Rush tactic: when blocked, use "dawn operation" at superior level.
Entering combat, play "drawing out the beast at superior level". Now,
play "earth meld" to untap, no regards what opponent plays. You've send
a vampire to torpor for free. Now just send a little fellow for
diablerie... Using backways and protean, no way you'll get blocked.
Fortitude is nice, Gangrel is better. Can you explain me the reason of
this tragic outcome ?
an errata would be wise, say : "opposing vampire lose one blood after
each round" instead of "takes one damage which cannot be prevented".
[ quoted text not captured ]
That's nothing. The Gangrel are the only clan that I know of that can
knock two of someone else's vampires into torpor with one action. It
requires you to have a vampire with Superior Protean, Fortitude, and
Animalism. Gitane St. Clare will do.
1)Equip with Dog Pack
2) Bum's Rush a vampire with Uncontrollable Rage (giving +1 aggravated
damaged). You need to rush someone that they want to protect, and
therfore induce them to block with another minion.
3)Once a block is declared, play Dawn Op.
4) Throw a Drawing out the Beast on the opposing minion.
5) for your strike play Form of Mist at superior to continue the action
(opposing minion #1 in torpor)
6) More than likely no one else will try to block. Either way it
doesn't matter. Once you get into combat again play Trap.
7) Now unless they have a press to end, alot of damage prevention, or
knock you into torpor first, they go to torpor.
Oh waiter. I'll think I'll have a Masika grande with a Deiter Kliest
flavoring. Viola, instant juice blend!
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
[ quoted text not captured ]
I like DotB as it is. I don't think it is too powerful, it takes a few cards
to wind it up into a powerful combo.
As someone mentioned a while ago, you need to invest a lot of time and
resources to be able to pull off this combo with anyone worthwhile
(Stanislava, Ingrid).
"reyda seddiki" <re...@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:39AAAB79...@club-internet.fr...
> Rush tactic: when blocked, use "dawn operation" at superior level.
> Entering combat, play "drawing out the beast at superior level". Now,
> play "earth meld"
Better to play Form of Mist to carry on with whatever you were doing and
have someone else Graverob the victim !
> to untap, no regards what opponent plays. You've send
> a vampire to torpor for free. Now just send a little fellow for
> diablerie... Using backways and protean, no way you'll get blocked.
> Fortitude is nice, Gangrel is better. Can you explain me the reason of
> this tragic outcome ?
>
> an errata would be wise, say : "opposing vampire lose one blood after
> each round" instead of "takes one damage which cannot be prevented".
>
>
Rob T
---
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:12:09 +0200, reyda seddiki
<re...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
>Rush tactic: when blocked, use "dawn operation" at superior level.
>Entering combat, play "drawing out the beast at superior level". Now,
Requiring a vampire with superior Fortitude and superior Animalism.
Two 6-cap Ravnos: Sarisha Veliku and Joaquina Amaya.
One 7-cap Gangrel: Gitane St. Claire
Your next option is a 9-cap Ravnos or Gangrel. This is not a whole
lot of vampires to work with, and they're kind of big and unwieldy,
meaning you'll get run over by small vamps.
>play "earth meld" to untap, no regards what opponent plays. You've send
Unless your opponent plays Immortal Grapple, and you take bunches of
aggravated hand damage and burn to a crisp.
>a vampire to torpor for free. Now just send a little fellow for
Nope. Someone had to block you. What exactly are you going to do to
MAKE me block you? Especially after I see a Dawn Op/DotB combo once?
>diablerie... Using backways and protean, no way you'll get blocked.
>Fortitude is nice, Gangrel is better. Can you explain me the reason of
>this tragic outcome ?
Your vampire burns in the Bloodhunt vote, since the Gangrel have no
significant votes to speak of (their cheapest Prince is a 9-cap).
Lots of people have tried to make this happen. Lots of people have
failed.
Assuming a disposable little vampire: Backways and Protean are nice,
but that's only 2 stealth and only for a Gangrel, and +2 intercept
from Domain or other sources is very, very, very common. Chandler
Hungerford has superior PRO and can get 3 stealth, but he's too good
to waste in diablerie.
>an errata would be wise, say : "opposing vampire lose one blood after
>each round" instead of "takes one damage which cannot be prevented".
There is no errata necessary - and besides, your errata wouldn't be
able to torporize vampires in ANY way, which one non-aggravated point
of damage will do to an empty vamp. DotB would become largely
wallpaper, unless you were worried about maneuvers or equipment.
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
>
> Your vampire burns in the Bloodhunt vote, since the Gangrel have no
> significant votes to speak of (their cheapest Prince is a 9-cap).
> Lots of people have tried to make this happen. Lots of people have
> failed.
>
Take a look at Mike Ooi's 'Return of the Gangrel'
http://whitestar.ddg.com/thelasombra/mikes-return_of_the_gangrel.htm
-Brian
In article <39AB1FF2...@club-internet.fr>,
[ quoted text not captured ]> I would use Dawn Op. + Carrion Crows with any For. prevent card also
that way they don't see they same combo coming. Granted still have to
worry about S:CE. Skin of night would be a good card to put in.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> > I would use Dawn Op. + Carrion Crows with any For. prevent card also
> that way they don't see they same combo coming. Granted still have to
> worry about S:CE. Skin of night would be a good card to put in.
>
You could also use Tremere with Fortitude. Cardano is your man, play Dawn
Op/Skin Of Night/Weather Control - no S:CE will save them, only Heart Of
Darkness or Skin Of Night. He even has Dominate, so some people mgiht
consider blocking him in the first place... The again, he's a 9-cap. I think
the whole concept of dawn oping some unpreventable damage thingy is a bit
sketchy - neat combo if it works, but what if they don’t block? This
Stanislava/Ingrid Roessler monstrosity already mentioned can be quite scary,
but in general I think twice about blocking Gangrel anyway - with our without
the dawnopped DotB. And the whole Gangrel angle implies that your vampire
doesn't get killed by some suicidal lunatic with an immortal grapple. It
makes for a nice surpirse, but in general the setup is too excessive for the
effect.
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8oijvt$pd1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> > > I would use Dawn Op. + Carrion Crows with any For. prevent card
also
> > that way they don't see they same combo coming. Granted still have
to
> > worry about S:CE. Skin of night would be a good card to put in.
> >
>[ quoted text not captured ]> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Isn't dmaage from Drawing Out the Beast, Catatonic Fear etc dealt
outside combat? At least Catatonic Fear is, so how can Dawn Operation
make it aggravated since it only does to damage dealt in combat? Is
that because the damage card is played in the combat and thus
considered to be "dealt" then?
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8ojbpd$lic$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
can...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Isn't dmaage from Drawing Out the Beast, Catatonic Fear etc dealt
> outside combat?
Drawing Out The Beast - No.
Catatonic Fear - Yes.
> At least Catatonic Fear is, so how can Dawn Operation make it
> aggravated since it only does to damage dealt in combat?
Dawn Operation does not make the damage from Catatonic Fear
aggravated. The damage from Catatonic Fear is done after the
combat is completed, and so is not affected by Dawn Operation.
Catatonic Fear's damage is dealt just after the combat ends. [RTR
19970630]
> Is that because the damage card is played in the combat and thus
> considered to be "dealt" then?
No. See all paragraphs above.
Carpe Noctem.
Lasombra
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra[ quoted text not captured ]
can...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Isn't dmaage from Drawing Out the Beast, Catatonic Fear etc dealt> outside combat? At least Catatonic Fear is, so how can Dawn Operation
> make it aggravated since it only does to damage dealt in combat? Is> that because the damage card is played in the combat and thus
> considered to be "dealt" then?
DotB damage is dealt at the end of the round (during combat).
CataFear's damage is dealt after combat ends, so would not be made aggravated
by Dawn Operation.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
In article <39AE4A2E...@white-wolf.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yes but this is pretty confusing. Technically DotB would be played
after presses right? Well that phase doesn't even occur since S:CE
immediately ends combat, so how can DotB deal damage after that when
combat is over? Catatonic Fear can because of the errata, but DotB
shouldn't be able though, and thus the Dawn Operation combo wouldn't be
effective.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Thu, 31 Aug 2000 23:06:45 GMT, can...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Yes but this is pretty confusing. Technically DotB would be played
>after presses right? Well that phase doesn't even occur since S:CE
No, DotB is played before range is determined on the first round.
DotB's DAMAGE is applied at the end of every round.
>immediately ends combat, so how can DotB deal damage after that when
>combat is over? Catatonic Fear can because of the errata, but DotB
Combat sequence, slightly simplified, goes like this:
Combat Begins
Round Begins
Before Range <- listed because of so many cards that use it
Choose Range
Choose Strike
Strikes Resolve
Additional Strikes?
Round Ends
Combat Ends
A round cannot "begin" without ending, and the current round must end
before combat can end. So DotB's damage, which occurs *at* the end of
any round, is still during combat. S:CE, when it resolves, ends both
the round and combat - but still in that order. Think programming
loop - you can't have an open bracket without a closed one. =)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <an6uqssfipn3cth29...@4ax.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
*sees a future where all V:TES players needs to be cyborgs with
computerized brains to be able to play*
:)~
[ quoted text not captured ]
so, if i do understand it well, the combo "DotB + operation + earth
meld" simply does not work - because DotB damage is done during combat,
but Earth Meld is CE strike and therefore "combat ends immediately with
no other effects resolved" (errata). we play this version in Prague
now.
BD
greetings to U, Leggy
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 05 Sep 2000 17:05:52 GMT, bartok...@my-deja.com wrote:
>so, if i do understand it well, the combo "DotB + operation + earth
>meld" simply does not work - because DotB damage is done during combat,
>but Earth Meld is CE strike and therefore "combat ends immediately with
>no other effects resolved" (errata). we play this version in Prague
nope. DotB's damage is done at the end of the round, which is PRIOR
to the end of combat, no matter how combat ends. DotB + Dawn Op +
Earth Meld will provide 1 point of unpreventable aggravated damage
while ending combat. It does, however, require 2 superior and 1
inferior discipline to pull off.
it's really not that powerful, guys. sure, if you block, you take a
point and go to torpor, but you can always just rescue yourself. and
diablerie is really just not an issue with Gangrel since you have no
votes to survive a bloodhunt with.
the cheapest vampire who can take a bleed action that you'd want to
block (3 or more) *AND* who has ANI/FOR/pro is Ingrid Rossler, at a
9-cap. Sarisha Veliku has ANI/FOR/dom and is a 6-cap, but she doesn't
have any way to end combat, so is relying on prevent cards.
now, if you're a habitual blocker, to the point where you tend to
block Gangrel bleeding for 1, this is going to be a problem for you.
the solution is to stop thinking you have to block everything. =)
[ quoted text not captured ]
bartok...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> so, if i do understand it well, the combo "DotB + operation + earth
> meld" simply does not work - because DotB damage is done during combat,
> but Earth Meld is CE strike and therefore "combat ends immediately with
> no other effects resolved" (errata). we play this version in Prague
> now.
Strike: Combat Ends has no errata. It ends combat before (other) strikes
resolve.
DotB deals damage when the round ends.
The round still ends (and DotB will deal its damage) when combat ends.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8p3955$u34$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
Read the thread over again ;) What has been said is that the combo does
work, it just wouldn't work with Catatonic Fear, since that dmg is
dealt outside combat, while DotB dmg is within combat. S:CE doesn't
change that (I know it sounds weird).
[ quoted text not captured ]
so? read this one:
"Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike
is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with
First Strike, and ends combat before other strikes can be resolved or
any damage dealt."
(on-line rulebook, VtES section of WW web pages)
according to this, combo "operation + DtoB + CE" does not work. the
only way to do damage after such strike is being played is to use card
similar to CF (i.e. doing damage AFTER combat).
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8p3ikf$903$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
bartok...@my-deja.com wrote:
> so? read this one:
>
> "Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike
> is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with
> First Strike, and ends combat before other strikes can be resolved or
> any damage dealt."
> (on-line rulebook, VtES section of WW web pages)
>
> according to this, combo "operation + DtoB + CE" does not work. the
> only way to do damage after such strike is being played is to use card
> similar to CF (i.e. doing damage AFTER combat).
You are mistaken here. Drawing out the Beast does damage at the end of
a round as per card text. If you end the round with a Strike: combat
Ends then you still take the damage at the end of the round. The only
difference is that you ended the round before normal strike resolution,
instead of after presses resolve. The round still ends and you still
take damage at the end of the round as per card text.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8p3ikf$903$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, bartok...@my-deja.com
writes
>"Combat Ends. This effect ends combat immediately. This type of strike
>is always the first to resolve, even before a strike done with
>First Strike, and ends combat before other strikes can be resolved or
>any damage dealt."
It is referring to the opponent's strikes or retainers.
End of combat effects still have to come in.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D | ja...@zephyr.org.uk (New e-mail)
"Who'd have ever predicted the moment would come when I find myself grateful
they've kept women dumb? She's an innocent maiden but then so am I, that's why
it's possible I could get by."
In article <8oijvt$pd1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, skaffen_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > I would use Dawn Op. + Carrion Crows with any For. prevent card also
> > that way they don't see they same combo coming. Granted still have to
> > worry about S:CE. Skin of night would be a good card to put in.
> >
>> You could also use Tremere with Fortitude. Cardano is your man, play Dawn
> Op/Skin Of Night/Weather Control - no S:CE will save them, only Heart Of
> Darkness or Skin Of Night. He even has Dominate, so some people mgiht
> consider blocking him in the first place... The again, he's a 9-cap. I think
> the whole concept of dawn oping some unpreventable damage thingy is a bit
> sketchy - neat combo if it works, but what if they don’t block? This
> Stanislava/Ingrid Roessler monstrosity already mentioned can be quite scary,
> but in general I think twice about blocking Gangrel anyway - with our without
> the dawnopped DotB. And the whole Gangrel angle implies that your vampire
> doesn't get killed by some suicidal lunatic with an immortal grapple. It
> makes for a nice surpirse, but in general the setup is too excessive for the
> effect.
>
I've got a deck that does that. Iliana, Bindusara & Muaziz all have
Dom/For/Thaum, and I think there's a Ravnos, possibly Darius with
For/Thaum. I use Freak drives and graverobbings, and Muaziz with amaranth
and rtitual to gain blood and vampires. If they don't want to block
that's fine, I've got dominate bleeds, superior Governs for pool gain,
and I don't remember what else cos I haven't played the deck for ages.
It works fairly well though.
Matt
--
"We're all mad, you see. I'm mad, you're mad, we're all of us quite
insane. Who wouldn't be, after all this time doing this crap?" "Why do
you think I'm mad?" "Why, of course you're mad. If you weren't mad, you
wouldn't be here." - Jack L Chalker, "The Hot-Wired Dodo"
In article <psycho_bunny-0...@g20mac10.anu.edu.au>, Matt
<psycho...@freemail.com.au> writes
>I've got a deck that does that. Iliana, Bindusara & Muaziz all have
>Dom/For/Thaum, and I think there's a Ravnos, possibly Darius with
>For/Thaum.
Dom/For/Thaum:
Cardano
Ulugh Beg, The French Horn (or was it a tuba?)
Bindusara
Iliana
Muaziz
Marlene, the Infernalist
The last, Marlene, with DOM for tha, is quite interesting, at only 6
capacity.
Darius has FOR tha, as does Gwendolyn. Pieter has for tha.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"James Coupe"
> Dom/For/Thaum:
>
> Cardano
> Ulugh Beg, The French Horn (or was it a tuba?)
> Bindusara
> Iliana
> Muaziz
> Marlene, the Infernalist
My recommendations:
2x Cardano
2x Marlene
2x Iliana
2x Muaziz
1x Ulugh Beg, the Watcha
1x Ian Forestal
1x Bindusara
1x Merrill Molitor
After *much* repeat play (and being ganged up on by ex-CLers who got
frustrated when they *kept* going to torpor after blocking), this is what I
use for my crypt. I have the deck...no, I don't have the deck archived on the
web anywhere. On the other hand, everyone's friend Lasombra does...
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/xian.htm#tdf
That looks relatively current. Not entirely, perhaps, but close. Now, you
definitely don't need to take my word on this, as YMMV, but Darius, Gwendolyn
and Pieter are not worth it, and Ulugh Beg usually isn't either. He's there
if votes become necessary. Bindusara is handy with his FOR THA and abilities,
but...he's enormous too. An earlier design is
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra/xian.htm#tf which focuses on rush, not
bruise & bleed, but it's less effective...
Xian
www.waste.org/~xian
In article <bP6u5.235$QB6....@news.uswest.net>, Xian <xi...@waste.org>
writes
>After *much* repeat play (and being ganged up on by ex-CLers who got
>frustrated when they *kept* going to torpor after blocking),
So, ages off the newsgroup has done nothing to reduce the weirdness
quotient of your decks?
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:J7Ih2fAp...@obeah.demon.co.uk...
> In article <bP6u5.235$QB6....@news.uswest.net>, Xian <xi...@waste.org>
> writes
> >After *much* repeat play (and being ganged up on by ex-CLers who got
> >frustrated when they *kept* going to torpor after blocking),
>
> So, ages off the newsgroup has done nothing to reduce the weirdness
> quotient of your decks?
>
I sure hope not, since I finally get to play against him tomorrow. Then
again, our playgroup seems to be full of weird decks lately. SO of course,
I'm bringing three vanilla decks this time... after my Setite denial deck
imploded last time out, I'm ready for the old fashioned stuff.
Mark Shanewood
a weird deck person in his own right
Hey! Just occurred to me that it would be kinda cool to hear from folks all
over a "state of the metagame" report. I'm continually amazed by how
different playgroups go in completely different directions... tell ya what,
I'll post one next week. Anybody else wanna throw something out there -
what folks are playing, what's winning, how's recruiting, etc, etc?
"Mark & Kathy ShaneWood" <shan...@tcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:39b99be7$0$28259$7f89...@newsreader.visi.com...
>
> James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:J7Ih2fAp...@obeah.demon.co.uk...> > So, ages off the newsgroup has done nothing to reduce the weirdness
> > quotient of your decks?
Nope. Though I actually haven't played much since I took a break from being
an "internet psycho".
> I sure hope not, since I finally get to play against him tomorrow. Then
> again, our playgroup seems to be full of weird decks lately. SO of course,
> I'm bringing three vanilla decks this time... after my Setite denial deck
> imploded last time out, I'm ready for the old fashioned stuff.
We had a fun time. I don't have time to report now, but hopefully Mark will,
or I'll get around to it tomorrow though.
> Hey! Just occurred to me that it would be kinda cool to hear from folks all
> over a "state of the metagame" report. I'm continually amazed by how
> different playgroups go in completely different directions... tell ya what,
> I'll post one next week. Anybody else wanna throw something out there -
> what folks are playing, what's winning, how's recruiting, etc, etc?
As we discussed yesterday, thank god the metagame in our group is finally
evolving. I was getting sick and tired of people complaining that IG was
broken. It's a powerful effect, duh, but the only thing it stops are S:CE and
weapons...
Xian
Xian <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message
news:URQu5.545$ko1.2...@news.uswest.net...
>
> "Mark & Kathy ShaneWood" <shan...@tcinternet.net> wrote in message
> news:39b99be7$0$28259$7f89...@newsreader.visi.com...
> >
> > James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
> > news:J7Ih2fAp...@obeah.demon.co.uk...
> > > So, ages off the newsgroup has done nothing to reduce the weirdness
> > > quotient of your decks?
>
> Nope. Though I actually haven't played much since I took a break from
being
> an "internet psycho".
>
Just a garden-variety psycho these days, apparently?
> > I sure hope not, since I finally get to play against him tomorrow. Then
> > again, our playgroup seems to be full of weird decks lately. SO of
course,
> > I'm bringing three vanilla decks this time... after my Setite denial
deck
> > imploded last time out, I'm ready for the old fashioned stuff.
>
> We had a fun time. I don't have time to report now, but hopefully Mark
will,
> or I'll get around to it tomorrow though.
>
> > Hey! Just occurred to me that it would be kinda cool to hear from folks
all
> > over a "state of the metagame" report. I'm continually amazed by how
> > different playgroups go in completely different directions... tell ya
what,
> > I'll post one next week. Anybody else wanna throw something out there -
> > what folks are playing, what's winning, how's recruiting, etc, etc?
>
> As we discussed yesterday, thank god the metagame in our group is finally
> evolving. I was getting sick and tired of people complaining that IG was
> broken. It's a powerful effect, duh, but the only thing it stops are S:CE
and
> weapons...
>
I shouldn't admit this to y'all, but I explained how Thoughts Betrayed works
to a rapt audience shortly after you left the other night...
I, on the other hand, am thinking that I should show up with a DotB combat
deck next time and watch the shrieking...
"Mark & Kathy ShaneWood" <shan...@tcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:39bda6e8$0$28242$7f89...@newsreader.visi.com...
> Xian wrote:
> > Nope. Though I actually haven't played much since I took a break from
> > being an "internet psycho".
> >
> Just a garden-variety psycho these days, apparently?
:) No, it's just a nod to Peter...he can explain if he wants.
> I shouldn't admit this to y'all, but I explained how Thoughts Betrayed works
> to a rapt audience shortly after you left the other night...
Hahahhahaha! I'm willing to bet they have fewer Thoughts Betrayed than I have
Undead Strength. And that doesn't prevent the Torn Signposts, etc. Heh. I
haven't used the card much because it was so broken originally. But it'd be
interesting to see them try to bring down some dominate-fueled combat. And
"rapt"? Interesting.
> I, on the other hand, am thinking that I should show up with a DotB combat
> deck next time and watch the shrieking...
The 30(+) DotB + Skin of Steel deck? It's always seemed kind of...inefficient
to me. Vast fun, but inefficient.
Anyway, time for me to sleep. 24 hours straight awake isn't a lot of fun when
half of it was at work.
Xian