My own Dual Form questions...(Dual Form + Reform Body)

So, Bob (who has vic) uses Dual Form to create Pete. Then Bob has a nasty run-in with Fatima, and takes a quick trip to torpor. Life isn't looking for Pete, as he now burns. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/072c4997e3deba16 LSJ states that if Pete plays Reform Body, he goes to torpor instead of burning (as expected), but now Bob is burning -- that is, playing Reform Body "triggered" the Dual Form card again. But Bob can play a Reform Body of his own. #1: Why does this cause Pete to not burn (again)? Ie, why does the Dual Form not trigger a third time? #2: Julius (of "If Julius goes into torpor, burn him." fame) learns vic. He also meets Fatima, and takes a quick trip to torpor. Due to his card text, he burns. Can he play Reform Body to avoid burning? --Colin McGuigan

Colin McGuigan wrote: > So, Bob (who has vic) uses Dual Form to create Pete. Then Bob has a > nasty run-in with Fatima, and takes a quick trip to torpor. Life isn't > looking for Pete, as he now burns. > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/072c4997e3deba16 > > > LSJ states that if Pete plays Reform Body, he goes to torpor instead of > burning (as expected), but now Bob is burning -- that is, playing Reform > Body "triggered" the Dual Form card again. But Bob can play a Reform > Body of his own. > > #1: Why does this cause Pete to not burn (again)? Ie, why does the Dual > Form not trigger a third time? 1. Bob is unreadied => buddy burn => Burn Pete. 2. But Pete plays Reform Body => unready Pete => buddy burn => Burn Bob. 3. Bob plays Reform Body. He's already been unreadied (see 1) however, so no buddy burn. > #2: Julius (of "If Julius goes into torpor, burn him." fame) learns vic. > He also meets Fatima, and takes a quick trip to torpor. Due to his > card text, he burns. Can he play Reform Body to avoid burning? To forestall it for a split second, as Reform Body then sends him to torpor, which burns him. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Uzytkownik "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> napisal w wiadomosci news:FJEHd.4459$8u5....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Colin McGuigan wrote: > > So, Bob (who has vic) uses Dual Form to create Pete. Then Bob has a > > nasty run-in with Fatima, and takes a quick trip to torpor. Life isn't > > looking for Pete, as he now burns. > > > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/072c4997e3deba16 > > > > > > LSJ states that if Pete plays Reform Body, he goes to torpor instead of > > burning (as expected), but now Bob is burning -- that is, playing Reform > > Body "triggered" the Dual Form card again. But Bob can play a Reform > > Body of his own. > > > > #1: Why does this cause Pete to not burn (again)? Ie, why does the Dual > > Form not trigger a third time? > > 1. Bob is unreadied => buddy burn => Burn Pete. > 2. But Pete plays Reform Body => unready Pete => buddy burn => Burn Bob. Wouldn't that be chain-effect? If Pete is burned, Bob would be unaffected by DF-chain, althought Pete left ready region? Why does "saved" Bob burn, when Pete leaves ready region?

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:36:28 +0100, "sinaath" <sin...@kill.this.gmail.com> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] i suspect because the torporing of Pete is a new effect. The DF burned Pete. thus ends that chain. But now Pete, being a crazy alien viccissitudalist, plays a Reform Body. This unreadies him. a new unreadying. It's not a result of a Dual Form effect. that's where i'd put my money, anyway. at least a little bit of money. say, 80c. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

> #2: Julius (of "If Julius goes into torpor, burn him." fame) learns vic. > He also meets Fatima, and takes a quick trip to torpor. Due to his card > text, he burns. Can he play Reform Body to avoid burning? I think this is a trick question since as we all know, Fatima couldn't torpor anyone ever. Ankur Gupta Prince of West Lafayette

Uzytkownik "salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> napisal w wiadomosci news:rnpuu0hqfml3jdmqj...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] what new effect? FD already triggered hence both clones can stay in torpor. > Pete. thus ends that chain. But now Pete, being a crazy alien > viccissitudalist, plays a Reform Body. This unreadies him. a new > unreadying. It's not a result of a Dual Form effect. so what effect caused Bob to burn? Scary visions of his twin's death? > that's where i'd put my money, anyway. at least a little bit of money. > say, 80c. I'll bid $0.10 more for my opinion, let LSJ judge this. sinaath

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:55:26 +0100, "sinaath" <sin...@kill.this.gmail.com> scrawled: >> >> 1. Bob is unreadied => buddy burn => Burn Pete. >> >> 2. But Pete plays Reform Body => unready Pete => buddy burn => Burn >Bob. >> > >> >Wouldn't that be chain-effect? >> >If Pete is burned, Bob would be unaffected by DF-chain, althought Pete >left >> >ready region? >> >Why does "saved" Bob burn, when Pete leaves ready region? >> >> i suspect because the torporing of Pete is a new effect. The DF burned > >what new effect? FD already triggered hence both clones can stay in torpor. I guess i could have been more verbose. When the DF burninating occurs, that's it for that effect. But when you play Reform Body, RF _sends_ Pete to torpor, after the first DF effect has already been handled. Now, a new 'trigger' event occurs, and you must apply it's effect. >> Pete. thus ends that chain. But now Pete, being a crazy alien >> viccissitudalist, plays a Reform Body. This unreadies him. a new >> unreadying. It's not a result of a Dual Form effect. > > >so what effect caused Bob to burn? Scary visions of his twin's death? Pete being sent to torpor by Reform Body. DF burned Pete, which won't trigger Bob burning. BUT, Reform Body torpored Pete after that, which will trigger Bob's burning. >> that's where i'd put my money, anyway. at least a little bit of money. >> say, 80c. > >I'll bid $0.10 more for my opinion, let LSJ judge this. I'll raise you 10c, bring me to $1, and offer this: Trigger -> Effect. Bob makes Pete. Bob goes to topor: Trigger Effect: Pete is Burned. end effect Pete plays Reform Body which has: Pete goes to torpor: Trigger Effect: Bob is burned. which also nicely illustrates why just adding 'ready minion' into 'other is burned' in DF's text wouldn't quite give us text that creates a clearer wording for the current way DF works. However, i'd be happy to live with the burden of all those pro/vic decks having this extra little trick to play with. Go Rex! [ quoted text not captured ]

sinaath wrote: >>1. Bob is unreadied => buddy burn => Burn Pete. >>2. But Pete plays Reform Body => unready Pete => buddy burn => Burn Bob. > > > Wouldn't that be chain-effect? Yes. Scratch that. RF doesn't unready Pete -- he's already been unreadied by buddy burn. So no new buddy burn. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:31:01 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > 1. Bob is unreadied => buddy burn => Burn Pete. > 2. But Pete plays Reform Body => unready Pete => buddy burn => Burn Bob. > 3. Bob plays Reform Body. He's already been unreadied (see 1) however, > so no buddy burn. Basically he does not trigger Dual Form because he is redundantly sent to torpor, as he is already in torpor, which causes no tangible change in his state. -- Bye, Daneel

Uzytkownik "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> napisal w wiadomosci news:41EF9EA2...@white-wolf.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I won a $1 :) sinaath

LSJ wrote: > sinaath wrote: > >>> 1. Bob is unreadied => buddy burn => Burn Pete. >>> 2. But Pete plays Reform Body => unready Pete => buddy burn => Burn Bob. >> >> >> >> Wouldn't that be chain-effect? > > > Yes. Scratch that. > RF doesn't unready Pete -- he's already been unreadied by buddy burn. > So no new buddy burn. Is that a reversal of previous statements? Ie, if Bob goes to torpor, and Pete burns, but Pete plays Reform Body, Bob will no longer burn? My head hurts. --Colin McGuigan

Colin McGuigan wrote: > LSJ wrote: >> Yes. Scratch that. >> RF doesn't unready Pete -- he's already been unreadied by buddy burn. >> So no new buddy burn. > > Is that a reversal of previous statements? Ie, if Bob goes to torpor, > and Pete burns, but Pete plays Reform Body, Bob will no longer burn? Yes. See "scratch that" and the explanation (and the similar subsequent post stating that it is a reversal). [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:54:57 +0100, "sinaath" <sin...@kill.this.gmail.com> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] nononono. (insert quick backpedal here). I wasn't making a guess at a ruling, i was merely explaining _why_ i thought lsj's previous ruling worked. the fact that he has overturned that ruling doesn't mean my explanation was invalid. honest! :D could a face like that lie? [ quoted text not captured ]