JYHAD: Voting question.

1) Do all vampires in play get a vote? 2) If so; where does it say that? (damn little book) :) 3) If so; do tapped vampires get a vote? (see #2) 4) Is the card: Disputed Territory missing an icon? It looks, acts and plays like a political action.

In article <3370l4$pj7@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU>, kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Donnie Breeding) writes: >1. Do all vampires get a vote? Only Primogens, Justicars and Princes that are in the player's ready area whether tapped or untapped get to vote. One vote for a Primogen, two for a Prince and three for a Justicar. >2. If so, where does it say that? Section 17.1 of the rulebook. >3. Do tapped vampires get a vote? (See #2) Primogens, Princes, or Justicars get to vote whether they are tapped or untapped as long as they are in the Methuselah's "Ready Area". >4. Is the card: Disputed Territory missing an icon? It looks, acts and plays like a political action. It's a Political Action card. Another one of the many errors discovered so far.

In article <3377sh$gmb@search01.news.aol.com>, Bloodgod <bloodgod@aol.com> wrote: 1. Do all vampires get a vote? >Only Primogens, Justicars and Princes that are in the player's ready area >whether tapped or untapped get to vote. One vote for a Primogen, two for >a Prince and three for a Justicar. So players don't get a vote? Aren't they Methuselahs and aren't Methuselahs vampires? Reading section 17.1 of the rules votes come from the following sources: 1) political action card starting vote is worth one vote 2) other political action cards can be used as votes instead of invoking their normal action 3) minion vampires (1 for primogen, 2 for prince, 3 for justicar) 4) Edge can be made into one vote So in our learn-the-rules game we had the first vote go real fast as only the person playing the political action card had vote, the one given by the card. We decided that was silly, and let Methuselahs vote after that. Having the second vote be a bloodhunt vote got us even more confused. I'm looking forward to the real rules being published one of these days. I knew I was in trouble when the sample card in the little booklet didn't match the actual card that I had. Flavor text for the rule booklet: No, your other left

In article <dakuderCuw2Ht.Att@netcom.com>, dakuder@netcom.com (D.A. Kuder) writes: So players don't get a vote? Aren't they Methuselahs and aren't Methuselahs vampires? Reading section 17.1 of the rules votes come from the following sources: 1) political action card starting vote is worth one vote 2) other political action cards can be used as votes instead of invoking their normal action 3) minion vampires (1 for primogen, 2 for prince, 3 for justicar) 4) Edge can be made into one vote So in our learn-the-rules game we had the first vote go real fast as only the person playing the political action card had vote, the one given by the card. We decided that was silly, and let Methuselahs vote after that. Having the second vote be a bloodhunt vote got us even more confused. I'm looking forward to the real rules being published one of these days. I knew I was in trouble when the sample card in the little booklet didn't match the actual card that I had. Flavor text for the rule booklet: No, your other left -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------ Methuselahs DO NOT get a vote.

Donnie Breeding (kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU) wrote: : 1) Do all vampires in play get a vote? Each Political Card is worth one vote, and you may choose to cast one vote for each Political Card in your hand rather than playing it for its particular effect (ie, if you hold "Autarkis Persecution", you may play it as a ballot during a vote called by another Methuselah.) NOTE: Ordinarily, upon playing a card, one immediately draws from the library in order to maintain one's hand size. When playing Political Cards as ballots in a vote, however, one waits until the end of the vote. Also, you get votes for certain ready vampires in your control. Princes may cast 1 vote. Primogen may cast 2 votes. Justicars may cast 3 votes. Finally, you may choose to relinquish the Edge in exchange for 1 vote. : 2) If so; where does it say that? (damn little book) :) Page 39. : 3) If so; do tapped vampires get a vote? (see #2) Yes. In order to cast their votes, Princes, Primogen and Justicars need only be READY; they need not be UNTAPPED. (Page 39.) : 4) Is the card: Disputed Territory missing an icon? : It looks, acts and plays like a political action. Yes, apparently. It looks, acts and plays like a Political Card, as you say. And beyond that, it SAYS that it's a Political Card. Barring a commandment from Justicar Tom Wylie of the WotC Clan, I think we can assume that it's a Political Card. -- _ __ _O_ / / w \ "He won't eat meat or dairy, (_) \/ T / /\__L__/0 \ He won't eat humble pie, William L. Houts \ _ H _ / So sing a 'Miserere' abraxas@cyberspace.com \ (_) (_) / And watch the bastard fry!"

D.A. Kuder (dakuder@netcom.com) wrote: : So players don't get a vote? Aren't they Methuselahs and aren't : Methuselahs vampires? NO. Methuselahs do not get votes per se. Though the player-Methuselahs are vampires, the premise of the game is that Methuselahs do not sully their own hands with direct actions of this kind. Methuselahs expend power and influence in various ways in order to make other, lesser vampires --their minions-- to do their bidding. This premise is borne out by the structure and rules of the game. The direct actions of the Methuselahs upon the game-world is represented by the Master Card Phase. Only through the playing of Master cards may Methuselahs be said to directly meddling in the affairs of Kine and Kindred --their own controlled and uncontrolled vampires, or those of their opponents. In order to cast a vote, a Methuselah must either have: 1. The Edge 2. A ready Prince, Primogen or Justicar. 3. A Political Card. -- _ __ _O_ / / w \ "He won't eat meat or dairy, (_) \/ T / /\__L__/0 \ He won't eat humble pie, William L. Houts \ _ H _ / So sing a 'Miserere' abraxas@cyberspace.com \ (_) (_) / And watch the bastard fry!"

In article <338a58$idq@cyberspace.com>, William L. Houts <abraxas@cyberspace.com> wrote: >Donnie Breeding (kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU) wrote: > >: 1) Do all vampires in play get a vote? > > Each Political Card is worth one vote, and you may choose to cast > one vote for each Political Card in your hand rather than playing it > for its particular effect (ie, if you hold "Autarkis Persecution", > you may play it as a ballot during a vote called by another Methuselah.) Nit: The Methuselah who called the vote can't discard additional political cards to get more votes. Only the OTHER Methuselahs can do this. Also, the political card that's played as an action *is* replaced immediately (not that this gets you anything). See section 17.1 of the rules. This means, any time you call for a vote you're taking a big risk -- other folks can pull "suprise votes" out of their hands, but you can't. -- Doug DeJulio ddj@zardoz.elbows.org http://www.pitt.edu/~ddj/

In article <3370l4$pj7@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU>, kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Donnie Breeding) wrote: > > 1) Do all vampires in play get a vote? > 2) If so; where does it say that? (damn little book) :) no, rules section: 17.1. Voting. Only Primogen, Princes and Justicar get votes. > 3) If so; do tapped vampires get a vote? (see #2) Yes, same section of the rules. "ready" just means "a minion in the active region"(rules section 11.1. The Playing Area); the concept of "ready" and "tapped" are two different things. > 4) Is the card: Disputed Territory missing an icon? > It looks, acts and plays like a political action. Yes, the FAQ from WotC says this is a missprint & should have the political symbol. -chad

In article <338r2p$csc@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, ddj@zardoz.elbows.org (Doug DeJulio) writes: |> In article <338a58$idq@cyberspace.com>, |> William L. Houts <abraxas@cyberspace.com> wrote: |> >Donnie Breeding (kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU) wrote: |> > |> >: 1) Do all vampires in play get a vote? |> > |> > Each Political Card is worth one vote, and you may choose to cast |> > one vote for each Political Card in your hand rather than playing it |> > for its particular effect (ie, if you hold "Autarkis Persecution", |> > you may play it as a ballot during a vote called by another Methuselah.) |> |> Nit: |> |> The Methuselah who called the vote can't discard additional political |> cards to get more votes. Only the OTHER Methuselahs can do this. |> Also, the political card that's played as an action *is* replaced |> immediately (not that this gets you anything). See section 17.1 of |> the rules. |> |> This means, any time you call for a vote you're taking a big risk -- |> other folks can pull "suprise votes" out of their hands, but you |> can't. |> |> -- |> Doug DeJulio |> ddj@zardoz.elbows.org |> http://www.pitt.edu/~ddj/ |> I do not believe this interpretation is correct. I freely admit that the rules are written this way. I think that is in error. My evidence for that is skimpy I admit and would love an official ruling. However, I believe that the Methuselah who called the vote CAN add political cards to get more votes: Why? 1) I was taught that way by WotC at Dragon CON 2) It makes sense that all Methuselahs are treated the same. 3) In the FAQ the following two questions are answered in a row: Does the vote on the vote card count towards my referendum? Yes, when you call a vote, the card itself is worth one vote. If I throw in another card from my hand for one vote, do I replace it right away? (Sec. 17.1, "Voting") No. No cards get replaced until the vote is concluded. It seems to imply in the second question that the the person throwing in another vote is the player calling for a vote. I admit my evidence is not that strong. BUT i would suggest players allow the Methuselah calling a vote to play additional vote cards until WotC officially rules. David Kiker kdk@template.com

In article <3377sh$gmb@search01.news.aol.com>, bloodgod@aol.com (Bloodgod) writes: |> In article <3370l4$pj7@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU>, kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Donnie |> Breeding) writes: |> |> >1. Do all vampires get a vote? |> |> Only Primogens, Justicars and Princes that are in the player's ready area |> whether tapped or untapped get to vote. One vote for a Primogen, two for |> a Prince and three for a Justicar. |> |> >2. If so, where does it say that? |> |> Section 17.1 of the rulebook. |> |> >3. Do tapped vampires get a vote? (See #2) |> |> Primogens, Princes, or Justicars get to vote whether they are tapped or |> untapped as long as they are in the Methuselah's "Ready Area". |> My copy of the rules states that Primogens, Princes, and Justicars can vote if they are "controlled", not "ready" (sect. 17). To me this is saying that even vampires in torpor can vote. Sam (freeman@cae.wsic.edu)

In article <33g0dn$fkf@news.doit.wisc.edu>, Samuel Freeman <freeman@cae.wisc.edu> wrote: >In article <3377sh$gmb@search01.news.aol.com>, bloodgod@aol.com (Bloodgod) writes: >|> Primogens, Princes, or Justicars get to vote whether they are tapped or >|> untapped as long as they are in the Methuselah's "Ready Area". >|> > >My copy of the rules states that Primogens, Princes, and Justicars can vote if >they are "controlled", not "ready" (sect. 17). To me this is saying that even >vampires in torpor can vote. My set of rules just has a list: 1 vote for every ready Primogen, 2 votes for every... etc. However, my rules also say that a minion in the Active Region is "ready", while controlled vampyres can be either in torpor or in the active region. Thus, according to my rules, the only vampyres that can cast votes are those in the active regions, whether tapped or untapped. ...Paul -- + + + + + + + + + + + Paul, cleggp@aol.com. yIlImQo'qu' Don't Panic! alt.galactic-guide yIlaD "When doth life leave the weary? 'Tis not death I fear, but the end of living." -- Paul

In article <33g0dn$fkf@news.doit.wisc.edu>, freeman@cae.wisc.edu (Samuel Freeman) writes: |> In article <3377sh$gmb@search01.news.aol.com>, bloodgod@aol.com (Bloodgod) writes: |> |> In article <3370l4$pj7@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU>, kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Donnie |> |> Breeding) writes: |> |> |> |> >1. Do all vampires get a vote? |> |> |> |> Only Primogens, Justicars and Princes that are in the player's ready area |> |> whether tapped or untapped get to vote. One vote for a Primogen, two for |> |> a Prince and three for a Justicar. |> |> |> |> >2. If so, where does it say that? |> |> |> |> Section 17.1 of the rulebook. |> |> |> |> >3. Do tapped vampires get a vote? (See #2) |> |> |> |> Primogens, Princes, or Justicars get to vote whether they are tapped or |> |> untapped as long as they are in the Methuselah's "Ready Area". |> |> |> |> My copy of the rules states that Primogens, Princes, and Justicars can vote if |> they are "controlled", not "ready" (sect. 17). To me this is saying that even |> vampires in torpor can vote. |> |> Sam (freeman@cae.wsic.edu) |> The revised rules and FAQ that came with it are VERY clear. "Ready" Vampires Vote. Vampires in torpor do not vote. I suspect it was problems in the rules like you noted above that caused WotC to release these revised rules and FAQ. David Kiker kdk@template.com

David Kiker <kdk@template.com> wrote: >freeman@cae.wisc.edu (Samuel Freeman) writes: >|> My copy of the rules states that Primogens, Princes, and Justicars can vote if >|> they are "controlled", not "ready" (sect. 17). To me this is saying that even >|> vampires in torpor can vote. > >The revised rules and FAQ that came with it are VERY clear. >"Ready" Vampires Vote. >Vampires in torpor do not vote. > >I suspect it was problems in the rules like you noted above >that caused WotC to release these revised rules and FAQ. Actually, I don't believe I have a revised rules set, and mine also says "ready vampires". I have no idea what copy of the rules Sam has. I think that a lot of this would cleared up if WotC put the "new, official, this is it guys" rules on the net so we could all be sure we're looking at the right thing. I got my rules out of the starter deck. I've heard that people from GenCon and in the Convocation got an 8.5"x11" set of rules, with a FAQ attachment. I'd never even heard of that until yesterday, when I found that people were quoting rules that weren't in my book. Now I don't know what rules are "current". ...Paul -- + + + + + + + + + + + Paul, cleggp@aol.com. yIlImQo'qu' Don't Panic! alt.galactic-guide yIlaD "When doth life leave the weary? 'Tis not death I fear, but the end of living." -- Paul

Both versions of the rulebook say that only ready vampires will grant votes via their title (section 17.1). This means that vampires in torpor will not grant you votes. This becomes very important when diablerizing them ;) Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for aahz@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

I checked, and the Methuselah calling a vote can indeed burn political cards to gain more votes. I'm not sure how one is supposed to figure this out from the rules, but there you go. Remember that cards burned during a vote are not replaced until the vote is over (though the action card which led to the vote would have been replaced immediately). Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for aahz@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

In rec.games.deckmaster aahz@hal.COM (Tom Wylie) writes: >I checked, and the Methuselah calling a vote can indeed burn political >cards to gain more votes. I'm not sure how one is supposed to figure >this out from the rules, but there you go. Remember that cards burned >during a vote are not replaced until the vote is over (though the action >card which led to the vote would have been replaced immediately). Well, it's very fuzzy, but this is what they say (section 17.1): "A political card always provides on vote for the Methuselah playing it. ... Additional political cards can also be used by any of the other Methuselahs for votes." The "also" suggests to me that the Methuselah calling the vote can certainly use additional cards, and that they're adding this sentence to make sure it's understood that the other Methuselah's can as well, even though they're action cards and not normally playable out of turn. Granted, this is wide open to interpretation, but at least the ruling is consistent with the rules. Rollie

Matt Rollefson <rollie@next.com> wrote: >Well, it's very fuzzy, but this is what they say (section 17.1): >"A political card always provides on vote for the Methuselah playing >it. ... Additional political cards can also be used by any of the >other Methuselahs for votes." >The "also" suggests to me that the Methuselah calling the vote can >certainly use additional cards, and that they're adding this sentence >to make sure it's understood that the other Methuselah's can as well, Hm. My brain skipped the "also" and went straight to "any of the other"... I feel much better now. Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for aahz@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

freeman@cae.wisc.edu (Samuel Freeman) writes: >In article <3377sh$gmb@search01.news.aol.com>, bloodgod@aol.com (Bloodgod) writes: >|> In article <3370l4$pj7@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU>, kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Donnie >|> Breeding) writes: >|> >|> >1. Do all vampires get a vote? >|> >|> Only Primogens, Justicars and Princes that are in the player's ready area >|> whether tapped or untapped get to vote. One vote for a Primogen, two for >|> a Prince and three for a Justicar. >|> >|> >2. If so, where does it say that? >|> >|> Section 17.1 of the rulebook. >|> >|> >3. Do tapped vampires get a vote? (See #2) >|> >|> Primogens, Princes, or Justicars get to vote whether they are tapped or >|> untapped as long as they are in the Methuselah's "Ready Area". >|> >My copy of the rules states that Primogens, Princes, and Justicars can vote if >they are "controlled", not "ready" (sect. 17). To me this is saying that even >vampires in torpor can vote.

David Kiker (kdk@template.com) wrote: : In article <338r2p$csc@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, ddj@zardoz.elbows.org (Doug DeJulio) writes: : |> In article <338a58$idq@cyberspace.com>, : |> William L. Houts <abraxas@cyberspace.com> wrote: : |> >Donnie Breeding (kalem@CSOS.ORST.EDU) wrote: : |> > : |> >: 1) Do all vampires in play get a vote? Apparently, Donnie, all those who responded to your question were confusing the term "vampire" in your question with Methuselah. Methuselahs, including the one who called the vote, can play political cards worth one vote apiece, tap Ventrue Headquarters for three votes, and various other vote-casting cards. As for "vampires", properly termed *minions* to avoid said confusion, the votes go like this: Primogens -------------1 vote Princes----------------2 votes Justicars--------------3 votes Any minion without any of these three titles do NOT get votes. Note: Contested titles and/or contested, titled minions receive NO vote at all as they are not controlled yet by any Methuselah. As such, Princes cannot vote on their own Praxis.