Lutz von Hohenzollern and Ancilla Empowerment

Hello. I am calling Ancilla Empowerment with Lutz von Hohenzollern. My prey has 3 minions and 4 pool. My grandprey has 4 minions and 2 pool. What happens and why if the referendum passes? Lutz von Hohenzollern Clan: Malkavian (group 4) Capacity: 11 Disciplines: AUS DEM OBF PRE pot Camarilla Malkavian Inner Circle: While Lutz is ready, your prey burns a pool each time the referendum of a political action passes. +2 bleed. Ancilla Empowerment Type: Political Action Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each minion he or she controls. I assume both get ousted with 1 point to me and 1 point to my prey. But I am not that sure after some thread here, saying if I oust my prey with eg. KRC from 3 pool, my next prey would take 1 pool damage from Lutz.

From the rulebook: "Resolve the referendum. If there are more votes for the referendum than against, the referendum passes, and the effects of the successful referendum take place." Both Lutz and effects of referendum happen if the referendum passes. I see no window for anything else to happen between like people getting ousted and gaining pool. If there is one, please explain why.

[ quoted text not captured ] Your prey burns one pool when the referendum passes, and the terms of the referendum are applied. I believe this happens at the same time (as though Lutz's special text is an addition to the terms). Your prey and grandprey are ousted. You gain six pool and a victory point. Your prey gains a victory point, but cannot collect the six pool, as s/he is ousted.

I (as the grand-prey :) disagree per previous LUtz rulings by LSJ, where the Lutz effect is clearly applied after the referendum has resolved, which means: AE resolves, prey loses 3 and is at 1. Grand prey loses 4 is ousted. Prey gains 6 and is at 7. Now the referendum has resolved. Then Lutz's effect is applied and prey loses 1 being at 6. LSJ can you confirm? Greets, xcver P.S.: When you expect an answer from him, you should label the thread- title LSJ - <title>

On Oct 5, 8:19 am, Wookie813 <veknpont...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Your prey burns one pool when the referendum passes, and the terms of > the referendum are applied. I believe this happens at the same time > (as though Lutz's special text is an addition to the terms). Lutz's special is applied after the resolution of the referendum: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/99411d8271b78165 > Your prey > and grandprey are ousted. You gain six pool and a victory point. Your > prey gains a victory point, but cannot collect the six pool, as s/he > is ousted. And then, after resolving the Ancilla Empowerment, and assuming > 3 players in the game, the next one in line will burn an additional pool, due to Lutz.

On Oct 5, 8:49 am, Neil <drnlmul...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Your prey > > and grandprey are ousted. You gain six pool and a victory point. Your > > prey gains a victory point, but cannot collect the six pool, as s/he > > is ousted. > > And then, after resolving the Ancilla Empowerment, and assuming > 3 > players in the game, the next one in line will burn an additional > pool, due to Lutz. Whoops - I misread the original setup. 4 pool and 3 minions is not enough for the Ancilla to oust the prey, so just the grand prey would be ousted, and the prey gains 6 pool and then loses 1.

Results so far 2-2, LSJ? And please explain why there is a window to get pool from oust, if there is one, not just yes or no. :)

On Oct 5, 3:31 pm, Are13 <are.vask...@gmail.com> wrote: > Results so far 2-2, LSJ? And please explain why there is a window to > get pool from oust, if there is one, not just yes or no. :) Changed the subject. Maybe this will help. -YY

[ quoted text not captured ] If you take a look at this http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/ad26a254f31ba6f6/d710ad89c44e865c?lnk=gst&q=lutz+author%3ALSJ#d710ad89c44e865c and this http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/91af7cf0f284a505/250c5ffbc6c5abd3?lnk=gst&q=lutz+author%3ALSJ#250c5ffbc6c5abd3 you'll see, that both times the ruling is, that the pool damage from Lutz is applied after the factual vote (in one example the controller of lutz is even ousted, before the damage to his old prey and then prey of his predator gets the pool damage, however there's no clue as to when the gain 6 pool is applied). So we are a bit stranded here :) Waiting for sunrise in the US Greets, xcver

On Oct 5, 4:12 am, xcver <bernd.schw...@firstdata.de> wrote: > On Oct 5, 9:36 am, YY <the1andonl...@yahoo.com.sg> wrote: > > > On Oct 5, 3:31 pm, Are13 <are.vask...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Results so far 2-2, LSJ? And please explain why there is a window to > > > get pool from oust, if there is one, not just yes or no. :) > > > Changed the subject. Maybe this will help. > > > -YY > > If you take a look at this > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_t... > > and this > > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_t... > > you'll see, that both times the ruling is, that the pool damage from > Lutz is applied after the factual vote (in one example the controller > of lutz is even ousted, before the damage to his old prey and then > prey of his predator gets the pool damage, however there's no clue as > to when the gain 6 pool is applied). So we are a bit stranded here :) The rulebook says when the 6 pool is applied: when the prey is ousted (assuming the would-be pool-gainer is not also ousted). A (me): Lutz and more pool than minions. B (prey): 4 pool, 3 minions C (grandprey): 2 pool, 4 minions Ancillae Empowerment: A loses some, but is not ousted B loses 3, has 1 C loses 4, has 0 (-2) => C is ousted (before Lutz, per links given above); B gains 6, has 7 B loses 1 for Lutz's special, has 6. > Waiting for sunrise in the US Correct. (Much more effect than the presence/absence of "LSJ" in the subject line).

Thx for the answer. It is good to have a Judge. :)