4 Questions

1. Is it possible to strike with a gun normally, then play BLUR superior, strike again normally and play DRAGON´S BREATH ROUNDS with the third strike (to burn a vampire rather than let him go to torpor)? 2. Is it possible to use GLASER ROUNDS in the first round of combat via Additional Strikes? 3. Is it possible to use FLASH superior during the press step to get the press and use the Maneuver during the upcoming next Choose Range step? 4. May a minion use the ability of the SNIPER RIFLE (set the range to long during first round when he is blocking) if he equips with the Rifle after blocking via Disquised Weapon inferior? Thanks in advance.

jyha...@hotmail.com (Louis) wrote in news:a97670f2.02020...@posting.google.com: > 1. Is it possible to strike with a gun normally, then play BLUR > superior, strike again normally and play DRAGON´S BREATH ROUNDS with > the third strike (to burn a vampire rather than let him go to torpor)? Sure. Card text means you can to use it whenever a gun's strike is about to resolve, _not_ that you have to use it before any of a gun's strikes resolves. > 2. Is it possible to use GLASER ROUNDS in the first round of combat > via Additional Strikes? Yes, provided you strike with the gun in the first strike and only use the Glaser Rounds on the additional strikes. > 3. Is it possible to use FLASH superior during the press step to get > the press and use the Maneuver during the upcoming next Choose Range > step? No. Maneuvers and presses gained during combat are only usable during the current round by default. Also, sup Flash is a Maneuver and has to be played during the Set Range step, it can't be played during the Press step. > 4. May a minion use the ability of the SNIPER RIFLE (set the range to > long during first round when he is blocking) if he equips with the > Rifle after blocking via Disquised Weapon inferior? No, you have to be the bearer of the weapon when you block to trigger its ability. Flux

> No. Maneuvers and presses gained during combat are only usable during the > current round by default. Also, sup Flash is a Maneuver and has to be > played during the Set Range step, it can't be played during the Press > step. How exactly does superior THAN text of Dust to Dust factor into this ruling? Since its a strike card that gains you a maneuver and a press, what is the ruling on such things? I'm guessing that you would be allowed to use the maneuver on the following round. There is no stipulation that the maneuver comes on the following round, hence the confusion if the above ruling concerning gained maneuvers is correct. Otherwise the superior is utterly useless as you can't play strike cards during the set range step of combat as far as I'm aware.

Jon Stahler wrote: > How exactly does superior THAN text of Dust to Dust factor into this ruling? > Since its a strike card that gains you a maneuver and a press, what is the > ruling on such things? I'm guessing that you would be allowed to use the > maneuver on the following round. There is no stipulation that the maneuver > comes on the following round, hence the confusion if the above ruling > concerning gained maneuvers is correct. Otherwise the superior is utterly > useless as you can't play strike cards during the set range step of combat > as far as I'm aware. Strike cards with maneuvers are playable during the maneuver step (comitting you to the strike) or, with the loss of the maneuver option, during the choose strike step. [6.4.2] See also Thrown Gate. The maneuver cannot be saved for a later round - combat cards' effects apply only to the current round, by default. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3C67ECD6...@white-wolf.com... > Jon Stahler wrote: > > How exactly does superior THAN text of Dust to Dust factor into this ruling? > > Since its a strike card that gains you a maneuver and a press, what is the > > ruling on such things? I'm guessing that you would be allowed to use the > > maneuver on the following round. There is no stipulation that the maneuver > > comes on the following round, hence the confusion if the above ruling > > concerning gained maneuvers is correct. Otherwise the superior is utterly > > useless as you can't play strike cards during the set range step of combat > > as far as I'm aware. > > Strike cards with maneuvers are playable during the maneuver step (comitting you > to the strike) or, with the loss of the maneuver option, during the choose > strike step. [6.4.2] See also Thrown Gate. > > The maneuver cannot be saved for a later round - combat cards' effects apply > only to the current round, by default. I thought after I hit send that I'd seen this before. Forgot completely about Thrown Gate (don't have any potence decks that use them). So I can maneuver with Dust to Dust and then dodge? Woo hoo! That makes it a bit more useful of a card...

I'm quite a newbie in Jyhad (been playing for about 1,5 years) and since bloodlines, I'm finally able to play with the clan I've always loved, the Samedis, so I dismantled my old !Malks deck (keeping the obf) and my rush potence deck (keeping nothing) just to play Samedis. It took me a time to finally build a deck that does quite well, just playing Samedis and low caps of other clans who mix well with them. It's not a winner deck but I usually get some VP and I enjoy a lot playing with it. The problem I have, is that I like a lot thn and it was very hard to get copies of the rare cards (1 Hag wrinckles, 1 ATA and 1 DTD in 4 boxes!!) and although I find incredible usefull Hag wrinckles for my deck, I still have a question: WHY THE HELL SHOULD I USE ATA or DTD ??????? I really love the cards but I've tryied everything to mix them in my deck and I've used a couple times ATA and I still have to use DTD (I keep it always on hand waiting for the moment to use it but it never comes!!!!) ATA: Well, it's not really useless, you prevent all damage go to torpor (with 2 blood if THN) and for a minion with obf shouldn't be a problem. But Samedis have fortitude so I always prefer to play a superior mettle or rolling with the punches. DTD: What's the point in a maneuver+dodge+press??????? I play a rush deck with equipment/thn (which I think is were Samedis do well) so I sometimes need the maneuver for weapons, and sometimes the press (for Withering+compress) but never the dodge!! Samedis have already fortitude, so I don't usually play dodges. I'm sure somebody will help me with that, Is there any way this cards can be usefull????? I'd really appreciate it if somebody could help me !!!!! tx

o...@bbs-ce.uab.es (ORi) wrote in news:73b37c5e.02021...@posting.google.com: > WHY THE HELL SHOULD I USE ATA or DTD ??????? I really love the cards > but I've tryied everything to mix them in my deck and I've used a > couple times ATA and I still have to use DTD (I keep it always on hand > waiting for the moment to use it but it never comes!!!!) > ATA: Well, it's not really useless, you prevent all damage go to > torpor (with 2 blood if THN) and for a minion with obf shouldn't be a > problem. But Samedis have fortitude so I always prefer to play a > superior mettle or rolling with the punches. I guess it would be rather usefull against Tzimisce combat, since to prevent Crows+Agg you'd normally need more than a Superior Mettle, and then it would still cost you some blood. Of course, going to torpor with a Tzi intercept deck as predator or prey might not be a very smart move... > DTD: What's the point in a maneuver+dodge+press??????? I play a rush > deck with equipment/thn (which I think is were Samedis do well) so I > sometimes need the maneuver for weapons, and sometimes the press (for > Withering+compress) but never the dodge!! Samedis have already > fortitude, so I don't usually play dodges. It's great as IG defense, but For is a better option there. My guess is that it would work best against Assamite rush, where you get to see their strike first, and you might not be able to prevent it. Actually, against any kind of rush deck, a man+dodge+press will give them a very hard target to hit, usefull when you can't hit them properly and For might not be enough. > I'm sure somebody will help me with that, Is there any way this cards > can be usefull????? I'd really appreciate it if somebody could help me > !!!!! ATA and DTD can be very usefull, but only in very specific metagame conditions (ie, in heavy rush enviroments, with some specific decks), that's why they're rare. :-) Flux

ORi wrote: > WHY THE HELL SHOULD I USE ATA or DTD ??????? I really love the cards > but I've tryied everything to mix them in my deck and I've used a > couple times ATA and I still have to use DTD (I keep it always on hand > waiting for the moment to use it but it never comes!!!!) > ATA: Well, it's not really useless, you prevent all damage go to > torpor (with 2 blood if THN) and for a minion with obf shouldn't be a > problem. But Samedis have fortitude so I always prefer to play a > superior mettle or rolling with the punches. Daniel Poppe came up with the concept of combat defense through a combination of superior Ashes-to-Ashes followed by a Freak Drive (this being his turn) followed by a leaving torpor maneuver. In fact, if the cards came up right, he'd play ATA in combat, Freak Drive, Regeneration, Freak Drive, Rapid Healing and wind up gaining 6 blood with superior fortitude or 4 blood with inferior. Then, for the coup de grace, Minion Tap the sucker on his next master phase. Needless to say, however, this was a lot of moving parts. It was a beautiful thing to watch until he'd run out of Freak Drives at the wrong moment or something. (Other key cards in the deck: Force of Will to bleed when tapped, after you've tapped out your prey's defense; also Daring the Dawn - if someone blocks you trying to leave torpor, play Daring the Dawn which means you wind up back in torpor but you can't be diablerized through the block. And both these cards made a lot of sense in a deck that's full of ways to leave torpor.) At least maybe this will get you thinking about how to use it. Fred

Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:<3C693AA0...@removethis.com>... > Daniel Poppe came up with the concept of combat defense through a > combination of superior Ashes-to-Ashes followed by a Freak Drive (this > being his turn) followed by a leaving torpor maneuver. In fact, if the > cards came up right, he'd play ATA in combat, Freak Drive, Regeneration, > Freak Drive, Rapid Healing and wind up gaining 6 blood with superior > fortitude or 4 blood with inferior. I think you need one less Freak Drive since ATA leaves you untapped in torpor >Then, for the coup de grace, > Minion Tap the sucker on his next master phase. Needless to say, > however, this was a lot of moving parts. It was a beautiful thing to > watch until he'd run out of Freak Drives at the wrong moment or > something. (Other key cards in the deck: Force of Will to bleed when > tapped, after you've tapped out your prey's defense; also Daring the > Dawn - if someone blocks you trying to leave torpor, play Daring the > Dawn which means you wind up back in torpor but you can't be > diablerized through the block. And both these cards made a lot of > sense in a deck that's full of ways to leave torpor.) Ok, I it's a way to use it but I still think it doesn't worth it too much since I'm spending my Freak Drives and Daring the Dawns (not quite common cards) for just leaving vampires from torpor (and vampires actually sent by me to torpor !!!), regenerations and rapid healings is a good solution since one of the problems I've faced playing Samedis is pool gain, but I still think I'd prefer a fortitude card to prevent damage rather than spending two Freak Drives and one Daring the Dawn.

Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:<3C693AA0...@removethis.com>... > ORi wrote: <snip in and out of torp stuff using THN> Why bother when Pro does it SO much better, with movement of the slow body and strike, combat ends (and you get to untap)? To each his own I suppose... ~SV

Ori wrote: >>ATA: Well, it's not really useless, you prevent all damage go to torpor (with 2 blood if THN) and for a minion with obf shouldn't be a problem. But Samedis have fortitude so I always prefer to play a superior mettle or rolling with the punches.>> It is very good in a high combat environment or in a situation where you expect to see damage that can't be prevented by Fortitude. It isn't a strike (like S:CE), it prevents *all* damage (unlike superior mettle and RwtP, which only prevent strike damage, not environmental damage), it doesn't cost any blood, and it ends combat immediately. It is a really good "get out of a pinch" card--I wouldn't rely on many of them as my sole source of combat defense (unless I was playing some sort of kooky combo cycle deck where ATA is the secret key that I can't even imagine right now), but a few in a deck with Samedi seems like a prudent idea. Sometimes even the best fortitude based defense gets foiled--you have only RwtP against a deck that presses or only Superior Mettle against a deck with additional strikes; you are getting eaten by environmental damage; whatever. >>DTD: What's the point in a maneuver+dodge+press??????? I play a rush deck with equipment/thn (which I think is were Samedis do well) so I sometimes need the maneuver for weapons, and sometimes the press (for Withering+compress) but never the dodge!! Samedis have already fortitude, so I don't usually play dodges.>> You don't use it offensively, but for a defense--a manuver (to avoid getting IGed), a Dodge (to avoid getting shot), and a press (to end combat) is pretty solid. A few of these in with fortitude defense also seems prudent for a deck that is primarily concerned with combat *defense* rather than *offense*. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "These streets are filled with danger and madness! MADNESS!" -Zim.

vermil...@yahoo.com (vermillian) wrote in message news:<f987c6cd.02021...@posting.google.com>... > <snip in and out of torp stuff using THN> > > Why bother when Pro does it SO much better, with movement of the slow > body and strike, combat ends (and you get to untap)? Well, Raven (cap 5, FOR PRO) could get into combat, hit her opponent with Wolf Claws, get smacked into torpor, use Movement of the Slowed Body to untap and gain a blood, then use Rapid Healing to leave torpor and gain a blood. 3 cards played, net gain of 1 blood (not counting any blood lost to damage), 1 agg damage done to opponent, gives two chances to block a vampire in torpor. George Fredrick (cap 6, FOR THN) could get into combat, hit his opponent with Compress, play Ashes to Ashes to prevent all damage, untap, gain 2 blood and go to torpor, then use Rapid Healing to leave torpor and gain a blood. 3 cards played, net gain of 1 blood (none is lost to damage), 3 agg damage done to opponent, only one chance given to block a vampire in torpor. PRO is a lot more flexible than THN, granted, but THN has some advantages.

o...@bbs-ce.uab.es (ORi) wrote in message news:<73b37c5e.02021...@posting.google.com>... > DTD: What's the point in a maneuver+dodge+press??????? I play a rush > deck with equipment/thn (which I think is were Samedis do well) so I > sometimes need the maneuver for weapons, and sometimes the press (for > Withering+compress) but never the dodge!! You're using a Samedi rush deck with equipment, and you wonder what Dust to Dust is good for? Dust to Dust + Ghoul Retainer + (Disguised Weapon/Hag's Wrinkles) + (Ivory Bow/Improvised Flamethrower). Mix in Heidelburg Castle so you can rush with the ghoul and weapon more than once each turn. Also, try Ex Nihilio + Elemental Stoicism + (Disguised Weapon/Hag's Wrinkles) + (Ivory Bow/Improvised Flamethrower). It takes a while to set up, but being immune to damage is amusing while it lasts.

ORi wrote: > > Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:<3C693AA0...@removethis.com>... > > > Daniel Poppe came up with the concept of combat defense through a > > combination of superior Ashes-to-Ashes followed by a Freak Drive (this > > being his turn) followed by a leaving torpor maneuver. In fact, if the > > cards came up right, he'd play ATA in combat, Freak Drive, Regeneration, > > Freak Drive, Rapid Healing and wind up gaining 6 blood with superior > > fortitude or 4 blood with inferior. > > I think you need one less Freak Drive since ATA leaves you untapped in > torpor Oops, you're right. I didn't play the deck so I didn't know the details. Even better, at least if it's your turn. This is basically totally damage control but pay 2 to leave torpor or 0 at superior Than - as long as you don't get blocked. If you have another vampire - who could be younger and much less important - rescue you, you could take another action. It's got it's risks but it has some rewards, too. And it is sort of interesting to mess around with, even without messing with the various Regeneration and Minion Tap stuff. Fred

vermillian wrote: > > Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:<3C693AA0...@removethis.com>... > > ORi wrote: > > <snip in and out of torp stuff using THN> > > Why bother when Pro does it SO much better, with movement of the slow > body and strike, combat ends (and you get to untap)? Two words: Immortal Grapple. Fred

emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.02021...@posting.google.com>... > > > Dust to Dust + Ghoul Retainer + (Disguised Weapon/Hag's Wrinkles) + > (Ivory Bow/Improvised Flamethrower). Mix in Heidelburg Castle so you > can rush with the ghoul and weapon more than once each turn. > I liked this one, I'd never thought about using Ghoul Retainer with my Samedis, maybe a combination Ghoul Retainer + Improvised + Withering could be also a great idea seems I'll find an utility to DTD after all :)

> > Two words: Immortal Grapple. > Yes yes, but NO one plays with crap like THAT... :) ~SV

"ORi" <o...@bbs-ce.uab.es> wrote in message news:73b37c5e.02021...@posting.google.com... <snip> > > WHY THE HELL SHOULD I USE ATA or DTD ??????? I really love the cards > but I've tryied everything to mix them in my deck and I've used a > couple times ATA and I still have to use DTD (I keep it always on hand > waiting for the moment to use it but it never comes!!!!) > ATA: Well, it's not really useless, you prevent all damage go to > torpor (with 2 blood if THN) and for a minion with obf shouldn't be a > problem. But Samedis have fortitude so I always prefer to play a > superior mettle or rolling with the punches. First of all, ATA prevents ALL damage, not just damage from a strike. Secondly, after playing Trap and ATA, play Undead Persistence and keep on playing ATA. damage prevention + bloodgain in combat and ATA prolongs the trap. Of course you'll be going to torpor, but untapped and at full capacity. No problem for vamps with obf. Jeroen

Jeroen wrote: >First of all, ATA prevents ALL damage, not just damage from a strike. >Secondly, after playing Trap and ATA, play Undead Persistence and keep on >playing ATA. damage prevention + bloodgain in combat and ATA prolongs the >trap. Of course you'll be going to torpor, but untapped and at full >capacity. No problem for vamps with obf. Well, I think ATA is a good card, but the above scenario is just a little too good. I'm betting it will be ruled illegal on the grounds that ATA ends combat (card text).

[ quoted text not captured ] It's already been ruled legal. [LSJ 11-FEB-2002] [ quoted text not captured ]

"ORi" <o...@bbs-ce.uab.es> wrote in message news:73b37c5e.02021...@posting.google.com... > > WHY THE HELL SHOULD I USE ATA or DTD ??????? > Despite all the situations that people have stated, it is still clear that ATA and DTD are not particularly useful in most situations for the average Samedi rush deck (or most other reasonable decks I can think of that use Samedi). In the few corner-cases where they are useful, they can both be great. This is why they are rare. Despite my earlier complaint about having about 12 Rigor Mortises, on further play I have been impressed with the rarity-balance of Thanatosis. ATA, DTD, and Hag's Wrinkles are all of limited use (actually, I still haven't figured out any reason to use Hag's Wrinkles over Disguised Weapon, but some people seem to like it for an unknown reason), and most of the commons are pretty good. Although Infection and Putrefaction could have stood to be uncommon.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:19:41 GMT, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote: >(actually, I still haven't figured out any reason to use Hag's >Wrinkles over Disguised Weapon, but some people seem to like it for an >unknown reason) Hags wrinkles untap you after equipping any equipment (ie: not just weapons). T

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:xTza8.46925$fK1.4126870@rwcrnsc54... > > "ORi" <o...@bbs-ce.uab.es> wrote in message > news:73b37c5e.02021...@posting.google.com... > > <snip> (actually, I still haven't figured out any reason to use Hag's > Wrinkles over Disguised Weapon, but some people seem to like it for an > unknown reason) Disguised Weapon: *weapon only *must be in combat *cannot be blocked Hag's Wrinkels: * any equip action (I think this includes getting equipment from another minion you control. Not really sure. LSJ?) * cycles a lot easier when you're not a combat deck. * Can be blocked but Samedi have obf, so that shouldn't be a problem. Jeroen

<Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3c6b77dd.192645589@news... [ quoted text not captured ] You can't bash someone with a Laptop. =P

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<xTza8.46925$fK1.4126870@rwcrnsc54>... > ATA, DTD, and Hag's Wrinkles are all of > limited use (actually, I still haven't figured out any reason to use Hag's > Wrinkles over Disguised Weapon, but some people seem to like it for an > unknown reason) I actually prefer to use Hag Wrinckles because I it works with all kind of equipment, not just weapons. However, I agree with you that most common and uncommon Samedi cards are very usefull.

jeroen rombouts wrote: > Hag's Wrinkels: > * any equip action (I think this includes getting equipment from another > minion you control. Not really sure. LSJ?) Yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <A9La8.56773$AV5.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] And you can't bleed for 2 with a .44 Magnum. "Swings and roundabouts." -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:09:52 GMT, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote: > ><Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message >news:3c6b77dd.192645589@news... >> On Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:19:41 GMT, "Chris Berger" >> <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote: >> >> >(actually, I still haven't figured out any reason to use Hag's >> >Wrinkles over Disguised Weapon, but some people seem to like it for an >> >unknown reason) >> >> Hags wrinkles untap you after equipping any equipment (ie: not just >> weapons). >> >You can't bash someone with a Laptop. =P > Well you can if they decide to block your bleed after you equip with it. =] T

In message <3c6ed7c1.3080968@news>, Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com mumbled something about: >On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:09:52 GMT, "Chris Berger" ><ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote: >><Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message >>news:3c6b77dd.192645589@news... >>> Hags wrinkles untap you after equipping any equipment (ie: not just >>> weapons). >>> >>You can't bash someone with a Laptop. =P > >Well you can if they decide to block your bleed after you equip with >it. =] Historically, bleeds for 2 are far more likely to be blocked than bleeds for 1, making it far more likely that Hidden Lurker might ever see play. [ quoted text not captured ]