards during a blood hunt vote to increase your votes? 4. Do you refill your hand immediately after *every* card is played (except during voting)? So, during combat you can play a maneuver, then draw, etc... 5. The rules say that the games take ~3 hours (whatever that means) but it would seem to me that the games go quicker since your hand is constantly being refilled. What makes the games take longer than Magic? -- Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov

In article <32qclo$oa4@fnnews.fnal.gov> ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: >5. The rules say that the games take ~3 hours (whatever that means) but it >would seem to me that the games go quicker since your hand is constantly >being refilled. What makes the games take longer than Magic? Haven't played yet, but I would guess that the "blood pool" makes games last longer since it takes time to "power up" vampires to get them into play and it's also hard to replenish your blood pool, which can limit the number of actions you can perform, and so in some sense you have to play more "conservatively". Also, I would imagine that the "3 hours" mentioned in the rulebook probably refers to a multi-player game, rather than a 1-on-1 duel. -- Michael Wang mmwang@mv.us.adobe.com

In article <32qclo$oa4@fnnews.fnal.gov> ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: >Got my handy rules in the mail last night. They could be a little better >written, had to go through them twice. A couple of questions... This is not an Official Response (tm) -- I'm not sure if there is a Jyhad netrep yet -- I don't imagine Tom Wylie could possibly find the time to do it. The answers below reflect the way Jyhad was played when our group playtested the game. >1. Say a minion attempts to intercept and the active minion has a +1 stealth. >Now the intercepting minion plays a card that gives +2 to the intercept. >Can the active minion play *2* +1 cards to negate that? The rules seem to >imply that cards are played in "alternating" fashion and that only *1* card >can be played in response to another card. Good point. I believe the intent is to alternate 'one-ups' as opposed to alternating cards. >2. When a minion plays a political card, just *when* can another minion attempt >to block? The rules say before the "terms" of the vote. Does this mean before >the political card is actually revealed or before the voting is done? After a card is revealed and before the voting is done. >3. Can you play poltical cards during a blood hunt vote to increase your votes? Yes. Or cash the Edge. >4. Do you refill your hand immediately after *every* card is played (except >during voting)? So, during combat you can play a maneuver, then draw, etc... Unless a card explicitly says not to refill, you refill your hand immediately. >5. The rules say that the games take ~3 hours (whatever that means) but it >would seem to me that the games go quicker since your hand is constantly >being refilled. What makes the games take longer than Magic? One of the trickier aspects of the game is that you're sacrificing your *own* blood to take certain actions. You simply have a limited supply of blood, and the nastier cards will typically require blood to use. Therefore, cycling is not necessarily an advantage -- every card you use which requires blood payment brings you closer to death. Some other reasons: Jyhad is primarily a multiplayer game. It's more 'epic' than Magic, requiring (IMHO) more subtelty, patience, and finesse. Landslide victories are a LOT less common than in Magic (eg, there's no equivalent of 'mana constipation'). You may find that seemingly slow and innocuous maneuvers by your opponents are leading up to something much bigger... Have fun, Tom Fontaine

In a previous article, ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) says: >Got my handy rules in the mail last night. They could be a little better >written, had to go through them twice. A couple of questions... > >1. Say a minion attempts to intercept and the active minion has a +1 stealth. >2. When a minion plays a political card, just *when* can another minion attempt >3. Can you play poltical cards during a blood hunt vote to increase your votes? >4. Do you refill your hand immediately after *every* card is played (except >5. The rules say that the games take ~3 hours (whatever that means) but it > >-- >Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov > I have some question of my own. I just started so I'm having problems even phrasing the questions so they make sense. 6. The area I find most confusing is combat. If two minions get into a fight and have plenty of blood to survive does the fight end after one round automatically ( doing little damage ) unless one or the other plays a press or strike? 7. If so since both survived does that mean the action ( i.e. hunting ) succeded or not. 8. If the active minion does not play a combat card and then the blocking player does can the active player play one before damage dealing? 9. If the combat is continued by a press is the range determined over again or can a minion with a .44 blow away a prince if the prince can not get a manuver off? 10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? 11. Can you use 2 out of turn cards between one turn and the next? What if you would be able to use 2 master cards in a turn? 12. If a minion uses an activity card can they still bleed or hunt? If so would the +1 stealth on "Blood Bond" ( for instance ) apply only to the act of blood bonding? Well that's all for now ( not that I've run out of questions ). I enjoyed playing Jyhad with my friend even if we did have to make up rules as we went along. -- I.R.S. Employee 3BBB Summon Scion of Devils The X's below are equal to the greater of the power or toughness of a single creature blocking or being blocked by I.R.S Employee. X+1 / X+1

In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert Collins) writes: |> > |> |> I have some question of my own. I just started so I'm having problems even |> phrasing the questions so they make sense. |> |> 6. The area I find most confusing is combat. If two minions get into a |> fight and have plenty of blood to survive does the fight end after one |> round automatically ( doing little damage ) unless one or the other plays a |> press or strike? This is pretty clear. Combat only lasts 1 round unless someone presses. A strike card does not press but can be used in lieu of a vampire's inherent hand attack of 1 damage. There may be strike cards that also press but a strike card in itself does not continue combat. |> |> 7. If so since both survived does that mean the action ( i.e. hunting ) |> succeded or not. If a minion's action is blocked that action does not take place, instead the 2 minions go into combat. |> |> 8. If the active minion does not play a combat card and then the blocking |> player does can the active player play one before damage dealing? I would think so. |> |> 9. If the combat is continued by a press is the range determined over |> again or can a minion with a .44 blow away a prince if the prince can not |> get a manuver off? In the rules. Combat occurs at the same range in all the rounds. You only do the maneuvering before the first round of combat. This means that a minion with a ranged attack is at a great advantage over one without a ranged attack, especially if combat lasts for more than 1 round. |> |> 10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or |> do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? They just need to be ready (tapped or untapped); they can't be in torpor. They do not tap after voting. |> |> 11. Can you use 2 out of turn cards between one turn and the next? What if |> you would be able to use 2 master cards in a turn? I sounds like you've run into a card ability that overrides the rules. I would say that you still can't play 2 out-of-turn cards unless the special card says that you can. Can't remember the exact wording in the rules. Just use your own judgement as to which rules the card over-rides trying not to read more into the card than what it actually says. |> |> 12. If a minion uses an activity card can they still bleed or hunt? If so |> would the +1 stealth on "Blood Bond" ( for instance ) apply only to the act of |> blood bonding? What's an activity card? Can't help you on this one. |> |> Well that's all for now ( not that I've run out of questions ). I enjoyed |> playing Jyhad with my friend even if we did have to make up rules as we |> went along. |> -- |> I.R.S. Employee 3BBB Summon Scion of Devils |> The X's below are equal to the greater of the power or toughness of a single |> creature blocking or being blocked by I.R.S Employee. |> X+1 / X+1 -- Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov

ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: >In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert Collins) writes: >|> 9. If the combat is continued by a press is the range determined over >|> again or can a minion with a .44 blow away a prince if the prince can not >|> get a manuver off? >In the rules. Combat occurs at the same range in all the rounds. You only >do the maneuvering before the first round of combat. This means that a minion >with a ranged attack is at a great advantage over one without a ranged >attack, especially if combat lasts for more than 1 round. Actually I believe the rules state that the range is determined each round (starting at close). Under the "Establish Range by Maneuver" section: "If there is an uncancelled maneuver, the round of combat is at long range." Note it only states that the round is at long. Then later in the example under "Press" : "[Tiberius] uses the press to extend combat another round. Cassandra and Tiberius now exchange blows at close range, since Cassandra has already used the maneuver on her handgun." So establishing range must be done as the first thing every round of combat. -Ian -- *x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x*x* X X Ian P Cardenas X X "It can't rain all the time" X CS major at UIUC X X -JS X icardena@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu X

In rec.games.deckmaster ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert Collins) writes: >I have some question of my own. I just started so I'm having problems even >phrasing the questions so they make sense. >6. The area I find most confusing is combat. If two minions get into a >fight and have plenty of blood to survive does the fight end after one >round automatically ( doing little damage ) unless one or the other plays a >press or strike? Sort of. There are two issues. The first is how strikes work, the second is whether additional combat rounds are going to ensue. You normally have one strike. In the choose strike phase, you can choose to use a card, equipment, or your natural hand strike. You can only choose one of these methods. There may be additional limitations, depending on the cards you use. See 15.1, Choose strike. You can play cards which will grant you additional strikes. This allows additional damage during a single *round* of combat. If you want to continue the combat after all strikes in a round have been resolved, you must press. From the rulebook, 15.1, Press: "If you want another round of combat, then you must play a press." >7. If so since both survived does that mean the action ( i.e. hunting ) >succeded or not. Even though both survived, the action fails. From the rulebook, 15: "If a player's minion's action *is* blocked, the action is considered unsuccessful and no cost is paid attempting it, though any action card used is burned." Note that hunting by default has a +1 to Stealth, so you would have to use an intercept effect to block it. >8. If the active minion does not play a combat card and then the blocking >player does can the active player play one before damage dealing? This is my big issue currently with the rules: in what order are strikes declared? It can make a big difference in certain cases. I find no mention of this in the rules anywhere. Anyone care to comment? >9. If the combat is continued by a press is the range determined over >again or can a minion with a .44 blow away a prince if the prince can not >get a manuver off? While it's not explicit in the rulebook section on press, the example suggests that a new round begins with a default of close range, but maneuvers can again be used to determine range. The example says: "He uses the press to extend combat another round. Cassandra and Tiberius now exchange blows at close range, since Cassandra has already used the manuver on her handgun." This suggests to me that (a) there is a maneuver phase, but Cassandra doesn't have one available, and (b) the default range of the new combat round is close. >10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or >do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? In the rules section 17.1 voting, you get votes for each *ready* X.

In rec.games.deckmaster ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: >In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert Collins) writes: >|> 9. If the combat is continued by a press is the range determined over >|> again or can a minion with a .44 blow away a prince if the prince can not >|> get a manuver off? >In the rules. Combat occurs at the same range in all the rounds. You only >do the maneuvering before the first round of combat. This means that a minion >with a ranged attack is at a great advantage over one without a ranged >attack, especially if combat lasts for more than 1 round. Evidence please. In the rules, section 15.1, Establish Range by Maneuver, paragraph two, last sentence: "If there is an uncanceled maneuver, the round of combat is at long range." Note that it says "the round" and not "the combat". In addition, the example they give for press suggests that additional rounds caused by a press initiate a new maneuver phase that is, initially, at close range. Rollie

In article <32vm1v$bsp@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: > |> 10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or > |> do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? > > They just need to be ready (tapped or untapped); they can't be in torpor. > They do not tap after voting. I believe this is wrong. I though I read that you get votes for Princess, etc. that you control. In another part of the rules it says that vampires in torpor are still considered controlled. I also think that they can be either tapped or untapped, it doesn't matter. That's how I interpreted the rules. David ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Greenwald "We can print our own money here greenwal@bnr.ca If you let us do a piece on you BNR inc. Atlanta, GA We can take you to pieces" Paper Lies by Marillion

In article <3306n0$gmd@bmerha64.bnr.ca>, greenwal@bnr.ca (David Greenwald) writes: |> In article <32vm1v$bsp@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: |> > |> 10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or |> > |> do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? |> > |> > They just need to be ready (tapped or untapped); they can't be in torpor. |> > They do not tap after voting. |> |> I believe this is wrong. I though I read that you get votes for Princess, |> etc. that you control. In another part of the rules it says that vampires |> in torpor are still considered controlled. I also think that they can be |> either tapped or untapped, it doesn't matter. |> |> That's how I interpreted the rules. |> |> David |> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |> David Greenwald "We can print our own money here |> greenwal@bnr.ca If you let us do a piece on you |> BNR inc. Atlanta, GA We can take you to pieces" Paper Lies by Marillion I am going by the rules that I got sent to me in the mail for being a convocation member. The FAQ that comes with those rules implies that the rules I got are a later edition then the ones that come with the cards. It definitely says that the vampire has to be "ready". Vampires in Torpor are not ready. A "ready" vampire can be tapped or untapped. -- Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov

In rec.games.deckmaster greenwal@bnr.ca (David Greenwald) writes: >In article <32vm1v$bsp@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: >> |> 10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or >> |> do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? >> They just need to be ready (tapped or untapped); they can't be in torpor. >> They do not tap after voting. >I believe this is wrong. I though I read that you get votes for Princess, >etc. that you control. In another part of the rules it says that vampires >in torpor are still considered controlled. I also think that they can be >either tapped or untapped, it doesn't matter.

Tom Fontaine (thomas@tudor.com) wrote: : In article <32qclo$oa4@fnnews.fnal.gov> ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: : >Got my handy rules in the mail last night. They could be a little better : >written, had to go through them twice. A couple of questions... [...] : >1. Say a minion attempts to intercept and the active minion has a +1 stealth. : >Now the intercepting minion plays a card that gives +2 to the intercept. : >Can the active minion play *2* +1 cards to negate that? The rules seem to : >imply that cards are played in "alternating" fashion and that only *1* card : >can be played in response to another card. : Good point. I believe the intent is to alternate 'one-ups' as opposed : to alternating cards. Note that only *one* action card may be played, but no limit is set on the number of action modifier cards that can be played. No limit on reaction cards is set, either. : >2. When a minion plays a political card, just *when* can another minion attempt : >to block? The rules say before the "terms" of the vote. Does this mean before : >the political card is actually revealed or before the voting is done? : After a card is revealed and before the voting is done. I'm inclined to disagree -- note that the rules state "...must be blocked before the terms of the vote are set; otherwise, the voting begins." That implies to me that the blocking must be done *at least* before a vote is cast. Since the play of the card provides a vote, it can be argued that the voting call must be blocked before revealing the card. -- Clay Colwell (aka StealthSmurf) eris@bga.com "So *that's* what an invisible barrier looks like." -- from _Time Bandits_

I don't suppose there's a copy of the rules floating around on the net? I got some boosters today, but there are no start boxes left... HELP SOMEONE!!! -- Leslie M. Barstow III | Disclaimer: We don't need no stinkin' disclaimer! | WDPhoenix@aol.com | Organization: Wandering Damage. WDPHOENIX@delphi.com | Project: Try To Take Over The World.

In article <331dpf$p00@giga.bga.com> eris@bga.com (Clayton Colwell) writes: > >I'm inclined to disagree -- note that the rules state "...must be blocked >before the terms of the vote are set; otherwise, the voting begins." That >implies to me that the blocking must be done *at least* before a vote is >cast. Since the play of the card provides a vote, it can be argued that >the voting call must be blocked before revealing the card. > Nope to the last bit here. The play of the card provides a vote sure but it doesn't cast a vote... That vote may still be yes or no, (although why someone would call a vote and vote against themselves is beyond me...), so there is still the opportunity to block. -- WANTED: One (1) good signature file. Top Dollars Paid! Ross Bellinger Bellinge@Emr1.emr.ca

In article <32qclo$oa4@fnnews.fnal.gov>, Roberto Ullfig <ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov> wrote: > 2. When a minion plays a political card, just *when* can another > minion attempt to block? The rules say before the "terms" of the > vote. Does this mean before the political card is actually revealed or > before the voting is done? A lot of the political cards have text on them like "divide up four points between two Methuselahs". I would say stuff like that is "setting the terms of the vote". So, you'd block after the card was played, but before any of the decisions about *how* it's played are made. > 3. Can you play poltical cards during a blood hunt vote to increase > your votes? >4. Do you refill your hand immediately after *every* card is played (except >during voting)? So, during combat you can play a maneuver, then draw, etc... Some cards explicitly say "don't replace until after this combat". So yes, normally, during combat you can play a card that doesn't have such a restriction on it, draw another one, play it, draw another, et cetera. But, IMHO, if such a high percentage of your cards are combat cards that you can actually get away with this, you're begging to lose. >5. The rules say that the games take ~3 hours (whatever that means) but it >would seem to me that the games go quicker since your hand is constantly >being refilled. What makes the games take longer than Magic? You can't play cards that fast. I played my first game last night. You can play *one* Master card per turn, and each Minion can take one action per turn. I never had more than three Minions in play -- it's *expensive* to bring Minions under your influence, and if you spread yourself too thin, you become vulnerable. I went through a lot of turns without playing any cards at all, just using the cards that were already down on the table. -- Doug DeJulio ddj@zardoz.elbows.org http://www.pitt.edu/~ddj/

In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, Robert Collins <ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote: >I have some question of my own. I just started so I'm having problems even >phrasing the questions so they make sense. > >6. The area I find most confusing is combat. If two minions get into a >fight and have plenty of blood to survive does the fight end after one >round automatically ( doing little damage ) unless one or the other plays a >press or strike? A Strike won't do it. It has to be a Press. Yes, combat ends after one round. >7. If so since both survived does that mean the action ( i.e. hunting ) >succeded or not. The mere act of entering combat means the action failed, even if no damage is done. >8. If the active minion does not play a combat card and then the blocking >player does can the active player play one before damage dealing? The way I read it is this: each Minion decides what they're going to do in turn, starting with the Active one. So, the Active Minion can say "I'm going to do a strike with my hands, which requires no card". Then the reacting Minion can play a combat card. >9. If the combat is continued by a press is the range determined over >again or can a minion with a .44 blow away a prince if the prince can not >get a manuver off?

In article <3305cb$1kq@rosie.next.com>, Matt Rollefson <rollie@next.com> wrote: >>8. If the active minion does not play a combat card and then the blocking >>player does can the active player play one before damage dealing? > >This is my big issue currently with the rules: in what order are >strikes declared? It can make a big difference in certain cases. I >find no mention of this in the rules anywhere. Anyone care to comment? Page 31, "Chose Strike": "If weapons were not used to maneuver, then, after the range is determined, the player with the actingin minion first deicdes the manner in which the minion is blocking. Then the blcoking minion can respond by either using a weapon or using a strike card." The example on page 32 clarifies this a little. If a weapon *was* used to maneuver, you're forced to use that weapon. Otherwise, the vampire who was blocked declares their strike first. Then the vampire who's blocking declares their strike. This is useful to remember: if you use a gun to maneuver, you can't strike with a thrown sewer lid -- you have to use the gun. This came up in a game last night, before I'd figured that out. My foe blocked one of my Minions, and immediately played a Dodge strike. But I was going to cast a Tremere ritual on her, and was wondering if I still needed to burn the card since I knew she was dodging. So, we paused playing and looked it up, and since I was active, we decided I had to declare my strike first. My ritual went to the ash heap. -- Doug DeJulio ddj@zardoz.elbows.org http://www.pitt.edu/~ddj/

In article <332knk$oon@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, Doug DeJulio <ddj@zardoz.elbows.org> wrote: >In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, >Robert Collins <ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote: >>10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or >>do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? > >Any Minion that votes has to be a *ready* Minion (ie. untapped), and >voting does not tap them. Calling for a vote is an action, actually >participating in one is not. I made a big error here, by assuming I knew what "ready" means. It's explicitly defined on page 17. It just means the vampire is neither uncontrolled nor in torpor -- the fact that it may be tapped is irrelevant. -- Doug DeJulio ddj@zardoz.elbows.org http://www.pitt.edu/~ddj/

In article <332knk$oon@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, ddj@zardoz.elbows.org (Doug DeJulio) writes: |> |> >10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or |> >do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? |> |> Any Minion that votes has to be a *ready* Minion (ie. untapped), and |> voting does not tap them. Calling for a vote is an action, actually |> participating in one is not. A minion does not need to be untapped to be *ready*. At least in my rules it doesn't. |> |> >11. Can you use 2 out of turn cards between one turn and the next? What if |> >you would be able to use 2 master cards in a turn? |> |> This is tricky and came up in a game I played last night. I decided |> that even out-of-turn Master cards were included in the one Master |> card per turn limit. |> |> So, for example, I played my "Tremere Chantry" Master card during my |> Master phase, and drew a "Frenzy" out-of-turn Master card to replace |> it. I wanted to use it during my Minion phase that same turn, but |> decided since I'd already played my Chantry, I couldn't. If I had a |> card permitting me a second Master action each turn, I'd have decided |> I could have played it. |> |> I really don't know if this is the right way to do it, but it worked |> last night. You can't play an out-of-turn card during your turn. Each out-of-turn card sacrifices one of your next Master Phases so you can't play two of them unless you have 2 Master Phases somehow. This is pretty clear in the rules. |> |> >12. If a minion uses an activity card can they still bleed or hunt? If so |> >would the +1 stealth on "Blood Bond" ( for instance ) apply only to the act of |> >blood bonding? |> |> A Minion can perform an action any time during your Minion phase if |> they're untapped. Using an action card taps your Minion though, so |> they can't usually perform multiple actions (eg. hunting and bleeding) |> during one Minion phase. Some cards can change this though (eg. some |> Celerity cards). As I see it; an action card is played instead of doing one of the standard actions listed in the rules. What Celerity cards are you referring to? |> |> The stealth modifiers on an action card seem to generally be modifiers |> *FOR THAT ACTION*. I'd say the +1 stealth on a "Blood Bond" card |> wouldn't help you hunting. If your vampire plays a Blood Bond then that is his/her action for that minion phase and he/she is tapped. He/she cannot hunt or do any other actions listed in the rules. That is how we interpreted it though we may be wrong. |> |> -- |> Doug DeJulio |> ddj@zardoz.elbows.org |> http://www.pitt.edu/~ddj/ -- Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov

In rec.games.deckmaster stone@phoenix.cs.uga.edu (Robert) writes: >From eris@bga.com (Clayton Colwell) regarding "Jyhad Rules Questions" >>I'm inclined to disagree -- note that the rules state "...must be blocked >>before the terms of the vote are set; otherwise, the voting begins." That >>implies to me that the blocking must be done *at least* before a vote is >>cast. Since the play of the card provides a vote, it can be argued that >>the voting call must be blocked before revealing the card. >I agree with this. The game would be a little TOO combat oriented if >you got to block a vote after knowing what the vote was over. "Terms" to >me also implies "what the vote is for." I intend to play this way since it >will also make things more interesting if nothing else. I disagree. The game *is* rather combat oriented. Note also that all votes are called with +1 stealth, so you need intercept to be able to block one. I would argue that "terms" means any specifications that the Methuselah calling the vote specifies, such as for the vote "Regaining the Upper Hand" who is to receive the Edge if the vote passes. That is, the card should be revealed when the vote is called, but the person calling the vote can promise something to the effect of, "If you don't block, I'll designate you as the person to receive the Edge"; if the Methuselah in question doesn't block the action, the Methuselah calling the vote could just renege with no game mechanics penalty. Rollie

In rec.games.deckmaster ddj@zardoz.elbows.org (Doug DeJulio) writes: >In article <3305cb$1kq@rosie.next.com>, Matt Rollefson <rollie@next.com> wrote: >>>8. If the active minion does not play a combat card and then the blocking >>>player does can the active player play one before damage dealing? >>This is my big issue currently with the rules: in what order are >>strikes declared? It can make a big difference in certain cases. I >>find no mention of this in the rules anywhere. Anyone care to comment? >Page 31, "Chose Strike": [Answer to my question, right out of the rules, deleted.] Cool. Thanks. However, I'd like to make a recommendation: when quoting rules, don't use page numbers. This is because there are at least two different printed copies of the rules available: the small rulebooks distributed in the starter decks, and the larger printed rules distributed with the Duelist's Supplement. If people could quote section numbers (e.g. in this case 15.1, "Choose Strike") that would be handy. Thanks again for the answer; not sure why I missed that with my first two readings of the rules. Rollie

In rec.games.deckmaster bwilson@gate.net (Brian Wilson) writes: >Before I could do anything to stop it, Matt Rollefson wrote: >> This is my big issue currently with the rules: in what order are >> strikes declared? It can make a big difference in certain cases. I >> find no mention of this in the rules anywhere. Anyone care to comment? >Rule book, page 32: Please use section numbers instead of page numbers, since there are at least two different versions of the rules floating around and the page numbers are not unique. >Resolve Strike: Damage each round is dealt by mineons simultaneously during >this phase. >It's a lot like Magic in this. You get to play damage reduction cards, etc. >Seems like they mentioned a First Strike card or ability as well (just >read the rule book last night) There is a first strike ability. However, I was not asking about how strikes were resolved or damage assigned, but how strikes were chosen. This is not like Magic in that (as Doug DeJulio correctly pointed out in his followup to my post) the acting player must declare his strike first, whether that be an attack with hands, gun, ranged weapon, a dodge, or what have you. Then the blocking player declares his strike. Note that this gives the blocking player a huge advantage, as he gets to see what's coming before deciding to dodge, for example. IMO this should be reversed, and the blocking player should be forced to declare their strike first. However, that's the way the rules currently read. Rollie

In rec.games.deckmaster ddj@zardoz.elbows.org (Doug DeJulio) writes: >In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, >Robert Collins <ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote: >>I have some question of my own. I just started so I'm having problems even >>phrasing the questions so they make sense. >>8. If the active minion does not play a combat card and then the blocking >>player does can the active player play one before damage dealing? >The way I read it is this: each Minion decides what they're going to >do in turn, starting with the Active one. So, the Active Minion can >say "I'm going to do a strike with my hands, which requires no card". >Then the reacting Minion can play a combat card. Note that this is true for strikes. However, there are various combat cards which are neither strikes, nor maneuvers, nor presses. For example, Blur, a card which gives you extra strikes. I would say that this card can probably be played at any time during the choose strikes phase and before the resolve damage phase of combat. So it's worth your while to delay playing it until after the first set of strikes has been declared, so your opponent doesn't know what's coming. >>11. Can you use 2 out of turn cards between one turn and the next? What if >>you would be able to use 2 master cards in a turn? >This is tricky and came up in a game I played last night. I decided >that even out-of-turn Master cards were included in the one Master >card per turn limit. >So, for example, I played my "Tremere Chantry" Master card during my >Master phase, and drew a "Frenzy" out-of-turn Master card to replace >it. I wanted to use it during my Minion phase that same turn, but >decided since I'd already played my Chantry, I couldn't. If I had a >card permitting me a second Master action each turn, I'd have decided >I could have played it. >I really don't know if this is the right way to do it, but it worked >last night. I don't think that this is the right way to do it. The rules (section 7.2.1, Out-of-turn) read: "Out-of-turn cards you play when it is not your turn; however, if you play an out-of-turn card, you must sacrifice your master phase for the next round of play. You may not use another out-of-turn card if you're already used one for your master phase for the next turn." I interpret this to mean: 1: You can only play out-of-turn cards when it is not your turn. 2: Using an out-of-turn card sacrifices your entire master phase for the next turn. Thus even if you had a card that allowed you to play two master cards per master phase, you would have no master phase and thus could play no master cards. 3: Once you've sacrificed next turn's master phase, you can't sacrifice it again, nor can you sacrifice the master phase for the turn after next. Rollie

In article <332oqo$5ar@rosie.next.com>, Matt Rollefson <rollie@next.com> wrote: >In rec.games.deckmaster bwilson@gate.net (Brian Wilson) writes: >IMO this should be reversed, and the blocking player should be forced >to declare their strike first. However, that's the way the rules >currently read. It's probably vaguely based on the way combat works in "Vampire: The Masquerade". In Vampire, you roll initiative. The person who loses initiative *declares* their action first, so the quicker people can "anticipate" the behavior of the slower ones (then the quicker people actually *do* their actions first). In Jyhad, the "active" Minion isn't usually voluntarily entering combat -- they're trying to do something else, and they're suprised by the blocking Minion. So, it would be like the blocking Minion won initiative, so, the active Minion should declare action first. -- Doug DeJulio ddj@zardoz.elbows.org http://www.pitt.edu/~ddj/

In article <332mon$9l4@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) wrote: > > You can't play an out-of-turn card during your turn. Each out-of-turn card > sacrifices one of your next Master Phases so you can't play two of them > unless you have 2 Master Phases somehow. This is pretty clear in the rules. > There is a vampire, Anson, that let's you play 2 Master Cards per turn. This muddys the water a little. I would think a strict interpretation would say that playing an out-of-turn card makes you skip your entire master phase, therefore Anson doesn't even get the chance of letting you play another Master Card. I also wouldn't be surprised if the >intention< was that an out-of-turn card counts as the Master Card for your next master phase & therefor Anson will let you play another one during your next turn. -chad

Before I could do anything to stop it, Doug DeJulio wrote: > This is tricky and came up in a game I played last night. I decided > that even out-of-turn Master cards were included in the one Master > card per turn limit. By playing an Out of Turn Master card, you give up your Master phase on your next turn. You cannot play more than one Out of Turn card before your next turn and, when it comes, you don't get to play one then. -- There be that can pack the cards and yet cannot play | a-Henh! well; so there are some that are good in canvasses and | Brian Wilson factions, that are otherwise weak men. | Francis Bacon |

In regard to the previous post that mentioned Anson, might I suggest the humble acronym, RTFM (Read the Flipping Manual!) Okay, that prettied it up a bit... Seriously, the Golden Rule For Cards is very specific. If the card contradicts the rules, the card takes precedence. If an out-of-turn Master card is played, that would count as the first of the cards allowed by having Anson under control. The second card could either be a second out-of-turn card, or one taken during the normal Master phase. Randy

In article <336qtb$rp3@rain.org> randallp@rain.org (Randall P.) writes: Seriously, the Golden Rule For Cards is very specific. If the card contradicts the rules, the card takes precedence. Sure, but in this case there's no contradiction. Anson allows you to play 2 cards during your Master phase. The rules state that if you play an out of turn Master card, you /lose your Master phase/ for the next turn. To quote from section 7.2.1: Out-of turn cards you play whenever appropriate in lieu of your master phase for the next round of play. Remember you've used up your master phase for the next turn. [...] So Anson doesn't help you here, since you don't get a master phase. (Mind you, I can easily see this being reversed on the grounds of intent, but as it is, the card simply doesn't conflict with the rules.) AMBAR

randallp@rain.org (Randall P.) writes: >In regard to the previous post that mentioned Anson, might I suggest the >humble acronym, RTFM (Read the Flipping Manual!) >Okay, that prettied it up a bit... >Seriously, the Golden Rule For Cards is very specific. If the card >contradicts the rules, the card takes precedence. If an out-of-turn >Master card is played, that would count as the first of the cards allowed >by having Anson under control. The second card could either be a second >out-of-turn card, or one taken during the normal Master phase. But the rule for out-of-turn states "remember, you've used up your master PHASE for the next turn" Now if you don't have a master pahse, how can Anson let you play a Master card? WotC needs to clarify this, you could argue either way. -- | kreme@netcom.com \ 1015 South Gaylord, Denver, CO 80209 #100 | | PGP Fingerprint \ 1D 5E F7 C8 7E C2 F9 87 0F 86 C9 B0 D2 63 9C B2 | | [303/722-2009] Vox \ I haven't seen anything like that since the | | [303/777-2911] Data \ Pin~ata death duels on Nuevo Tiajuana!! |

1v$bsp@fnnews.fnal.gov> Just thought I'd have my 2 cents worth :) In <32vm1v$bsp@fnnews.fnal.gov> ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: >In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert C ollins) writes: >|> >|> 9. If the combat is continued by a press is the range determined over >|> again or can a minion with a .44 blow away a prince if the prince can not >|> get a manuver off? >In the rules. Combat occurs at the same range in all the rounds. You only >do the maneuvering before the first round of combat. This means that a minion >with a ranged attack is at a great advantage over one without a ranged >attack, especially if combat lasts for more than 1 round. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Quoting the example in the rulebook (p34): In the preceding combat Tiberius has a motorcycle, which gives one press a turn. He uses the press to extend combat another round, Cassandra and Tiberius now have to exchange blows at close range, since Cassandra has already used the manouver on her handgun. The rules state that **each** round of combat has all 5 phases, including the establishment of range. (p29) A press is used to start an entire new round of combat. The guy with a handgun still has an advantage, because if he can use a card to get extra strikes he can strike more than once with the gun (unless it can only be used once per combat like the sawn-off). : Neal Maloney : taliesin@sydney.DIALix.oz.au :

In rec.games.deckmaster ddj@zardoz.elbows.org (Doug DeJulio) writes: >In article <332oqo$5ar@rosie.next.com>, Matt Rollefson <rollie@next.com> wrote: >>IMO this should be reversed, and the blocking player should be forced >>to declare their strike first. However, that's the way the rules >>currently read. >It's probably vaguely based on the way combat works in "Vampire: The >Masquerade". >In Vampire, you roll initiative. The person who loses initiative >*declares* their action first, so the quicker people can "anticipate" >the behavior of the slower ones (then the quicker people actually *do* >their actions first). >In Jyhad, the "active" Minion isn't usually voluntarily entering >combat -- they're trying to do something else, and they're suprised by >the blocking Minion. So, it would be like the blocking Minion won >initiative, so, the active Minion should declare action first. OK, that makes some sense. I was going on the assumption that the acting minion could see the blocker coming, but when you think about it a bit it makes a lot of sense that the blocking minion would have an advantage on surprise -- lying in wait in ambush or whatever. So just one more thing to consider when taking an action -- if combat ensues, you'll be at a slight but distinct disadvantage. (This is especially relevant when the action you're taking is to directly attack another vampire or other minion, as was proved in the one five-player game I've been in. One opponent had gotten out a reasonably nasty vampire with a submachine gun and a retainer which provided +1 intercept. I was not happy about this, as he was my predator, so I played Haven Uncovered on the minion. I then did a directed attack with a relatively wimpy vampire armed with a flamethrower. He proceeded to play a First Strike Steal Equipment card on me after I had declared my strike. I was not happy...) Rollie

In rec.games.deckmaster chad_mcdaniel@taligent.com (Chad Ray McDaniel) writes: >In article <332mon$9l4@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto >Ullfig) wrote: >> You can't play an out-of-turn card during your turn. Each out-of-turn card >> sacrifices one of your next Master Phases so you can't play two of them >> unless you have 2 Master Phases somehow. This is pretty clear in the rules. >There is a vampire, Anson, that let's you play 2 Master Cards per turn. >This muddys the water a little. I would think a strict interpretation would >say that playing an out-of-turn card makes you skip your entire master >phase, therefore Anson doesn't even get the chance of letting you play >another Master Card. I also wouldn't be surprised if the >intention< was >that an out-of-turn card counts as the Master Card for your next master >phase & therefor Anson will let you play another one during your next turn. Actually I suspect that they knew what they were doing when they said "sacrifice your next master phase" as opposed to "give up your next opportunity to play a master card." I would agree on your "strict interpretation" of the rules and would say that this is how it should be played. Being able to play two master cards a turn can already be a pretty huge advantage, as it is *very* difficult to block master cards (I know of only one Master out-of-turn card which will allow you to cancel the effects of another Master card), whereas all minion actions can be blocked in a number of different ways. Rollie

I've got a question: Does sending a minion to torpor automatically end combat? Or can you sit there and womp on it until you run out of presses? Actually, I've got two questions: We ran into an odd situation last night; my oponent had a "retainer" (I forget the name of it) that he played on one of my minions. This retainer does 1 damage to the minion it's on each time the minion untaps. I also had Fame cast on this minion. At one point, the minion had escaped torpor, but had no blood and was tapped. When he untapped, the retainer did a point and send the minion back to torpor. So the question is, does Fame do a point of damage to me, since my minion wound up being in torpor as a result of something that happend during untap phase, which is when Fame acts, or does the minion have to start the phase in torpor for Fame to work? Also what happends to the minion in torpor with the pesty retainer? Does the retainer still do 1 point when the minion untaps in torpor? Does that tap the minion again? Does it anihilate him? OK, so that's three questions, sue me... ;-) Dave P.S. I'd appreciate it if you sent me an e-mail reply to this as my nn access is limited. shook@colorado.edu

In article <332lhu$ouh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, Doug DeJulio said something like: > In article <332knk$oon@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, > Doug DeJulio <ddj@zardoz.elbows.org> wrote: > >In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, > >Robert Collins <ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote: [...stuff about "ready" vs "untapped" deleted...] > I made a big error here, by assuming I knew what "ready" means. It's > explicitly defined on page 17. It just means the vampire is neither > uncontrolled nor in torpor -- the fact that it may be tapped is > irrelevant. We had a similar problem in my group. Several of us just *assumed* that "ready" equated to "untapped". Another point of confusion early on stemmed from the fact that the phrase "minion card" does not mean "a card that represents a minion". A minion card is a card that is played *on* a minion (a weapon or discipline, for example). Very confusing terminology. They should have picked some other phrase. I think "minion modifier" might have been better. -- Dougal Campbell | Check out the interQuest home page: System Administrator | http://www.iquest.com/ dougal@iquest.com | (Under Construction)

In article <333p93$6ih@worf.infonet.net>, <sprite@worf.infonet.net> wrote: >> 3. Can you play poltical cards during a blood hunt vote to increase >> your votes? > > My rules say that no cards can be played to interfere with a blood > hunt vote once it is declared. (Although I have a card that will > prevent bloodhunts from ever occuring to particular vampires.) When you throw away a political card to get a vote, it doesn't count as playing it. In my rules, the only actions forbidden during a diablerie vote are (1) playing action modifier cards and (2) playing reaction cards. This is because *this* vote doesn't count as an action. >>4. Do you refill your hand immediately after *every* card is played (except >>during voting)? So, during combat you can play a maneuver, then draw, etc... > >My rules say this is part of the discard phase, so I would imagine "no". Yes! This is explictly in section 11.4, under the title "The Hand". Unless a card tells you not to replace it yet, or you're in a vote, you replace cards *immediately*. So, if every card in your deck is a Press, and every card in your Prey's deck is a Dodge, you could burn through all of both decks on the 1st combat. -- Doug DeJulio ddj@zardoz.elbows.org

In article <33e1r8$8gf@vespucci.iquest.com>, Dougal Campbell <dougal@vespucci.iquest.com> wrote: >In article <332lhu$ouh@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, Doug DeJulio said something like: >> In article <332knk$oon@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, >> Doug DeJulio <ddj@zardoz.elbows.org> wrote: >> >In article <Cupzxz.7E@freenet.carleton.ca>, >> >Robert Collins <ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote: > >[...stuff about "ready" vs "untapped" deleted...] > >> I made a big error here, by assuming I knew what "ready" means. It's >> explicitly defined on page 17. It just means the vampire is neither >> uncontrolled nor in torpor -- the fact that it may be tapped is >> irrelevant. > >We had a similar problem in my group. Several of us just *assumed* that >"ready" equated to "untapped". Another point of confusion early on stemmed >from the fact that the phrase "minion card" does not mean "a card that >represents a minion". A minion card is a card that is played *on* a >minion (a weapon or discipline, for example). Very confusing terminology. >They should have picked some other phrase. I think "minion modifier" >might have been better. Wow, I'll have to look that up. I thought for sure "Ready" was the Jyhad terminology for "Untapped" (and controlled, of course)... Hmmm... That could change some things... :P ...Paul -- + + + + + + + + + + + Paul, cleggp@aol.com. yIlImQo'qu' Don't Panic! alt.galactic-guide yIlaD "When doth life leave the weary? 'Tis not death I fear, but the end of living." -- Paul

In article <33fq9b$3h5@usenet.rpi.edu> cleggp@core-dev1.eng.rpi.edu (...Paul) writes: >Wow, I'll have to look that up. I thought for sure "Ready" was the Jyhad >terminology for "Untapped" (and controlled, of course)... Hmmm... That >could change some things... :P No, "ready" is explicitly defined on page 17 (Starter booklet) as, "A minion in the active region is said to be *ready*". That means a tapped minion in the active region is considered ready and that an untapped minion in torpor is not considered ready. -- Michael Wang mmwang@mv.us.adobe.com

In article <333q0i$6on@worf.infonet.net> sprite@worf.infonet.net writes: >ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert Collins) writes: >>10. Speaking of princes during a vote do you automaticly get their votes or >>do they have to be untapped? If so does voting tap them? > >My rulebook says "1 for each ready Prince." And I believe "ready" is the >same as "untapped and in the active region." I do not believe a vampire in the active region has to be untapped to be considered ready. See page 17 in the Starter rulebook. -- Michael Wang mmwang@mv.us.adobe.com

cleggp@core-dev1.eng.rpi.edu (...Paul) writes: >Wow, I'll have to look that up. I thought for sure "Ready" was the Jyhad >terminology for "Untapped" (and controlled, of course)... Hmmm... That >could change some things... :P Ready means in the Ready area. This is one of the early questions in the Jyhad FAQ that was posted earlier this week. Jyhad uses "tapped" and "untapped" to mean tapped and untapped. -- | kreme@netcom.com \ 1015 South Gaylord, Denver, CO 80209 #100 | | PGP Fingerprint \ 1D 5E F7 C8 7E C2 F9 87 0F 86 C9 B0 D2 63 9C B2 | | [303/722-2009] Vox \ Maximum Aisle: "State of the art in long-term | | [303/777-2911] Data \ incarceration." Convicts Union Local #2134 |

sprite@worf.infonet.net writes: >ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes: >>2. When a minion plays a political card, just *when* can another minion attempt >>to block? The rules say before the "terms" of the vote. Does this mean before >>the political card is actually revealed or before the voting is done? >Before the voting is done, I would imagine. (Just opinion here.) No, the vote action can only be blocked BEFORE THE TERMS OF THE VOTE. This means before you decide who the target is, before anything you have to choose on the card is set. After that the action cannot be blocked. >>3. Can you play poltical cards during a blood hunt vote to increase your votes? >My rules say that no cards can be played to interfere with a blood hunt >vote once it is declared. (Although I have a card that will prevent >bloodhunts from ever occuring to particular vampires.) I think this means you can't play cards to BLOCK (interfere) a bloodhunt. Not that you can't play vote cards. >>4. Do you refill your hand immediately after *every* card is played (except >>during voting)? So, during combat you can play a maneuver, then draw, etc... >My rules say this is part of the discard phase, so I would imagine "no". No, you redraw after playing a card. Unless the card says not to. -- | kreme@netcom.com \ 1015 South Gaylord, Denver, CO 80209 #100 | | PGP Fingerprint \ 1D 5E F7 C8 7E C2 F9 87 0F 86 C9 B0 D2 63 9C B2 | | [303/722-2009] Vox \ I haven't seen anything like that since the | | [303/777-2911] Data \ Pin~ata death duels on Nuevo Tiajuana!! |

sprite@worf.infonet.net writes: >ai231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Robert Collins) writes: >My rulebook says "1 for each ready Prince." And I believe "ready" is the >same as "untapped and in the active region." Ready is in the ready region, it has nothing to do with tapped or untapped. -- | kreme@netcom.com \ 1015 South Gaylord, Denver, CO 80209 #100 | | PGP Fingerprint \ 1D 5E F7 C8 7E C2 F9 87 0F 86 C9 B0 D2 63 9C B2 | | [303/722-2009] Vox \ I haven't seen anything like that since the | | [303/777-2911] Data \ Pin~ata death duels on Nuevo Tiajuana!! |

: >>3. Can you play poltical cards during a blood hunt vote to increase your votes? : >My rules say that no cards can be played to interfere with a blood hunt : >vote once it is declared. (Although I have a card that will prevent : >bloodhunts from ever occuring to particular vampires.) : I think this means you can't play cards to BLOCK (interfere) a bloodhunt. : Not that you can't play vote cards. This is completely correct. The only cards you can play on a bloodhunt (if the hunt goes through in the first place) are political cards for votes.

mb7553@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Merrill Brick) writes: : : : >>3. Can you play poltical cards during a blood hunt vote to increase your votes? : : : >My rules say that no cards can be played to interfere with a blood hunt : : >vote once it is declared. (Although I have a card that will prevent : : >bloodhunts from ever occuring to particular vampires.) : : : I think this means you can't play cards to BLOCK (interfere) a bloodhunt. : : Not that you can't play vote cards. : : This is completely correct. The only cards you can play on a bloodhunt : (if the hunt goes through in the first place) are political cards for votes. Wrong. You cannot even play political cards during a call for bloodhunt, as it is NOT an action. This from the Duelists Convocation themselves.

In article <CvqH35.Jvs@iat.holonet.net>, Anton Dovydaitis <ishius@iat.holonet.net> wrote: >Wrong. You cannot even play political cards during a call for bloodhunt, >as it is NOT an action. This from the Duelists Convocation themselves. Wrong. Actually what they said was that Action Modifers and Reactions couldn't be played because the bloodhunt was not an action, but other political cards could be used as votes. -dave

dbower@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (David R Bower) writes: : In article <CvqH35.Jvs@iat.holonet.net>, : Anton Dovydaitis <ishius@iat.holonet.net> wrote: : >Wrong. You cannot even play political cards during a call for bloodhunt, : >as it is NOT an action. This from the Duelists Convocation themselves. : : Wrong. Actually what they said was that Action Modifers and Reactions : couldn't be played because the bloodhunt was not an action, but : other political cards could be used as votes. I have had this made clear to me in person by the Duelists Convocation during two tournaments I played in recently. Playing a Political Card as a vote is using it as a REACTION card, and hence is illegal. NO cards may be played for votes during an ordinary call for Bloodhunt whatsoever. None. All political cards are either actions, reactions, or action modifiers. I don't think you'll find anywhere in any version of the rules that cards may be played for votes during a bloodhunt. Anton

In article <Cvtpy7.6Kp@iat.holonet.net>, Anton Dovydaitis <ishius@iat.holonet.net> wrote: >I have had this made clear to me in person by the Duelists Convocation >during two tournaments I played in recently. Playing a Political Card >as a vote is using it as a REACTION card, and hence is illegal. > >NO cards may be played for votes during an ordinary call for Bloodhunt >whatsoever. None. All political cards are either actions, reactions, >or action modifiers. > >I don't think you'll find anywhere in any version of the rules that >cards may be played for votes during a bloodhunt. > I'm not going to dispute that a DC judge made this ruling. However, Political cards are not listed as reactions when being played, they are just played. The rules forbid reactions and action modifiers, but they just don't mention political cards at all. They don't say that no cards can be played, nor do they say that any cards can be played, they just don't say. What this DC judge said is a valid interpretation. Personally, however, I will play that the political cards can be used until such time as a ruling comes to me firsthand. After all, until then, we've all got to play our house rules. | If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--* | PC game, call the announce line at | jsciv@vt.edu | ** csipga@discus.ise.vt.edu ** | +-------------------------------------+---------------------------------- "Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK

In article <Cvtpy7.6Kp@iat.holonet.net>, ishius@iat.holonet.net (Anton Dovydaitis) writes: |> dbower@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (David R Bower) writes: |> : In article <CvqH35.Jvs@iat.holonet.net>, |> : Anton Dovydaitis <ishius@iat.holonet.net> wrote: |> : >Wrong. You cannot even play political cards during a call for bloodhunt, |> : >as it is NOT an action. This from the Duelists Convocation themselves. |> : |> : Wrong. Actually what they said was that Action Modifers and Reactions |> : couldn't be played because the bloodhunt was not an action, but |> : other political cards could be used as votes. |> |> I have had this made clear to me in person by the Duelists Convocation |> during two tournaments I played in recently. Playing a Political Card |> as a vote is using it as a REACTION card, and hence is illegal. |> |> NO cards may be played for votes during an ordinary call for Bloodhunt |> whatsoever. None. All political cards are either actions, reactions, |> or action modifiers. |> |> I don't think you'll find anywhere in any version of the rules that |> cards may be played for votes during a bloodhunt. |> |> Anton |> |> This was posted by: - Beth Moursund (bethmo@wizards.com) MTG-L NetRep of WotC (and JYHAD-L, at least for now) on Date: Tue, 30 Aug 94 01:09:59 -0700 ** Responses to Jyhad Digests #45-49 ** No-context answers... * If you have the Edge during your untap phase, you gain 1 pool. You don't have to give up the Edge for it. (Rules section 12.1) * Voting for a Bloodhunt is exactly the same as any other vote. Each player gets votes for the ready Primogens/Princes/Justicars they have, plus one additional vote for each vote card they burn. ... -- Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov

+ You cannot even play political cards during a call for bloodhunt, + as it is NOT an action. This from the Duelists Convocation themselves. + > Actually what they said was that Action Modifers and Reactions > couldn't be played because the bloodhunt was not an action, but > other political cards could be used as votes. +I have had this made clear to me in person by the Duelists Convocation +during two tournaments I played in recently. Playing a Political Card +as a vote is using it as a REACTION card, and hence is illegal. Playing a political card is _not_ a reaction. Section 13.2 of the corrected rules: "Reaction cards are played by an untapped minion and may only be used in response to another player's minion's actions." Section 17.1 (voting) "When...a call is made for a bloodhunt... . Additional political cards can also be used by any of the other Methuselahs for votes" [note: the word 'other' was ruled as not disqualifiing the one taking the action.] Playing a political card for a vote is merely an option you have duriing a vote which isn't any particular "kind" of action. I agree completely that if your judge said it, then that's the way it should be played for that game. It's still wrong, though. I've frequently pointed out mistakes judges have made after a match is over. No big deal. +NO cards may be played for votes during an ordinary call for Bloodhunt +whatsoever. None. All political cards are either actions, reactions, +or action modifiers. I can't find this in my copy of the corrected rules. I can find: Section 16.3 (Diablerie), last sentence: "This vote is not considered an action, so reaction and action modifier cards may not be played." Most people read this as a helpful reminder. You can't play 'Bewitching Oration' on the acting vampire to gain 4 votes since there is no acting vampire. You can't react with a 'Dread Gaze' to gain 4 votes since (as quoted above) you can only react to things _minions_ do. If you read it as a new rule, it still doesn't disqualify action cards, which is what all the "+1 vote" political cards seem to be. To sum up, the rules seem to make a point of saying you can use political cards for a vote during a bloodhunt in the section on voting, and don't say you can't in the section on bloodhunts. --

Anton Dovydaitis <ishius@iat.holonet.net> wrote: >I have had this made clear to me in person by the Duelists Convocation >during two tournaments I played in recently. Playing a Political Card >as a vote is using it as a REACTION card, and hence is illegal. This is incorrect. Burning cards for votes is not a reaction, so is legal during a bloodhunt. Any rulings made in the field should be taken with a grain of salt at this point. >I don't think you'll find anywhere in any version of the rules that >cards may be played for votes during a bloodhunt. Can you find anything saying you can't? Because the voting section starts out describing how you can get votes, and then specifically prohibits action modifier and reaction cards during a bloodhunt (policitical action cards are neither), any other manner of getting votes is legal. Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for aahz@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

In article <34o6fo$jsg@perv.hal.com>, Tom Wylie <aahz@hal.COM> wrote: >>I don't think you'll find anywhere in any version of the rules that >>cards may be played for votes during a bloodhunt. > >Can you find anything saying you can't? Because the voting section starts >out describing how you can get votes, and then specifically prohibits >action modifier and reaction cards during a bloodhunt (policitical action >cards are neither), any other manner of getting votes is legal. Frankly, after reading the rules through four times carefully and a large number of times in parts, I couldn't have told you with any certainty if vote cards were played by a Methusela or a minion, and if they were played by minion whether that minion was tapped. Where are the corrected rules? -- Kevin J. Maroney|kjm@panix.com|Proud to be a Maroney|Proud to be a Yonker Never send money to someone who has the language skills of a rutabaga.

In article <1994Sep9.194928.13055@wdl.loral.com> mab@dst17.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar) writes: >>In section 17.1 VOTING it says: "When a Political card is played or a >>call made for a BLOODHUNT against a vampire committing diablerie, a >>vote is called." This section then goes on the describe the procedure >>for counting votes, including the use of political actions cards for >>extra votes. >> >>No where in the section does it distinguish a vote for a political >>action from that for a bloodhunt. I'd say that the rule are unclear >>about this. The bloodhunt is distinguished elsewhere: Section 16.3 Encounter a Vampire in Torpor (no card required) Heading Diablerie (no card required) Paragraph 3: "...any Methuselah may immediately call a vote among all the Methuselahs to decide whether or not a bloodhunt will be called. [...] This vote is not considered an action, so reaction and action modifier cards cannot be played." This is a pretty clear nix on Action Mods and Reaction cards. Action Mods it makes sense to disallow, since the vote is clearly being called by the Methuselah and not a Minion. Reaction cards are probably disallowed for reasons of game balance, since they can't be played in your own turn (and therefore the diablerizing Vampire would be at an even greater disadvantage than before, since most instances of diablerie take plae in the minion's controller's turn). The question of Title Votes (Primogen, Prince and Justicar) is more up for debate. It's reasonable to believe that they are allowed since there's no required action on the parts of the minions themselves, they merely need to be ready. And, of course, Political Cards, when burned for votes, are not burned by a minion, they're burned by the Methuselah. What I'm trying to say is that there is about as much justification to prevent the use of Political Cards during a bloodhunt vote as there is to prevent Titled minions from casting votes. This would leave a pretty paltry set of options on exactly how one does cast votes (a set of no options, to be exact). As such, it seems entirely reasonable (and, indeed, even intuitive) that Political Cards should be able to be used during bloodhunt votes. My $.02 Josh Bluestein wabe@ftp.com

In article <Cvtpy7.6Kp@iat.holonet.net> ishius@iat.holonet.net (Anton Dovydaitis) writes: >dbower@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (David R Bower) writes: >: In article <CvqH35.Jvs@iat.holonet.net>, >: Anton Dovydaitis <ishius@iat.holonet.net> wrote: >: >Wrong. You cannot even play political cards during a call for bloodhunt, >: >as it is NOT an action. This from the Duelists Convocation themselves. >: >: Wrong. Actually what they said was that Action Modifers and Reactions >: couldn't be played because the bloodhunt was not an action, but >: other political cards could be used as votes. > >I have had this made clear to me in person by the Duelists Convocation >during two tournaments I played in recently. Playing a Political Card >as a vote is using it as a REACTION card, and hence is illegal. >NO cards may be played for votes during an ordinary call for Bloodhunt >whatsoever. None. All political cards are either actions, reactions, >or action modifiers. >I don't think you'll find anywhere in any version of the rules that >cards may be played for votes during a bloodhunt. In section 17.1 VOTING it says: "When a Political card is played or a call made for a BLOODHUNT against a vampire committing diablerie, a vote is called." This section then goes on the describe the procedure for counting votes, including the use of political actions cards for extra votes. No where in the section does it distinguish a vote for a political action from that for a bloodhunt. I'd say that the rule are unclear about this. -- Mark Biggar mab@wdl.lorla.com

Joshua Bluestein <wabe@ftp.com> wrote: >Section 16.3 Encounter a Vampire in Torpor (no card required) >Heading Diablerie (no card required) >Paragraph 3: >"...any Methuselah may immediately call a vote among all the >Methuselahs to decide whether or not a bloodhunt will be called. >[...] This vote is not considered an action, so reaction and action >modifier cards cannot be played." >This is a pretty clear nix on Action Mods and Reaction cards. Action >Mods it makes sense to disallow, since the vote is clearly being >called by the Methuselah and not a Minion. >Reaction cards are probably disallowed for reasons of game balance... Actually, reaction cards are disallowed since they're only used during someone else's minion's action (section 7.2.2). Since calling a bloodhunt vote doesn't involve an action, playing a reaction card would be illegal. This is one of the few places where the Jyhad rules list a rule redundantly, for clarification :) >The question of Title Votes (Primogen, Prince and Justicar) is more >up for debate. It's reasonable to believe that they are allowed >since there's no required action on the parts of the minions >themselves, they merely need to be ready. Only action modifiers and reactions are disallowed during a bloodhunt vote. Any other method of getting votes is legal. Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for aahz@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.