Well, we found the closest thing to an "unbalancing" card last night. The
card is "Misdirection". It was the cause of two Methuselah's demise. There
seems to be NOTHING anyone can do to stop this card from being played since
it is a Master card (why did they have to call them that? just reminds me
of credit bills). It seems to be an uncommon.
--
Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov
In article <332iqn$9l4@fnnews.fnal.gov> ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
>Well, we found the closest thing to an "unbalancing" card last night. The
>card is "Misdirection". It was the cause of two Methuselah's demise. There
>seems to be NOTHING anyone can do to stop this card from being played since
>it is a Master card (why did they have to call them that? just reminds me
>of credit bills). It seems to be an uncommon.
>
>--
>Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov
I have used this card to take out methuselahs as well. But I would like
to make a few points here.
A) yes this card is powerful, but it does cost blood to tap the minions youtarget.
B) it is more deadly to players who play with fewer vampires.
C) There are several things which you can do that will allow a tapped vampire
to block. I might not have the titles right, but Rat's warning, and awake
with evening freshness immediatly spring to mind. there is also a card that
can be used by a tapped justicar...
all in all your opponent is taking a chance when spending the blood, probably
hoping for a finishing blow if you manage to untap one of your vampires to help
block a bleed, the misderection has effectively backfired on the methuselah who
played it, since he has lost blood equivalent to a bleed (usually more than one).
Thanks for Posting the FAQ robert... you have already distinguished yourself
as a great poster in the Jyhad community :)
Tim
Roberto Ullfig (ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov) wrote:
: Well, we found the closest thing to an "unbalancing" card last night. The
: card is "Misdirection". It was the cause of two Methuselah's demise. There
: seems to be NOTHING anyone can do to stop this card from being played since
: it is a Master card (why did they have to call them that? just reminds me
: of credit bills). It seems to be an uncommon.
There is an out-of-turn master card called Sudden Reversal that says:
(Spoiler:)
Burn a master card played by another Methuselah. That card has no effect,
but any blood spent on the master card is retrieved by the Methuselah who
paid it.
You could use this to counter misdirection.
Grendel -----=
grendel@csos.orst.edu
Roberto Ullfig (ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov) wrote:
: Well, we found the closest thing to an "unbalancing" card last night.
The
: card is "Misdirection". It was the cause of two Methuselah's demise.
There
: seems to be NOTHING anyone can do to stop this card from being played
since
: it is a Master card (why did they have to call them that? just reminds
me
: of credit bills). It seems to be an uncommon.
Ah, no, this card is easily foiled with that delightful cup of Jyhad Java:
"Wake with Evening's Freshness". This allows a tapped vampire to attempt
to block. A common minion card usable by all vampires you'll want in your
deck under all circumstances as it allows your vampires to do something on
your turn and then block.
I don't think it is *that* unbalancing. I was way behind in a game. I
had matched my opponent's number of active vamps, but he had a LOAD of
equipment and masters going on. I was getting ready to lose.
Then came up one of my 3 misdirections. I was able to get in a position
where he tapped one of his minions, and I had one more pool.
I spent all but one of my pool to misdirect all his minions, and then
killed him. It makes a player that could go on runaway think twice about
using his minions up and over-extending his pool use on ancillary items
like expensive equipment and masters.
--
--[ Jason R. Newquist ]------[ UC Davis ]------[ jrnewquist@ucdavis.edu ]--
----[ http://pubweb.ucdavis.edu/Documents/Quotations/web/websurf.html ]----
In article <Cuy83o.H6z@ucdavis.edu>, ez031236@dale.ucdavis.edu (Swedish Chef) writes:
> I don't think it is *that* unbalancing. I was way behind in a game. I
> had matched my opponent's number of active vamps, but he had a LOAD of
> equipment and masters going on. I was getting ready to lose.
>
> Then came up one of my 3 misdirections. I was able to get in a position
> where he tapped one of his minions, and I had one more pool.
>
> I spent all but one of my pool to misdirect all his minions, and then
> killed him. It makes a player that could go on runaway think twice about
> using his minions up and over-extending his pool use on ancillary items
> like expensive equipment and masters.
I think your example helped to prove the point. You played Misdirection and
won as a direct result of that one card.
My roommate has Misdirection. He has played it on me twice and both times it
was the direct reason for his victory. Any card that by its play causes a
direct victory is unbalancing. Yes, I have the card that burns a Master Card
that has been played, but that doesn't cut it. Misdirection is a Kill card
whenver you have it. The one that I have is only really effective IF I have
it when he plays Misdirection. They are not equivalent.
Just my opinions,
David
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Greenwald "We can print our own money here
greenwal@bnr.ca If you let us do a piece on you
BNR inc. Atlanta, GA We can take you to pieces" Paper Lies by Marillion
In article <33au62$1ne@bmerha64.bnr.ca>, greenwal@bnr.ca (David Greenwald) writes:
|> In article <Cuy83o.H6z@ucdavis.edu>, ez031236@dale.ucdavis.edu (Swedish Chef) writes:
|> > I don't think it is *that* unbalancing. I was way behind in a game. I
|> > had matched my opponent's number of active vamps, but he had a LOAD of
|> > equipment and masters going on. I was getting ready to lose.
|> >
|> > Then came up one of my 3 misdirections. I was able to get in a position
|> > where he tapped one of his minions, and I had one more pool.
|> >
|> > I spent all but one of my pool to misdirect all his minions, and then
|> > killed him. It makes a player that could go on runaway think twice about
|> > using his minions up and over-extending his pool use on ancillary items
|> > like expensive equipment and masters.
|>
|> I think your example helped to prove the point. You played Misdirection and
|> won as a direct result of that one card.
|>
|> My roommate has Misdirection. He has played it on me twice and both times it
|> was the direct reason for his victory. Any card that by its play causes a
|> direct victory is unbalancing. Yes, I have the card that burns a Master Card
|> that has been played, but that doesn't cut it. Misdirection is a Kill card
|> whenver you have it. The one that I have is only really effective IF I have
|> it when he plays Misdirection. They are not equivalent.
|>
I have only one Misdirection card but *every* time I have killed my prey,
it was with this card. There just are not enough cards that will help prevent
it's effects. I have heard that the playtesters warned WotC about this card.
Maybe it was too late to remove it? In any event, I think our group will ban
it when we play from now on.
--
Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov
In article <33ee1o$mh6@hobbes.cc.uga.edu>,
Robert <stone@phoenix.cs.uga.edu> wrote:
>
>Also, if he had one of the cards mentioned already, a Sudden Reversal, etc, I
>would have only had about two blood left in my pool and I wouldn't have
>finished him off. My predator probably would have beat me up with a
>stealthy attack.
Not quite. If a card is blocked, the costs are not paid. Is Sudden
Reversal different? I haven't seen that card.
Anyway, just because a card is often the means by which the coup de grace
is delivered, doesn't make it unbalanced. Something must have happened
that left you vulnerable to that card. Perhaps the result of many rounds
of being bled by stealth, or spending too much blood on submachineguns,
or whatever. One card doesn't win the game by itself.
***
hmd
Some questions and comments on the game... first a card question...
One of my cards (I believe it is a reaction card called Deflection) costs
blood to play... Well no problem, I understand how that works EXCEPT that
the blood usually is filled with white and located beside the picture if it
is the minion that pays, and it is usually black filled and located beside
the text (bottom left corner really) if it is the Methuselah that pays (from
the pool...). Now on the Deflection card ( I hope I'm naming the right card
...) it has a black filled blood drop beside the picture... Printing
error? Should this blood drop be filled white (indicating the playing
minion loses a blood) or should it be located at the bottom left of the
card (indicating that the pool pays the blood)...
Also, about contested cards... Let's say my opponent hass a vampire and
loads it with stuff and then I pull out the same vampire... I see this as
a struggle between myself and the other methusela to control the vampire.
Sure we have two cards but they are the SAME vampire... The rules state
that when one of the methuselas gives up and relenquishes control the
extra cards are burned.. I prefer to play such that since the cards are on
the vampire they go to the one which wins the contest... Any comments?
--
WANTED: One (1) good signature file.
Top Dollars Paid! Ross Bellinger
Bellinge@Emr1.emr.ca
In article <1994Aug24.150233.26583@emr1.emr.ca>,
Ross Bellinger <bellinge@emr1.emr.ca> wrote:
> Also, about contested cards... Let's say my opponent hass a vampire and
>loads it with stuff and then I pull out the same vampire... I see this as
>a struggle between myself and the other methusela to control the vampire.
>Sure we have two cards but they are the SAME vampire... The rules state
>that when one of the methuselas gives up and relenquishes control the
>extra cards are burned.. I prefer to play such that since the cards are on
>the vampire they go to the one which wins the contest... Any comments?
Comment 1: Using a house rule like that will mess you up when you play
agains folks who play "by the book".
Comment 2: You could think of the equipment as stuff that's now owned
by the Minion, but stuff that's used by the Minion under the
sufferance of the controlling Methuselah. In that case, it'd make
sense for the stuff to get burned with the Minion.
--
Doug DeJulio
ddj@zardoz.elbows.org
Ross Bellinger <bellinge@emr1.emr.ca> wrote:
> One of my cards (I believe it is a reaction card called Deflection) costs
>blood to play... Well no problem, I understand how that works EXCEPT that
>the blood usually is filled with white and located beside the picture if it
>is the minion that pays, and it is usually black filled and located beside
>the text (bottom left corner really) if it is the Methuselah that pays (from
>the pool...). Now on the Deflection card ( I hope I'm naming the right card
>...) it has a black filled blood drop beside the picture... Printing
>error? Should this blood drop be filled white (indicating the playing
>minion loses a blood) or should it be located at the bottom left of the
>card (indicating that the pool pays the blood)...
As far as I could tell from reading the rules, there's no reason why
a blood cost printed in the middle left side *couldn't* be paid from your
pool rather than always being paid by the vampire in question. It could
just be that they always want to put costs for cards requiring a Discipline
to be listed by the discipline. Whether or not this is a misprint is on
my list of questions.
Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
aahz@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
aahz@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) announces with a firm voice and the wrath of god:
>> <original opinion on misdirection deleted>>Refusing to play with misdirection just because it can be a game-ender
>is odd... In Magic, do you refuse to play against Lure? Riptide? Flood?
>Cleanse? Winter Blast? Fireball? Disintegrate? It's inevitable that
>in every game, some card will creep in that will tend to be a game-ender...
This isn't really the point. M:TG is a Very different game to Jyhad. And
the fact that there are a huge number of game ending cards in M:TG isn't
the issue - after all, M:TG duels tend to be short and deadly. Jyhad
doesn't play that way at all. The fact that misdirection is frequently
THE game ender is an issue. When you lose against, say, lure, in M:TG
you build a pack that can beat it. You can do that because that is the
nature of the game. However, when you lose against Misdirection, what
do you do? Put in more Wake with Evening freshnesses? Play with clans
with animalism and put in Rat's Guidance? How much of your deck are
you planning to use up on these cards? Having one in your hand
is rarely enough. And as for sudden reversal - we have two between nine
players. It's hardly an issue. They shouldn't have to go out and buy
more cards to strike a game balance.
>perhaps you should explore ways to get around Misdirection, rather than
>banning it.
Why don't they just agree to leave out Misdirection. We haven't had the
same problems, but I can see how they can happen. We leave certain cards
out because they unbalance our play and because we simply can't afford to spend
hundreds of pounds on Jyhad cards. When I was the only person with the
Radio station, I left it out, because it wasn't fair on the others. Individual
groups should feel free to strike their own game balance. That's the point,
isn't it?
>To my mind, if my predator wants to tie up a slot in their
>hand to hold onto Misdirection for however many turns, they're welcome
>to do so... I'd rather they not have the flexibility that seventh card
>would have provided.
They don't need flexibility if they know they can kill you outright
with Misdirection.
What I'm saying is; Misdirection will probably not be a problem once
you've spent vast amounts of money. If like us, you don't intend to
(or can't afford to) spend that much, chose the cards that unbalance
your group and leave them out. It'll be a lot easier.
I'll get down off my soap box now... 8)
Mad Chris.
stone@phoenix.cs.uga.edu (Robert) types with vigour:
>Good idea. I've discovered that having vampires out in quantity is
>quite useful. If you've got 5 vampires out, and they're all untapped
>(by some miracle) that's FIVE blood that must be spent on a misdirection!
>That's quite a bit. When someone gets too low on blood, they're subject
>to a surprise clandestine execution no matter how many nasties they have
>in play.
I can't speak for anyone else, but by the time someone has 5 vampires
out, they are instantly labelled as THE TARGET. Sooner or later, an
ancilla empowerment or two is played, and they are out. One of the things
I like about the game is that the person who takes the Visible lead
gets hunted down by the others. The best way to achieve victory is
to not Appear to be in the lead...
Mad Chris.
In article <33ig6e$a1e@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>, batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Mad Chris) writes:
>This isn't really the point. M:TG is a Very different game to Jyhad. And
>the fact that there are a huge number of game ending cards in M:TG isn't
>the issue - after all, M:TG duels tend to be short and deadly. Jyhad
>doesn't play that way at all. The fact that misdirection is frequently
>THE game ender is an issue.
I seem to remember the same problems with Channel + Fireball, in fact
in many ways its the same issue, though a little more extreme. But
also bear in mind that while Misdirection is dangerous as it weakens
the Methuselah as well, and gives the chance for other players to kill
off the one using Misdirection.
>When you lose against, say, lure, in M:TG
>you build a pack that can beat it. You can do that because that is the
>nature of the game. However, when you lose against Misdirection, what
>do you do? Put in more Wake with Evening freshnesses? Play with clans
>with animalism and put in Rat's Guidance? How much of your deck are
>you planning to use up on these cards? Having one in your hand
>is rarely enough. And as for sudden reversal - we have two between nine
>players. It's hardly an issue. They shouldn't have to go out and buy
>more cards to strike a game balance.
Well, the question is how many times are you going to go up against
Misdirection? If a Methuselah keeps playing Misdirections, they're
going to be in pretty rotten shape. Plus there are multiple cards that
deal with Misdirection, and they can be used for other purposes as well.
>Why don't they just agree to leave out Misdirection. We haven't had the
>same problems, but I can see how they can happen. We leave certain cards
>out because they unbalance our play and because we simply can't afford to
>spend hundreds of pounds on Jyhad cards. When I was the only person with the
>Radio station, I left it out, because it wasn't fair on the others. Individual
>groups should feel free to strike their own game balance. That's the point,
>isn't it?
The problem is that there are people with different distributions of
rares and uncommons, and even commons, and in the long run its easier
just to work out ways of dealing with cards rather than saying "Card X
is unfair, I don't want to play anyone with it."
Face it, Misdirection is out there, and there are people who are
building decks with it. In the long run, learning to cope with the
card is a more productive strategy.
>They don't need flexibility if they know they can kill you outright
>with Misdirection.
The question is, how can you kill someone outright with Misdirection?
Under what circumstances is it dangerous say on turn two?
--
Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Synchronicity Daemon, Priest of Shub-Internet
Disclaimer: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but flames are just ignored
mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet an78529@anon.penet.fi
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
bellinge@emr1.emr.ca (Ross Bellinger) writes:
> Also, about contested cards... Let's say my opponent hass a vampire and
>loads it with stuff and then I pull out the same vampire... I see this as
>a struggle between myself and the other methusela to control the vampire.
>Sure we have two cards but they are the SAME vampire... The rules state
>that when one of the methuselas gives up and relenquishes control the
>extra cards are burned.. I prefer to play such that since the cards are on
>the vampire they go to the one which wins the contest... Any comments?
That sounds like a possibly neat house rule, but it is not how the actual
rules read. I kinda like it though... (Course, I think I'm going to be
playing Malkavians).
> Bellinge@Emr1.emr.ca
--
| kreme@netcom.com \ 1015 South Gaylord, Denver, CO 80209 #100 |
| PGP Fingerprint \ 1D 5E F7 C8 7E C2 F9 87 0F 86 C9 B0 D2 63 9C B2 |
| [303/722-2009] Vox \ Maximum Aisle: "State of the art in long-term |
| [303/777-2911] Data \ incarceration." Convicts Union Local #2134 |
In article <33ig6e$a1e@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>,
Mad Chris <batemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>This isn't really the point. M:TG is a Very different game to Jyhad. And
>the fact that there are a huge number of game ending cards in M:TG isn't
>the issue - after all, M:TG duels tend to be short and deadly. Jyhad
>doesn't play that way at all. The fact that misdirection is frequently
>THE game ender is an issue. When you lose against, say, lure, in M:TG
>you build a pack that can beat it. You can do that because that is the
>nature of the game. However, when you lose against Misdirection, what
>do you do? Put in more Wake with Evening freshnesses? Play with clans
>with animalism and put in Rat's Guidance? How much of your deck are
>you planning to use up on these cards? Having one in your hand
>is rarely enough. And as for sudden reversal - we have two between nine
>players. It's hardly an issue. They shouldn't have to go out and buy
>more cards to strike a game balance.
>
Hmmm... Well, last night I had a very distressing misdirection experience
that proved (for me, at least) that the card is not a total game-winner.
I still think that it is a powerful card, but there are two things that
I think make it not a total screw. First, there are a number of cards
that let you block and then untap - majesty and a protean card that I
don't remember offhand - for these you have to be untapped at first, but
if someone uses misdirection and chooses not to tap all of your minions,
or if you can get that one guy with superiour presence untapped with
wake w/ evening's freshness, etc. then it will let you hold off someone else
as well. Also, as mentioned before, there are a few cards that let you
untap a tapped vampire - although I'd agree most are animalism - but my
preferred way of dealing w/ the problem is saving up one of those cards in
my hand and use the majesty for my second block because this lets me a)
fool my opponent into thinking i have less blockers than i really have and
b) pound the @#*& out of two diff of his/her vamps. As a matter of fact
sometimes I even like it when my opponent does this if i can really damage
one or two of his vampires from surprise (even if a bleed also gets through
on me)
But, before last night I still thought that misdirection was a pretty butch
card. The situation was that I had a potential 9 total bleed if I could
get all of my guys through (4 vampires, 2 of them +1 bleeders, two +1 bleed
presence cards and a +1 computer hacking) My opponent had 8 blood and I had
about 5 and was not doing too well - but he only had two vampires untapped.
So, I played misdirection and attempted to bleed w/ one of my normal vamps
for 1 point (so if he did have an untap card I could still do the 8 pts
necessary w/ the rest of my vamps) He blocks w/ rats warning. Cool. Then
I attempt to bleed w/ Appollonius using social charm (total 3 bleed) He
blocks with another rats warning! Argh. Then, I think, hmmm... I need
to at least get the edge at this point. Attempt another 3 bleed with 3rd
vamp - he blocks with wake w/ evening's freshness! *sigh* I end up with
nothing to show for misdirection except -2 blood and several tapped vampires
(my own included). Admittedly, this is an extreme case (and I actually
didn't lose this game until my opponent did 1 agg. damage to appolonius,
put him in torpor, stole him w/ grave robbing and forced me to diablerize
him rather than let myself be crushed by one of my own vampires) but I
have come to the conclusion that not having cards (at least 1 or 2 for
emergencies) that untap your vampires is a serious deck weakness and that
it's not misdirection that is really the problem. Oh, and the other
thing I wanted to mention is that unless you have some other really
serious combinations (like the social charm card) that all misdirection
is going to give you is the edge and a small loss of blood (1 or 2 per
vampire you send). And, I've lost more games due to ancilla empowerment
than misdirection when I've gone down to ~5 blood and hovered there too long.
Both I and the guy I was playing have bought 1 deck and 4 boosters.
Scott
storm@tamsun.tamu.edu
Inbatemanc@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Mad Chris) (Mutant for Hire) writes:
>When you lose against, say, lure, in M:TG
>you build a pack that can beat it. You can do that because that is the
>nature of the game. However, when you lose against Misdirection, what
>do you do? Put in more Wake with Evening freshnesses? Play with clans
>with animalism and put in Rat's Guidance? How much of your deck are
>you planning to use up on these cards? Having one in your hand
>is rarely enough. And as for sudden reversal - we have two between nine
>players. It's hardly an issue. They shouldn't have to go out and buy
>more cards to strike a game balance.
God, I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, but YES, you should
load your deck with lots of Wake with Evening Freshness (and some Rat's
guidance, if you can), regardless of whether your opponent plays with
Misdirection. I've been playing with as many as 10 in a deck and I still
haven't got enough. I haven't even run into a Misdirection. With lots of
Wakes, every one of your vampires can act every turn, and you still can
protect yourself. That is a tremendous advantage. If you have too many
Wakes, use them to block +1 stealth actions - you will fail to block, and
get to discard the Wake.
Sorry for the lateness of response.
In article <33l7a8$dak@tamsun.tamu.edu>, storm@tamsun.tamu.edu (Edward S Shaw) writes:
<example on Misdirection not helping deleted>
Once again, I think your example shows how powerful Misdirection is. Your
opponent needed to save 3 cards to prevent your misdirection from working.
This is almost half of his hand. Plus, he wasted those slots that could have
held other cards to prevent the effect of one card. Finally, I play with a
lot of Wake with Evening Freshness, etc. and I have never had 3 in my hand at once. I shouldn't have to have 3 of any card to block 1 card. But yes, I
agree Wake, etc. are must cards.
David
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Greenwald "We can print our own money here
greenwal@bnr.ca If you let us do a piece on you
BNR inc. Atlanta, GA We can take you to pieces" Paper Lies by Marillion
In article <342j0u$sq@bmerha64.bnr.ca>, greenwal@bnr.ca (David Greenwald) writes:
|> Sorry for the lateness of response.
|>
|> In article <33l7a8$dak@tamsun.tamu.edu>, storm@tamsun.tamu.edu (Edward S Shaw) writes:
|>
|> <example on Misdirection not helping deleted>
|>
|> Once again, I think your example shows how powerful Misdirection is. Your
|> opponent needed to save 3 cards to prevent your misdirection from working.
|> This is almost half of his hand. Plus, he wasted those slots that could have
|> held other cards to prevent the effect of one card. Finally, I play with a
|> lot of Wake with Evening Freshness, etc. and I have never had 3 in my hand at once. I shouldn't have to have 3 of any card to block 1 card. But yes, I
|> agree Wake, etc. are must cards.
Misdirection or not, I think it is always wise to have one more blood than
your predator can bleed you in one turn if you had no blockers. There are too
many ways to die when you only have 2 or 3 blood left. If your predator has
5 normal bleeders then keep 6 blood in your pool.
--
Roberto Ullfig - ullfig@fnrobo.fnal.gov