Moncada and Eternal Vigilance

This happened during our first game with SW: A player had out Moncada, the Lasombra Cardinal who, amongst other special abilities, has the following drawback: "Moncada cannot block." Our Esteemed Cardinal and Plenipotentiary then tried to play an Eternal Vigilance: Card Text Eternal Vigilance Action, costs 1 blood Requires a ready Archbishop, Priscus or Cardinal. +1 stealth. Put this card on the acting vampire. During an action, the Sabbat vampire with this card can pay a blood to untap and attempt to block. Burn this card if this Sabbat vampire goes to torpor. The question is, does the explicit text on EV ("can pay a blood to untap and attempt to block") override the inability of Moncada to block? We ruled during the game that the answer is no, but I wanted to be sure. The answer would be applicable to all other effects that could possibly allow Moncada to block, I guess. Another interesting question concerns the wording on EV: It talks about "this Sabbat vampire" twice. This seems to imply that if the vampire with the card loses membership in the Sabbat, he cannot use its effects until he becomes a Sabbat member again. Is that right? And, more interesting: If the vampire is not Sabbat by the time he goes to torpor, is EV burned? :-) -- Hardy Range "Gib mir wieder etwas Schönes, zieh mich aus dem Meer." The Sisters of Mercy, Marian hardy...@gmx.de

Please give Moncada's stats and such.... Tim (who still has to wait a full week for his SW) In article <8topa5$pu3$1...@news.cityweb.de>, [ quoted text not captured ] -- PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8topa5$pu3$1...@news.cityweb.de>, "Hardy Range" <hardy...@gmx.de> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I think that he still can't block, per card text. Analogous to Assamites and Amaranth. > Another interesting question concerns the wording on EV: > It talks about "this Sabbat vampire" twice. This seems to imply that if the > vampire with the card loses membership in the Sabbat, he cannot use its > effects until he becomes a Sabbat member again. Is that right? > And, more interesting: If the vampire is not Sabbat by the time he goes to > torpor, is EV burned? :-) Hmmmm. I'd say that the getting the thing is Sabbat and Title required, after that it becomes an ability inherent to the vampire. I think that the card text refers to Sabbat Vampires because it is sabbat required and printed in sabbat War. Last Q is interesting. Don't know what the ruling on this will be. Tim > > -- > > Hardy Range > > "Gib mir wieder etwas Schönes, > zieh mich aus dem Meer." > The Sisters of Mercy, Marian > > hardy...@gmx.de > > -- [ quoted text not captured ]

Hardy Range wrote: > The question is, does the explicit text on EV ("can pay a blood to untap and > attempt to block") override the inability of Moncada to block? > We ruled during the game that the answer is no, but I wanted to be sure. The > answer would be applicable to all other effects that could possibly allow > Moncada to block, I guess. Correct. He cannot block. If Navar Clan Impersonates a Lasombra and successfully Crusades to become the Archbishop of Houston and performs Eternal Vigilance, he still couldn't block an older vampire. > Another interesting question concerns the wording on EV: > It talks about "this Sabbat vampire" twice. This seems to imply that if the > vampire with the card loses membership in the Sabbat, he cannot use its > effects until he becomes a Sabbat member again. Is that right? Right. > And, more interesting: If the vampire is not Sabbat by the time he goes to > torpor, is EV burned? :-) No. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In article <3A000F21...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Hardy Range wrote: > > The question is, does the explicit text on EV ("can pay a blood to untap and > > attempt to block") override the inability of Moncada to block? > > We ruled during the game that the answer is no, but I wanted to be sure. The > > answer would be applicable to all other effects that could possibly allow > > Moncada to block, I guess. > > Correct. He cannot block. If Navar Clan Impersonates a Lasombra and successfully > Crusades to become the Archbishop of Houston and performs Eternal Vigilance, > he still couldn't block an older vampire. This brings up a couple of questions in my mind. Can Moncada gain Eternal Vigilance? I don't see any reason why he couldn't. Additionally, If Moncada can get EV, can he use it to Untap despite the fact that he is barred from blocking? Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Ramsteiner wrote: > This brings up a couple of questions in my mind. Can Moncada gain > Eternal Vigilance? Yes. > I don't see any reason why he couldn't. Exactly. > Additionally, If Moncada can get EV, can he use it to Untap despite the > fact that he is barred from blocking? As I recall, it's an "untap and block" effect. Not untap and may block. So no. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him. I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin with him and the way he makes me feel?"

Ramsteiner wrote: > This brings up a couple of questions in my mind. Can Moncada gain > Eternal Vigilance? I don't see any reason why he couldn't. Yes. He could equip with a Sport Bike, too. > Additionally, If Moncada can get EV, can he use it to Untap despite the > fact that he is barred from blocking? No. Like 2nd Tradition, the EV effect cannot be used by a minion that cannot block the current action. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Tim Eijpe" <t_e...@my-deja.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:8toqhq$i35$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > Please give Moncada's stats and such.... > > Tim (who still has to wait a full week for his SW) > Sorry, Tim - I did not own the card myself until about two hours ago, so I hadn't the text here. (BTW, I do agree with people who are upset that there is talk in this newsgroup about new cards but who are _not_ told what the card does. But as you may have guessed, I am on the other hand not a very great fan of posting card text from memory and starting wild rumors...) So here we go: Ambrosio Luis Moncada, Plenipotentiary Lasombra, cap 10, aus for DOM OBT POT PRE <insert picture of fat, ugly, pale-skinned, bald-headed vampire here> Sabbat Cardinal Moncada cannot block. Actions directed at Moncada cost an additional pool. If Moncada is ready during your discard phase, he can untap another ready Lasombra. I think that the card reflects the (late) Sabbat Cardinal from the Clan Novel series quite well: Moncada never leaves his haven in Madrid (?), so he cannot block, but is very hard to hit (the Assamite Fatimah was faced with exactly this problem in one of the novels) - but he has a great lot of political clout both within his own clan and the Sabbat as a whole. A minor discrepancy between the WoD as shown in the novels and the reality :-) of our V:tES is that Moncada is Lucita's Sire, but in the card game the capacities differ by 2. [ quoted text not captured ]

>A minor discrepancy between the WoD as shown in the novels and the reality >:-) of our V:tES is that Moncada is Lucita's Sire, but in the card game the >capacities differ by 2. Well one of the ongoing arguments on the White Wolf forum is on a discrepancy overall about Lucita's generation. As part of Justin Achilli's plan to "tone down" NPC's, the made Lucita's gen one worse than before. Halcyan 2

[ quoted text not captured ] And anyway, there's nothing stopping Moncada lowering his generation anyway. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 1 Nov 2000, Halcyan 2 wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Still, I don't think it is necessarily a discrepancy. I do not think that capacity reflects generation only. It can also indicate other aspects of power and influence, like the posession of a significant title. Ordinarily, the equivalencies should be as follows: Generation Capacity 14 or 15 1 13 2 12 3 11 4 10 5 9 6 8 7 7 8 6 9 This implies that 10 capacity is equivalent to 5th generation, and 11 capacity to 4th. But that is a bit of a problem, because 5th and 4th generations are Methuselahs, and that's who *we* are supposed to be. Also, by adding skill cards to vampires, one can easily create vampires of "First Generation" or lower. I think it is more reasonable to conclude that no vampires in play are lower than 6th generation, and capacities higher than 9 represtent factors other than age (such as resources derived from position). There is plenty of evidence for this. For instance, certain Praxis Siezures give the vampire who earns it an extra point of capacity, which he later loses when he loses the title. Presumably the same might apply to vampires who have titles naturally. Similarly, when a Justicar loses his title from "Wrath of the Inner Circle", he loses a point of capacity, implying, perhaps, that his Justicar status was part of the reason he had a capacity that high in the first place. My take on it therefore, would be that Moncada is a 6th generation vampire who is gains a point of capacity because of his political position. Lucita, his childe, is 7th generation, but has no political position. -- John Whelan

"John Whelan" <jbwh...@amanda.dorsai.org> wrote in message news:Pine.GSO.4.21.001102...@amanda.dorsai.org... [snip] > I think it is more reasonable to conclude that no vampires in play are > lower than 6th generation, and capacities higher than 9 represtent factors > other than age (such as resources derived from position). There is plenty Well, I'd be willing to go as low as 5th generation, but essentially, I think you're right. And how would one explain The Embrace/Creation Rites/3rd Tradition, if this were not true? Emerson Bridges, the (15-8) 7th generation Prince, creates a 13th generation 3rd Tradition baby. Hmm. Probably not. :) Xian -- I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart. --_Shellshock_, New Order www.waste.org/~xian

>I think it is more reasonable to conclude that no vampires in play are >lower than 6th generation, and capacities higher than 9 represtent factors >other than age (such as resources derived from position). There is plenty >of evidence for this. For instance, certain Praxis Siezures give the >vampire who earns it an extra point of capacity, which he later loses when >he loses the title. Presumably the same might apply to vampires who have >titles naturally. Similarly, when a Justicar loses his title from "Wrath >of the Inner Circle", he loses a point of capacity, implying, perhaps, >that his Justicar status was part of the reason he had a capacity that >high in the first place. > I have to admit that you provide an EXCELLENT argument for this and I'm sure that it is indeed for many cases (especially those "inferior" Sabbat vamps). Interestingly enough, there ARE a few vamps who seem to fit the original model. I've always found it amusing that you could influence Etrius, who is himself a 4th generation Methusaleh. And since he is 11 capacity... (maybe there's an alternative explanation. You're just enlisting his help or enlisting a simulacrum of him or something). Similarly, I think Ayelea is supposed to be one of Goratrix's own children so she is appropriately a 10 cap. I should review Children of the Night again but I *think* Queen Anne's gen also reflects this. I think Kemintiri is also right. But then again, this original theory (generation translates directly to capacity) doesn't always work. I *think* Dylan (!Ventrue) should be a higher cap. He's only a 6 cap (9th gen) and still manages to make the Most Wanted List? And I think Al-Ashrad should be a gen higher? I'm no expert on Assamites but I thought Al-Ashrad was sired by Ur-Shulgi who was sired by Haqim himself. So...? But overall I think you have a great theory. Halcyan 2 P.S. Now what's the rational for Violet Tremain's ability? Just watch as she demotes a 6th generation vampire to a capacity of 1!