A card idea to help allies

Since Allies are so easily stolen, which is the main reason it is hard to make a deck based on them, how about the following card. Loyalty - Master Common Put this card on an Ally you control. This ally cannot be affected by (D) actions which would change who controls it. No methuselah may play a master cards which would affect who controls this ally. I'd be willing to bet that with this card allies would become more popular and effective without breaking balance.

Michael Kelly wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I like this idea. If you don't mind, I'll suggest it to the other people in my homebrew playtest JOL group. We've begun testing the Insomnia cards and others there. John Baker

: > I'd be willing to bet that with this card allies would become : > more popular and effective without breaking balance. I don't really think the problem with allies is the large number of potent anti-ally cards. The real problem is that they cost pool, too much pool. Every time I look at an ally, I wonder why I didn't just buy a vampire with the same amount of pool. I've never found allies to be useful. James -- James Hamblin je...@cornell.edu I'm Wisconsin bound... anyone want some cheese?

Michael Kelly <michae...@lmco.com> wrote: >Since Allies are so easily stolen, which is the main reason >it is hard to make a deck based on them, how about the following >card. >Loyalty - Master Common >Put this card on an Ally you control. This ally cannot >be affected by (D) actions which would change who controls it. >No methuselah may play a master cards which would affect >who controls this ally. >I'd be willing to bet that with this card allies would become >more popular and effective without breaking balance. Do others find they have trouble with stolen allies??? It's rarely been a problem with my group. Far Mastery is such a specific interest card, and Setite corruption is a very narrow focus. There are few people here who play them, as its so much easier just to kill an ally outright with the same cards they use to kill vamps. (Bum's Rush, maneuver, Sewer Lid, etc...). Of course, the meta-game here is fairly combat heavy right now, but my point is that theft is rarely the issue since the cards that do it have such a limited scope. Regards, R. David Zopf guenh...@mindspring.com "This argument reeks of Kant, or whiskey, or both...."

> > Do others find they have trouble with stolen allies??? It's rarely > been a problem with my group. Far Mastery is such a specific interest > card, and Setite corruption is a very narrow focus. There are few > people here who play them, as its so much easier just to kill an ally > outright with the same cards they use to kill vamps. (Bum's Rush, > maneuver, Sewer Lid, etc...). Of course, the meta-game here is fairly > combat heavy right now, but my point is that theft is rarely the issue > since the cards that do it have such a limited scope. > > Regards, > R. David Zopf > guenh...@mindspring.com > "This argument reeks of Kant, or whiskey, or both...." Don't forget the ever popular Entrancement (prescence) I never pass up the opportunity to include it in my decks containing Presence. We have quite a few allies used in our playgroup (notably the War Ghoul, Renegade Garou, Ambrosius, and Scapelli.) Even in a combat heavy environment, its not easy to whack a Garou equipped with a flak jacket or a leather jacket. Much easier to throw him a bone and have him come to work for you:) Karl --

On Sun, 01 Jun 1997 01:30:33 -0700, Karl Innes <in...@infomatch.com> wrote: > Even in a combat heavy environment, its not easy to whack a Garou >equipped with a flak jacket or a leather jacket. Much easier to throw >him a bone and have him come to work for you:) > > Karl >-- I agree, every time somebody used the Renegade Garou in one of our games he got stolen. Sometimes 2 or 3 times.

J. Hamblin wrote: > > : Even in a combat heavy environment, its not easy to whack a Garou > : equipped with a flak jacket or a leather jacket. Much easier to throw > : him a bone and have him come to work for you:) > > Since the Garou can't use disciplined cards, it should be really easy to > avoid getting killed by the thing. There's no way it can prevent S:CE. > And if you're a combat deck, the flak/leather jackets aren't going to > help much at all. > > Even the Renegade Garou, possibly the best ally out there, isn't all that > great. > > James Well I won't argue with you on that point just a difference of opinion, but if allies are as useless as you seem to think they are, Why are they used so frequently and to such good effect in many JOL games?? The thing that I find most useful about rushing allies is that they cannot be obedienced, sure they can be S:CE but then so can any other vampire if you don't have an IG or a Dog Pack in play. both the War Ghoul, and the Renegade Garou IMHO are worth the cost in pool. The built in rush alone makes S:CE the eventual loser in any case. -- Cheers, Karl Time flys like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.

: Even in a combat heavy environment, its not easy to whack a Garou : equipped with a flak jacket or a leather jacket. Much easier to throw : him a bone and have him come to work for you:) Since the Garou can't use disciplined cards, it should be really easy to avoid getting killed by the thing. There's no way it can prevent S:CE. And if you're a combat deck, the flak/leather jackets aren't going to help much at all. Even the Renegade Garou, possibly the best ally out there, isn't all that great. James -- James Hamblin je...@cornell.edu Corwin: "So I guess the operative phrase is 'trust no one'?" Ivanova: "No. Trust Ivanova, trust yourself. Anyone else, shoot 'em." -- Babylon 5: "No Surrender, No Retreat"

Hi Mike! On Fri, 30 May 1997, Michael Kelly wrote: > Since Allies are so easily stolen, which is the main reason > it is hard to make a deck based on them, how about the following > card. > > Loyalty - Master Common > Put this card on an Ally you control. This ally cannot > be affected by (D) actions which would change who controls it. > No methuselah may play a master cards which would affect > who controls this ally. > This is unnecessary. Have you realized that the wording in Secure Haven doesn't mean you can't put it on allies? (I haven't noticed any errata that chenged this.) A shame it's unique. David Pontes 8[

On 31 May 1997, J. Hamblin wrote: > : > I'd be willing to bet that with this card allies would become > : > more popular and effective without breaking balance. > > I don't really think the problem with allies is the large number of > potent anti-ally cards. The real problem is that they cost pool, too > much pool. Every time I look at an ally, I wonder why I didn't just buy > a vampire with the same amount of pool. > Muddles is cheap. Arms Dealer is free, and not unique. I've tried to use allies a few times, and the best result was Giovanni/Malkavian dom/nec/obf. Muddles dispatched 2 vamps before dying, wich didn't matter coz it was out of the ash heap in no time. Fresh to pound others again *in the same turn*. I only have one Compel the Spirit, but Carlotta helped a bit. > I've never found allies to be useful. > I probably would have won faster with a Malk stealth&bleed, but the point was having fun. I wouldn't recommend it for an important game. I also noticed with that deck that Malk Dementia can permanently steal a Malkavian. You steal him on your master. You act with it. Assuming it didn't got burned (tho it should), you can recover the Malk Dem from your ash heap. Next turn, during your untap phase, you untap him and return him to his owner. Master phase, guess what: Malk is mine again. Untapped, and ready for action. This has a number of ways to stop happening, but there's no such thing as a flawless strategy in VtES (thank god). David Pontes 8[

Hi Karl, Karl Innes <in...@infomatch.com> wrote in article <339267...@infomatch.com>... > J. Hamblin wrote: > > Even the Renegade Garou, possibly the best ally out there, isn't all that > > great. > Well I won't argue with you on that point just a difference of opinion, > but if allies are as useless as you seem to think they are, Why are they > used so frequently and to such good effect in many JOL games?? Sure sounds like you arguing the point :-) Just for my reference, how many people typically play JOL? I've seen isolated groups of up to 8 players who say 4CL fixes weenie vote push. This is not true, of course, but there are groups of people who support this notion. Is your JOL group so large and encompassing that it precludes this type of isolation? If that is the case, do Ally decks ever win? We have a Nosferatu vote deck that shows up periodically at our games, never wins, but could be used to support Nosferatu as voters in the same way your argument seems to support Allies as an effective strategy... > The thing that I find most useful about rushing allies is that they > cannot be obedienced, sure they can be S:CE but then so can any other > vampire if you don't have an IG or a Dog Pack in play. both the War > Ghoul, and the Renegade Garou IMHO are worth the cost in pool. The built > in rush alone makes S:CE the eventual loser in any case. > Here your argument is very weak. Your action costs the Methuselah controlling your target one combat card, where as that Methuselah's action is apt to cost you four or more pool... A built in rush doesn't come close to making up for that, especially since any decent combat deck is going to get into combat at will anyway. Algustas -- Good, bad, I'm the guy with the mouse...

Michael Kelly <michae...@lmco.com> writes: >Since Allies are so easily stolen, which is the main reason >it is hard to make a deck based on them, how about the following >card. >Loyalty - Master Common >Put this card on an Ally you control. This ally cannot >be affected by (D) actions which would change who controls it. >No methuselah may play a master cards which would affect >who controls this ally. >I'd be willing to bet that with this card allies would become >more popular and effective without breaking balance. It might be easier, and more appropriate to make it a dominate or presence card. Or two competing cards with advantages to either one. At any rate, I think if it were to be a master, it probably shouldn't be common. But that's just my two cents. If it were a dom/pre card, it would have to be something like...hmm...what names are left from the RPG to steal still. Loyalty is a Dominate power. Hmm...Presence...? I don't know. It could go something like...take an action to place this card on an ally. This action is at +1 stealth. An ally with this card on it may not be affected by D actions which change the controlling player. Blah blah blah. Obviously this text isn't perfect as it is coming straight out of my muddled mind at nealry 3 in the morning. Anyway, I think it preserves more of the flavor to make it discipline-based, and I suppose it needs some provision to be removed...but who cares right now... Xian

In article <5mpdhj$8...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, "J. Hamblin" <je...@sunlab.cit.cornell.edu> writes >: > I'd be willing to bet that with this card allies would become >: > more popular and effective without breaking balance. > >I don't really think the problem with allies is the large number of >potent anti-ally cards. The real problem is that they cost pool, too >much pool. Every time I look at an ally, I wonder why I didn't just buy >a vampire with the same amount of pool. > >I've never found allies to be useful. > >James >-- >James Hamblin >je...@cornell.edu > >I'm Wisconsin bound... anyone want some cheese? How about "Political Ally". I think that getting 3 bleed for 2 pool is great. Even better, Justicar Retribution doesn't affect it (the card only specifies vampires, not minions). Bloody cheap, and can be modified with a few Cloaks at superior to get the bleed through and avoid combat. -- James Coupe "It's not easy having a good time - even smilimg makes my face ache"

In article <33931D...@lmco.com>, Michael Kelly <michae...@lmco.com> writes >Allies can get quite useful and powerful with the correct kind of >Equipment. Like a Rogue Garou with a Flamethrower and Flack Jacket. >Even without the equipment, this guy spells trouble to most >decks. But who's going to put valuable equipment on an ally if some >stealty schmuck is going to take it all away! > >Some very ingenious ally/equipment combinations have been proposedin >this >newgroup which I would love to try some time. But I never get past the >dreamy eyed stage since there is always a S&B deck with a Far Mastery >out there. Cheaper than that, just give him a Wooden Stake instead. He gets to burn any vampire with three blood on them (2 damage from his first strike (hands (that's what his innate damage is)), 2 damage from the second strike with the Stake). That's got me out of a few tough situations. I didn't bother with a Flak Jacket because I wasn't playing against a highly combative deck so could afford to wait until the next untap phase to get the life back. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <339133...@infomatch.com>, Karl Innes <in...@infomatch.com> writes > Even in a combat heavy environment, its not easy to whack a Garou >equipped with a flak jacket or a leather jacket. Did I hear somebody say: "Strike: Destroy Equipment"? Oh no, sorry, it's these strange voices in my head. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <B396887E5248AC59.654403447BBADAC8.3382329A6AD75086@library- proxy.airnews.net>, car...@airmail.com writes >On Sun, 01 Jun 1997 01:30:33 -0700, Karl Innes <in...@infomatch.com> >wrote: >> Even in a combat heavy environment, its not easy to whack a Garou >>equipped with a flak jacket or a leather jacket. Much easier to throw >>him a bone and have him come to work for you:) >> >> Karl >>-- >I agree, every time somebody used the Renegade Garou in one of our >games he got stolen. Sometimes 2 or 3 times. Can I suggest that for the next few games you don't play it? Then, hopefully, people will think you've stopped playing it and not put any steal ally cards in their deck. Then you can jsut swarm over them with hundreds of bloody Garou. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > > In article <33931D...@lmco.com>, Michael Kelly > <michae...@lmco.com> writes > >Allies can get quite useful and powerful with the correct kind of <snip> > Cheaper than that, just give him a Wooden Stake instead. He gets to > burn any vampire with three blood on them (2 damage from his first > strike (hands (that's what his innate damage is)), 2 damage from the > second strike with the Stake). That's got me out of a few tough > situations. I didn't bother with a Flak Jacket because I wasn't > playing against a highly combative deck so could afford to wait until > the next untap phase to get the life back. > You know, I don't think this works, first of all the wooden stake (or just Stake to you only in jyhad) is a melee weapon that does 1 damage. That is all and the hand damage by the werewolf doesn't say +1 damage on weapon strikes. so I think you would need a Lucky Blow or some other such non-disciplined nonsense. Then again I may be wrong. Brian Emord bem...@austin.ibm.com

L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > Brian Emord wrote: > > You know, I don't think this works, first of all the wooden stake (or > > just Stake to you only in jyhad) is a melee weapon that does 1 damage. > > It is a melee weapon that does hand damage. A Garou would do 2 damage > with the Stake (each strike). Sorry - The statement only applies to the Wooden Stake. If you use the Jyhad Stake as written, then yes, it only does 1 damage per strike. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

Brian Emord wrote: > You know, I don't think this works, first of all the wooden stake (or > just Stake to you only in jyhad) is a melee weapon that does 1 damage. It is a melee weapon that does hand damage. A Garou would do 2 damage with the Stake (each strike). -- [ quoted text not captured ]

Michael Kelly wrote: > Since Allies are so easily stolen, which is the main reason > it is hard to make a deck based on them, how about the following > card. > > Loyalty - Master Common > Put this card on an Ally you control. This ally cannot > be affected by (D) actions which would change who controls it. > No methuselah may play a master cards which would affect > who controls this ally. > > I'd be willing to bet that with this card allies would become > more popular and effective without breaking balance. It's not a bad concept, but nothing is forever. I'd probably change the text so that "Any Vampire burns 1 blood when attempting (D) actions against this minion". Or make (D) actions at - stealth. If all the cards were untouchable, jyhad would lose a lot of it's flavor. It's important to encourage people to load up with Far Mastery, etc.. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.. -- Bernie

Bernard M. Bresnahan wrote: > > Michael Kelly wrote: > > Loyalty - Master Common > > It's not a bad concept, but nothing is forever. I'd probably change > the > text so that "Any Vampire burns 1 blood when attempting (D) actions > against this minion". Or make (D) actions at - stealth. If all the > cards > were untouchable, jyhad would lose a lot of it's flavor. It's important > > to encourage people to load up with Far Mastery, etc.. A good point! Mortals are mortal, only the dead may last forever. In my playgroup, ally decks show up regulary. They mostly have a LOT of intercept and really tough allies (Tremere & Gangrel mostly). So Cards like Far Mastery are useful but often intercepted. Nearly no deck has more than one or two, so it won't crash game balance. Simple mortals (most Brujah Allies) are weaker than most Vamps, but they are mere mortals. If it comes to other supernatural creatures (Garou, Mages, Faeries, Ghosts) they naturally are more powerful and likely to survive the harsh environment of the Jyhad. That's life. -- Michael Beer, Dortmund, Germany, ICQ 1175389 -------------------------------------------- Life is founded on Chaos. So if you find your living room became disordered: Don't panic! It's natural... :)