In article <3ia4qc$2...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>,
L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>pki...@netcom.com (Purple Kitty) writes:>>8) Can you take a blood from a vampire on the same turn you put a Blood
>>Doll card on it?>You can doo your Master effects and the Master card in any order you like,
>so yes (similarily, you may bring a Tremer out of Torpor on the same turn
>you bring Chantry into play).
except for the fact that Chantry's effect takes place during untap, so a
Tremere would leave during the next untap, i.e., next turn. Blood Doll
takes effect during the master phase, so it is indeed legal to place the
Doll and immediately take a blood off it.
>>17) Can an out-of-turn master be played on your turn, negating your next
>>master phase? The small book seems to say so, since it says "OOTMs may
>>be played when it is not your turn" as opposed to "Reaction cards may
>>ONLY be played when it is not your turn".>Per the rules: not forbidden, so yes.
>Per WotC errata: no, only when it is not your turn.>Since the errata is not logical, we play by the rules on this matter.
the erratum IS logical, since several out-of-turn masters are overpowered
if played as per the (broken) rules. the Boons and Rotschreck, for example,
cause game imbalances if they are allowed to be played on that Methuselah's
turn.
hope this helps,
heckler
--
"It's always seemed to me, to judge from the salient technical
characteristics, that MIDI rivals ISDN, Windows NT, and every
Camaro since 1981 as a monumental waste of engineering effort."
-xfr...@indy.net (jeffrey carroll)
-edit
> >18) What happens if the Rack's controller is burned? Does the methuselah
> >get to pick a new vampire, is the rack burned, or does it just float
> >around until someone steals it?
>
> Since it provides no means for renaming the target, it must be stolen
> by another Meth's minion to be of any use. (so: B).
>
> >AtDhVaAnNkCsE for answering our questions!
>
Once a Meth. is ousted, his cards are removed from the game (burned as
well) unless already under control by another player. i.e. You took your
opponant's hunting grounds with Disputed Ter. and later they are ousted.
The locations they had control over are out of the game with them, but
you still have control over their hunting grounds.
Basically, their cards go away unless they are "roving" cards like
stolen locations or Anarch troublemaker, etc.
Remy
leb...@u.washington.edu | It's not my fault!
Gambit at the U.W. | Laugh it up fuzzball!
| - Han Solo
"I don't want the world, I just want your half."
"Life is like a riddle, and I'm really stumped."
> > 8) Can you take a blood from a vampire on the same turn you put a Blood
> > Doll card on it?> NO, playing the Blood Doll _ends_ your master phase and
> therefor you couldn't gain blood from it till next Master...
No, it does not. You play the Blood Doll *during* your master phase.
You may continue with anything else allowed during your master phase
(including the use of the Blood Doll).
papillo the beleaguered
In article <3ia4qc$2...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) says:
>>>8) Can you take a blood from a vampire on the same turn you put a Blood
>>Doll card on it?>>You can doo your Master effects and the Master card in any order you like,>so yes (similarily, you may bring a Tremer out of Torpor on the same turn
>you bring Chantry into play).
>
Don't you take blood off of a Blood Doll during your 'untap' phase.
>>9) Can you give a vampire duplicate (non-unique) retainers? E.g., can I
>>load up a Nosferatu with Raven Spys until he has +8 intercept?>
>Yes, judging by the fact that you can have 6 Flak Jackets, and the rules
>don't stipulate otherwise for retainers.
Hasn't WoTC rules that you can only stop one point of damage per round
with Flak Jackets. If that is the case multiple ones are kind of useless.
L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>>> 8) Can you take a blood from a vampire on the same turn you put a Blood
>>> Doll card on it?>> NO, playing the Blood Doll _ends_ your master phase and
>>therefor you couldn't gain blood from it till next Master...>The are no cards that end you Master Phase. (out-of-turns merely supplant
>the phase)
That is correct. Or at least, I can't think of any that do, and they
would very explcitly say so (and Blood Doll definitely doesn't say so).
>>may be played _when it is NOT_ your turn" therefore you
>>could not play a OOTM on your turn ..>No. This was a design team addendum. The rules say that you *can* play
>MooT when it is not your turn, but likewise do not restrict you from
>playing one when it is your turn:
>[7.2.1]: "Out-of-Turn cards you play whenever appropriate in lieu of your
>master phase for the next round of play"
>[13(.1)]: "The are a number of things you *may* do when it is not your turn:
>1)Playing Out-of-Turn cards."
The corrected rules says that you cannot play Out of Turn master cards
during your turn.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote:
> The corrected rules says that you cannot play Out of Turn master cards
> during your turn.
Peace Thomas,
YEAH!!!! Prevent distortion! It wouldn't be an "Out of Turn" Master
card if you could play it "in" your turn!
Nil carborundum illigitimi,
James R. McClure Jr.
The OS/2 Apostle
<insert disclaimer here>
Geir Wich Pettersen <geir...@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> Actually it's quite possible to interpret Out of Turn as being used
> outside your Master Phase.
Peace Geir,
Given that your TURN starts when you begin your Untap Phase and ends
when your Discard Phase is over, I don't see how someone could interpret
Out of TURN Master to mean "outside my Master PHASE." Wouldn't it be an
Out of PHASE Master then?
[ quoted text not captured ]
> > The corrected rules says that you cannot play Out of Turn master cards
> > during your turn.> YEAH!!!! Prevent distortion! It wouldn't be an "Out of Turn" Master> card if you could play it "in" your turn!
There are those of us who believe the "Out of Turn" designation was meant
to indicate a card that can be played outside the normal place in a turn
that a Master Card can be played. Perhaps a better name would have been
"Out of phase", for a card that can be played outside the Master Phase.
Unfortunately, both phraseologies have their problems.
Prevent distortion whenever possible, but preserve the intended meaning
at all costs...
papillo the precise
In article <3j4l65$b...@hermes.louisville.edu>, "James R. McClure Jr." <jrmc...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu> writes:
[ quoted text not captured ]
:>
Does that then mean that you can't play Rotshreck during your turn? Or Frenzy?
What's the ruling on Rotshreck anyway? My group plays it offensively (makes
more sense).
"James R. McClure Jr." <jrmc...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu> writes:
>sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote:>> Because it comes out of turn, out of line, out of order, etc.
>> Obviously, reaction cards should be allowed on your own turn in response
>> to Madness Network actions, but this is not the case. The same logic
>> binds the use-anytime-appropriate (original rules' text) Master Card to
>> use-anytime-appropriate-except-when-you-have-more-control Master Card.>Peace Scott,
>Are you saying that you agree with me that OoT Masters cannot be played at
>any time during your turn? With respect to Madness Network (forgive me if
>I misinterpret the card, I've only had one a week), I thought the out-of-
>sequence Malkavian actions had to occur _after_ a Methusela (sp) was done
>with their turn, in which case the just-finished-his/her-turn Meth _could_
>react to those Malk actions. I disagree that the rules originally stated
>that OoTs could be used at any time, but that's a rules interpretation
>opinion that you and I differ on.
No. The out-of-sequence Malkavian acts after the Meth whose turn it is
finishes all of her Minion Actions, and before she starts her transfer phase.
It is still her turn.
She cannot play reaction cards (to increase intercept if one of those Malks
attempt to bleed her, surprise).
And she cannot play MooT's
(This from TOM and the DT).
This is blatantly broken. Why should you have less options when it is your
turn?
"James R. McClure Jr." <jrmc...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu> writes:
>Geir Wich Pettersen <geir...@ifi.uio.no> wrote:>> Actually it's quite possible to interpret Out of Turn as being used
>> outside your Master Phase.>Peace Geir,>Given that your TURN starts when you begin your Untap Phase and ends
>when your Discard Phase is over, I don't see how someone could interpret
>Out of TURN Master to mean "outside my Master PHASE." Wouldn't it be an
>Out of PHASE Master then?
Because it comes out of turn, out of line, out of order, etc.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <3jfik2$1...@hermes.louisville.edu>, "James R. McClure Jr."
<jrmc...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu> wrote:
> Geir Wich Pettersen <geir...@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> > Actually it's quite possible to interpret Out of Turn as being used
> > outside your Master Phase.
>
> Peace Geir,
>
> Given that your TURN starts when you begin your Untap Phase and ends
> when your Discard Phase is over, I don't see how someone could interpret
> Out of TURN Master to mean "outside my Master PHASE." Wouldn't it be an
> Out of PHASE Master then?
perhaps, but i've seen this happen a couple of times, so i think it's
understandable, but not correct by any means.
Harpua
sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote:
>> "James R. McClure Jr." <jrmc...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu> writes:
>
> >Geir Wich Pettersen <geir...@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
> >> Actually it's quite possible to interpret Out of Turn as being used
> >> outside your Master Phase.
>
> >Peace Geir,
>
> >Given that your TURN starts when you begin your Untap Phase and ends
> >when your Discard Phase is over, I don't see how someone could interpret
> >Out of TURN Master to mean "outside my Master PHASE." Wouldn't it be an
> >Out of PHASE Master then?
Peace Scott,
> Because it comes out of turn, out of line, out of order, etc.
> Obviously, reaction cards should be allowed on your own turn in response
> to Madness Network actions, but this is not the case. The same logic
> binds the use-anytime-appropriate (original rules' text) Master Card to
> use-anytime-appropriate-except-when-you-have-more-control Master Card.
Are you saying that you agree with me that OoT Masters cannot be played at
any time during your turn? With respect to Madness Network (forgive me if
I misinterpret the card, I've only had one a week), I thought the out-of-
sequence Malkavian actions had to occur _after_ a Methusela (sp) was done
with their turn, in which case the just-finished-his/her-turn Meth _could_
react to those Malk actions. I disagree that the rules originally stated
that OoTs could be used at any time, but that's a rules interpretation
opinion that you and I differ on.
[ quoted text not captured ]
740926...@v8802.ntu.ac.sg wrote:
> Does that then mean that you can't play Rotshreck during your turn? Or Frenzy?
> What's the ruling on Rotshreck anyway? My group plays it offensively (makes
> more sense).
Peace be with you,
Yes. Yes. That depends on the phase of the moon. It (Roetschreck's
ruling) has changed several times. Perhaps Tom can post the final answer.
Nil carborundum illigitimi,
James R. McClure Jr.
The OS/2 Apostle
<insert disclaimer here>
> Does that then mean that you can't play Rotshreck during your turn? Or Frenzy?
> What's the ruling on Rotshreck anyway? My group plays it offensively (makes
> more sense).
You may not play an out of turn master during your turn (the whole
turn-not just phases). you could play either if you block. btw.. the
ruling on rotshreck is that is hoses the vamp that uses agg. damage, not
the victim like the card seems to say.
harpua
The latest ruling, which has been around for a few months, is that
Rotschreck hoses the vampire attempting to deal the aggravated damage.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> > Given that your TURN starts when you begin your Untap Phase and ends
> > when your Discard Phase is over, I don't see how someone could interpret
> > Out of TURN Master to mean "outside my Master PHASE." Wouldn't it be an
> > Out of PHASE Master then?
The rules have multiple instances of where unclear (and sometimes
downright incorrect) terminology is used. I believe this to be one
of them. (I believe another one is the ruling that reaction cards can
only be played when it is not your "turn"; it seems clear that the
intention is that they can only be played when it is not your *action*.)
It doesn't make sense that the Methuselah behind an acting vampire entering
combat would have less options available to him to skew the combat (i.e.
less opportunity to play out-of-"turn" masters) than the blocking vampire's
Methuselah would have.
papillo the repetitive
> > > Given that your TURN starts when you begin your Untap Phase and ends
> > > when your Discard Phase is over, I don't see how someone could interpret
> > > Out of TURN Master to mean "outside my Master PHASE." Wouldn't it be an
> > > Out of PHASE Master then?> The rules have multiple instances of where unclear (and sometimes
> downright incorrect) terminology is used. I believe this to be one
> of them. (I believe another one is the ruling that reaction cards can
> only be played when it is not your "turn"; it seems clear that the
> intention is that they can only be played when it is not your *action*.)
BTW - another important instance that the Design Team has ruled on
is the phrasing used in 18.1, Winning the game: "If a predator is
ousted the same turn that his or her prey is, the predator gets the
ante and victory point, but does not get the six blood points."
The Design Team (if memory is correct) has upheld that the predator gets
the six blood as soon as the *action* ousting his or her prey is
complete.
It seems nonsensical that the DT could recognize some errors due to
poor choices of terms, but ignore others that seem more glaring.
papillo the pristine
In article <3jfqns$f...@redwood.cs.scarolina.edu>,
...
>Obviously, reaction cards should be allowed on your own turn in response
> to Madness Network actions, but this is not the case. The same logic
...
I thought Madness Network lets Malkavians do actions after a players
turn (therefore BEFORE the next players turn). Hence the action takes
place inbetween players turns and reaction cards can be played.
Once you start your turn you don't need to play reaction cards,
because you're the only one acting.
In article <3jqjr6$p...@tadpole.fc.hp.com>,
Bob Ellison <pap...@fc.hp.com> wrote:
>The Design Team (if memory is correct) has upheld that the predator gets
>the six blood as soon as the *action* ousting his or her prey is
>complete.
I haven't seen that in a DTR. Could you please tell me which
one it's in? The only person who has said that is Tom.
| If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--*
| PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu
| ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------
"Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK
Joseph Cochran (js...@discus.ise.vt.edu) wrote:
: Bob Ellison <pap...@fc.hp.com> wrote:
: >The Design Team (if memory is correct) has upheld that the predator gets
: >the six blood as soon as the *action* ousting his or her prey is
: >complete.: I haven't seen that in a DTR. Could you please tell me which
: one it's in? The only person who has said that is Tom.
AFAIK, Joe is correct; the DT has never ratified this correction by Tom,
and all we have is Tom's word (and good common sense, IMHO) to go on here.
Shane Travis | A fanatic is someone who redoubles his effort
sht...@duke.usask.ca | when he has forgotten his aim.
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan | -- George Santayana
In article <3jople$e...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
> The latest ruling, which has been around for a few months, is that
> Rotschreck hoses the vampire attempting to deal the aggravated damage.
>
Why have there been rulings on this card at all? The card text is explicit
with respect to hosing the vamp about to recieve the agg. dammage, as the
card talks about a minion dealing the dammage (i.e. possibly an ally, who
could not go into torpor) to a vampire, and says the vampire goes to torpor
with the Rotschreck card on it.
Is there any sensible reasoning on the above ruling, which completely changes
what the card does?
Ben Sanders
James McClure writes:
With respect to Madness Network (forgive me if I misinterpret the
card, I've only had one a week), I thought the out-of- sequence
Malkavian actions had to occur _after_ a Methusela (sp) was done with
their turn, in which case the just-finished-his/her-turn Meth _could_
react to those Malk actions. I disagree that the rules originally
stated that OoTs could be used at any time, but that's a rules
interpretation opinion that you and I differ on.
For what it's worth, our house rule is that the actions performed under
the Madness Network occur at the end of the current Methuselah's minion
phase (i.e. before the current Methuselah's influence phase and before
any pool for ousting has been rewarded) and that it is considered to be
the acting Malkavian's turn for all purposes regarding actions,
modifiers and reactions, including OoT master cards. Needless to say,
we have no ruling whatsoever to base this on except that it generates
interesting play.
--
-- Jon Ferro Einsprachigkeit ist heilbar.
Jon Ferro (fe...@chem.cmu.edu) wrote:
: For what it's worth, our house rule is that the actions performed under: the Madness Network occur at the end of the current Methuselah's minion
: phase (i.e. before the current Methuselah's influence phase and before: any pool for ousting has been rewarded)...
[bobbitt]
FYI - The 6 blood awarded for ousting ones prey is awarded at the end of
the _action_, not the end of the _turn_. This was recently clarified in
this forum by Tom Wylie.
[ quoted text not captured ]