Range in combat if it can be set by multiple cards.

What determines the range if it can be set by multiple cards? Ie. If Michael diCarlo succesfully Ambush Cailean, which one can determine range for first round of combat? Or is it normal "Acting minion first" like in normal maneuver?

Setting range is 'played' in the "before range is determined" step. So the usual order of play (acting minion first) is used. But it might be worth noting that (as I understand it) as with maneuvers you can opt to not use it initially. So if Michael's player believes that after setting the range it would be set back to close, be can opt not to use it. If the opposing player then opts to set the range to close he gets an opportunity to set it to long. If both players decline to use their set range ability, then it proceeds to the maneuver step as usual. So in this way you effectively see the two abilities cancelling each other (provided neither is foolish enough to use it)

RocketEddy wrote: > Setting range is 'played' in the "before range is determined" step. So > the usual order of play (acting minion first) is used. This is correct, but the explanation below is not. > But it might be worth noting that (as I understand it) as with > maneuvers you can opt to not use it initially. So if Michael's player > believes that after setting the range it would be set back to close, be > can opt not to use it. If the opposing player then opts to set the > range to close he gets an opportunity to set it to long. If both > players decline to use their set range ability, then it proceeds to the > maneuver step as usual. So in this way you effectively see the two > abilities cancelling each other (provided neither is foolish enough to > use it) If one player uses an effect that sets range for the combat round, the other player does not get any opportunity to re-set the range at all. Greetings, Hardy Range Prince of Bochum, Germany

> Setting range is 'played' in the "before range is determined" step. So > the usual order of play (acting minion first) is used. This is basically the right answer. > But it might be worth noting that (as I understand it) as with > maneuvers you can opt to not use it initially. So if Michael's player > believes that after setting the range it would be set back to close, be > can opt not to use it. If the opposing player then opts to set the > range to close he gets an opportunity to set it to long. If both > players decline to use their set range ability, then it proceeds to the > maneuver step as usual. So in this way you effectively see the two > abilities cancelling each other (provided neither is foolish enough to > use it) Nice reasoning, but with one fault: If an effect "sets" the range of a round (and therefore skips the maneuver phase), no other effect can be used to reset the range. [RTR 19970630] (citred from the rulings on the White Wolf web page) dvorax.

"RocketEddy" <eddy...@aol.com> wrote in message news:1146211676....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com... > Setting range is 'played' in the "before range is determined" step. So > the usual order of play (acting minion first) is used. Correct. > But it might be worth noting that (as I understand it) as with > maneuvers you can opt to not use it initially. I'm not sure how you were told this works but once a player declines to set range, no, he cannot opt to use it at a later point. And once range has been set, no other set range effects may be used; that's it, done - range has been set. Move on to pre-strike phase. Fred

On a related note to this post. I was in a proper game recently and a player used the same manuver card twice in the manuver phase. The ruling was that this was fine as the same card can be used multiple times in a combat situation, unlike the rest of the time. This was new to me (probably correct nonetheless) and I was wondering if the rule had always been like that or if it had been changed and if so when. Also does it apply to other effects specifically damage prevention?

[ quoted text not captured ] You can always use the same cards as often as you like with the exceptions: - action modifier in an action - reaction in an action - actions by card per turn and minion (No repeat rule) - bleed per turn and minion - vote per turn and minion - all cards that state, not usable more than once (per X) - all cards that are per rule only used once per X. So only one action card per action, only one strike card per strike phase etc. Especially combat cards can be played more than once (but only one maneuver to go to long, when you are long you can play the same maneuver if the other player plays a maneuver to go to short range. The same with press. And only one strike per strike phase.) You can play as many traps as you like. You can maneuver or press against the opponent as long as you have them. You can prevent as many damage with Skin of rock as you have damage. Frank

jibbajibba wrote: > On a related note to this post. I was in a proper game recently and a > player used the same manuver card twice in the manuver phase. The > ruling was that this was fine as the same card can be used multiple > times in a combat situation, unlike the rest of the time. In principle, this is OK - as Frank pointed out, all cards can be played as often as you like, if there is no rule that expressly forbids that. Please note that a player cannot use a maneuver to cancel his own maneuver - your example is not clear if that was the case in your game. Greetings, Hardy Range

Am I the only one who's a little amused that the guy giving explanations of the maneuver phase is named "Hardy Range"? Sorry :) [ quoted text not captured ]

Fred Scott wrote: > "RocketEddy" <eddy...@aol.com> wrote in message > news:1146211676....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com... > > Setting range is 'played' in the "before range is determined" step. So > > the usual order of play (acting minion first) is used. > > Correct. > > > But it might be worth noting that (as I understand it) as with > > maneuvers you can opt to not use it initially. > > I'm not sure how you were told this works but once a player declines > to set range, no, he cannot opt to use it at a later point. He can. For instance, if he "passes" and then his opponent plays Drawing Out the Beast, he may then choose to set the range to long. > And once > range has been set, no other set range effects may be used; that's it, > done - range has been set. Move on to pre-strike phase. ... after allowing any other pre-range effects to be played, correct.

Jozxyqk wrote: > Am I the only one who's a little amused that the guy giving explanations > of the maneuver phase is named "Hardy Range"? > > Sorry :) :-) Didn't note this myself, since I am German and of course did not immediately think about the literal English meaning of this name... ...although I know there even is a mountain range (somewhere in the Rocky Mountains, I believe) named after me... :-) So, I'll go to long again... Gerhard "Hardy" Range Prince of Bochum, Germany

uh how about a blissful agonied new combat? who gets to set range first, the chosen new minion or the blocking minion?

<x5m...@gmx.de> wrote in message news:1146219204.8...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... > jibbajibba wrote: >> On a related note to this post. I was in a proper game recently and a >> player used the same manuver card twice in the manuver phase. The >> ruling was that this was fine as the same card can be used multiple >> times in a combat situation, unlike the rest of the time. >> This was new to me (probably correct nonetheless) and I was wondering >> if the rule had always been like that or if it had been changed and if >> so when. Also does it apply to other effects specifically damage >> prevention? > > You can always use the same cards as often as you like with the > exceptions: > - action modifier in an action > - reaction in an action > - actions by card per turn and minion (No repeat rule) > - bleed per turn and minion > - vote per turn and minion > - all cards that state, not usable more than once (per X) Out-of-turn master cards per methuselah per turn. > - all cards that are per rule only used once per X. So only one action > card per action, only one strike card per strike phase etc. Fred

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:1146224676.3...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... > Fred Scott wrote: >> "RocketEddy" <eddy...@aol.com> wrote in message >> news:1146211676....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com... >> > Setting range is 'played' in the "before range is determined" step. So >> > the usual order of play (acting minion first) is used. >> >> Correct. >> >> > But it might be worth noting that (as I understand it) as with >> > maneuvers you can opt to not use it initially. >> >> I'm not sure how you were told this works but once a player declines >> to set range, no, he cannot opt to use it at a later point. > > He can. > > For instance, if he "passes" and then his opponent plays Drawing > Out the Beast, he may then choose to set the range to long. Huh? I thought the choice on using "Set Range" effects was made at the beginning of the maneuver phase. Is it an optional effect that's used (and thus declared) before the maneuver phase like all the other cards/effects that are declared before maneuvers? >> And once >> range has been set, no other set range effects may be used; that's it, >> done - range has been set. Move on to pre-strike phase. > > ... after allowing any other pre-range effects to be played, correct. (Seems to confirm my guess but I'd like a specific confirmation that I now understand the situation correctly.) Fred

Fred Scott wrote: > <x5m...@gmx.de> wrote in message > news:1146219204.8...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... >> jibbajibba wrote: >>> On a related note to this post. I was in a proper game recently and a >>> player used the same manuver card twice in the manuver phase. The >>> ruling was that this was fine as the same card can be used multiple >>> times in a combat situation, unlike the rest of the time. >>> This was new to me (probably correct nonetheless) and I was wondering >>> if the rule had always been like that or if it had been changed and if >>> so when. Also does it apply to other effects specifically damage >>> prevention? >> >> You can always use the same cards as often as you like with the >> exceptions: >> - action modifier in an action >> - reaction in an action >> - actions by card per turn and minion (No repeat rule) >> - bleed per turn and minion >> - vote per turn and minion >> - all cards that state, not usable more than once (per X) > > Out-of-turn master cards per methuselah per turn. event cards are also once each card per game. just thought i'd add that on since we seem to be talking about all non-card text situations. -- salem http://users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/vtes/ (replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)

Fred Scott wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:1146224676.3...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com... >> Fred Scott wrote: >>> "RocketEddy" <eddy...@aol.com> wrote in message >>> news:1146211676....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com... >>> > Setting range is 'played' in the "before range is determined" step. So >>> > the usual order of play (acting minion first) is used. >>> >>> Correct. >>> >>> > But it might be worth noting that (as I understand it) as with >>> > maneuvers you can opt to not use it initially. >>> >>> I'm not sure how you were told this works but once a player declines >>> to set range, no, he cannot opt to use it at a later point. >> >> He can. >> >> For instance, if he "passes" and then his opponent plays Drawing >> Out the Beast, he may then choose to set the range to long. > > Huh? I thought the choice on using "Set Range" effects was made at > the beginning of the maneuver phase. Is it an optional effect that's > used (and thus declared) before the maneuver phase like all the other > cards/effects that are declared before maneuvers? All the cards that i can think of that set range say to use the effect 'before range is determined'. The same timing as playing Increased strength, Drawing out the beast, etc. eg: A is Cailean (acting) and B is some stinky abombwe using freak (blocking). A: Torn sign post B: Drawing out the beast A: Pass B: Devil channel hands A: Crap. Set range to long B: Oh, then, Increased strength. A: You had potence? damn. A: Nothing else before. B: strikes? A: yep. I got nothing. Hands at long. Where's the damn Earth shocks? *taps top of library* B: In your face, Cailean! You're broken. Take a Thrown sewer-lid for 5. [ quoted text not captured ]

well, it's quite simple when you fully understand it. you can use the "set range" card-effect-special-etc whenever you like DURING BEFORE RANGE PHASE, as you would do with setting your strength by playing a torn signpost, e.t.c. BUT once the range is SET by whatever means, then it cannot be reset. Quite simple if you ask me, i hope this helps...

"tzimisce_dragon" <clan_a...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1146576562.1...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] It is quite simple. I guess I was just laboring under the delusions of false memory. I had thought at one time it was the rule that set range effects were used (and thus declared) during the maneuver phase. I really should get treatment but being insane is more fun. Fred