rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Silence of Death vs. Fast Hands

4 messages from 2 participants · 02 February 1997 – 03 February 1997
original thread on Google Groups

Aaron Foss

The question is a simple timing one. Vampire A plays Silence of Death at range step. Then strikes with Kali's Fang. Vampire B wanted to play Fast hands as there strike. What happens? My feelings are that since A had first strike even before strikes started and did aggro damage, assuming it wasn't prevented then damage would be resolved before B got to choose strike and so B would go to torpor before they could fast hand as a strike that is treated as a first strike. That at least makes the most sense to me. It all depends on when first strikes are resolved. Thanks Aaron

L. Scott Johnson

Aaron Foss <foss...@gold.tc.umn.edu> writes: >The question is a simple timing one. >Vampire A plays Silence of Death at range step. > Then strikes with Kali's Fang. >Vampire B wanted to play Fast hands as there strike. >What happens? If the range is at close, and the Fast Hands is played at superior (with First Strike, that is), then VampB steals Kalis Fang and takes two aggravated damage from the Fang's strike. If Fast Hands is played at the inferior (not with First Strike), then VampB takes two agg from the Fang (at first strike), and goes to torpor if he doesn't prevent the damage; combat ends and VampB's strike doesn't resolve at all. If he prevents the damage, then the Fast Hands resolves, and VampB gets the Fang. If the range is long, then VampB can't steal the Fang, since Fast Hands only works at close range. >My feelings are that since A had first strike even before strikes >started and did aggro damage, assuming it wasn't prevented then damage >would be resolved before B got to choose strike and so B would go to >torpor before they could fast hand as a strike that is treated as a >first strike. >That at least makes the most sense to me. It all depends on when first >strikes are resolved. First Strikes are resolved after both strikes are announced (and after any S:CE or Dodges have been resolved). See my rules outline for more detailed handling of combat timing: V. HOW TO RESOLVE A COMBAT (8) [15] -------------------------------- NOTE: If one of the Minions involved in the Combat is a Vampire in Torpor, then Combat does NOT occur. If the opposing Minion is a ready Vampire, then he has the opportunity to Diablerize. If the opposing Minion is also a Vampire in Torpor, or is an Ally, then Combat does NOT occur and nothing happens. [precedent set by blocking a 'Leave Torpor' action and by blocking a 'Rapid Healing' action -LSJ] NOTE: You can't use combat cards if you're not involved in the combat. [TOM] NOTE: You can only play damage prevention cards during step D.2.b. [RTR] A. Round begins. Each round begins at close range. (:21) B. Play Combat cards or use Combat effects of cards in play. 1. Acting Minion, then Blocking Minion, then other Methuselahs clockwise from Acting Methuselah may use Combat effects before establishing range. 2. Repeat step 1 until no Methuselah wishes to use effects. C. Establish range. (21) [15.1] 1. Acting Minion may use a Maneuver to set range to long. 2. If Acting Minion did not use a Maneuver then Blocking may use a Maneuver to set range to long. 3. If either Minion used a Maneuver, then use the following procedure: a. Opposing Minion has option to use a Maneuver to cancel the Maneuver. b. If the Maneuver was canceled then the Minion who played it has an option to play another Maneuver to make the range long again. c. Repeat a and b above until a Minion does not Maneuver. NOTE: Only one Weapon/Strike card may be used to Maneuver by a Minion. d. If there is an uncanceled Maneuver, then the range is long. 4. If a weapon or a strike card is used to Maneuver, the minion using the maneuver must use that card for his first strike of the round. [15.1] D. Strikes. (8.1) [15.1] 1. Minions announce their strikes (and the targets, where applicable). a. Acting Minion announces Strike and Target before Blocking Minion does. b. Non-ranged offensive strikes can only target the opposing Minion. c. Ranged offensive strikes can target the opposing Minion or, if the range is long, one of his Retainers. (20.1) d. Non-ammo Damage modifiers must be played now to be effective. [RTR] 2. Resolve Strikes. a. Strikes resolve in the following order. If both strikes are in the same class, then they resolve simultaneously. [15.3] EXCEPTION: if both strikes are Strike: Combat Ends, then the acting minion's strike resolves first (nullifying the defender's). [RTR] i. Strike: Combat Ends. (8.3) (Go to step F) ii. Strike: Dodge. (8.3) (Cancel the opposing strike's effect(s) on the dodging minion and his Equipment, but not his Retainers). NOTE: Damage to Retainers can be prevented with cards (20.1) that say that they can prevent damage to retainers. [RTR] (12) [10] iii. Any strike done with First Strike. (resolve steps b-d before moving on to step iv). (8.3) iv. Any other strikes. (resolve steps b-d) b. Apply effects of strike(s). Effects are applied simultaneously if the strikes are both the same type (from step 2.a). i. Inflict Damage. Damage Prevention cards may be played ONLY during this step. [RTR] Unprevented damage isn't healed until step c. ii. Destroy Equipment. Burn a single Equipment card on the opposing Minion. Default is "only at close range". (8.3) [15.3] iii. Steal Equipment. Move a single Equipment card from the opposing Minion to this Minion. Default is "only at close". (8.3) [15.3] NOTE: Stolen equipment cannot be used the same round it is stolen. iv. Steal Blood. Removes blood from the opponent and places it on this Vampire. Blood stolen in excess of this Vampire's blood capacity is burned. Stolen blood may be used to heal damage (step c). (8.3) v. Paralyze (Jyhad). Sends the opposing Vampire to Torpor, tapped. Mark the Vampire to show that it has been Paralyzed. (22.1) c. Resolve any unprevented damage (see section VI). d. If one or both Combatants are no longer Ready, go to step F. 3. Acting Minion has option to gain additional strikes. (21) 4. Blocking Minion has option to gain additional strikes. (21) 5. Resolve steps 1-2 above for each additional strike that a Minion has. E. Presses. (21) [15.1] NOTE: Only Methuselahs with Minions in combat may supply Presses. [TOM] 1. Each round starts without a Press. 2. Presses alternate between 'to continue' and 'to end' Combat. a. The first Press in a round is used to continue Combat. b. Some presses may be used to either continue or end combat, others state that the press is only usable as one of the two. 3. Each Minion may use any number of Presses, as follows: a. The Acting Minion gets the first opportunity to use a Press. [RTR] b. No Minion may use more than one Press in a row. c. If a card gives a round a Press, then neither Minion is considered to have used that Press. [TOM] F. Round Ends. (21) [15.1] 1. Apply any end-of-round effects. 2. If the last Press was used to continue Combat, then Combat continues (Go back to step A). G. Combat Ends. Retainers regain all life points burned during the current combat. (20.1) [12.3.1] ============================================================================== VI. HOW TO RESOLVE DAMAGE (Heal damage/Prevent Destruction). -------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: Normal damage is resolved before aggravated damage. [RTR] NOTE: Damage prevention cards can only be played during the strike resolution phase of combat (section V.D.2.b). [RTR] A. Vampires burn one blood to heal each point of normal damage. (8.1) B. Vampires who cannot heal all of the damage (damage > blood) must spend all of their blood and then will be placed in torpor after any aggravated damage is applied (see step C). C. Vampires burn one blood (to prevent destruction) for each point of aggravated damage. (21) D. Allies and Retainers burn one life counter for each point of damage. E. Check for Vampires going to Torpor or Minions or Retainers burning. 1. If a Vampire cannot pay for all aggravated damage (aggravated damage in excess of blood) then it is burned without going to torpor. (21) 2. Vampires which have taken at least one point of aggravated damage but were not burned are placed in Torpor. (21) 3. If a Vampire could not heal all of the damage (damage in excess of blood) then it is placed in Torpor with no blood. (21) 4. Allies and Retainers that have zero life counters are burned. (21) -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Refuse Novacaine - http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Transcend Dental Medication! Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Aaron Foss

L. Scott Johnson wrote: snip > First Strikes are resolved after both strikes are announced (and after > any S:CE or Dodges have been resolved). After reading your rules outline, your resolution makes sense. But I am wondering where in the "rules" does that come from. An example that concerns me is, VampA:strikes with machine gun. VampB:Canine Horde at Sup w/first strike. Ok the WoC Vtes page says that weapon is destroyed and VampA strike fizzels. So conceptually the Canine horde went and destroyed the equipment before it could be used, thus being resolved before the opposing minion actually strikes, (why they get stuck thinking they are going to use the gun I have no idea) but thats how I see it. So in essence a first stike is like an additional strike, but before instead of afterwards the normal strikes and if you use a first strike than you can't strike normally. I guess what I am getting at is that it makes no sense that a S:CE would win out againist a first strike simply because it showed it face on the table. In thought the first strike it before the opposing minion is running away. Kind of like waiting behind a corner and quickly smacking someone, versus standing in the middle of the hallway. In the first case, the opposing minion has no time to react to combat, versus in the second case they see whats coming and can turn and run or meld into the ground or what not. I guess if someone can point out exactly where in the rules it says a S:CE beats a FIRST strike than I would be very thankful. Sorry about the rambling. Aaron

L. Scott Johnson

Aaron Foss <foss...@gold.tc.umn.edu> writes: >L. Scott Johnson wrote: >> First Strikes are resolved after both strikes are announced (and after >> any S:CE or Dodges have been resolved). >I guess if someone can point out exactly where in the rules it says a S:CE beats a >FIRST strike than I would be very thankful. Jyhad 15.3. Special Combat Effects Combat Ends: Considered a strike, this ends combat immediately (before any damage is dealt or any strike's effects take place). Note that combat ends is not affected by Dodge and even cancels strikes with first strike. V:tES 8.3. Special Combat Effects Combat Ends: This effect ends combat immediately before any damage is dealt or a strike card's effects take place. If the acting minion's strike is "combat ends", the blocking minion may still use a strike card, but this strike will have no effect. Note that "combat ends" is not affected by a dodge and cancels a First Strike. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Kirk: How's Ensign Pilsbury? http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | McCoy: He's Bread, Jim. [ quoted text not captured ]