Two somewhat complex questions

Well, I finally got a Mask of 1,000 Faces, and this question came up: If a Gangrel is taking a Gangrel-specific action (Ritual Challenge, say), and a Nosferatu or Malkavian becomes the acting minion through the Mask, does the action still happen? Does the minion gain the benefits (2 hand damage, in this case), even though it's the wrong clan? Another one: Say a minion takes an action that either requires a clan or discipline, is blocked, and goes through combat. Then another minion, who would have to have Obfuscate and sup. Protean, uses Hidden Lurker (which has been ruled to be an action modifier, not an action -- this is important) to enter combat and uses superior Form of Mist, which says in part that the minion continues the action at +1 stealth. Since Hidden Lurker is an action modifier, one could argue that the action still exists in potential form. So, is this minion taking a Govern the Unaligned action, even though it has no Dominate, or recruiting an Outcast Mage even though it's not a Tremere? Is a Hidden Lurker/sup. Form of Mist combo the poor player's Mask of 1,000 Faces (although vampires with Obfuscate and sup. Protean are rather hard to come by)? Thoughts on this would be appreciated. heckler the possibilities are fascinating -- Would you like a slice of his liver so nice? -Bryan O'Sullivan

gomi no sensei (pech...@nunki.usc.edu) wrote: : Well, I finally got a Mask of 1,000 Faces, and this question came up: : If a Gangrel is taking a Gangrel-specific action (Ritual Challenge, say), : and a Nosferatu or Malkavian becomes the acting minion through the Mask, : does the action still happen? Does the minion gain the benefits (2 hand : damage, in this case), even though it's the wrong clan? I would say yes, and cite the following precedence: Vampire A has Presence. Vampire B has Sup. Obfuscate and Dominate Vampire A performs a Presence Bleed. Vamp. B uses the Mask to replace Vamp A, and now continues the Presence Bleed _even though it does not have presence_. It is not free to add a Dominate Bleed Modifier to the card. The above example is legal and ratified by the DT, so I would say that in an analogous situation, the Ritual Challenge would ork for a Nosferatu if the Mask was used. : Another one: Say a minion takes an action that either requires a clan or : discipline, is blocked, and goes through combat. Then another minion, : who would have to have Obfuscate and sup. Protean, uses Hidden Lurker : (which has been ruled to be an action modifier, not an action -- this : is important) Actually, the last time I saw Tom rule on this, he declared that it was supposed to be a REACTION card, and not an action modifier. I believe he said Modifier the first time, which makes things all confused now. Which is is, Tom? : to enter combat and uses superior Form of Mist, which says : in part that the minion continues the action at +1 stealth. Since : Hidden Lurker is an action modifier, one could argue that the action still : exists in potential form. Stop right there. The action has been blocked, and therefore nullified, and this block has been accepted - therefore combat was entered. Even IF the HL is an action modifier and not a reaction, it would have to have its text changed to say 'Usable only by a vampire other than the acting vampire after this action has been blocked.' or somesuch in order that this confusion not arise. Shane Travis | A fanatic is someone who can't change his sht...@duke.usask.ca | mind and won't change the subject. Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | -- Winston Churchill

>Actually, the last time I saw Tom rule on this, he declared that it was >supposed to be a REACTION card, and not an action modifier. I believe he >said Modifier the first time, which makes things all confused now. Which >is is, Tom? Obviously an action modifier. It says you may use it onlt after one of your acting minions has been blocked, so it's meant to be used on your turn. "Puzzle" section: yes, this is one of the few cards which allows you to 'beat' Majesty. Of course, as an action it's easily blocked and rendered useless for this purpose, which is why it's important to correct the thing.

[ quoted text not captured ] Tom has always said action modifier. You've said (and been corrected, but obviously not sternly enough :-) reaction several times. The Reaction card is called Fact Reaction. Hidden Lurker is an Action Modifier. >: to enter combat and uses superior Form of Mist, which says >: in part that the minion continues the action at +1 stealth. Since >: Hidden Lurker is an action modifier, one could argue that the action still >: exists in potential form. >Stop right there. The action has been blocked, and therefore nullified, >and this block has been accepted - therefore combat was entered. Even IF >the HL is an action modifier and not a reaction, it would have to have its >text changed to say 'Usable only by a vampire other than the acting >vampire after this action has been blocked.' or somesuch in order that this >confusion not arise. Form of Mist un-blocks and un-nullifies the action. (card text). However, since this vampire is not the acting minion, superior form of Mist will not continue the action, just as if the blocking vampire had played superior Form of Mist. Combat simply ends.

gomi no sensei (pech...@nunki.usc.edu) wrote: : Well, I finally got a Mask of 1,000 Faces, and this question came up: : If a Gangrel is taking a Gangrel-specific action (Ritual Challenge, say), : and a Nosferatu or Malkavian becomes the acting minion through the Mask, : does the action still happen? Does the minion gain the benefits (2 hand : damage, in this case), even though it's the wrong clan? YES. It has been established (DTR) that M1000F CAN allow a minion to take an "illegal" action, and go all the way through with it. E.g., you can have Muddles attack a vampire, then use M1000F to declare that Lucretia was actually attacking him. : Another one: Say a minion takes an action that either requires a clan or : discipline, is blocked, and goes through combat. Then another minion, : who would have to have Obfuscate and sup. Protean, uses Hidden Lurker : (which has been ruled to be an action modifier, not an action -- this : is important) to enter combat and uses superior Form of Mist, which says : in part that the minion continues the action at +1 stealth. Since : Hidden Lurker is an action modifier, one could argue that the action still : exists in potential form. So, is this minion taking a Govern the Unaligned : action, even though it has no Dominate, or recruiting an Outcast Mage even : though it's not a Tremere? Is a Hidden Lurker/sup. Form of Mist combo the : poor player's Mask of 1,000 Faces (although vampires with Obfuscate and : sup. Protean are rather hard to come by)? Daaaaamn...that's a tricky one. At first glance, I would say...yes. But I can't back that up with a ruling. -- Meow!

In article <3kgrvp$t...@nunki.usc.edu>, gomi no sensei <pech...@nunki.usc.edu> wrote: >Well, I finally got a Mask of 1,000 Faces, and this question came up: >If a Gangrel is taking a Gangrel-specific action (Ritual Challenge, say), As everyone else has said, yes, you can use Mask to perform 'illegal' actions. >Another one: Say a minion takes an action that either requires a clan or >discipline, is blocked, and goes through combat. Then another minion, >who would have to have Obfuscate and sup. Protean, uses Hidden Lurker >(which has been ruled to be an action modifier, not an action -- this >is important) to enter combat and uses superior Form of Mist, which says >in part that the minion continues the action at +1 stealth. Since >Hidden Lurker is an action modifier, one could argue that the action still >exists in potential form. So, is this minion taking a Govern the Unaligned >action, even though it has no Dominate, or recruiting an Outcast Mage even >though it's not a Tremere? Is a Hidden Lurker/sup. Form of Mist combo the >poor player's Mask of 1,000 Faces (although vampires with Obfuscate and >sup. Protean are rather hard to come by)? No, I don't think that the action can continue. Hidden Lurker does not make the new combatant become the acting minion, it just lets her fight. Only the acting minion can continue the action (which is why Mask specifically states that this minion is the new acting minion). Using Form of Mist in this combat is therefore more analagous to using it as a blocker rather than as an acting minion. So it just becomes a combat ends strike. Of course, this could be the start of yet another discussion... | If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--* | PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu | ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** | +-------------------------------------+---------------------------------- "Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK