Bonding (Action Mod) Q

Folks: Here's a situation that came recently. Gloria Giovanni declares a bleed. Since Gloria has superior DOM (and I had Bonding in my hand), I declared that she was now bleeding at 2 with 1 stealth. (Bonding says in part "(S) +1 stealth and +1 bleed"). My prey declared that since no one had (yet) declared a block, I could not (essentially) use the superior version of Bonding. I could only use that after someone tried to block. I had thought that I could use this Action Modifier before blocks were attempted and that I could always add the superior +1 bleed and the +1 stealth came along for free, as it were. Could someone shed some light on this?? I realize that this is, to some extent, a moot point since I can (and did) hold the Bonding until blocks were declared, but I would like to learn the finer points of action modifier timing. Thanks, Madman -- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).

Madman2001 wrote: > Here's a situation that came recently. Gloria Giovanni declares a > bleed. Since Gloria has superior DOM (and I had Bonding in my hand), I > declared that she was now bleeding at 2 with 1 stealth. (Bonding says > in part "(S) +1 stealth and +1 bleed"). My prey declared that since no > one had (yet) declared a block, I could not (essentially) use the > superior version of Bonding. I could only use that after someone tried > to block. Correct, and then only if the would-be blocker's intercept equalled or exceeded your stealth. > I had thought that I could use this Action Modifier before blocks were > attempted and that I could always add the superior +1 bleed and the +1 > stealth came along for free, as it were. > > Could someone shed some light on this?? I realize that this is, to > some extent, a moot point since I can (and did) hold the Bonding until > blocks were declared, but I would like to learn the finer points of > action modifier timing. 6.2.2.2 Stealth can be added during an action only when needed (that is, only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion). -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

> 6.2.2.2 > Stealth can be added during an action only when needed (that is, > only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking > minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion). I was aware of this rule. But, I don't think that this answers my question concerning the superior version of Bonding. That is: (a) Gloria can use the superior version of Bonding which adds +1 bleed, (b) along with adding +1 bleed, the superior version of Bonding adds +1 stealth. In other words, I was not gratuitously adding +1 stealth, but it came along for free when I added the +1 bleed. Surely I can add +1 bleed?? ;) Confusedly yours, [ quoted text not captured ]

Sure you can, play bonding at the inferior. You can only play the superior if you need the stealth. Madman2001 wrote: > In other words, I was not gratuitously adding +1 stealth, but it came > along for free when I added the +1 bleed. Surely I can add +1 bleed?? > ;) -- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/

Madman2001 wrote: > > > 6.2.2.2 > > Stealth can be added during an action only when needed (that is, > > only if the action is currently being blocked and the blocking > > minion has enough intercept to block the acting minion). > > I was aware of this rule. But, I don't think that this answers my > question concerning the superior version of Bonding. That is: > > (a) Gloria can use the superior version of Bonding which adds +1 > bleed, > (b) along with adding +1 bleed, the superior version of Bonding > adds +1 stealth. > > In other words, I was not gratuitously adding +1 stealth, but it came > along for free when I added the +1 bleed. Surely I can add +1 bleed?? Superior Bonding adds +1 bleed and adds +1 stealth. Neither effect is a side-effect, they are both the effect of the card (at superior). Since the effect adds stealth, it cannot be played (per 6.2.2.2 of the rules) if stealth is not needed. Similarly, when trying to block, you cannot play superior Spirit's Touch (ungratuitously, to get the maneuver) if you do not need intercept. [ quoted text not captured ]

Madman wrote: << I was aware of this rule. But, I don't think that this answers my question concerning the superior version of Bonding. That is: (a) Gloria can use the superior version of Bonding which adds +1 bleed, (b) along with adding +1 bleed, the superior version of Bonding adds +1 stealth. In other words, I was not gratuitously adding +1 stealth, but it came along for free when I added the +1 bleed. Surely I can add +1 bleed?? ;) >> Well, the catch is that you can't add stealth unless you specifically need it. Superior Bonding gives you stealth, and if you don't need it (i.e. someone is trying to block you), you can't play Bonding at superior. However, due to the timing invloved in the "block" step, you don't have to worry about this. When you ask your opponent if they are going to block, there is always a point where they say "I am not going to attempt to block", at which point no mater what you do, they no longer have the option of blocking (unless they have Aneke out, but only 'cause of her special power). At this point, you can play the Bonding at inferior, and it doesn't matter that you don't have the +1 stealth, as they can no longer attempt to block you. Sadly, they can then (after they declone to block and you play inferior Bonding) play Deflection, and bounce you over to someone else, who may then block you, and you don't have the +1 stealth from the Bonding. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to fear. Fear leads to...anger? Wait a second." -Xander

Thanks for your response. Please tell me if this scenario is correct: I declare a bleed for 1; my prey does not block; I play an action modifier (e.g. Bonding or Aire of Elation). However, my prey has lost the right to declare a block. In other words, the "no block" decision on the action is irrevocable and action modifiers do not re-open the opprotunity for a block. Thanks, as always, Madman the newbie [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <QrlU3.3621$L5.4...@c01read02-admin.service.talkway.com>, "Madman2001" <Mad...@madman.com> wrote: > Thanks for your response. > > Please tell me if this scenario is correct: I declare a bleed for 1; my > prey does not block; I play an action modifier (e.g. Bonding or Aire of > Elation). Yes the scenario is correct However, my prey has lost the right to declare a block. In > other words, the "no block" decision on the action is irrevocable and > action modifiers do not re-open the opprotunity for a block. Yes you have free action for play any version Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Madman2001 wrote: > > Thanks for your response. > > Please tell me if this scenario is correct: I declare a bleed for 1; my > prey does not block; I play an action modifier (e.g. Bonding or Aire of > Elation). However, my prey has lost the right to declare a block. In > other words, the "no block" decision on the action is irrevocable and > action modifiers do not re-open the opprotunity for a block. If, when you say "my prey does not block", you mean "my prey declares that she is not blocking", then yes. The decision to make no (further) block attempts is final. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, LSJ wrote: > > Please tell me if this scenario is correct: I declare a bleed for 1; my > > prey does not block; I play an action modifier (e.g. Bonding or Aire of > > Elation). However, my prey has lost the right to declare a block. In > > other words, the "no block" decision on the action is irrevocable and > > action modifiers do not re-open the opprotunity for a block. > > If, when you say "my prey does not block", you mean "my prey declares that > she is not blocking", then yes. The decision to make no (further) block > attempts is final. Can you play reaction cards other than blocking ones (e.g., Deflection or Telepathic Counter)? Fish.

On Thu, 4 Nov 1999, Madman2001 wrote: > In other words, I was not gratuitously adding +1 stealth, but it came > along for free when I added the +1 bleed. Surely I can add +1 bleed?? Yes. Use it at inferior. You didn't need stealth - right? Yet you played stealth. Both of these are indisputable facts. *How* the stealth came along is irrelevant, it came along as a result of a card you played - hence, you can't play that card because the stealth wasn't necessary. -- James Coupe

On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, Fish Flowers wrote: > Can you play reaction cards other than blocking ones (e.g., Deflection or > Telepathic Counter)? Yes. The only question you ever ask your prey, which they are bound by, is "Are you blocking this action?" When they say yes or no, that's that. However, bouncing a bleed or reducing it isn't the same as blocking, it's merely reacting, so the "Are you blocking?" question can *never* prevent them from doing it. -- James Coupe

Fish Flowers wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Nov 1999, LSJ wrote: > > > > Please tell me if this scenario is correct: I declare a bleed for 1; my > > > prey does not block; I play an action modifier (e.g. Bonding or Aire of > > > Elation). However, my prey has lost the right to declare a block. In > > > other words, the "no block" decision on the action is irrevocable and > > > action modifiers do not re-open the opprotunity for a block. > > > > If, when you say "my prey does not block", you mean "my prey declares that > > she is not blocking", then yes. The decision to make no (further) block > > attempts is final. > > Can you play reaction cards other than blocking ones (e.g., Deflection or > Telepathic Counter)? Yes. -- [ quoted text not captured ]

OK, so you can't add an excess of stealth. Here are some further questions/variations on this theme. Lost in Crowds: I bleed. Prey blocks. May I then play Lost in Crowds at superior (+2 stealth) or can I just play it at inferior (+1 stealth)?? Elder Intervention: My predator's minion attempts to bleed. My minon blocks. Her minon pulls out Lost in Crowds (at inferior <g>). At this point, can I play Elder Intervention even though it provides +2 (not +1) intercept?? Let me know. The answers to this question are far from obvious to me. Thanks, Madman [ quoted text not captured ]

Madman2001 wrote: > > OK, so you can't add an excess of stealth. Here are some further > questions/variations on this theme. Let's see if I can't explain this intellegently... > Lost in Crowds: I bleed. Prey blocks. May I then play Lost in Crowds > at superior (+2 stealth) or can I just play it at inferior (+1 > stealth)?? You may play Lost in Crowds at superior if you want to. The "+2 stealth" comes as a chunk, not one stealth at a time. The same goes for intercept. > Elder Intervention: My predator's minion attempts to bleed. My minon > blocks. Her minon pulls out Lost in Crowds (at inferior <g>). At this > point, can I play Elder Intervention even though it provides +2 (not > +1) intercept?? You can play the Elder Intervention because you need intercept. > Let me know. The answers to this question are far from obvious to me. Here's the best analogy I can think of to help explain this: Imagine you have a parking meter, a nickel, and a dime. (or if you live in another country, you've got a parking meter, and worthless American money.) We'll say the parking meter represents the intercept, and the coins represent stealth. If you park and there is no meter, you can't use your money. If the local government runs up and installs a meter, you would need to use money to park. I am going to assume that either coin will meet you parking needs. Your dilemma... Do you use the nickel (inferior) or the dime (superior)? If choose the dime, you don't get to use half of it or get change. But you also get twice the effect of the nickel. If your wife calls on you on your cell phone and asks you to pick up groceries, (interpret this as +1 intercept) then you might suddenly need a dime of parking time. If you had used the nickel, you would need another nickel of parking time, but if you had used the dime then you wouldn't need any more change. I hope this is clearer. Rob Grau rfg...@eos.ncsu.edu PS For the less confused readers, I assume that you replace your hand with whatever else in the seat of your car, which is probably a rabbit's foot (Magic of the Smith) or a cigarette lighter (Concealed Weapon) or simply your car, (Well Aimed Car) :)

Madman2001 wrote: > > OK, so you can't add an excess of stealth. Here are some further > questions/variations on this theme. Actually, you can't add stealth when you don't need stealth. This is slightly different than not being able to add excess stealth (see below). > Lost in Crowds: I bleed. Prey blocks. May I then play Lost in Crowds > at superior (+2 stealth) or can I just play it at inferior (+1 > stealth)?? Superior is fine, since you need stealth. > Elder Intervention: My predator's minion attempts to bleed. My minon > blocks. Her minon pulls out Lost in Crowds (at inferior <g>). At this > point, can I play Elder Intervention even though it provides +2 (not > +1) intercept?? Yes, since she needs intercept. [ quoted text not captured ]

Thanks, everyone, for making this adding stealth/intercept clear to me. In particular, thanks to Rob (for this brilliant parking meter analogy) and Peter (who wrote an extended discussion of this). I understand it much better now, and can (hopefully) appreciate the intricacies. [ quoted text not captured ]