Storage Annex VS. Elder Library

Storage Annex is a much better card than Elder Library IMHO... first off, it's free... second, it's uncontestable... then the fact that you can play multiples... think of a deck that requires let's say 5 specific cards played together to produce a disastrous effect. Not a very good deck design to be sure BUT you can save 4 of those cards on SA's while you wait for the 5th card... and then go to work. Also, the fact that you switch cards during the master phase is good too... So many of the cards that are relied upon in the early game depend on either having a vampire out or having a vampire of a specific clan out. If I draw let's say Amusement Park Hunting Ground in my first seven cards... Most of the time I would need to wait at least two turns to get a !Brujah out before I can play it, and discarding it seems like a crappy option. If I draw Storage Annex and APHG I can play Storage Annex with APHG on top of it... recycle two cards immediately and then just wait until I get that !Bru out... not to be underestimated... Also, it seems that in general it is the kind of card your opponents would NOT necessarily want to Arson or anything... if you had a choice between a SA and a HG, the HG would be the one to go. Storage Annex is useful for storing marginal/corner case cards moreso than overly useful cards... look at Fast Hands which I keep ONE copy of in my !Bru deck... useful yes but only in a very specific situation. SA can hold it until somebody gets a weapon out and then I have more of a chance to use it. Until then, SA can be forgotten and if someone targets it, no big deal. If you think about it... regardless of how well your deck is designed, there will always be at least one card in your hand that just doesn't fit the situation at hand. That card is the one that goes on SA until a situation arises that is more favourable to its use. I think this card just made Elder Library 'wallpaper'... any thoughts? Cheers, WES

In article <91oo1...@enews2.newsguy.com>, wes <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: [storage annex analysis snipped] >I think this card just made Elder Library 'wallpaper'... any thoughts? <PEDANT> My thought is that someone should charge you five bucks per ellipse. An ellipse is a series of three dots and looks like [...]. Use fewer of them. Please. It's...almost as...annoying as using...all caps. An ellipse is not a suitable substitute for any other form of punctuation. </PEDANT> On Elder Library v. Storage Annex: I think an increase in hand size is a measurable benefit distinct from the quasi-sideboard effect provided by Storage Annex. Both effects are strong, but I don't think Storage Annex's effect outclasses or replaces Elder Library's. For many decks, reaction time is critical -- you can't wait until your next master phase to get that Card of Doom X in your hand to combo off Card of Doom Y -- you want them RIGHT NOW. Elder Library, by expanding the cards held in the hand, helps that along. Storage Annex is a strong card-cycler (every time you play one, two cards leave your hand), and is good for decks that have a more measured approach (say, vote decks, who can include many case-specific votes 'just in case' and stash them in the Annex), but Elder Library is a better deal for combat decks. Storage Annex is best, in my opinion, in master-heavy or long-combo decks, and worst in quick-cardflow decks (combat, untap-driven multi-action decks, anything that's either comboless or short-combo-driven). It's valuable everywhere -- don't get me wrong, SA is a good, good card. But Elder Library still has a place, definitely. If anything, SA's boon to long-combo decks makes weirder decks stronger, which can only be good for the game's variety. gomi -- kono sora wo daite kagayaku, shounen yo shinwa ni nare.

In article <91oo1...@enews2.newsguy.com>, wes <gh...@mnsi.net> writes >I think this card just made Elder Library 'wallpaper'... any thoughts? There is the fact to consider that a card on Storage Annex can be stolen. This could be a significant down-side. I would *like* to see at least one more location stealer brought in for the Ravnos in Final Nights. It would, if nothing else, provide a useful foil against Storage Annex if it proves to be too useful. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "It's hard to carry on when you feel all alone. Now I've swung back down again, it's worse than it was before. If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor." - James, "Sit Down"

> [...] > I think this card just made Elder Library 'wallpaper'... any thoughts? > [...] Actually, you can use both of them and having 9 cards to play (8 in your hand & 1 in the SA) > > Cheers, > WES Saludos, Pablo Alonso, prince of Palma de Mallorca

James Coupe wrote: > > In article <91oo1...@enews2.newsguy.com>, wes <gh...@mnsi.net> writes > >I think this card just made Elder Library 'wallpaper'... any thoughts? > > There is the fact to consider that a card on Storage Annex can be > stolen. This could be a significant down-side. Um, Elder Library can be stolen. Only difference is you don't lose the card you stored. Fred

Vicente Pouso <vicent...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:3A400A44...@nyc.rr.com... > > [...] > > I think this card just made Elder Library 'wallpaper'... any thoughts? > > [...] > > Actually, you can use both of them and having 9 cards to play (8 in your hand & > 1 in the SA) Only 9? SA isn't unique, so 'the sky's the limit' :-) In fact, that's what's so great about SA, you can have a bunch of them in play, storing several cards, building up a combo for a few turns until you get everything you need to pull it off. But it still doesn't make Elder Library wallpaper, not anymore than Tusk, or The Barrens. Each has it use. I haven't really used it yet, but it's gonna go on my next deck, promise. :-) Flux

Wes wrote: >>>I think this card just made Elder Library 'wallpaper'... any thoughts?>> Nah. Elder Library gives you a 8 card hand now (and always). Storage Annex gives you a 7 card hand and the possibility to get a card you stored up on your next master phase. Depending on the deck you are playing, they both have their places. For a Rush deck, I would much rather have the Library (of the two). Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "Why so many swords?" "I must kill many." -Kikuchiyo

In article <3A40137A...@netcom.com>, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> writes >> There is the fact to consider that a card on Storage Annex can be >> stolen. This could be a significant down-side. > >Um, Elder Library can be stolen. Only difference is you don't lose the >card you stored. Exactly. Losing the card you put on it could be very important, if it was a good card. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote > Exactly. Losing the card you put on it could be very important, if it > was a good card. I think Storage Annex works better for storing the marginal/corner case cards. You know those cards that you think MIGHT be useful in some situations but that you don't want to keep in your hand (regardless of how big your hand is). My example of Fast Hands is a valid case I think. And if someone steals my Fast Hands, who cares? They probably don't even use Celerity anyway. In the decks I have been using it with, I have found it incredibly useful. Honestly, this is probably more attributed to luck at getting Storage Annex out in my first hand. I like Elder Library as well... BUT it seems too expensive when compared to the free, non-contestable Storage Annex. I'd really rather pay nothing and not worry too much about someone playing the same card. Elder Library seems to be one of the most contested cards, or at least it was back in the Jyhad days around here. If Elder Library is stolen, burned, whatever... you do also lose a card when you discard down to a standard hand-size [side question: do you decide which card to discard or is this a random discard? We always discarded randomly which hurt a lot more] I do however stand corrected... Elder Library is NOT wallpaper, just not as useful as Storage Annex in certain decks. I suppose it is a matter of personal preference and deck design. The deck I have been using it in is a !Brujah bruise and bleed which has a fairly tight focus. I use the Storage Annex to store the duplicate Immortal Grapples or Legal Manipulations, or in the beginning turns I store Master cards that I can't use until I get a !Brujah out. If the Storage Annex goes down with an Immortal Grapple on it, no big deal since I have 10 or so in the deck. I have been finding that my hand jams up not with useless cards so much as duplicates of useful cards which can be annoying. I need to be able to 'time' my hands better, and Storage Annex seems to provide that 'tempo control' (if that makes any sense at all). I guess The Barrens is also useful for this but I'm stingy about discarding potentially useful cards. Cheers, WES P.S. I like using ellipsi... but I was not aware that my writing style came across as annoying. Comes from typing tech-notes and reading too much Celine I guess.

In article <91pc...@enews2.newsguy.com>, wes <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: >I do however stand corrected... Elder Library is NOT wallpaper, just not as >useful as Storage Annex in certain decks. I suppose it is a matter of >personal preference and deck design. The deck I have been using it in is a >!Brujah bruise and bleed which has a fairly tight focus. I use the Storage >Annex to store the duplicate Immortal Grapples or Legal Manipulations, or in >the beginning turns I store Master cards that I can't use until I get a >!Brujah out. Yeah -- a bruise and bleed deck is a great place for SA, where the balance between 'bruise' and 'bleed' can be tricky to maintain. >P.S. I like using ellipsi... but I was not aware that my writing style came >across as annoying. Comes from typing tech-notes and reading too much Celine >I guess. Hey, thanks for toning them down -- your last post was a lot more legible. Much appreciated. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:34:16 -0800, "wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote: >Storage Annex is a much better card than Elder Library IMHO... first off, >it's free... second, it's uncontestable... then the fact that you can play >multiples... think of a deck that requires let's say 5 specific cards played All of which are very nice. But you can only go get it during your Master phase, and you can only do THAT once. Your hand is still only 7 cards; if something comes up by surprise NOT during your master phase, the Storage Annex card is irrelevant. >together to produce a disastrous effect. Not a very good deck design to be >sure BUT you can save 4 of those cards on SA's while you wait for the 5th >card... and then go to work. Also, the fact that you switch cards during the But you must have drawn that 5th card during your master phase, or you won't be able to swap out the other cards to get it. Not to mention you have to have drawn the 4 Storage Annexes early on in the game; and that's 1/3rd of your average Master actions per game right there. (Most games take 10-12 turns.) >master phase is good too... So many of the cards that are relied upon in the >early game depend on either having a vampire out or having a vampire of a >specific clan out. If I draw let's say Amusement Park Hunting Ground in my >first seven cards... Most of the time I would need to wait at least two >turns to get a !Brujah out before I can play it, and discarding it seems >like a crappy option. If I draw Storage Annex and APHG I can play Storage >Annex with APHG on top of it... recycle two cards immediately and then just >wait until I get that !Bru out... not to be underestimated... IF you draw Storage Annex. But the premier purpose of this card, to me, is to do just this; move Master cards out of your hand and into a space where you can grab them WHEN you need them, and leave room for minion cards in your hand. Using it to store minion cards leaves me, well, a bit low and not all THAT warm and fuzzy feeling. Excluding, of course, cards like Bum's Rush. ;) >Also, it seems that in general it is the kind of card your opponents would >NOT necessarily want to Arson or anything... if you had a choice between a >SA and a HG, the HG would be the one to go. Storage Annex is useful for Interestingly, I had a case tonight where I was hoping to oust my prey, but had to move a card to even have a CHANCE, and had to have a lucky draw-up to actually oust. The only card in hand I could move was a Disputed Territory; I held 4 votes, and my prey and grandprey both had 3 each (my grandprey had 3 Embraces, Lucita, and Gratiano). My grandprey had a Storage Annex with an unknown card on it, and a Hunting Ground. I chose to move the *Hunting Ground* to my prey, because if the Annex contained a Minion Tap (VERY likely considering his minion selection), I would be totally screwed if I failed to oust, and the HG couldn't possibly matter enough in a single untap. (If you're curious... I did draw up the bleed action to oust. I don't know what the Annex contained at that time.) Given the choice, I will always Arson a Storage Annex, since more likely than not a useful card is being kept there for "later". A Hunting Ground, even combined with a Blood Doll, is just not enough short-term gain to matter, whereas a Storage Annex can potentially hose me up badly, especially when it contains a spare Direct Intervention or Minion Tap. >storing marginal/corner case cards moreso than overly useful cards... look >at Fast Hands which I keep ONE copy of in my !Bru deck... useful yes but >only in a very specific situation. SA can hold it until somebody gets a >weapon out and then I have more of a chance to use it. Until then, SA can be >forgotten and if someone targets it, no big deal. If you think about it... You'll find better things to stick in your Annex than Fast Hands; how about that extra Blood Doll you drew up? Shove that in there, discard the Fast Hands, and NOW you're talking. But since you know something good is always going to be in someone's Annex, having it Arsoned or stolen is very likely. I know that I'll personally be playing with at least two Arsons in every deck for awhile, until everyone gets tired of all the new cool Sabbat War locations. >regardless of how well your deck is designed, there will always be at least >one card in your hand that just doesn't fit the situation at hand. That card >is the one that goes on SA until a situation arises that is more favourable >to its use. > >I think this card just made Elder Library 'wallpaper'... any thoughts? Not a chance. Elder Library gives you an extra card 100% of the time; Storage Annex gives you an extra card during your Master phase. Both are locations; Elder Library costs more and is unique because of that 100%, which matters a LOT. Sure, I'll put a Storage Annex in decks I wouldn't put an Elder Library in; but if I'm relying/hoping on long multi-minion-card combos, I want a Library and a Fraggie or Barrens instead of two Storage Annexes. -- Derek Goon-of-the-Month club member

In article <91oo1...@enews2.newsguy.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] When we first saw Storage Annex Rob Treasure and John Eagles independently formed the view that it was a breakable card, and John at least has subsequently been trying VERY hard to break it - so far without success. i personally think it isn't all that good, because you end up like the Ass in Aesop's fable, starving between equidistant piles of carrots [and you get decked more quickly]. The intention, however, is great, and i agree with Xian that anything which promotes weird deck design is an unalloyed plus ... just like multiple ellipses ... of which ... you can never ... have too many ... IMHO > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

The key point i this debate is "What's in the Annex?".The major problem with SA is that it is a huge, stick out target. Yes people are less likely to Arson it initially, but if you make a habit of storing your power rare, or critical "for later", regular players are going to pick up on this. For example, I play my weenie deck and pull a Tribute to the Master adn a Storage Annex in my opening hand. My first reaction would be to Store it until I have enough weenies to use it effectively. However, if I do this regularly, and people spot it, I may as well paint a bullseye on the SA since it will get trashed or stolen real soon. With the Elder Library, you lose a card if it goes, but you get to pick - you can ditch that Shattering Blow you've had festering in your hand for 12 turns. I think that Storage Annex are probably best used in multiples. Or failing that, change the card on it EVERY TURN, or put a lesser card on it. There is probably more to be said for how to use an SA properly. Any further ideas? DH [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip> The intention, however, is > great, and i agree with Xian Damn! i meant Paul, of course. that anything which promotes weird deck > design is an unalloyed plus ... just like multiple ellipses ... of which > ... you can never ... have too many ... IMHO > > Sorry, Paul and Christian. i'll try to get my teasing right in future. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91q04m$l3l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] I think that indeed you should change it frequently. I used it to great advantage in the Antwerp tournament. When I got it in my first hand in the first game I put my Dramatic Upheavel under it, and never changed it. Used the DU 5 minutes prior time to steal a VP. Second game though, there were no combat decks and i was using it to ditch/store Obediences which were jamming my hand. It never was a target, but that could be the novelty facter. It was on the 2nd of december after all. I generally see it as a barrens without the discard factor. So I don't lose a resource, still the resource does not jam up my hand. Plus if you use it only once in your deck, your deck is not constructed around it, and let them arson it, at least my other locations are still alive, right? Had out the Barrens, 2 Storage Annexes and an Elder Library last night in a Nossie Combat deck. Quite entertaining. -- A.A.H. Tim Eijpe V:EKN Prince of Utrecht The Netherlands E-mail: time...@hotmail.com PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise Ancient-The Cainian Chronicles [ quoted text not captured ]

wes wrote: > If Elder Library is stolen, burned, whatever... you do also lose a card when > you discard down to a standard hand-size [side question: do you decide which > card to discard or is this a random discard? We always discarded randomly > which hurt a lot more] The discard is chosen by the Methuselah whose hand size is reduced. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In article <91q3kg$njc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <legb...@my-deja.com> wrote: > The intention, however, is >> great, and i agree with Xian >Damn! i meant Paul, of course. But you also agree with Xian, right? I mean, otherwise he's liable to sic Cardano on you. [ quoted text not captured ]

A couple of ways I've used storage annex: --to store contestable cards that others have in play. Particularly useful with Dreams, Palla Grande, etc., but also useful for locations. --to cycle my hand with existing discard mechanism. The Fragment can flush two annexes, the Barrens can flush one. --to convert clumping into turn sequencing. Example: My generic bleed/react deck has 2 SA in play (containing an action and a master), and draws into three reactions, two actions, a mod and a combat card. Depending on the table dynamic, I could load my hand several different ways, but for this point, I'll switch a reaction with the master and play the master. Whatever I draw, I'll have one action and one reaction available to switch out on my next turn.* --as arson bait. Regularly switch with a storage annex, even if you swap with another of the same card from your hand. You'll look busy, and it sometimes distracts would-be arsonists and rampagers from nuking other locations you have in play. Remember, minimal value of SA is that you get to discard a card. In general, there is strength in numbers. If I have multiple SA in play, the "I'm going to steal that super card" turns into a shell-game, especially if you switch frequently. Generally, I like to stack the first SA with a junk card, and start cycling after I get 2 or 3 out. So far, I'm trying to play with 2 for combat decks, 3 for bleed decks, 4 for master-rich decks. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91qrfj$2776$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: > In article <91q3kg$njc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <legb...@my-deja.com> wrote: > > > The intention, however, is > >> great, and i agree with Xian > > >Damn! i meant Paul, of course. > > But you also agree with Xian, right? I mean, otherwise he's liable > to sic Cardano on you. That's good enough to ensure my cringing acceptance of whatever Xian has to say. On-topic, i was kinda startled to see people slagging Cardano off in one of the Vampy beauty contest threads - IMO he is EXCELLENT, that superior fortitude is SOOOO important. <snip> [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91ss13$v21$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, legb...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <91qrfj$2776$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com>, > go...@best.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: > > But you also agree with Xian, right? I mean, otherwise he's liable > > to sic Cardano on you. > > That's good enough to ensure my cringing acceptance of whatever Xian > has to say. I'll have to remember that. :) > On-topic, i was kinda startled to see people slagging Cardano off > in one of the Vampy beauty contest threads - IMO he is EXCELLENT, that > superior fortitude is SOOOO important. No kidding. I thought the thread was packed enough as it was, but Cardano is up there, in my opinion. Much better than Muaziz, if you ask me. The free diablerie is *way* overrated if you ask me. It's tough to argue with (IIRC) ani aus cel DOM FOR THA. And he's a prince...probably the most useful title in the game, pound for pound. True, he is a 9-cap, but the combos you can work with him are so nice. The only thing you don't have that you might really want is AUS. cel THA, FOR THA, DOM THA, DOM FOR THA, ani cel THA...it's all good. Of course, the DOM FOR THA is the way to go, if you ask me, but it all works out. Xian, loving the Dawn Op, Skin of Night, Weather Control goodness... -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]