Whom would you like to see Advanced?

Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? It seems that the Advancement cards we've seen so far usually took a solid to powerful vampire and made them slightly better by giving the advancement option. It is generally fine if both cards are good for a deck - including multiple copies can now give you a slight advantage. Like instead of 2× Quentin King III, you can use 1× basic and 1× advanced (if the title does not really matter for the deck). I'm curious whom you would like to see advanced, and why, and how the advancement card would look like. Just for the kicks I did some brainstorming, and made up a few advancement cards that would be more like a "beefing-up" of rarely seen crypt cards - like Lazarus (included for reference). If you feel like it, scroll down to "Appendix" for references of what I came up with (I must confess, my list is more a toying with concepts than a wishlist). You may comment on my crypt cards if you like, but what I'm really interested in is what the title of the post says. Whom would you like to see Advanced? ;) Bye, Daneel ------ Appendix: Sample Advancement cards Appolonius, Advanced Group 1 Brujah Capacity 10 CEL PRE for pot Advanced, Camarilla Primogen: +1 Strength. Appolonious gets an optional Maneuver each combat. [MERGE]: Appolonious does not have to burn blood to play combat cards. Quinton McDonnel, Advanced Group 1 Gangrel Capacity 8 ani cel FOR pro Advanced, Independent: Quinton burns 1 less blood when playing cards that require Fortitude. Once each round of combat, he may burn a blood to treat aggravated damage as normal for the remainder of the current round. [MERGE]: Anarch Baron of Glasgow Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro, Advanced Group 2 Malkavian Capacity 6 DEM DOM aus cel pot Advanced, Camarilla: As long as he does not have a title, any Follower of Set may enter combat with Damaskenos as a (D) action. [Merge]: Prince of Cairo Lucretia, Cess Queen, Advanced Group 1 Nosferatu Capacity 10 ANI OBF aus cel for pot Advanced, Camarilla Primogen: When Lucretia is acting, your hand is 1 card larger. If she succesfully performs an action, you may draw a card. [MERGE]: Cards that require Obfuscate cost Lucretia 1 less blood to play. Radeyah, Advanced Group 2 Toreador Capacity 6 CEL obf pot pre Advanced, Camarilla. [MERGE]: Blood Hunts cannot be called on Radeyah. Lazarus, Advanced Group 1 Tremere Capacity 9 AUS DOM THA cel pot Advanced, Camarilla Primogen: Lazarus gets one optional maneuver each combat. [MERGE]: Once each combat, Lazarus may burn 1 blood to get one press, only usable to continue combat. Democritus, Advanced Group 1 Ventrue Capacity 10 DOM FOR PRE aus cel obf Advanced, Camarilla Ventrue Justicar: when Democritus, Advanced enters play, you may search your hand, library or ash heap for a Location card and put it into play. Pay the cost as normal. You must still meet the requirements for bringing the location into play. [MERGE]: Democritus gets an additional +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready non-Camarilla vampire.

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:a23a105e.04021...@posting.google.com... > Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement > cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? Addendum : Black Cat ADV Clan: Brujah Group: 1 Capacity: 6 Discipline: pot pre tha CEL Independant during your untap phase, you may move any equipment from black cat to another vampire you control. MERGED : Anarch baron of London (+Equipping Black Cat costs 1 less pool (but never less than 0 pool)) - Name: Lupo ADV Clan: Brujah Group: 1 Capacity: 3 Discipline: POT Camarilla MERGED Lupo can burn one blood for one maneuver once per combat - Name: Lydia Van Cuelen ADV Clan: Tremere Group: 1 Capacity: 7 Discipline: aus dom pre tha cel for Independant +1 bleed. Infernal. MERGE : If Lydia is ready and Anarch during your master phase, she gains a blood. (+ an additional 1 bleed) - Name: Jazz Wentworth ADV Clan: Ventrue Group: 1 Capacity: 5 Discipline: dom for PRE Camarilla: During your untap phase, you may burn the edge to gain 1 additional pool. MERGE : Jazz get +1 Stealth on undirected actions. (+ If the Edge is not controlled, Jazz may {give you control of} it as a +1 stealth action.) - Name: Ebanezer Roush ADV Clan: Nosferatu Group: 1 Capacity: 8 Discipline: pro ANI OBF POT Camarilla: During combat, Ebanezer may burn one blood to burn a vampire of capacity below 4 instead of sending him into torpor. MERGE : At the end of your turn, You may forfeit your discard phase and pay a pool to untap Ebanezer. (+Ebanezer may {enter combat with} a vampire of capacity below 4 controlled by your predator or prey. This is a +2 stealth (D) action.) - Name: Agaitas, The Scholar of Antiquities ADV Clan: Harbinger of Skulls Group: 2 Capacity: 7 Discipline: for AUS NEC Sabbat: Once per turn, you may discard a card from your hand to reduce a bleed against you by one. MERGE ICON : Sabbat Archbishop of Marseilles (When you play a card, you may draw its replacement from your prey's library instead of your own. Put the card drawn face-up in front of you. It is still considered to be in your hand, to be played or discarded as normal.) - Name: Donatien ADV Clan: Toreador antitribu Group: 2 Capacity: 10 Discipline: CEL POT AUS PRE +1 Intercept MERGE : Donation does not tap when performing an action to create a vampire. (+ Sabbat cardinal. As a (D) action, Donatien may bleed any Methuselah who has attempted an unsuccessful bleeding action since your last turn. +1 bleed.) - Name: Gaspare Giovanni ADV Clan: Giovanni Group: 2 Capacity: 6 Discipline: cel nec POT Independant. Gaspare can enter combat with any minion as a (D) Action. MERGE : Gaspare can burn one blood to give one press to one of your minions in combat. (+During your master phase, Gaspare may burn 2 blood to move a vampire from your ash heap to the top of your crypt. +1 strength.) - Name: Kemintiri ADV Clan: VENTRUE Group: 2 Capacity: 10 Discipline: aus dom OBF PRE SER THA Ventrue JUSTICAR MERGE : Independant, Kemintri has 2 votes. (+ Independent: Kemintiri gets +1 bleed and +1 stealth when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a Ventrue. Any Ventrue controlled by another Methuselah can enter combat with Kemintiri as a (D) action; Kemintiri can enter combat with any Ventrue controlled by another Methuselah as a +1 stealth (D) action.) - Name: Lena Rowe ADV Clan: Pander Group: 2 Capacity: 4 Discipline: aus obf pre Sabbat. Lena cannot bear a title. Lena gets +1 Stealth on political actions. MERGE : Lena can burn one blood for one vote once each turn. Sabbat: Lena cannot attempt actions that would give her a title and cannot be chosen as the recipient of a title. - Name: Lisette Vizquel ADV Clan: Lasombra Group: 2 Capacity: 6 Discipline: pro DOM POT Sabbat Bishop. +1 bleed MERGE : During other methuselah's turns, you may pay one pool to untap Lisette when a (D) action targetting one of your vampires is announced. (+ Sabbat Bishop: Lisette gets +1 intercept against any vampire perfroming a diablerie action.) - Name: Ilyana Ravidovich ADV Clan: Ventrue Group: 3 Capacity: 5 Discipline: aus dom for pre Independant, Anarch. Once each action, Ilyana may burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept. MERGE : Anarch Baron of Strasbourg (+You get 2 extra votes in referendums to call blood hunts against Ilyana.) - Name: Thomas Steed, The Angry ADV Clan: Salubri antitribu Group: 2 Capacity: 4 Discipline: aus val (no ani here) Sabbat: Before range is determined in a round of combat, Thomas may equip with a melee weapon from your hand. MERGE : cards you discard during your minion phase are shuffled in your library instead of goign to the ash heap. (+ Thomas may search your library for a melee weapon and move it to your hand as a +1 stealth action. Discard down to your hand size and shuffle your library afterward)

I'd say that a few of your vamps are simply to good in their advanced status, so that merging them is unnecessary (like anyone with a Primogen title shouldn't have it on the Adv. version, merge if you want it.) That said and Partially for purely personal reasons: Cameron, Adv cap: 5 POT dom obt pro Merged: Archbishop of Madison -Cameron

I'd personally like to see the Advancing mechanic developed a bit to a more "user friendly" direction, to make the Adv Vamps actually worth thinking about. Of course, nice Adv abilities wouldnt hurt either. As for Advanced Vampires, Al-Ashrad would be a nice addition to the Advanced vampires.

>I'd personally like to see the Advancing mechanic developed a bit to a more >"user friendly" direction, to make the Adv Vamps actually worth thinking >about. ? How would you suggest making the mechanic more user friendly? I don't see any real problems with it the way it is. My only suggestion would be to provide for future scenarios where you could have Advanced x 2, and Advanced x 3 versions. Some games (like L5R for instance) already have multiple versions of the same character. Might make things even more interesting! =D Halcyan 2

>I'd say that a few of your vamps are simply to good in their advanced >status, so that merging them is unnecessary (like anyone with a >Primogen title shouldn't have it on the Adv. version, merge if you >want it.) Agreed, though allowing one to pick and choose which version has the title might be a little too much min/maxing for the Merged version. One good example might be Jessica, where both versions have the Bishop title but the Advanced is a capacity higher. Similarly, both versions of Lazarus have the Primogen title. Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040214164536...@mb-m29.aol.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Which is bad stuff since the advanced version could have been a prince =) he's still one of the crappiest tremere around ...

Purely for personal reasons I would like to see this. Smudge the Ignored [ADV] Clan: Caitiff Group: 1 Capacity: 7 Discipline: AUS POT FOR PRO PRE DOM obh dai <Camarilla:> [MERGE] Smudge get's +2 hand damage flavor text: "Ignore me now you wankers" Emile "We are an ape with a symbiotic relationship to a mushroom"

Xaviar Capacity 10 Disciplines: ANI aus cel FOR pot PRO Anarch Baron of Seattle Merged While Xaviar is ready Any other minion you control can take a +1 stealth action to be come Anarch.

Theo Bell, Advance Capacity: 7 Disciplines: cel dom POT pre Anarch Theo gets +1 intercept when blocking older Vampires. Merged Theo can take a +1 stealth action to search your library for a gun. Pay equipment cost and equip it to Theo. Reshuffle your library afterward

>Purely for personal reasons I would like to see this. > >Smudge the Ignored [ADV] >Clan: Caitiff >Group: 1 >Capacity: 7 >Discipline: AUS POT FOR PRO PRE DOM obh dai ><Camarilla:> >[MERGE] Smudge get's +2 hand damage > I second the idea of Advanced Smudge. Though maybe he should be Baali or something. We wouldn't want to make him vulnerable to Tradition Upheld! Halcyan 2

k, this isn't really a direct reply to your question, but here's what i'd like to see. since L5R is pretty much the first game i know of that introduced advanced versions of characters, and the merging aspect of that I'd like to see a shift in the VtES advanced/merge dynamic. in L5R you play your dynasty pretty fast, usually around 3 cards per turn, so to get your advanced version to merge wasn't too difficult. you'd most likely run across it in normal play. whereas in VtES the crypt [normally] doesn't run through so fast. it's not uncommon to see the first four cards drawn from the crypt the only cards drawn from the crypt the entire game. i personally love the idea of advanced vampires, but i wish there was a more reliable and faster way to play them. if i remember there is a library card out there to do this, but a library card in a deck of around 90 to pull some advanced vampire merging... dunno. i still think there should be a cardless way just like they have for going anarch. i think isn't it pay 1 pool and 4 transfers to merge (can't remember because it's so hard to actually pull off i rarely get to use the rule). so why don't they have something like pay 1 or 2 extra pool to find said adv. vamp and do the same thing? so pay 2 pool and 4 transfers to bust out the corresponding Tusk to merge. i really don't think it'd be that game breaking, most of the adv. vamps aren't gamebreaking as is, pretty well made. and it isn't as taxing or expensive to make it an ignorable feature of the game. just some thoughts ps: i want an advance Dani [!nos] because his first picture of him smoking looks so cool, i wanna see another. give him ANI and +1 stealth to recruit retainers or something.

Tom, Advanced Clan: Blood Brother Group: 2 Capacity: 5 Discipline: FOR pot san thn Sabbat Chicago Circle. When Tom plays a card requiring Sanguinis, he gains 1 blood. MERGED : All Blood Brothers of the Chicago Circle become Black Hand.

"Azel" <opao...@comcast.net> wrote: > i think isn't it pay 1 pool and 4 transfers to merge (can't remember because > it's so hard to actually pull off i rarely get to use the rule). so why > don't they have something like pay 1 or 2 extra pool to find said adv. vamp > and do the same thing? so pay 2 pool and 4 transfers to bust out the > corresponding Tusk to merge. Masters can easily help to bring Advanced vampires into play. Gift of Experience will go get the Advanced vampire from your crypt and merge him as a MPA. He'll be tapped afterwards, but you don't spend any transfers or pool to merge (and obviously there are ways to untap vampires). Effective Management will bring a vampire from your crypt to your uncontrolled region without paying a pool or using any transfers. Recruitment will bring a -specific- vampire into your uncontrolled region at the cost of 1 pool. Both of these masters can still be useful even if you don't use them to merge a vampire. I believe that these are sufficient. -- james o'rance

On 16 Feb 2004 18:03:09 -0800, jor...@sydcon.net (James O'Rance) scrawled: >Recruitment will bring a -specific- vampire into your uncontrolled >region at the cost of 1 pool. 2 pool. Coroner's Contact is 1 pool, you damn filthy necromancer. :) > Both of these masters can still be >useful even if you don't use them to merge a vampire. > >I believe that these are sufficient. If Gift of Experience didn't tap the vampire, you could actually use it on the larger capacity advanced vampires. as it is, you just lose too much 'action investment' to merge, say, Lazarus or Lambach. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

i'll give it some time, but i really don't think they are sufficient. hopefully time will bear out that i'm wrong, but to lock up a master phase action (read: precious) and tap said vampire at the end, thus losing an action, is not something i'm going out of my way to do. effective management does cycle your crypt, but when i've used this for my crypts with advanced vampires i felt it sorely lacking, once again ties up mpas and master slots, just to desperately scrounge for a vampire. and most importantly: all this is impinged on drawing said library card. it just doesn't provide an enough incentive to play with advanced vampires; nowhere near as usable as l5r did anyway (where i'm definitely thinking they picked up the idea). either 1 of two things needs to occur, a drastic increase of benefits in merging vampires, or a faster and more reliable way to obtain them. i don't like increases to the power curve, many of these vampires add interesting flavor, but generally aren't essential to deck construction. i do like the cardless effect because it gives recourse to a) people who don't have access to Gift of Experience b) doesn't leave the player dependent on "fishing." c) it creates no errata in printed cards d)while upping several overlooked advanced vampires into playable status. the only argument i read from all this is a) afraid it might unbalance the game b) it renders certain cards wallpaper (which recruitment will never be wallpaper in trick decks with non-advanced vampires, and Gift allows a different costed version thus playable - just like galaric is playable in anarch decks). i just don't feel this is enough to warrant letting such a cool mechanic addition to the game just languish. i hope this doesn't become like magic where cool ideas come and as the sets change they are forever discarded and forgotten. if you have seen an incredibly effective deck draw out several adv. vampires for merging during the course of play post it up here. i wanna see what module i should expect using to pull this off reliably - and then see if i find it worth the cost in my metagame.

dan...@eposta.hu (Daneel) wrote in message news:<a23a105e.04021...@posting.google.com>... > Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement > cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? > > It seems that the Advancement cards we've seen so far usually took a > solid to powerful vampire and made them slightly better by giving the > advancement option. It is generally fine if both cards are good for a > deck - including multiple copies can now give you a slight advantage. > Like instead of 2x Quentin King III, you can use 1x basic and 1x > advanced (if the title does not really matter for the deck). > > I'm curious whom you would like to see advanced, Appolonius Crusher Lucretia - Cess Queen and why, Because these cards rarely see play and how the > advancement card would look like. > All advanced cards for the above are identical to original. Merged Appolonius has a built-in rush [eg is an Archon] Merged Crusher has a built-in rush [eg is an Archon] Merged Lucretia has +1 bleed

> > if you have seen an incredibly effective deck draw out several adv. vampires > for merging during the course of play post it up here. i wanna see what > module i should expect using to pull this off reliably - and then see if i > find it worth the cost in my metagame. > Though I agree with some of your statements, I must say that if you intend to build a deck around a specific ADV vampire, then you don't need too much effort to do so. I've a Tegyrius the Justicar Upper-blocker deck. And the deck works fine tooled with 3 basic tegyrius, 2 Adv tegyrius and 2 gift of experience. Must say that the rest of the crypt becomes quite short, but basically it's another one man army deck. In all games I played with it, Tegyrius was merged quite earlier in the game. Initially, I planned to pack Madame guil, too, but then the capacity of the crypt was too high. A guy in barcelona have had nice performance for his Sebastian Goulet-Shadow court satyr deck (2nd at a tournament in zaragoza, winner at a tournament nearby barcelona) and played the same module: 3 basic, 2 adv and 2 GoE. Should take into account that both decks doesn't specifically need their star player merged, since they both use the basic abilities and ocassionally the merged one. Ok, having the merged ability and both versions abilities is great. Had seen too a Lasombra with for deck that used both versions of lucita and marcus vites (4 copies of each, 2 adv and 2 basics) and 2-4 GoE. Smiling Tom

dan...@eposta.hu (Daneel) wrote in message news:<a23a105e.04021...@posting.google.com>... > Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement > cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? Ambrogino Giovanni Group: 2 Capacity: 10 Disciplines: aus DOM NEC POT THA Independent: Once each combat, Ambrogino can burn 1 blood to treat aggravated damage as normal for the remainder of the round. [MERGED] +1 vote. (utterly powerful, but it's just a dream ;) cheers, Fabio, the_capuchin

perhaps i should be more specific. i'm not really interested in mono-vamp trick decks and their adv. merge ability. that already works, even before GoE was made. i just want to add them as a neat utilitarian tool with a greater chance of pulling it off. if you've played or seen l5r you may have seen several trick decks based on merged adv. characters, which is very cool, but you also see plenty of merged adv. characters just because they add something special, not absolutely crucial, to the deck. i think people can do this due to the rate of speed which people cycle through their dynasty deck. this unfortunately does not happen in vtes crypts on average. so splashing an adv. vampire is not really practical, whereas trick deck-ing is still doable due to crypt focus (naturally) and emergency "fishing" cards. i mean, there's some interesting vampires i'd like to play with just for the added effect, but, as example, i'm not gonna make a Tusk the Talebearer trick deck because that's the only reliable way to pull out his adv. merge special. if it costed maybe an extra pool or 2 maybe, though i'd still look for a GoE to add or two, but it adds a level of flexibility and entertainment that right now i don't have. maybe you've felt the same way too?

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> kirjoitti viestissä news:jpd330trrgn56997g...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Recruitment, BTW, is 3 pool. 2 for the card, and one more for the merging. Anyhow, I personally choose Recruitment over Gift of Experience, due to the tapping. Even so, Tegyrius merged is a good option for Gift, due to access to 2nd tradition.

(Daneel) wrote: > I'm curious whom you would like to see advanced, and why, and how the > advancement card would look like. I'd love to see my favorite vampire get an advanced version. Although he is powerful enough already, here's the card I'd issue: Uriah Winter [Advanced] Caitiff for pot Vampires controlled by your predator may take a +1 stealth action to change Uriah's clan. That would make the Trojan Horse decks rock. Regards, Noal

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20040216040528...@mb-m21.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I agree, though the above is silly (and funny) and I'd prefer something like: Smudge the Ignored [ADV] Clan: Caitiff Group: 1 Capacity: 2 Discipline: None <Independant> Only vampires with AUS may vote in bloodhunts called against Smudge [MERGED] Discipline cards on Smudge give him the superior version of those Disciplines. (If he's ignored he should be able to get away with diablerie better than he has been! I also considered making him Cap 3 and adding obf.) ThunderFoot

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:33:00 -0800, "Azel" <opao...@comcast.net> wrote: >and most importantly: all this is impinged on drawing said library card. it >just doesn't provide an enough incentive to play with advanced vampires; >nowhere near as usable as l5r did anyway (where i'm definitely thinking they >picked up the idea). See, and here I thought they got it from a *different* game... -- pseudosoldier Lazarus, Poke-volve into... er, Lazarus!

legb...@mailandnews.com (legbiter) wrote in message news:<22fea992.04021...@posting.google.com>... > dan...@eposta.hu (Daneel) wrote in message news:<a23a105e.04021...@posting.google.com>... > > Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement > > cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? > > > > It seems that the Advancement cards we've seen so far usually took a > > solid to powerful vampire and made them slightly better by giving the > > advancement option. It is generally fine if both cards are good for a > > deck - including multiple copies can now give you a slight advantage. > > Like instead of 2x Quentin King III, you can use 1x basic and 1x > > advanced (if the title does not really matter for the deck). > > > > I'm curious whom you would like to see advanced, > > Appolonius > Crusher > Lucretia - Cess Queen > > and why, > > Because these cards rarely see play > > and how the > > advancement card would look like. > > > All advanced cards for the above are identical to original. Thinking about this some more: Advanced Appolonius: is Independent [no votes]. While Appolonius is ready, all Anarchs you control gain +1 bleed. Advanced Crusher: is Independent [no votes]. While Crusher is ready, all Anarchs you control gain +1 strength. Advanced Lucretia: has an extra vote in all political actions. Lucretia gains +1 stealth on all Undirected actions. [loses her +1 stealth on all actions] > Merged Appolonius may enter combat with any minion as a D action. Merged Crusher may enter combat with any minion as a D action. Merged Lucretia is Independent, Anarch Baron of Corte [for example]

legbiter wrote: > Advanced Lucretia: has an extra vote in all political actions. > Lucretia gains +1 stealth on all Undirected actions. [loses her +1 > stealth on all actions] this would mean that merged Lucretia gets +2 stealth on undirected actions. maybe a bit strong. > > > Merged Appolonius may enter combat with any minion as a D action. > Merged Crusher may enter combat with any minion as a D action. just an idea: they can enter combat with any _non-anarch_ as a (D) action. kind of 'join us or die!' threat :-) > Merged Lucretia is Independent, Anarch Baron of Corte [for example] I definetly agree on that printing advanced vampires for old ones that rarely see play would be an excellent idea. not much point in improving vampires that are already good. some others could be: Quinton McDonnell adv: same except ANI and PRO Tiberius, The Scandalmonger adv: may burn a blood to burn the top card of your prey's library. Eliott Sinclair, Virtuoso Thespian adv: erm... some serious power boost Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro adv: Damaskenos gets +1 stealth when attempting a (D) action against a methuselah that controls a ready Follower of Set. merged: Prince of Cairo Elisabetta Romano adv: dom pro qui THA aus merged: Combat cards cost Elisabetta one less to play.

As much as I love this one... > Democritus, Advanced > Group 1 > Ventrue > Capacity 10 > DOM FOR PRE aus cel obf > Advanced, Camarilla Ventrue Justicar: when Democritus, Advanced enters > play, you may search your hand, library or ash heap for a Location > card and put it into play. Pay the cost as normal. You must still meet > the requirements for bringing the location into play. [MERGE]: > Democritus gets an additional +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who > controls a ready non-Camarilla vampire. This is excellent. Have Arika call Banishment on him, again, and again, and again. Or if he's contested, when he comes back in, boom, another location. Other ideas. Democritus, Advanced Group 1 Ventrue Capacity 10 DOM FOR PRE AUS cel Camarilla. Democritus can burn 1 blood to gain 2 votes per referendum. His bleed gets +1 for each location you control {MERGE} Democritus can take control of a location from another methusalah as a (D) +1 stealth action. Yes, it may seem alot, but it's not like he doesn't deserve it. C'mon! He looks like Arnie! Or... DOM FOR PRE aus cel Camarilla. Democritus can burn 1 blood to gain 2 votes per referendum. He has a +1 bleed for each location you control (Merge) Democritus can call a vote at +1 stealth. Declare a location controlled by another methuselah. If it is succesful, you take control of it. He just needs to be better! But of all cards I want to see with an Advancement: ALL SETITES FROM PRE-FINAL NIGHTS! Make them actually worth their friggin' cost! All 8 caps MUST have All superior in-clans at the very least! And a few of them should have all their actions or certain actions at +1 Stealth, like Serpentis actions, or Presence actions, or at least Corruption actions. Here's one Kephamos, High Priest of Marrakech Follower of Set, Group 2 8 Cap SER OBF PRE DOM (or even just dom) Untap Kephamos if he successfully plays Corruption. <MERGE> Kephamos can burn a blood to get an additional +1 bleed when bleeding someone who controls a vampire with a corruption counter. Jamie The Seppo

> perhaps i should be more specific. i'm not really interested in mono-vamp > trick decks and their adv. merge ability. that already works, even before > GoE was made. i just want to add them as a neat utilitarian tool with a > greater chance of pulling it off. Well, here is my experience. I'm currently playing a Ventrue Antitribu deck (naturally!) which uses one copy of Dominique and one copy of Dominique, Advanced. Out of the first four I seldom get both vamps (no pun). Out of 5-6 there is a decent chance. Out of 5 games I had both of her in the initial draw of 4 vampires twice, had one of her but not the other once (but I needed another minion, so I spent two turns fishing, and she was the second, so I merged her instead, figuring 3 pool and 12 transfers spent over three turns might as well give me 2 votes if nothing else). The rest of the games I didn't see her at all. Without much consideration I'd say that there is probably around 10% chance to draw any two specific vampires in the opening draw. If you move down new crypt cards, your chances of gettin the needed vam(s) increase. I'm pretty cool with a mechanic that allows you to beef up a character once every 10 games. Since all (most) clans have advanced vampires, you can include one copy of each version in your clan decks and overall get to see a merging in the opening draw without seriously unbalancing your crypt. Bye, Daneel

> But of all cards I want to see with an Advancement: > ALL SETITES FROM PRE-FINAL NIGHTS! Make them actually worth their > friggin' cost! All 8 caps MUST have All superior in-clans at the very > least! Nah, they'll never do it (all =>8 caps with in-clan superiors) and I'm glad they won't. *All* high caps with three in-clan disciplines at superior means a. a smaller amount of available "design points" to spend on out-of-clan disciplines, meaning less deck design options b. a smaller amount of available "design points" to spend on interesting special abilities, meaning the same c. a narrowed space for designing new vamps, meaning less new cards and diversity in general d. reinforcing the currently available "sure winning strategies", reducing actual enjoyment at tournaments ("oh yeah, Round Three and I got another Anneke Revolt deck as predator and/or Giovanni powerbleed as prey *sigh*"...) e. risk almost doubling minions ("oh, a new Ventrue with OBF, votes, +1 bleed and a special... Has Arika changed her hair? is it Arika advanced?") > And a few of them should have all their actions or certain > actions at +1 Stealth, like Serpentis actions, or Presence actions, or > at least Corruption actions. > Here's one > Kephamos, High Priest of Marrakech > Follower of Set, Group 2 > 8 Cap > SER OBF PRE DOM (or even just dom) > Untap Kephamos if he successfully plays Corruption. <MERGE> Kephamos > can burn a blood to get an additional +1 bleed when bleeding someone > who controls a vampire with a corruption counter. I.E., Kephamos becomes a Corruption and bleed machine. You can build a deck with 30 corruptions, 30 stealth cards and 30 Deflections out of him. I'm glad the design team won't take anything like that seriously. cheers, Fabio "Sooner", the_capuchin, NC for Brazil

(will respond to other post when I get time) In message <a23a105e.04021...@posting.google.com>, dan...@eposta.hu (Daneel) mumbled something about: >> perhaps i should be more specific. i'm not really interested in mono-vamp >> trick decks and their adv. merge ability. that already works, even before >> GoE was made. i just want to add them as a neat utilitarian tool with a >> greater chance of pulling it off. > >Well, here is my experience. I'm currently playing a Ventrue Antitribu >deck (naturally!) which uses one copy of Dominique and one copy of >Dominique, Advanced. Out of the first four I seldom get both vamps (no 58% chance of getting at least one of them in your opening crypt. 8% chance of getting both in your opening crypt. >pun). Out of 5-6 there is a decent chance. Out of 5 games I had both Fishing takes time and costs pool, remember. 15% chance of getting both in your first 5 vamps. 23% chance of getting both in your first 6. >of her in the initial draw of 4 vampires twice, had one of her but not >the other once (but I needed another minion, so I spent two turns >fishing, and she was the second, so I merged her instead, figuring 3 >pool and 12 transfers spent over three turns might as well give me 2 >votes if nothing else). The rest of the games I didn't see her at all. Then you were more than a little bit lucky, as you hit an 8% chance at a 40% rate (the 2 out of 5 times you got both in your opening draw). You also hit a 23% chance at a 20% rate (the time you got one but not the other, but you fished and got both in your first 6), and a 42% chance at a 40% rate (chance of getting neither in your opening crypt, which happened twice). Both of these are nominal. >Without much consideration I'd say that there is probably around 10% >chance to draw any two specific vampires in the opening draw. If you >move down new crypt cards, your chances of gettin the needed vam(s) >increase. But not by very much, and certainly not enough to make it reliable. See below for an improved analysis of reliability. >I'm pretty cool with a mechanic that allows you to beef up a character >once every 10 games. Since all (most) clans have advanced vampires, 10 games is three tournaments, assuming you make one final. If you're using only one copy of each, it's a waste of time to plan for it happening. It'll actually be slightly more than 1 in 10, because you'll go fishing and hit successfully in some of those games, but not all games are going to be appropriate for fishing, and there's no data extant that corresponds to "how often people fish for a new vamp". Rather than spout arbitrary numbers, it is reasonably safe to assume that the change from 8% that fishing would provide is not likely to bring it above 12%, which is still within the same deviation from 10%. >you can include one copy of each version in your clan decks and >overall get to see a merging in the opening draw without seriously >unbalancing your crypt. And this is a statement completely unsupported by the facts; even your OWN words say that you'll only hit 1 in 10 times. 1 in 10 is NOT "overall". These are the figures if you use 2 copies of each instead of one: 28% chance of getting at least one copy of each in your opening crypt. 42% chance of getting at least one copy of each in your first 5 vamps. 56% chance of getting at least one copy of each in your first 6 vamps. I like these numbers a lot better; and at the same time, you haven't compromised your crypt at all. However, I still have to point out that most of the time, you'll be fishing for a copy of the advanced, and fishing is expensive and takes time. While it can be a useful thing to do, it does cost 1 pool per fish, plus 1 to Advance the minion. So the best solution would clearly be to use 2x of each, and a couple Gift of Experience to reduce your odds of needing to fish in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I like the Advanced mechanic, but it's not quite as easy to use as just putting 1x normal, 1x advanced in a crypt. You do need to do a little bit of planning. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

> 58% chance of getting at least one of them in your opening crypt. > 8% chance of getting both in your opening crypt. Nice. I wasn't that wrong. > >pun). Out of 5-6 there is a decent chance. Out of 5 games I had both > > Fishing takes time and costs pool, remember. It does. Also, with two copies, you can have one in your opening draw and the other at the bottom of your crypt... So it is iffy at best. > 15% chance of getting both in your first 5 vamps. > 23% chance of getting both in your first 6. > > >of her in the initial draw of 4 vampires twice, had one of her but not > >the other once (but I needed another minion, so I spent two turns > >fishing, and she was the second, so I merged her instead, figuring 3 > >pool and 12 transfers spent over three turns might as well give me 2 > >votes if nothing else). The rest of the games I didn't see her at all. > > Then you were more than a little bit lucky, as you hit an 8% chance at a > 40% rate (the 2 out of 5 times you got both in your opening draw). > > You also hit a 23% chance at a 20% rate (the time you got one but not > the other, but you fished and got both in your first 6), and a 42% > chance at a 40% rate (chance of getting neither in your opening crypt, > which happened twice). Both of these are nominal. Well, I wouldn't use percentages on actual occurances. It just happened; it did at the cost of drawing other vampires. ;) (Sometimes I did not feel so lucky with both Dominiques.) > >Without much consideration I'd say that there is probably around 10% > >chance to draw any two specific vampires in the opening draw. If you > >move down new crypt cards, your chances of gettin the needed vam(s) > >increase. > > But not by very much, and certainly not enough to make it reliable. See > below for an improved analysis of reliability. > > >I'm pretty cool with a mechanic that allows you to beef up a character > >once every 10 games. Since all (most) clans have advanced vampires, > > 10 games is three tournaments, assuming you make one final. If you're > using only one copy of each, it's a waste of time to plan for it > happening. Well, I wasn't talking of cases when you need or rely on a vampire. If you want to do a Camarilla voting Assamite deck, You'll probably need more than 1 copy of Tegírius and 1 copy of Tegyrius, Advanced. I was referring to cases where the copies are similarly useful for your deck. For example, instead of using Dominique ×2 I switched to using one basic and one advanced, because I don't lose much (the advanced has a special too, which is sometimes more useful than the basic, though I generally prefer the basic), but gain the option of forging an advantage of a disadvantage (drawing two copies of the same vampire). Also, tournament play only takes up about 20% of my total gaming. I play once a week, and I attend tournaments about once every 1-2 months. I might play a deck 10 times and still not attend a tourney with it. ;) > It'll actually be slightly more than 1 in 10, because you'll go fishing > and hit successfully in some of those games, but not all games are going > to be appropriate for fishing, and there's no data extant that > corresponds to "how often people fish for a new vamp". Rather than > spout arbitrary numbers, it is reasonably safe to assume that the change > from 8% that fishing would provide is not likely to bring it above 12%, > which is still within the same deviation from 10%. > > >you can include one copy of each version in your clan decks and > >overall get to see a merging in the opening draw without seriously > >unbalancing your crypt. > > And this is a statement completely unsupported by the facts; even your > OWN words say that you'll only hit 1 in 10 times. 1 in 10 is NOT > "overall". Overall... Probably should have been more restrictive, like "Once in a while". I used it in the "considering everything it is possible" type of sense. ;) > These are the figures if you use 2 copies of each instead of one: > > 28% chance of getting at least one copy of each in your opening crypt. > 42% chance of getting at least one copy of each in your first 5 vamps. > 56% chance of getting at least one copy of each in your first 6 vamps. > > I like these numbers a lot better; and at the same time, you haven't > compromised your crypt at all. However, I still have to point out that > most of the time, you'll be fishing for a copy of the advanced, and > fishing is expensive and takes time. While it can be a useful thing to > do, it does cost 1 pool per fish, plus 1 to Advance the minion. So the > best solution would clearly be to use 2x of each, and a couple Gift of > Experience to reduce your odds of needing to fish in the first place. It all depends the role you want the vampires to play in your play. If the vampire is good, but there are other similarly good vampires, you can include one copy of each (a rather good option, but only useful if you don't want to rely on the guy(s). If you want to put emphasis on them, you could do 2× / 2×, giving you a total of four copies of the vmapire (best if both versions are central to your deck based on discipline spread, etc). If you absolutely need the guy you may do somewhat more. I'd advise againt much more though. My Tegyrius deck had 3 Old and 2 New, plus 3 Gifts. I usually merged him before Turn 5. > Don't get me wrong, I like the Advanced mechanic, but it's not quite as > easy to use as just putting 1x normal, 1x advanced in a crypt. You do > need to do a little bit of planning. If you really want to use the vampire as Merged. If, however, you have a general crypt, and you could well use two copies of the same vampire, you might as well use one basic and one advanced instead. Also, if you use one copy, adding the other might be a good idea "just in case". Not always though. Bye, Daneel

(Noal McDonald) wrote: > (Daneel) wrote: > > I'm curious whom you would like to see advanced, and why, and how the > > advancement card would look like. > > I'd love to see my favorite vampire get an advanced version. Although > he is powerful enough already, here's the card I'd issue: oops. forgot the merged ability. Uriah Winter [Advanced] Caitiff for pot Vampires controlled by your predator may take a +1 stealth action to change Uriah's clan. [MERGE] Vampires controlled by your predator bleed at +1. *ponders* LSJ, would that those two lines count as "abilities" for the purpose of Seeds of Corruption? I wouldn't think so, since it's not Uriah that gets to use them. If they do get cancelled by Seeds, I'd go with this Merged ability instead: [MERGE] Vampires controlled by your predator may take a +1 stealth action to place a Loyalty counter on Uriah. You may burn the Edge during your untap phase to remove a Loyalty counter from Uriah. If Uriah has any Loyalty counters, he does not change control during untap due to pool totals. Regards, Noal

>Uriah Winter [Advanced] >Caitiff >for pot >Vampires controlled by your predator may take a +1 stealth action to >change Uriah's clan. >[MERGE] Vampires controlled by your predator bleed at +1. > >*ponders* > >LSJ, would that those two lines count as "abilities" for the purpose >of Seeds of Corruption? I wouldn't think so, since it's not Uriah that >gets to use them. They would. Any non-trait, non-restriction would count as an ability that would be turned off by Seeds. Halcyan 2

Noal McDonald wrote: [For those just joining this thread, this is a discussion of a fictional card - there is no advanced Uriah Winter] > Uriah Winter [Advanced] > Caitiff > for pot > Vampires controlled by your predator may take a +1 stealth action to > change Uriah's clan. > [MERGE] Vampires controlled by your predator bleed at +1. > > *ponders* > > LSJ, would that those two lines count as "abilities" for the purpose > of Seeds of Corruption? I wouldn't think so, since it's not Uriah that > gets to use them. That's a very good point. Seeds of Corruption only prevents "the vampire with this card" from using his or her special. It doesn't prevent other vampires (or allies or Methuselahs) from using any special ability that his or her card text grants them. That is a REVERSAL of some previous Seeds rulings. And it will probably lead to a few more unintuitive results as well. Having Seeds on: Agaitas doesn't affect your ability to draw cards from your prey. Aisling won't allow younger Tremere to block her. Alan Sovereign doesn't affect your ability to place additional counters. Alexandra won't prevent you from tapping or untapping other Toreadors. Alonzo Guillen doesn't prevent you from burning the Edge to look. etc. and, notably for you, Noal: Uriah (the original, not the fictional card above) won't prevent your prey from taking control. And thus an overly-complicated situation becomes even more complicated. I'll put this on the RT list for review to see if simplifying errata is in order. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> That's a very good point. > > Seeds of Corruption only prevents "the vampire with this card" from using > his or her special. It doesn't prevent other vampires (or allies or > Methuselahs) from using any special ability that his or her card text > grants them. > > That is a REVERSAL of some previous Seeds rulings. And it will probably > lead to a few more unintuitive results as well. > > Having Seeds on: > Agaitas doesn't affect your ability to draw cards from your prey. > Aisling won't allow younger Tremere to block her. > Alan Sovereign doesn't affect your ability to place additional counters. > Alexandra won't prevent you from tapping or untapping other Toreadors. > Alonzo Guillen doesn't prevent you from burning the Edge to look. > > etc. > > and, notably for you, Noal: > Uriah (the original, not the fictional card above) won't prevent your prey > from taking control. > > And thus an overly-complicated situation becomes even more complicated. > > I'll put this on the RT list for review to see if simplifying errata > is in order. HOLY!!! *cough* Talk about complication. Couldn't have you just banned PTO or something? ;) Seriously, I'm not sure this is the best idea. Not that I would want to question a ruling (okay, I would, but not this one), but Seeds has always been more of a theoretical debate, because of the high cost of the card and other factors. Keeping it simple might avoid an avalanche of related questions (like, can my vampire take 5 damage from a Canine Horded Eye of Hazimel under the influence of dr... *cough* Drawing out the Beast). But yeah, Seeds does say "this vampire". Question is, how can a Methuselah use a vampire's ability if that vampire cannot use it (it feels kind of "right" that the vampire must be used as an intermediary for the ability to work, even if card text does seem to indicate otherwise). Bye, Daneel

>Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement >cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? First thought was any useless vampire, but there are problems with that. Advanced version may be so much better that you'd still never play with the basic version. Merged may be so weak that you'd never play with either. Better would have been to design the vampires not to suck in the first place. I sort of see no reason to have advanced vampires. However, here's an idea for something that would overcome some obstacles I've run into: Dragos (Advanced) Tzimisce Cap = 7 Sabbat ANI, AUS, for, pot, pro, vic [merge]Disciplineless combat cards cost your vampires one less blood to play. The merged ability may make no sense, but it's funny.

> Nah, they'll never do it (all =>8 caps with in-clan superiors) and > I'm glad they won't. *All* high caps with three in-clan disciplines at > superior means > a. a smaller amount of available "design points" to spend on > out-of-clan disciplines, meaning less deck design options > b. a smaller amount of available "design points" to spend on > interesting > special abilities, meaning the same > c. a narrowed space for designing new vamps, meaning less new cards > and diversity in general > d. reinforcing the currently available "sure winning strategies", > reducing > actual enjoyment at tournaments But most of the new 8 caps from Anarchs, Cam, BH, and even up til Black hand have had it. It's the vamps from DS and AH (AH especially) that got shafted on the point spread. All the things you've mentioned above are already in effect. > I.E., Kephamos becomes a Corruption and bleed machine. You can build a > deck with 30 corruptions, 30 stealth cards and 30 Deflections out of > him. Not really. First, you have to get him merged. Second, he can only corrupt one vamp a turn. Sure, that would be enough to get him that +1, but that leaves out room for combat defence, vote defence, action defence. Also, no room for wakes so he can't bloody use the deflections... etcetcetc. Sure, he'd still be a corruption and bleed machine, but there are plenty enough combat machines out there now (the new Giovanni, Juggler, merged Lazarus). He sucks as is. The reason why the design team made him so is because they saw a danger in him with stealth/bleed. Yet now there are even worse ones out there. And Setites are still renowned for their inability to come up with intercept, a major weakness of Setite decks. > I'm glad the design team won't take anything like that seriously. Maybe it could do with a mellowing out. He has to pay a blood to untap or burn a blood to get that +1 stealth, or even more conditional (+1 bleed if your prey has a Ventrue with a corruption counter). But the AH Setites are still the worst of the entire lot of vamps to come out for point spread. Compare him to Emerson Bridges pot PRE FOR DOM Prince Keph, dom pre obf SER 2 votes, +1 bleed. Sure he has the same amount of votes, but not a title. Only one card, Free States Rant is what that's good for (oh yeah, Reinforcments and National Guard Support...). He can't use traditions. But let's just say they're equal when they're not. Is +1 bleed REALLY worth dropping 2 disciplines from Superior to base? Now let's go to something recent: Victorine Lafourcade, tha PRE FOR DOM, Prince Atlanta, burn edge to cancel a bleed from a <5 vamp, optional press each combat. Hot damn! Now there is a point spread! Why? Because the design has changed. She's got two awesome specials over Emerson. An optional press for a vamp with tha is just a wonderful thang. But it completely overshadows Kephamos. Now, I'm not saying every vamp has to be equal, but some changes to equate the change in design to previous vampires would be at least a wee bit more positive to the game. > cheers, > > Fabio "Sooner", the_capuchin, NC for Brazil Jamie The Seppo Prince of Gawler

On 22 Feb 2004 23:02:54 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] here comes a channeling the beast/pulled fangs/tortured confession deck! oh wait, even for free, tortured confession would suck. [ quoted text not captured ]

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20040222180254...@mb-m03.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, I can see where that came from... ;) Even though yuo do not need really a MERGE ability. Maybe something minor. Like +1 strength... ;-) Bye, Daneel

<snipped> > That's a very good point. > > Seeds of Corruption only prevents "the vampire with this card" from using > his or her special. It doesn't prevent other vampires (or allies or > Methuselahs) from using any special ability that his or her card text > grants them. > > That is a REVERSAL of some previous Seeds rulings. And it will probably > lead to a few more unintuitive results as well. > > Having Seeds on: > Agaitas doesn't affect your ability to draw cards from your prey. > Aisling won't allow younger Tremere to block her. > Alan Sovereign doesn't affect your ability to place additional counters. > Alexandra won't prevent you from tapping or untapping other Toreadors. > Alonzo Guillen doesn't prevent you from burning the Edge to look. > > etc. > > and, notably for you, Noal: > Uriah (the original, not the fictional card above) won't prevent your prey > from taking control. > > And thus an overly-complicated situation becomes even more complicated. > > I'll put this on the RT list for review to see if simplifying errata > is in order. > Does it mean that a seeds on arika or leandro only shuts dow the +2 bleed? As both specials are not active abilities, and targets your prey /other players (just like agaitas) ? And some might even argue that the +2 bleed only affects the player you are bleeding. Same for bonuses to strenght. This really reduces drastically the effect of this card, which otoh didn't see much use. So seeds now only nullifies active abilities, such as theo's rush or villon's steal 2 blood. Another deck to the scrap box. Tom

LSJ wrote: > Seeds of Corruption only prevents "the vampire with this card" from using > his or her special. It doesn't prevent other vampires (or allies or > Methuselahs) from using any special ability that his or her card text > grants them. another vampire to add to the list in the previous post is Arika: 'If Arika is ready during your prey's untap phase, your prey chooses which locations he or she keeps in play. For each location he or she controls, your prey burns 1 pool or burns the location.' presumably this will still be in effect under SoC.

I would like to see Advanced Tara the Hollow One.

When I first started to play Jyhad I though Aggripina was a very good vampire as she was the smallest that could do cloak the gathering on my Ventrue princes. So for old times sake here goes... :=) Aggripina, Advanced Group 1 Nosferatu Capacity 5 Advanced, Camarilla, POT OBF, may pay 1 blood to dodge as a strike once per combat [MERGE]: +1 stealth "Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:a23a105e.04021...@posting.google.com... > Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement > cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? > > It seems that the Advancement cards we've seen so far usually took a > solid to powerful vampire and made them slightly better by giving the > advancement option. It is generally fine if both cards are good for a > deck - including multiple copies can now give you a slight advantage. > Like instead of 2× Quentin King III, you can use 1× basic and 1× > advanced (if the title does not really matter for the deck). > > I'm curious whom you would like to see advanced, and why, and how the > advancement card would look like. > > Just for the kicks I did some brainstorming, and made up a few > advancement cards that would be more like a "beefing-up" of rarely > seen crypt cards - like Lazarus (included for reference). If you feel > like it, scroll down to "Appendix" for references of what I came up > with (I must confess, my list is more a toying with concepts than a > wishlist). You may comment on my crypt cards if you like, but what I'm > really interested in is what the title of the post says. > > Whom would you like to see Advanced? ;) > > Bye, > > Daneel > > ------ > > Appendix: Sample Advancement cards > > Appolonius, Advanced > Group 1 > Brujah > Capacity 10 > CEL PRE for pot > Advanced, Camarilla Primogen: +1 Strength. Appolonious gets an > optional Maneuver each combat. [MERGE]: Appolonious does not have to > burn blood to play combat cards. > > Quinton McDonnel, Advanced > Group 1 > Gangrel > Capacity 8 > ani cel FOR pro > Advanced, Independent: Quinton burns 1 less blood when playing cards > that require Fortitude. Once each round of combat, he may burn a blood > to treat aggravated damage as normal for the remainder of the current > round. [MERGE]: Anarch Baron of Glasgow > > Damaskenos, Herald of Leandro, Advanced > Group 2 > Malkavian > Capacity 6 > DEM DOM aus cel pot > Advanced, Camarilla: As long as he does not have a title, any Follower > of Set may enter combat with Damaskenos as a (D) action. [Merge]: > Prince of Cairo > > Lucretia, Cess Queen, Advanced > Group 1 > Nosferatu > Capacity 10 > ANI OBF aus cel for pot > Advanced, Camarilla Primogen: When Lucretia is acting, your hand is 1 > card larger. If she succesfully performs an action, you may draw a > card. [MERGE]: Cards that require Obfuscate cost Lucretia 1 less blood > to play. > > Radeyah, Advanced > Group 2 > Toreador > Capacity 6 > CEL obf pot pre > Advanced, Camarilla. [MERGE]: Blood Hunts cannot be called on Radeyah. > > Lazarus, Advanced > Group 1 > Tremere > Capacity 9 > AUS DOM THA cel pot > Advanced, Camarilla Primogen: Lazarus gets one optional maneuver each > combat. [MERGE]: Once each combat, Lazarus may burn 1 blood to get one > press, only usable to continue combat. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Whom would you like to see Advanced? ;) Pug, Advanced Group 3 Brujah Capicity 8 POT CEL FOR pre Anarch, Baron of San Diego (or another suitable city) Advanced, +1 Strength Richter, Advanced Group 2 Brujah Anti Capicity 8 POT CEL FOR pre Anarch, Richter gets an optional press each combat Advanced, Baron of Del Mar (or another suitable city) Maxwell, Advanced Group 3 Brujah Capicity 9 POT CEL FOR PRE PRO Anarch, 3 votes Advanced, Maxwell may pay one blood to enter combat with any vampire as a D action. What do you think? Can you tell what kind of deck I want to make? ;o) Cheers, Howard

LSJ wrote: > Noal McDonald wrote: > [For those just joining this thread, this is a discussion of a fictional > card - there is no advanced Uriah Winter] > > Uriah Winter [Advanced] > > Caitiff > > for pot > > Vampires controlled by your predator may take a +1 stealth action to > > change Uriah's clan. > > [MERGE] Vampires controlled by your predator bleed at +1. > > > > *ponders* > > > > LSJ, would that those two lines count as "abilities" for the purpose > > of Seeds of Corruption? I wouldn't think so, since it's not Uriah that > > gets to use them. > > That's a very good point. ...feeling proud. > and, notably for you, Noal: > Uriah (the original, not the fictional card above) won't prevent your prey > from taking control. ...feeling stupid. D'oh!!! Me and my big mouth. :-) To be honest, I'm not sure if I even have a Uriah Winter deck assembled any more. > And thus an overly-complicated situation becomes even more complicated. > > I'll put this on the RT list for review to see if simplifying errata > is in order. Glad to do my part! :-) If I may suggest a simpler method would be to suggest that Seeds cancel any text beyond Sect & Titles. It would help some vampires, and hurt others. But it should make the issue more simple as well as give Seeds more flexibility. (And, notably, bring back the viability of Uriah Winter decks.) Btw, if you return sanity to Seeds, how much would I have to bribe you to get you to release a Set 3 vampire with the same ability? Regards, Noal

(Daneel) wrote: > Seriously, I'm not sure this is the best idea. Not that I would want > to question a ruling (okay, I would, but not this one), but Seeds has > always been more of a theoretical debate, because of the high cost of > the card and other factors. You're new. Google for "Noal Uriah Seeds." Seeds has never been just a theoretical debate. I've built several decks around pushing Uriah Winter to my prey and using Seeds to nail him in place. See "Trojan Horse." > But yeah, Seeds does say "this vampire". Question is, how can a > Methuselah use a vampire's ability if that vampire cannot use it (it > feels kind of "right" that the vampire must be used as an intermediary > for the ability to work, even if card text does seem to indicate > otherwise). Feelings have nothing to do with rulings. Card text is the final arbiter in all things. If card text is not exact enough to produce the desirable result, then it is the card text that should be changed, not the result. Regards, Noal

Been mulling this over a bit... The best wording I came up with for Seeds that seems to have the original intent in mind (if I'm interpreting that intent correctly) is something like "while SoC is on this vampire, treat their text box blank (except sect/title/trait text)". Obviously needs to be cleaned up a bit, but that'd certainly put Uriah firmly in the "stuck on prey" section. -- -Snapcase

Daneel expounded: > Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement > cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? Donal O'Connor (8, maybe CEL POT dom) ADV: Prince can rush an anarch. OR ADV: Prince can take an action to search your library for a leather Jacket and equip it at +1 Stealth. Merged: During combat Donal may take a strike to search your library for a Molotov Cocktail and equip it. Now when can we expect to see Leather Coat? (jackets just aren't long enough to conceal my deer rifles ;)

I forgot one... Miguel Santo Domingo Group 3 Brujah Anti Capicity 8 POT FOR PRE cel Advanced: Miguel can burn 1 for an addition strike during each round. Merged: +1 Strength Any comments?? Cheers, Howard

Didnt read many of the abbove posts but i want advanced Muaziz ! She my all time favorite vamp :P Or a advanced Blythe , another all time favorite

cowf...@hotmail.com (cowfields) wrote in message news:<1a6c91db.04022...@posting.google.com>... > Didnt read many of the abbove posts but i want advanced Muaziz ! She > my all time favorite vamp :P > > Or a advanced Blythe , another all time favorite You could use the origal printing of Blythe and say that is the advanced version ;)

dan...@eposta.hu (Daneel) wrote in message news:<a23a105e.04021...@posting.google.com>... > Do you have any ideas which crypt cards should recieve Advancement > cards? Whom would you like to see advanced? I'm not sure someone hasn't mentioned them already: Advanced Aabbt. (Or Fida'i, for the Assamite lovers). -- Tobias Deventer