Non-Camarilla???????

Would someone please clarify this term? Is it clarified anywhere already (V:TES rulebook, someones web page, a duelist, etc.)? Can NC vampires vote? Can they call votes? It has been stated that they cannot become Archons or Camarilla Exemplaries unless the appropriate acceptance vote is called, is this official? Must they pay the blood to block an Archon or Cam. Exemp. (or would they just say "I don't care about you I'm not part of your club!")? Can they be the target of a vote that affects them as a clan? (Cons. Cond. to tap all "Giovanni/Ravnos", & they say "you can't tap us we don't play your political games!") As you can tell, I'm really in the dark on this issue and wish that a rule card had been included in the DS packs (just like legends). I realize that there is probably a simple answer, but please enlighten me :-) ~Biomechanoid

In article <4agaaa$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, biom...@aol.com (Biomech8) wrote: > Would someone please clarify this term? > Is it clarified anywhere already (V:TES rulebook, someones web page, a > duelist, etc.)? > > Can NC vampires vote? If they have votes (Regina Giovanni has 2 but no title, and they can do a Praxis Seizure to gain more). > Can they call votes? Unless explicitly banned by the card. > It has been stated that they cannot become Archons or Camarilla > Exemplaries unless the appropriate acceptance vote is called, is this > official? Given that Tom said it, yes. > Must they pay the blood to block an Archon or Cam. Exemp. (or would they > just say "I don't care about you I'm not part of your club!")? Good question. I personally would rule no, by the same logic that applies to allies. > Can they be the target of a vote that affects them as a clan? (Cons. Cond. > to tap all "Giovanni/Ravnos", & they say "you can't tap us we don't play > your political games!") Yes, they can. They can also be targeted by Consanguineous Boon, of course. > As you can tell, I'm really in the dark on this issue and wish that a rule > card had been included in the DS packs (just like legends). Agreed. J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.

In article <ewwa-11129...@portb13.chattanooga.net>, ew...@chattanooga.net (J. Andrew Lipscomb) wrote: > In article <4agaaa$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, biom...@aol.com (Biomech8) > wrote: > > > Would someone please clarify this term? > > Is it clarified anywhere already (V:TES rulebook, someones web page, a > > duelist, etc.)? > > > > Can NC vampires vote? > > If they have votes (Regina Giovanni has 2 but no title, and they can do a > Praxis Seizure to gain more). I thought Non-Camarilla vamps could not call Praxis Seizures unless they were "accepted." Judy

The following questions have been asked before, but since I haven't seen any written source for answers or a specific definition posted by you (Tom), I'd like to ask if you would please take the time to answer the following questions, or could you at least write a full definition which covers all aspects/restrictions of Non-Camarilla? Would please clarify Non-Camarilla? Is it clarified anywhere already? A friend says it's not in the V:TES rulebook... Can NC vampires vote? Can they call votes? Can they become Archons or Camarilla Exemplaries? Must they the blood/pool be paid to block an Archon or Cam. Exemp.? Can they be the target of a vote that affects them as a clan? Thankyou ahead of time. I must mention again that a rule card would have been nice to have included in the DS packs (just like "that one expansion" for that "other" game). ~Biomechanoid

Biomech8 <biom...@aol.com> wrote: >The following questions have been asked before, but since I haven't seen >any written source for answers or a specific definition posted by you >(Tom), I'd like to ask if you would please take the time to answer the >following questions, or could you at least write a full definition which >covers all aspects/restrictions of Non-Camarilla? From the Nov. 10 rulings: 2) Non-Camarilla vampires cannot be princes, although they can become primogen members. If a Non-Camarilla vampire begins with votes and later gains a title, she loses the votes she started with, just as if the vampire had lost a title. 3) Non-Camarilla vampires cannot call Praxis Seizures. They cannot call Justicar Retribution or Command of the Harpies, or call a vote to burn Elysium: the Arboretum. In addition, Non-Camarilla vampires cannot be chosen as an Archon or Camarilla Exemplary. >Can NC vampires vote? Can they call votes? No, and yes. >Can they be the target of a vote that affects them as a clan? They are considerd a clan for puroses such as Consanguienous Condemnation, yes. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

Tom, thanks for answering the questions that you did :-) But what about Archon and Camarilla Exemp.? I assume that a NC vampire cannot be either of them (without the acceptance) but what about being under their power, can a NC vampire block an archon without paying the one blood etc.? ~Biomechanoid

ew...@chattanooga.net (J. Andrew Lipscomb) writes: >In article <4b1ubm$a...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R >Wylie) wrote: <Snipped> >> From the Nov. 10 rulings: >> 2) Non-Camarilla vampires cannot be princes, although they can become >> primogen members. If a Non-Camarilla vampire begins with votes and later >> gains a title, she loses the votes she started with, just as if the >> vampire had lost a title. >Pray tell, what card is there that lets vampires become primogen at all? >J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> >PGP keys by request >Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian. Maybe it's just me, but this last comment sounded just a bit rude. Before you go off on someone, check around. If you had looked through Shane Travis' list, or asked around, you would have heard of _Of_Noble_Blood_. It's from Dark Sovereigns. Action Card, requires one blood. +1 Stealth Action, Requires a ready Primogen. Choose a vampire with a capacity above 5. Put this card on that vampire. The vampire is now a primogen of his or her clan. Not usable on Caitiff. "Noblesse Oblige" -Gaston Pierre Marc, Maxims and Reflections Now maybe I read J.'s comment wrong, and if so, I apologize, but as everyone knows, sarcasm and such don't come through very well in plain text. Now, on a side note, I have a question... Dark Sovereigns is muy cool, but does anyone know if it's selling well enough to warrant another expansion. I mean, we all want one, but is there ample cause for the WotC bean-counters to approve? Just curious- 'SCott -- / "If you're so special, then | Scott Danby, USC Class o' 95 \ | why aren't you dead?" | da...@scf.usc.edu | \ the Breeders, IJWGA | X-phile, Mistie, Tzimisce, Loyal Arachnid /

In article <ewwa-18129...@portb03.chattanooga.net>, ew...@chattanooga.net (J. Andrew Lipscomb) wrote: : Pray tell, what card is there that lets vampires become primogen at all? : : J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> : PGP keys by request : Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian. A new DS Card called Of Noble Blood. Text from Shane's DS Spoiler List (Thanks Shane!): Of Noble Blood Action 1 blood Requires ready Primogen. +1 stealth action. Choose a vampire with a capacity above 5. Put this card on that vampire. The vampire is now a primogen of his or her clan. Not usable on caitiff. A: Josh Timbrook Rarity: Uncommon The obvious use would be to create a Primogen for yourself. An interesting question, if Primogen is a title (like Prince, Justicar, or IC), could this card be used to force a vampire to have a reduction in title? For example, Lucretia (Nosfertau Primogen with +1 Stealth on all actions) plays Of Noble Blood on Alexandra, Toreador IC and the action succeeds. Alexandra is now no longer an IC, but is instead a Primogen, with 1 vote instead of 4. Is this a legal use of the card? Tom? Scott? Anyone? striving to help stephen beaulieu hi...@mail.utexas.edu

J. Andrew Lipscomb thoughtfully stated: : Pray tell, what card is there that lets vampires become primogen at all? Of noble blood, a DS card. Ewok -- //\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\ / Ewok Juan Burwell \ \ jmbu...@unix.amherst.edu jmbu...@amherst.edu / \\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\//

Hi J. Andrew, On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, J. Andrew Lipscomb wrote: > Pray tell, what card is there that lets vampires become primogen at all? > > J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> > PGP keys by request > Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian. It is a DS card, "Of Noble Blood", +1 stealth action, requires a ready primogen. :Choose a vampire with a capacity above 5. Put this card on that vampire. The vampire is now a primogen of his or her clan. Not usable on Catiff. So it would appear that the Primogen member does not have to be the one to take the action, and that the one recieving the card (new primogen) does not have to be declared until after the action succeeds. Correct? Tom? Algustas *****Sometimes party loyalty asks too much.***** John F. Kennedy

In article <4b4jf2$k...@nunki.usc.edu>, da...@nunki.usc.edu (Scott Danby) writes: >Dark Sovereigns is muy cool, but does anyone know if it's selling well enough >to warrant another expansion. I mean, we all want one, but is there ample >cause for the WotC bean-counters to approve? Just curious- It seems to be selling rather quickly around here, but I think that's because of the small original orders. I'm curious what WotC's expected sales were and if they consider DS sales successful. I'm hoping that Ancient Hearts is already in design stages, I don't know what the whole process consists of... But if WotC needs a play tester, a proof reader, or an artist I'd be happy to help :-) ~Biomechanoid

In article <4b1ubm$a...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: > Biomech8 <biom...@aol.com> wrote: > >The following questions have been asked before, but since I haven't seen > >any written source for answers or a specific definition posted by you > >(Tom), I'd like to ask if you would please take the time to answer the > >following questions, or could you at least write a full definition which > >covers all aspects/restrictions of Non-Camarilla? > > From the Nov. 10 rulings: > > 2) Non-Camarilla vampires cannot be princes, although they can become > primogen members. If a Non-Camarilla vampire begins with votes and later > gains a title, she loses the votes she started with, just as if the > vampire had lost a title. Pray tell, what card is there that lets vampires become primogen at all? [ quoted text not captured ]

Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote: : 2) Non-Camarilla vampires cannot be princes, although they can become : primogen members. If a Non-Camarilla vampire begins with votes and later : gains a title, she loses the votes she started with, just as if the : vampire had lost a title. : >Can NC vampires vote? Can they call votes? : No, and yes. If NC vampires cannot vote, why do some NC vampires start with votes, and why would such a vampire be made a Primogen? In short, are the card editors idiots, to give vampires who cannot vote votes, is this a typo, or is it an answer to a different question? Does this mean that NC vampires cannot play cards to gain votes? Also, just to make it absolutely clear to me, all the stuff you talked about above stops when the NC vampire becomes a Camarilla vampire by way of the appropriate Acceptance vote, yes? I'd assume so, but one can never be absolutely sure. Oh, and I don't actually think that any of the people at WotC are idiots, regardless of how it sounded above. Consider this whole message to be smiley captioned. Just me. -- Richard Kenan Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!eefacdk Internet: eef...@prism.gatech.edu

In article <4b5lhn$7...@hustle.rahul.net>, Bradley Kellogg <br...@rahul.net> writes: >WotC Needs MANY playtesters for the next expansion! They need people who >play the game and use all different types of strategies. The new >expansion has to have enough cards for Assamites and Followers of Set AND >keep the Giovanni and Ravnos clans going AND come up with new vamps for >each clan AND make more than one card for each "old discipline" AND have >new master and vote cards. This seems impossible but if anyone can do >it, WotC can. I would be willing to wait a lot longer and have a great >expansion rather than an expansion that came out quick with just a few >cards. I must agree with you :-) I only hope they don't 1) put out something quickly before interest level drops, which I don't think it will or 2) start huge expansion plans with tons of cards and then realize they bit of more than they could chew or 3) decide that V:TES just isn't cutting it and drop it. What I would like to see is a well thought out expansion that supports all existing clans and makes the Assamites and Followers of Set equally as powerful as the other clans. I'm looking forward to the expansion, but I'm willing to wait for quality :-)

Biomech8 (biom...@aol.com) wrote: : In article <4b4jf2$k...@nunki.usc.edu>, da...@nunki.usc.edu (Scott Danby) : writes: [ quoted text not captured ] : ~Biomechanoid WotC Needs MANY playtesters for the next expansion! They need people who play the game and use all different types of strategies. The new expansion has to have enough cards for Assamites and Followers of Set AND keep the Giovanni and Ravnos clans going AND come up with new vamps for each clan AND make more than one card for each "old discipline" AND have new master and vote cards. This seems impossible but if anyone can do it, WotC can. I would be willing to wait a lot longer and have a great expansion rather than an expansion that came out quick with just a few cards. There were way to many new cards that made rulings confusing. If people do not use the Internet or Magazines than they have no idea what "non-camarilla" means and what the limits are. Bravo for DS, but make Ancient Hearts a lot better. br...@kellco.com

In article <4b78ua$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, biom...@aol.com (Biomech8) writes: >What I would like to see is a well thought out expansion that supports all >existing clans and makes the Assamites and Followers of Set equally as >powerful as the other clans. I'm looking forward to the expansion, but >I'm willing to wait for quality :-) > > > This isn't realistic. In OnTE, each expansion adds something new and contains a card or two that harks back to the base set. Really, that's the best an expansion can do; WotC learned their lesson w/big expansions that try to remake the game. If the next V:TES expansion puts Assamites and FoS into the game and does just that (and does it well), I for one will be happy.

In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.951218171637.14098A-100000@ccserver>, Algustas <cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote: > Hi J. Andrew, > > On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, J. Andrew Lipscomb wrote: > > > Pray tell, what card is there that lets vampires become primogen at all? > > > > J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> > > PGP keys by request > > Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian. > > It is a DS card, "Of Noble Blood", +1 stealth action, requires a > ready primogen. > :Choose a vampire with a capacity above 5. Put this card > on that vampire. The vampire is now a primogen of his or her > clan. Not usable on Catiff. > > So it would appear that the Primogen member does not have to be > the one to take the action, and that the one recieving the card (new > primogen) does not have to be declared until after the action succeeds. > Correct? Tom? OK, I missed that one in the list. But the bit about not being usable on Caitiffs strikes me as odd, given that from all current rulings, a Caitiff can become a prince! [ quoted text not captured ]

RICHARD KENAN <eef...@acmex.gatech.edu> wrote: >: >Can NC vampires vote? Can they call votes? >: No, and yes. >If NC vampires cannot vote, why do some NC vampires start with votes, >and why would such a vampire be made a Primogen? In short, are the >card editors idiots, to give vampires who cannot vote votes, is this >a typo, or is it an answer to a different question? I'm an idiot for reversing the answers to the questions. NC vampires may not take political actions, but may contribute any votes they do have to actions taken by others. >Also, just to make it absolutely clear to me, all the stuff you talked >about above stops when the NC vampire becomes a Camarilla vampire by >way of the appropriate Acceptance vote, yes?... Yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

Biomech8 <biom...@aol.com> wrote: >But what about Archon and Camarilla Exemp.? >I assume that a NC vampire cannot be either of them (without the >acceptance)... Correct. >but what about being under their power, can a NC vampire block >an archon without paying the one blood etc.? At present, we aren't inclined to exempt NC vampires from paying the toll. (I believe the 1 blood is meant to represent hassles your vampire has to put up with a result of messing with one of the Cam's little darlings. An NC vampire who's close enough to the eternal struggle to be recruited by a Methuselah would be close enough to be affected by this sort of thing.) [ quoted text not captured ]

Stephen Beaulieu <hi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >Of Noble Blood Action 1 blood > Requires ready Primogen. +1 stealth action. > Choose a vampire with a capacity above 5. Put this card on that > vampire. The vampire is now a primogen of his or her clan. Not usable > on caitiff. > A: Josh Timbrook Rarity: Uncommon > >An interesting question, if Primogen is a title (like Prince, Justicar, or >IC), could this card be used to force a vampire to have a reduction in >title? Yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

Algustas <cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote: > It is a DS card, "Of Noble Blood", +1 stealth action, requires a >ready primogen. > :Choose a vampire with a capacity above 5. Put this card > on that vampire. The vampire is now a primogen of his or her > clan. Not usable on Catiff. > > So it would appear that the Primogen member does not have to be >the one to take the action, and that the one recieving the card (new >primogen) does not have to be declared until after the action succeeds. >Correct? Tom? "Requires a ready primogen" means that the action must be taken by a ready primogen, as usual for "requires a blah" wordings. You don't choose the vampire to be pro/demoted until it's clear the action won't be blocked, as usual for the terms of votes. [ quoted text not captured ]

Bradley Kellogg (br...@rahul.net) wrote: : WotC Needs MANY playtesters for the next expansion! They need people who : play the game and use all different types of strategies. The new : expansion has to have enough cards for Assamites and Followers of Set AND : keep the Giovanni and Ravnos clans going AND come up with new vamps for : each clan AND make more than one card for each "old discipline" AND have : new master and vote cards. This seems impossible but if anyone can do : it, WotC can. I would be willing to wait a lot longer and have a great : expansion rather than an expansion that came out quick with just a few : cards. There were way to many new cards that made rulings confusing. If : people do not use the Internet or Magazines than they have no idea what : "non-camarilla" means and what the limits are. Bravo for DS, but make : Ancient Hearts a lot better. Any given VTES expansion should have at least [but probably not much more than]: 12 vampires of every new clan started in that expansion 8-10 cards [retainers, actions, everything] for each new discipline 3-6 cards [again everything] for each new clan 2-4 vampires for every old clan [the exception to this would be to add at least 4 Giovanni and Ravnos in the next expansion, as they didn't get enough vampires to make decks wholly of them in the first place]. 1-2 cards for every old discipline [no discipline should get more cards than another] 1-2 cards for every old clan [again, equal distribution]. 12-25 generic new cards that require no clan or discipline [although some of the political actions and masters may require P/J/IC...] Anyone like this formula? This would put Ancient Hearts at 99-155 cards if I added it up right; a 120-card expansion or so is NOT too small... -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | "What is a man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, | | man would die from a great loneliness of spirit." | | "Confuse, annoy, and dee-STROY!!" Call me "Nicole" and I | | npu...@tiger.lsu.edu -- Jet...@aol.com will have to kill you. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <4b7p7u$d...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes: >>but what about being under their power, can a NC vampire block >>an archon without paying the one blood etc.? > >At present, we aren't inclined to exempt NC vampires from paying the toll. >(I believe the 1 blood is meant to represent hassles your vampire has to >put up with a result of messing with one of the Cam's little darlings. >An NC vampire who's close enough to the eternal struggle to be recruited >by a Methuselah would be close enough to be affected by this sort of thing.) Thanks for the answers Tom :-) I noticed the "at present" and must say that I think that they shouldn't have to put up with the "hassle" for the same reason a Garou or any other ally wouldn't. Just my 2 pool :-) ~Biomechanoid

biom...@aol.com (Biomech8) wrote: >It seems to be selling rather quickly around here, but I think that's >because of the small original orders. I'm curious what WotC's expected >sales were and if they consider DS sales successful. I'm hoping that >Ancient Hearts is already in design stages, I don't know what the whole >process consists of... But if WotC needs a play tester, a proof reader, or >an artist I'd be happy to help :-) its sellin' quick here too... lots better than that majik crap... (I've converted the city)... And I'm sure nearly anyof us would playtest a new expansion fer em... ~mage bob

Hear ye! Hear ye! <4b7pj6$d...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie), the great and noble sovereign, articulated: #RICHARD KENAN <eef...@acmex.gatech.edu> wrote: # #I'm an idiot for reversing the answers to the questions. NC vampires #may not take political actions, but may contribute any votes they do #have to actions taken by others. really? wow. can't call a vote, but can vote if someone else calls it eh? nc vamps now make more sense. -- Greg Zuvich |gzu...@symantec.com "Put your soul in the water and join me for a swim tonight." Live - Mental Jewelry "Beauty of Gray"

In article <4b9bi9$3a...@tiger4.ocs.lsu.edu>, npu...@tiger.lsu.edu (Nicole Janine Purvis) wrote: > Any given VTES expansion should have at least [but probably not much > more than]: > 12 vampires of every new clan started in that expansion > 8-10 cards [retainers, actions, everything] for each new discipline > 3-6 cards [again everything] for each new clan > 2-4 vampires for every old clan [the exception to this would be to add > at least 4 Giovanni and Ravnos in the next expansion, as they didn't get > enough vampires to make decks wholly of them in the first place]. > 1-2 cards for every old discipline [no discipline should get more cards > than another] > 1-2 cards for every old clan [again, equal distribution]. > 12-25 generic new cards that require no clan or discipline [although > some of the political actions and masters may require P/J/IC...] > > Anyone like this formula? This would put Ancient Hearts at 99-155 cards > if I added it up right; a 120-card expansion or so is NOT too small... Pretty good. I'd say less vampires for the already existing clans (1-3) and more cards for each new discipline (10-12), but basicly I agree. Well thought out. I wonder if anyone from WotC likes it... Tom? ;) Read ya later, "I can send and receive e-mail even over the Internet"-aol commercial @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ # Adrian Sullivan sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu Spoutingly yours 8^) # $ GAT/CS/O/WS R+++* tv&--- b++(+++)&+ t X++&-- 5->? e+*>++++ PS+&-+ @ # PE&++&- C(+++)$ UX+>+++$ N++(+) K+>++++ w---$>? M++$ r(+) y*+? 3.1# @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$

The Corrupter (sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu) wrote: : In article <4b9bi9$3a...@tiger4.ocs.lsu.edu>, npu...@tiger.lsu.edu : (Nicole Janine Purvis) wrote: : > Any given VTES expansion should have at least [but probably not much : > more than]: : > 12 vampires of every new clan started in that expansion : > 8-10 cards [retainers, actions, everything] for each new discipline : > 3-6 cards [again everything] for each new clan : > 2-4 vampires for every old clan [the exception to this would be to : add : > at least 4 Giovanni and Ravnos in the next expansion, as they didn't : get : > enough vampires to make decks wholly of them in the first place]. : > 1-2 cards for every old discipline [no discipline should get more : cards : > than another] : > 1-2 cards for every old clan [again, equal distribution]. : > 12-25 generic new cards that require no clan or discipline [although : > some of the political actions and masters may require P/J/IC...] : > : > Anyone like this formula? This would put Ancient Hearts at 99-155 : cards : > if I added it up right; a 120-card expansion or so is NOT too small... : Pretty good. I'd say less vampires for the already existing clans (1-3) : and more cards for each new discipline (10-12), but basicly I agree. : Well thought out. I wonder if anyone from WotC likes it... Tom? ;) Thanks. However, looking it over, I realize the "generic" is too small; at the lower end, 1 out of every 8 cards will be generic, too few. At the higher, 1 out of every 6; still not high enough. It should be changed, I think to 20-40 cards. [Making 1:5 at the low end and almost 1:5 at the high end]. [ quoted text not captured ]

I was thinking that they should have two types of expation set .One would add two new clans and focus on them so that they have the same amount of vampire and discipline cards as the other clans.The other type would just have stuff for the old clans this would allow clans like Ravnos and Giovani a chance to chech up and still give older clans new cards.Eventually it will be impossible to keep adding two new clans and give stuff to all the old ones. Olethros

Greg Zuvich (gzu...@symantec.com) wrote: : Hear ye! Hear ye! <4b7pj6$d...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R : Wylie), the great and noble sovereign, articulated: : #RICHARD KENAN <eef...@acmex.gatech.edu> wrote: : # : #I'm an idiot for reversing the answers to the questions. NC vampires : #may not take political actions, but may contribute any votes they do : #have to actions taken by others. : really? wow. can't call a vote, but can vote if someone else calls it eh? nc : vamps now make more sense. Yes, this makes sense to me, too. They're not part of the Camarilla, so they can't come out and put a subject formally up for debate to get it on the political agenda, but they can exert influence on what the Camarilla decides to do by covertly manipulating some of its members. At least that's how *I* read it. [ quoted text not captured ]

Pete Giannopoulos (Olet...@bighorn.accessnv.com) wrote: : I was thinking that they should have two types of expation set .One [ quoted text not captured ] Eventually they should stop having new expansions. I think Magic should honestly have stopped at the Dark, maybe even Legends. While some cards printed after have been unique and helpful, most [counting FE, IA, HL and Cr--I'd say 70% or more of those] have seemed like the creators said "Ugh, I can't think of anything else, here, let's throw this in." I don't want to see Jyhad end up like this. One or two more expansions--enough to explore the Sabbat, Assamites, Settites at least--and that should be it. There will be enough meaningful cards to keep the game interesting for a long time, but not so many that it gets bogged down. Like I mentioned previously, Jyhad survived all this time [and probably would have continued for a good while, too] with only the basic 438 cards in the set... : Olethros [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4bhtgi$1d...@tiger4.ocs.lsu.edu>, npu...@tiger.lsu.edu (Nicole Janine Purvis) writes: > Pete Giannopoulos (Olet...@bighorn.accessnv.com) wrote: > : I was thinking that they should have two types of expation set .One > : would add two new clans and focus on them so that they have the same > : amount of vampire and discipline cards as the other clans.The other type > : would just have stuff for the old clans this would allow clans like Ravnos > : and Giovani a chance to chech up and still give older clans new cards.Eventually > : it will be impossible to keep adding two new clans and give stuff to all the old > : ones. > > Eventually they should stop having new expansions. Unlike Magic, Jyhad is actually *based* upon something, and thus, when the clans run out, so to does the possibility for expansion. While it is possible, even likely, that WotC will make a third expansion based upon the Salubri and the Daughters of Caccaphony (Whoo-hooo! 12 vampires in the clan, all of them capacity 7, none higher, and none lower. Oh, and we didn't have enough toreador clan cards either, or maybe swap them with the Samedi, I think the DoC aren't a real clan or something), and a `sabbat' expansion based upon the arch depravities of the Tzimisce and the Lasombra would be both doable and interesting, that's IT. There wouldn't be any more expansions, because they would have completely run out of clans. You could presumably go on and on with regional expansions, that would be basically pointless. The fact is that with a lack of new clans to make, the expansion set possibilities dry up. I think Magic should > honestly have stopped at the Dark, maybe even Legends. While some cards > printed after have been unique and helpful, most [counting FE, IA, HL and > Cr--I'd say 70% or more of those] have seemed like the creators said > "Ugh, I can't think of anything else, here, let's throw this in." Right, but Jyhad has a limited source pool to draw off of, and I personally doubt that Obeah is such an interesting discipline that it would require 12 7 capacity vampires to showcase it. OTOH, the Samedi, who know Necromancy AND Thanitosis would be a welcome expansion... > I don't want to see Jyhad end up like this. One or two more > expansions--enough to explore the Sabbat, Assamites, Settites at > least--and that should be it. There will be enough meaningful cards to > keep the game interesting for a long time, but not so many that it gets > bogged down. Like I mentioned previously, Jyhad survived all this time > [and probably would have continued for a good while, too] with only the > basic 438 cards in the set... > > Don't worry your pointed little head about it one bit. > : Olethros Ritaxis -- "Every message you leave on this answering machine, teaches YOU shaolin kung fu."

-> Unlike Magic, Jyhad is actually *based* upon something, and -> thus, when -> the clans run out, so to does the possibility for expansion. While it <snip> -> or something), and a `sabbat' expansion based upon the arch -> depravities of the Tzimisce and the Lasombra would be both doable and -> interesting, that's IT. There wouldn't be any more expansions, -> because they would have completely run out of clans. Don't forget that Vampire: the Masquerade is itself an ongoing game. Who says that White Wolf won't release a sourcebook tomorrow with half a dozen clans they 'forgot' to include (gotta pay them bills). -> I think Magic should -> > honestly have stopped at the Dark, maybe even Legends. While some -> cards > printed after have been unique and helpful, most [counting -> FE, IA, HL and > Cr--I'd say 70% or more of those] have seemed like -> the creators said > "Ugh, I can't think of anything else, here, let's -> throw this in." Not to turn this into a MtG debate, but HL has led me to conclude that WotC is running dry on new ideas. FE was OK (ingredients for coherent, playable theme decks) and IA had some juicy singles (Deflection!!!), but HL was a waste of trees. -> Right, but Jyhad has a limited source pool to draw off of, and -> I -> personally doubt that Obeah is such an interesting discipline that it -> would require 12 7 capacity vampires to showcase it. OTOH, the -> Samedi, who know Necromancy AND Thanitosis would be a welcome -> expansion... A discipline based on bad breath?

TONY RICARDI (tony.r...@swcbbs.com) wrote: : -> Right, but Jyhad has a limited source pool to draw off of, and : -> I : -> personally doubt that Obeah is such an interesting discipline that it : -> would require 12 7 capacity vampires to showcase it. OTOH, the : -> Samedi, who know Necromancy AND Thanitosis would be a welcome : -> expansion... : A discipline based on bad breath? That's Halitosis, ha ha... But I thought the other was supposed to be Obiqeah, not Obeah... [ quoted text not captured ]

<rit...@cruzio.com> wrote: > Unlike Magic, Jyhad is actually *based* upon something, and thus, when >the clans run out, so to does the possibility for expansion... Nothing says that every expansion has to introduce two clans, or any clans at all, or even any bloodlines. That has merely been the pattern so far, because of the non-Cam clans that are fairly well fleshed out. You're right in that if all expansions are based around new clans, there will only be a few expansions. But there's no reason to box ourselves in like that. > You could presumably go on and on with regional expansions, that would >be basically pointless. The fact is that with a lack of new clans to make, the >expansion set possibilities dry up. Why? What's so uninteresting about exploring new regions? And why should expansions only be about regions are clans? There could be an expansion based around the struggle between two particular vampires, for example. A "real" Methuselah is likely to have developed her own style over the millenia, so that would be the perfect backdrop for a new game mechanic (or type of card). [ quoted text not captured ]

Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote: : Why? What's so uninteresting about exploring new regions? And why should : expansions only be about regions are clans? There could be an expansion : based around the struggle between two particular vampires, for example. : A "real" Methuselah is likely to have developed her own style over the : millenia, so that would be the perfect backdrop for a new game mechanic : (or type of card). : Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for : aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc. Well, if the expansion is going to be the equivalent of Magic's Homelands [which is much the story about the conflicts between Baron Sengir and the Autumn Willow [?]], then I doubt many players will be interested. For some reason, it seems that we Jyhad lot, for the most part, don't just want more cards, we want quality cards to play with--a lot of players of other CCG's, many of Magic included, don't care as much, as long as they have "new" cards. True, they like to see useful, powerful cards, but if they really wanted only the best, then WotC would have been forced to improve the sets starting right after the Dark or else the players [who, if this theory is correct, are what we would call card-hungry] simply wouldn't have bought them, since, IMO and the OOO [opinions of others] the expansions have gone steadily down since. This is not to open a debate on whether or not Magic has gone downhill. I'm simply trying to say that we don't want more expansions if the cards are going to be A) virtually useless (MTG:Dwarven Pony? Thrull Wizard???); B) rehashes of other existing cards (MTG:Abyssal Specter, Clockwork Steed/Swarm), especially if the rehash is weaker than the original card!; or absolute reprints of existing cards with new artwork. We probably don't want multiples of the same card with different artwork in the same set, like 3 different KRCG news radio's for instance. And while there are already some cards in DS whose cost is far greater than the benefit [at least the benefit seen by the vast majority], such as Werewolf Pack, there is a difference between a card being underpowered and being useless. A restoration that cost 1 or 2 blood to use would be useless; a free location that you can tap to give +1 intercept against a toreador calling a political action would be virtually useless, etc. [ quoted text not captured ]

The RTR lists many specific votes that NC vampires cannot call. But then you (Tom, for the RT) say that NC cannot call any votes at all. Why then does the list exist at all? Can these votes not be called by NC even after the appropriate 'acceptance'? (This has already be answered that NC can call any vote after acceptance- that being the whole point of acceptance). So why the list of votes that NC cannot call, when you say that they cannot call any votes at all, list or no? ----- From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: Rules Team Rulings: 11/10/95 Date: 12 Nov 1995 00:34:44 GMT Message-ID: <483ff4$9...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> 3) Non-Camarilla vampires cannot call Praxis Seizures. They cannot call Justicar Retribution or Command of the Harpies, or call a vote to burn Elysium: the Arboretum. In addition, Non-Camarilla vampires cannot be chosen as an Archon or Camarilla Exemplary. ----- From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad Subject: Re: TOM: Would you please define Non-Camarilla? Date: 20 Dec 1995 01:40:54 GMT Message-ID: <4b7pj6$d...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> RICHARD KENAN <eef...@acmex.gatech.edu> wrote: >: >Can NC vampires vote? Can they call votes? [The earlier answer was in error.] NC vampires may not take political actions, but may contribute any votes they do have to actions taken by others. ----- -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: >The RTR lists many specific votes that NC vampires cannot call. >But then you (Tom, for the RT) say that NC cannot call any >votes at all. Why then does the list exist at all? Because I blew it when I said they couldn't call votes at all. >Can these >votes not be called by NC even after the appropriate 'acceptance'? Once the appropriate acceptance vote has passed, all vampires of that clan are considered Cam vampires in all ways, so can start becoming princes, archons, and so forth. [ quoted text not captured ]

L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote: : The RTR lists many specific votes that NC vampires cannot call. : But then you (Tom, for the RT) say that NC cannot call any : votes at all. Why then does the list exist at all? Can these : votes not be called by NC even after the appropriate 'acceptance'? : (This has already be answered that NC can call any vote after : acceptance- that being the whole point of acceptance). : So why the list of votes that NC cannot call, when you say that : they cannot call any votes at all, list or no? I asked the same question not last week! And to my surprise, I got a quick answer, and an apology. According to Tom, he mis-wrote when he stated that NC vamps. can't make political actions. This is NOT TRUE. NC vamps CAN MAKE ANY political actions that are NOT restricted by the earlier RTR. As soon as they are accepted they make take ANY political action. In the same message he stated that not only could NC vamps. not be named Camarilla Exemplary, but they also probably could not call the vote, either. I wish the message were still floating around on my news server, so I could forward it to you. Perhaps someone else snagged it? -James

The fact that Magic has only five colors (and gold combinations) is just as limiting. In Jyhad, you can mix multi-clan/skill combos much easier than multi color combos in Magic. But then, that's not tru