When Does Combat End

I was wondering when in a given situation does combat precisely end, defined by you no longer being able to play combat cards. Combat occurs, you send your opponent to torpor. You play Amaranth to diablerise your opponent. A blood hunt vote is successfully called. You're burned. The question is because at this stage, are you still in combat, namely is there a window to play Ashes to Ashes at fortitude to send your vampire to torpor instead of being burned. cheers shawn

In message <9v9k34lo4j8n5oo1k...@4ax.com>, shawn stanley <stan...@pandius.com> writes: >Combat occurs, you send your opponent to torpor. >You play Amaranth to diablerise your opponent. >A blood hunt vote is successfully called. >You're burned. > >The question is because at this stage, are you still in combat, namely >is there a window to play Ashes to Ashes at fortitude to send your >vampire to torpor instead of being burned. You can't play Ashes to Ashes at this point. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/817d0c6d3a5a6fdd *** > In other words is a bloodhunt caused by amaranth still in > combat, since Abandoning the flesh can not be played as an > actionmodifier? (same goes for reform body) The bloodhunt it conducted independently of the surrounding combat and action. No combat cards, action modifiers, or reaction cards may be played. *** -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

> The bloodhunt it conducted independently of the surrounding combat and > action. No combat cards, action modifiers, or reaction cards may be > played. > *** Just to add to that: While a bloodhunt is a referendum, it is not an action. Therefore action modifiers or reactions (such as Bewitching Oration or Delaying Tactics) cannot be used during a bloodhunt. You *can* use Ferraille or Ventrue Headquarters, since they just say "referendum" and not "political action". You cannot, however, use your Alamut, Bastille Opera House or Esgrima since they all say "during a political action". You *can* also throw a vote card from your hand or burn the edge (or both) though.

[ quoted text not captured ] Combat ended when the Amaranth resolved. The Amaranthed vampire could have played Ashes to Ashes before said resolution, but combat is over a long time before the diablerist is burned by the blood hunt. This is a completely separate issue from the fact that, although the blood hunt happens during an action, it is conducted 'outside the action' so that no action mods or reactions can be played during the blood hunt referrendum.

In message <a7b79299-685f-4d6a...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroup s.com>, Malone <kffo...@indiana.edu> writes: >Combat ended when the Amaranth resolved. The Amaranthed vampire could >have played Ashes to Ashes before said resolution, but combat is over >a long time before the diablerist is burned by the blood hunt. No, the bloodhunt occurs before the end of the combat. It's just not part of it. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/ee9c801462746380 *** Because bloodhunt happens immediately (before combat ends). *** http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6888fc29e5ce1a4e *** > my Illusion of the Kindred diablerizes another vampire through > Amaranth, a bloodhunt is called and it is not in my favor : > A) does my illusion burn and goes to ash heap? > B) does my illusion burn and goes to ash heap and then is removed? > C) does my illusion simply remove from the game? > D) does my illusion remove before the bloodhunt (since the combat > would be ended)? A. *** Note that it's A and not D. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 26 May 2008 18:46:58 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In message <a7b79299-685f-4d6a...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroup >s.com>, Malone <kffo...@indiana.edu> writes: >>Combat ended when the Amaranth resolved. The Amaranthed vampire could >>have played Ashes to Ashes before said resolution, but combat is over >>a long time before the diablerist is burned by the blood hunt. > >No, the bloodhunt occurs before the end of the combat. It's just not >part of it. > >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/ee9c801462746380 >*** >Because bloodhunt happens immediately (before combat ends). >*** that seems to confuse your earlier answer James. So the bloodhunt is happening before combat ends. Then the bloodhunt ends. Then presumably combat ends, since it hasn't ended yet. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3akm34pn293r9moba...@4ax.com>, shawn stanley <stan...@pandius.com> writes: >that seems to confuse your earlier answer James. > >So the bloodhunt is happening before combat ends. Then the bloodhunt >ends. Then presumably combat ends, since it hasn't ended yet. No, my earlier answer stands. The referendum+bloodhunt happens before the combat ends, but that isn't relevant. Even though it will be occurring during an action (and potentially also during a combat), you cannot use action modifiers, reactions or combat cards on it. Essentially, imagine the bloodhunt happening over there --------> in a parallel timeline to the ordinary one. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 27 May 2008 01:33:40 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In message <3akm34pn293r9moba...@4ax.com>, shawn stanley ><stan...@pandius.com> writes: >>that seems to confuse your earlier answer James. >> >>So the bloodhunt is happening before combat ends. Then the bloodhunt >>ends. Then presumably combat ends, since it hasn't ended yet. > >No, my earlier answer stands. > >The referendum+bloodhunt happens before the combat ends, but that isn't >relevant. Even though it will be occurring during an action (and >potentially also during a combat), you cannot use action modifiers, >reactions or combat cards on it. > >Essentially, imagine the bloodhunt happening over there --------> >in a parallel timeline to the ordinary one. I didn't say it didn't stand it just confuses things. You point to a post that says combat hasn't ended when the referendum and a bloodhunt is occuring. Combat hadn't ended, and yet I can't play combat cards - all I'm saying is that that confuses me. And imagining parallel timelines doesn't really help it become less confusing.

On May 27, 11:48 am, shawn stanley <stan_...@pandius.com> wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 2008 01:33:40 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> > wrote: > > > > > > >In message <3akm34pn293r9mobad2aa1bja9eq6sj...@4ax.com>, shawn stanley > ><stan_...@pandius.com> writes: > >>that seems to confuse your earlier answer James. > > >>So the bloodhunt is happening before combat ends. Then the bloodhunt > >>ends. Then presumably combat ends, since it hasn't ended yet. > > >No, my earlier answer stands. > > >The referendum+bloodhunt happens before the combat ends, but that isn't > >relevant. Even though it will be occurring during an action (and > >potentially also during a combat), you cannot use action modifiers, > >reactions or combat cards on it. > > >Essentially, imagine the bloodhunt happening over there --------> > >in a parallel timeline to the ordinary one. > > I didn't say it didn't stand it just confuses things. You point to a > post that says combat hasn't ended when the referendum and a bloodhunt > is occuring. Combat hadn't ended, and yet I can't play combat cards - > all I'm saying is that that confuses me. And imagining parallel > timelines doesn't really help it become less confusing.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - OK a simpler way of putting it might be this: You can't play any cards during a blood hunt. At all. Unless the card actually says "play this card during a blood hunt" or "play this card to cancel a blood hunt" (there are a very small number of of masters that let you do that, e.g. Ebony Fox Hunt, Gangrel Conspiracy) or something similar. By default, i.e. unless specifically allowed otherwise by card text, nobody can play any cards of any type during a blood hunt. That's a pretty simple rule to remember. (note: you can pitch vote cards for votes, but that's not really playing a card. You can also play effects like tapping a Barrens to try and cycle into a vote card, or tapping a Ventrue HQ for votes). OK it's not actually that simple :) but that's about as simple as it's going to get. The confusion arose because you thought it was a timing issue, i.e. has combat ended or not. It's not about timing. It's the rules. The rules say you can't play cards* during a blood hunt. It sounds weird but James was right; it does exist in a weird kind of parallel universe, outside the timing structure of the action (and possible combat/s of that action). * - I'm pretty sure the rules actually specify that you can't play "actions modifiers, reactions and combat cards"; but by default you can't play other card types either, e.g. can't play master or event cards, since you can't play those in the minion phase anyway, unless specifically allowed by card text, and you obviously can't play an action card because you're in the middle of an action.

In message <1c13e041-a023-4b13...@p39g2000prm.googlegroup s.com>, Dasein <dasei...@hotmail.com> writes: >The >rules say you can't play cards* during a blood hunt. ... >* - I'm pretty sure the rules actually specify that you can't play >"actions modifiers, reactions and combat cards"; but by default you >can't play other card types either, e.g. can't play master or event >cards, since you can't play those in the minion phase anyway, unless >specifically allowed by card text, and you obviously can't play an >action card because you're in the middle of an action. Out-of-turn masters can be played during the referendum (assuming it's not your turn), without the need for explicit enabling text referencing the bloodhunt. Of course, most out-of-turn masters aren't playable here because they have particular criteria to be met. However, you can play Vox Senis (to the ash heap) during a bloodhunt referendum to gain three votes. There would also be no problem with me (assuming it wasn't my turn) playing Sudden Reversal or Wash on that. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/c61198740c02a96f *** Vox Senis can be used in the blood hunt referendum. *** It does appear to be the case that you can't play any minion cards, though. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 26 May 2008 21:09:01 -0700 (PDT), Dasein <dasei...@hotmail.com> wrote: >The confusion arose because you thought it was a timing issue, i.e. >has combat ended or not. It's not about timing. It's the rules. The >rules say you can't play cards* during a blood hunt. It sounds weird >but James was right; it does exist in a weird kind of parallel >universe, outside the timing structure of the action (and possible >combat/s of that action). > > >* - I'm pretty sure the rules actually specify that you can't play >"actions modifiers, reactions and combat cards"; but by default you >can't play other card types either, e.g. can't play master or event >cards, since you can't play those in the minion phase anyway, unless >specifically allowed by card text, and you obviously can't play an >action card because you're in the middle of an action. close, the rules say you can't play action modifiers or reation cards during the referendum. It doesn't mention combat cards, and it doesn't mention the bloodhunt itself. It's more confusing by an earlier line in the rules "If the referendum passes, a blood hunt will be called, and the diablerist is burned." seems to indicate that everything is happening in distinct events. The other confusing bit, is why are we saying that combat is still occurring when the referendum and bloodhunt is happening? Why does it matter at that stage if combat is occurring? What is this distinction allowing me to do or not do than if we said that combat immediately ends when someone is going to torpor, except for the selfmade Amaranth window, or something like that?

shawn stanley wrote: > On Mon, 26 May 2008 21:09:01 -0700 (PDT), Dasein > <dasei...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> * - I'm pretty sure the rules actually specify that you can't play >> "actions modifiers, reactions and combat cards"; but by default you >> can't play other card types either, e.g. can't play master or event >> cards, since you can't play those in the minion phase anyway, unless >> specifically allowed by card text, and you obviously can't play an >> action card because you're in the middle of an action. > > close, the rules say you can't play action modifiers or reation cards > during the referendum. It doesn't mention combat cards, and it > doesn't mention the bloodhunt itself. It's more confusing by an > earlier line in the rules "If the referendum passes, a blood hunt will > be called, and the diablerist is burned." seems to indicate that > everything is happening in distinct events. It indicates, correctly, that things happen in a particular order, yeah. Successful blood hunt referendum means a blood hunt is called on the diablerist, which burns the diablerist. > The other confusing bit, is why are we saying that combat is still > occurring when the referendum and bloodhunt is happening? Why does it > matter at that stage if combat is occurring? What is this distinction > allowing me to do or not do than if we said that combat immediately > ends when someone is going to torpor, except for the selfmade Amaranth > window, or something like that? Because the Amaranth-playing vampire, after surviving the blood hunt referendum, can play Taste of Vitae after the blood hunt bubble and before combat ends.