Card Text:
Name: Sanguine Instruction[BL]
Cardtype: Action
Capacity: +1
Requires a ready vampire. +1 stealth action.
Choose a Discipline this vampire has at superior. Put this card on a
ready vampire of the same clan as this acting vampire. The vampire
with this card has the normal level of the chosen Discipline. If the
vampire already had the Discipline, he or she now has the superior
level of that Discipline. The vampire's capacity increase's by 1; the
vampire is one generation older. Cannot be played on a vampire with
the superior version of the Discipline.
Is it just me or would this card be a whole lot more useful if they
had stricken the "vampire of the same clan" bit from the card and
given us a way to teach those normal vamps some of those scare
disciplines. I can understand not wanting to put out mastercards for
temporis, valeren, etc.. but there needs to be a way to increase the
number of vampires in play that can use the cards that your're
holding. (And I realize that you can clan impersonate then do it but
that seems a little bit unweildy).
Would removing that text have made the card too powerful?
-John
> Is it just me or would this card be a whole lot more useful if they
> had stricken the "vampire of the same clan" bit from the card and
> given us a way to teach those normal vamps some of those scare
> disciplines. I can understand not wanting to put out mastercards for
> temporis, valeren, etc.. but there needs to be a way to increase the
> number of vampires in play that can use the cards that your're
> holding. (And I realize that you can clan impersonate then do it but
> that seems a little bit unweildy).
>
> Would removing that text have made the card too powerful?
In that case, a thing like "a vampire of the same clan, except if the acting
vampire is scarce" would have made it less powerful, but still lots more
useful. I can understand that the conceptors of the game wouldn't like this
card to replace totally the Master disciplines, hence the limitation, but it
still takes an action and 1 blood, so it's not exactly "free". And its
primary goal was supposedly exactly what you stated, help the playbility of
"exotic" disciplines, especially the scarce ones.
Another way of limitating it would have been "only usable by a Bloodline ("a
scarce vampire" would make it nearly useless).
Any errata on the way ?
--
Yours,
Orpheus, Prince of Marseille
http://no.exit.free.fr (onlive novel)
http://cypheranima.free.fr (goth band)
news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone
audio...@yahoogroups.com
Orpheus wrote:
> Any errata on the way ?
Is it too powerful?
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
> Orpheus wrote:
> > Any errata on the way ?
>
> Is it too powerful?
He he, I love your humor, LSJ. :-)
No, I agree with John, it is not useful enough, at least it doesn't do what
it was supposed to (I think) : make more accessible the "exotic"
disciplines, and especially help mixing the scarce vampires with other clans
; and the Clan Impersonation thing requires too many cards for it to rely a
deck upon, and too many actions that could be better used.
IMHO, Bloodlines was quite an interesting release, even if it has a few
weaknesses and obviously isn't stand-alone or beginner-oriented ; but one of
its failures(still my opinion) is the scarcity thin, as the scarce vampires
are good, but not enough to make up for their scarcity (the Nagaraja, not
having any discipline exclusively their own, are easier to mix but their
scarcity is in no way compensated by their power).
Comments anyone ?
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:a11tqo$a0b$1...@wanadoo.fr...
> > Orpheus wrote:
> > > Any errata on the way ?
> >
> > Is it too powerful?
>
> He he, I love your humor, LSJ. :-)
>
> No, I agree with John, it is not useful enough, at least it doesn't do
what
> it was supposed to (I think) : make more accessible the "exotic"
> disciplines, and especially help mixing the scarce vampires with other
clans
> ; and the Clan Impersonation thing requires too many cards for it to rely
a
> deck upon, and too many actions that could be better used.
>
> IMHO, Bloodlines was quite an interesting release, even if it has a few
> weaknesses and obviously isn't stand-alone or beginner-oriented ; but one
of
> its failures(still my opinion) is the scarcity thin, as the scarce
vampires
> are good, but not enough to make up for their scarcity (the Nagaraja, not
> having any discipline exclusively their own, are easier to mix but their
> scarcity is in no way compensated by their power).
>
> Comments anyone ?
>
I would like to say that with Ingrid Russo and Chandler Hungerford you can
rapidly equip an army of protean weenies with Superior Protean and inferior
Dominate if you remove the clan clause. That would be all sorts of broken.
So where do you go from here?
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
In message <291e4298.02010...@posting.google.com>,
verg...@hotmail.com (John) mumbled something about:
>Would removing that text have made the card too powerful?
Once per turn, Didi Meyers teaches all your OBF weenies Dominate.
Once per turn, Gideon Fontaine upgrades all your PRE weenies with
superior Presence.
Once per turn, Chandler Hungerford teaches all your POT weenies Protean.
Once per turn, Jimmy Dunn teaches all your POT/CEL weenies one OR the
other, as appropriate.
The conclusions to be drawn are left as an exercise for the student.
--
"Now remember, class; rape BEFORE you pillage."
> I would like to say that with Ingrid Russo and Chandler Hungerford you can
> rapidly equip an army of protean weenies with Superior Protean and
inferior
> Dominate if you remove the clan clause. That would be all sorts of
broken.
Which is why I said "do not remove the Clan clause", at least not completely
; but something has to be done for scarce vampires.
And : really, do you think a strategy such as the one you described could do
anything ? It does take time, and cards, to Sanguine Instruct, and in the
meanwhile your prey and predator can do some real stuff...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I think the card is fine as it is. Any of the scarce bloodlines will
often be making use of clan impersonation anyway, just to avoid the
scarce penalty. I have been using it a lot in the non-scarce
bloodlines as well, just to bring a lot of the littler guys up to
superior in their unique discipine. I also love its flexibility,
while I have been including it with a certain discipline in mind I
often find myself needing to use it for another discipline more. It
is also great for those decks where actions are cheap. You use it in
some weenie rush deck or whatnot, use master disciplines to give
someone superior, then use Instruction to spread the word.
I'll grant that the card can't just be used to replace mater
disciplines, however it can do wonders when used in conjuction. Take,
for example, typical Aabt kindred deck. It would be an action
allowing you to raise the capacity of one of your Aabt so it can
enchant kindred the rest. That could fairly quickly spiral into a lot
of Aabt.
I definitely don't think the card needs a boost in usefulness.
Wisefool
Mercuriel
> >Would removing that text have made the card too powerful?
> Once per turn, Didi Meyers teaches all your OBF weenies Dominate.
[snip]
> The conclusions to be drawn are left as an exercise for the student.
*Once per turn* <per minion>.
Also, using SI in such a manner creates problems unto itself. That's alot
of actions you are taking to hand out disciplines. Plus, those actions could
very well be blocked. I will grant you that blocking will be easier in some
situations than others, but the potential is there. And what happens when
you jam on SI? Or don't get them at all? It seems that it's too fragile a
strategy to actually be _abused_ in this manner.
Sorrow
---
"Just once I'd like a childhood memory I don't have to repress."
- Malcolm
> And : really, do you think a strategy such as the one you described could
do
> anything ? It does take time, and cards, to Sanguine Instruct, and in the
> meanwhile your prey and predator can do some real stuff...
>
> --
Please tell me that you are joking.
Turn one:
Chandler Hungerford and Igo the Hungry are influence out.
Turn Two
Master phase: I put a Dominate skill card on Igo.
Minion Phase
Chandler Hungerford instructs Igo in Protean.
Igo bleeds for 3 forms of mists any blocker (Scouting and Threats)
Influence out Ingrid Russo
Turn Three
Master Phase
Blood Doll on Igo
Igo instructs Igrid in Protean
Chandler instructs Ingrid in Protean
Ingrid bleeds for six at stealth and forms of mists any blocker
Influence out Huang
Turn Four
Dominate Skill card on Huang
Instruct Huang in Protean with Chandler
Ingrid bleeds for six at stealth and forms of mists any blocker (Govern and
Conditioning)
Igo bleeds for 4 forms of mists any blocker (Scouting and Conditioning)
Huange bleeds for 3 forms of mists any blocker (Scouting and Threats)
Influence out Sadie.
That is a bleed for 22 in four turns with bounce or S:CE denial being the
only defence on turn four.
Next turn
Hello! Welcome to broken land. Please check your soul at the door.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>Is it just me or would this card be a whole lot more useful if they
>had stricken the "vampire of the same clan" bit from the card and
>given us a way to teach those normal vamps some of those scare
>disciplines. I can understand not wanting to put out mastercards for
>temporis, valeren, etc.. but there needs to be a way to increase the
>number of vampires in play that can use the cards that your're
>holding. (And I realize that you can clan impersonate then do it but
>that seems a little bit unweildy).
>
>Would removing that text have made the card too powerful?
>
I think the card is fine as it is (and I love how it is already). There are two
ways to view this card: #1. A variation of Discipline cards for the new
Bloodlines disciplines, #2. An alternate way of gaining conventional
disciplines (replacing some Master cards).
In the first case, it does a good job. Bloodlines disciplines shouldn't be that
easily available. It is possible to get them, but it does require some effort
(as you have noted). Anyway, if you remove the "same clan" thing, it becomes
too easy to gain rare disciplines and I don't want to see every other deck
chocked full of Temporis for Rewind Time or Obeah for Renewed Vigor. Yes, using
Clan Impersonate is "unwieldy" but it's supposed to be that way (and should be
that way).
In addition, the card is already extremely powerful (even with the clan
restriction) because it can supplement discipline cards. As Xian put it,
Cardano can teach Aisling some fortitude while Aisling teaches Cardano big eye.
It creates a great deal of flexibility because oftentimes I can swap out, say
some Thaumaturgy discipline cards, and just use Sanguine Instruction instead.
And if you play with several older vampires (with many superior disciplines),
the flexibility is already worth it. Would you like Etrius to teach you Auspex,
Dominate, Obfuscate, or Thaumaturgy? And then Rebekka can teach you Presence.
And Cardano Fortitude. Etc. Yeah it may cost you an action, but it saves you a
master phase and more than makes up in flexibility.
Halcyan 2
In message <cB0Z7.39$jd.1...@newshog.newsread.com>,
"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about:
>> >Would removing that text have made the card too powerful?
>> Once per turn, Didi Meyers teaches all your OBF weenies Dominate.>[snip]>> The conclusions to be drawn are left as an exercise for the student.>
>*Once per turn* <per minion>.
Well, yes, per minion. Additional minions with superior in the
discipline in question can be used to make it more often than once per
turn. I'm assuming one teacher, and a bunch of bleeders.
Using minions who already possess the chosen discipline at inferior
greatly speeds the process, of course.
>Also, using SI in such a manner creates problems unto itself. That's alot
>of actions you are taking to hand out disciplines. Plus, those actions could
Which doesn't matter since you're using weenies -- you have plenty of
actions to spare.
>very well be blocked. I will grant you that blocking will be easier in some
(shrug) Agrippina teaches a DOM weenie OBF every turn.
Good luck blocking her. Any stealth that she doesn't use is
conveniently available to be tacked onto bleeds. Include plenty of DOM
skill cards to upgrade your weenies and make full use of Bonding,
Threats, and even Scouting Mission (cards costing blood are a wrong
answer in this deck), and eventually Agrippina herself will even have
Dominate through an obf/DOM weenie teaching it back to her.
It'd start out slightly slower than stock OBF/DOM S&B, but be much more
robust due to the increased weenie factor -- lots more bleeders make
Deflection less worthwhile and Rush less effective.
>situations than others, but the potential is there. And what happens when
>you jam on SI? Or don't get them at all? It seems that it's too fragile a
Then everyone teaches someone something for awhile until you no longer
are jammed on SI. If you include 12+ SI in the deck, you reduce the
probability of "never getting them" to insignificant.
>strategy to actually be _abused_ in this manner.
It only takes one example of abuse to qualify as abusable. But I
wouldn't categorize it as very fragile at all.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> No, I agree with John, it is not useful enough, at least it doesn't do what
> it was supposed to (I think) : make more accessible the "exotic"
> disciplines, and especially help mixing the scarce vampires with other clans
> ; and the Clan Impersonation thing requires too many cards for it to rely a
> deck upon, and too many actions that could be better used.
That may not have been what the card was designed for. There are
several vampires who have their clan's new discipline at inferior.
Perhaps the card was put there so that we can bring those vampires up
to superior. I know I would like to have more of my Samedi with
superior Thanatosis. Sanguine Instruction allows me to do that.
Besides, I've seen numerous decks use Salubri in the crypt, and the
fact that none of the other vampires have Obeah hasn't hurt those
decks a bit. Granted, right now, we're just seeing Salubri used for
the Renewed Vigor OBE effect, but many decks are packing large
quantities of the card, and the scarcity of the Salubri doesn't seem
to be hurting them one bit.
> IMHO, Bloodlines was quite an interesting release, even if it has a few
> weaknesses and obviously isn't stand-alone or beginner-oriented ; but one of
> its failures(still my opinion) is the scarcity thin, as the scarce vampires
> are good, but not enough to make up for their scarcity (the Nagaraja, not
> having any discipline exclusively their own, are easier to mix but their
> scarcity is in no way compensated by their power).
Hmm...unlimited actions that emulate Revelations at aus, the ability
to have a hand size of fifteen. No, these vampires didn't need to be
limited at all.
I've come to the conclusion about scarcity that I came to about
Infernal -- the limitation needed to be there to balance the vampires.
You're getting a lot more than you should for the capacity you're
paying.
Fanboy
"X_Zealot" <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<uo1Z7.155966$BX4.9...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>...
> > And : really, do you think a strategy such as the one you described could
> do
> > anything ? It does take time, and cards, to Sanguine Instruct, and in the
> > meanwhile your prey and predator can do some real stuff...
> >
> > --
>
> Please tell me that you are joking.
>> {snip long useless combo}>
> That is a bleed for 22 in four turns with bounce or S:CE denial being the
> only defence on turn four.
>> Hello! Welcome to broken land. Please check your soul at the door.
>
Please tell me *you* are joking. Sanguine Instruction would indeed be
a very strong card if it didn't require the same clan (and it doesn't
need to lose the restriction), but it would hardly be as broken as you
think. And if it were broken, I don't think giving Protean to a 9 cap
(who already has Protean) is really the way to prove it. 22 bleed in
four turns with bounce being the only defense is pretty much standard
fair for a Malk S&B. Assuming you get the perfect combos (which is
what you're doing for your strange example above), you've got at least
5 bleed 2nd turn (Govern + Conditioning), 10 bleed 3rd turn (Scouting
+ Threats by first vamp, Govern + Command of the Beast + Conditioning
by second vamp), and anywhere from 10-20 4th turn. And all you need
is some Obfuscate on them. Form of Mist is really no worse than
Faceless Night, because an Obfuscate deck will always out stealth you
anyway, and you can't prevent a Faceless Night with Immortal Grapple.
"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:5287ede4.02010...@posting.google.com...
[Norm wrote]
> > Hello! Welcome to broken land. Please check your soul at the door.
Heh. Broken land. Soul. :)
> Please tell me *you* are joking. Sanguine Instruction would indeed be
> a very strong card if it didn't require the same clan (and it doesn't
> need to lose the restriction), but it would hardly be as broken as you
Yeah. It would be incredibly strong without the clan requirement. Perhaps
not broken, but incredibly strong. It provides an impetus to play
single-clan decks (or Clan Impersonate), which I think is probably "a good
thing" (tm). Mostly for flavor purposes, but it can't hurt.
> think. And if it were broken, I don't think giving Protean to a 9 cap
> (who already has Protean) is really the way to prove it. 22 bleed in
Chris, you're thinking Ingrid Rossler, the 9-cap Prince. Norm is thinking
Ingrid Russo, the 4 cap !Ventrue with DOM for.
Still, it the minions are cheaper than your standard Malk S&B, thus making
it marginally quicker.
Xian
Xian
Okay, I see the point. Leaving off that "same" clan bit obviously in
most people's opinion would make it too powerful.
But my original thought that brought about my post was how to make the
scarce disciplines (temporis, obeah - scarce by virtue of only scarce
vampires possessing them) a little more playable without being too
playable.
So if the answer lies not in Sanguine instruction (because I'm sure
that I can find something better to do with three extra pool then
spend it on a vampire that can be burned, mutilated, etc without
warning), then I guess we're stuck waiting for something like a
master/discipline card for those disciplines, perhaps that requires a
scare vampire with the discipline to play. (Using scarce rather than
the clan to avoid clan impersonation problems).
Opinions?
-John
In message <a121vf$f5d$1...@wanadoo.fr>, Orpheus <orph...@wanadoo.fr>
writes:
>Which is why I said "do not remove the Clan clause", at least not completely
>; but something has to be done for scarce vampires.
Why? Which Scarce vampires do you feel are unnecessarily weak
currently?
--
James Coupe You remind me of the babe. What babe?
PGP 0x5D623D5D The babe with the power. What power?
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Power of voodoo. Who do?
13D7E668C3695D623D5D You do. Do what? Remind me of the babe.
In message <f99d61c5.0201...@posting.google.com>, The Fanboy
<texas...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> IMHO, Bloodlines was quite an interesting release, even if it has a few
>> weaknesses and obviously isn't stand-alone or beginner-oriented ; but one of
>> its failures(still my opinion) is the scarcity thin, as the scarce vampires
>> are good, but not enough to make up for their scarcity (the Nagaraja, not
>> having any discipline exclusively their own, are easier to mix but their
>> scarcity is in no way compensated by their power).>
>Hmm...unlimited actions that emulate Revelations at aus, the ability
>to have a hand size of fifteen. No, these vampires didn't need to be
>limited at all.
Point of pedantry: the 'unlimited' actions would be limited by No Repeat
Actions. (Thank god.)
[ quoted text not captured ]
>No, I agree with John, it is not useful enough, at least it doesn't do what
>it was supposed to (I think) : make more accessible the "exotic"
>disciplines, and especially help mixing the scarce vampires with other clans
>; and the Clan Impersonation thing requires too many cards for it to rely a
>deck upon, and too many actions that could be better used.
My sense of its purpose is to give the superior of disciplines to other members
of the bloodline.
My primary issue with it is that it's far more useful to vampires who can untap
during the turn, primarily all of the vampires with Fortitude, because it's an
action.
But, anyway, it's neither particularly good nor particularly bad, and it is one
of the few ways to spread/upgrade an exotic discipline while still having uses
in decks playing more conventional disciplines, so I don't have a lot of issue
with it.
In message <20020103220351...@mb-fu.aol.com>, Curevei
<cur...@aol.com> writes:
>>No, I agree with John, it is not useful enough, at least it doesn't do what
>>it was supposed to (I think) : make more accessible the "exotic"
>>disciplines, and especially help mixing the scarce vampires with other clans
>>; and the Clan Impersonation thing requires too many cards for it to rely a
>>deck upon, and too many actions that could be better used.>
>My sense of its purpose is to give the superior of disciplines to other members
>of the bloodline.
The back-story plotting and initial reason for inclusion in Bloodlines,
perhaps.
Its "purpose" is more murky, and since it is clearly useful to slightly
extra-ordinary decks (decks using the common fourth "in-clan"
discipline, for example), it seems that it's also been clearly balanced
for use in other decks.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>But my original thought that brought about my post was how to make the
>scarce disciplines (temporis, obeah - scarce by virtue of only scarce
>vampires possessing them) a little more playable without being too
>playable.
>
>So if the answer lies not in Sanguine instruction (because I'm sure
>that I can find something better to do with three extra pool then
>spend it on a vampire that can be burned, mutilated, etc without
>warning), then I guess we're stuck waiting for something like a
>master/discipline card for those disciplines, perhaps that requires a
>scare vampire with the discipline to play. (Using scarce rather than
>the clan to avoid clan impersonation problems).
>
>Opinions?
We've already discussed on the newsgroup various ways to use/gain rare
disciplines. Besides Clan Impersonation + Sanguine Instruction (and Feral
Spirit), there's always Ian Forestal, Infernal Pact, and Infernal Familiar
(which are hard to get but possible). And all sorts of tricks with Vial of
Elder Vitae are possible as well (i.e. use two Vials to gain superior Temporis
and then use Sanguine Instruction to teach it).
Halcyan 2
Try this
> Please tell me that you are joking.
>
> Turn one:
> Chandler Hungerford and Igo the Hungry are influence out.
I play parthanon.(1 card, 0 actions)
vs [0 cards, 0 actions, 0 pool]
> Turn Two
> Master phase: I put a Dominate skill card on Igo.
> Minion Phase
> Chandler Hungerford instructs Igo in Protean.
> Igo bleeds for 3 forms of mists any blocker (Scouting and Threats)
> Influence out Ingrid Russo
I put a dominate skill card on both chandler AND igo, both bleed with
govern(5 cards, 2 actions, -6 pool)
vs [4 cards, 2 actions, -3 pool]
> Turn Three
> Master Phase
> Blood Doll on Igo
> Igo instructs Igrid in Protean
> Chandler instructs Ingrid in Protean
> Ingrid bleeds for six at stealth and forms of mists any blocker
> Influence out Huang
blood doll igo, protean skill on ingrid, all 3 bleed with govern (10 cards,
5 actions, -15 pool)
vs [9 cards, 5 actions, -9 pool]
> Turn Four
> Dominate Skill card on Huang
> Instruct Huang in Protean with Chandler
> Ingrid bleeds for six at stealth and forms of mists any blocker (Govern
and
> Conditioning)
> Igo bleeds for 4 forms of mists any blocker (Scouting and Conditioning)
> Huange bleeds for 3 forms of mists any blocker (Scouting and Threats)
dominate+protean skill on huang, all bleed with govern (16 cards, 9
actions, -27 pool)
vs (17 cards, 9 actions, -22 pool)
> Influence out Sadie.
>
> That is a bleed for 22 in four turns with bounce or S:CE denial being the
> only defence on turn four.
Using the same number of actions, and 1 less card I did 5 more pool damage
then you?
If I assume a single conditioning, thats 8 more pool, at the same number of
cards, same number of actions, and I can just as well say "i'll form of mist
everything by." I think that without clan restrictions, people would waste
alot of actions giving disciplines to their vampires and not killing their
preys like they are supposed to.
> Hello! Welcome to broken land. Please check your soul at the door.
Hello, welcome to the real world. Please check your strategy at the door.
--
Aaron
The Nosferatu Stuff
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote:
> In addition, the card is already extremely powerful (even with the clan
> restriction) because it can supplement discipline cards. As Xian put it,> the flexibility is already worth it. Would you like Etrius to teach you
Auspex,
Wow, that is exactly what I want to do with an 11 cap Inner Circle member
Tremere. Make sure Mustafa gets his inferior Obfuscate. I mean, eventually
it will be worth it right? Paying more then 1/3 of your pool to have a
discipline making machine! Sweet, then I can save all those master slots
for really important stuff, like blood dolls to make up some of the cost of
the giant...opps, I'm dead.
I can't see this card being any good. Maybe its just because I can't see
all the set up required to teach someone a discipline. If I bring out the
big mamajama of Etrius, you better believe he is going to Govern+Perfect
Clarity+Command the Beast+Conditioning+Lost in the Crowds your butt for 9
and not dink around giving someone else an extra level of dominate so one
day I can get around ousting you.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> > Please tell me that you are joking.
> >
> > {snip long useless combo}
Yeah!!
> >
> > That is a bleed for 22 in four turns with bounce or S:CE denial being
the
> > only defence on turn four.
> >
> > Hello! Welcome to broken land. Please check your soul at the door.
> >
> Please tell me *you* are joking. Sanguine Instruction would indeed be
> a very strong card if it didn't require the same clan (and it doesn't
> need to lose the restriction), but it would hardly be as broken as you
> think. And if it were broken, I don't think giving Protean to a 9 cap
> (who already has Protean) is really the way to prove it. 22 bleed in
> four turns with bounce being the only defense is pretty much standard
> fair for a Malk S&B. Assuming you get the perfect combos (which is
> what you're doing for your strange example above), you've got at least> 5 bleed 2nd turn (Govern + Conditioning),.
10 bleed 3rd turn (Scouting
> + Threats by first vamp, Govern + Command of the Beast + Conditioning
> by second vamp), and anywhere from 10-20 4th turn. And all you need
> is some Obfuscate on them.
This combo can only be performed by two vampires Laurent and Roland. I
applaud you and your deck
Form of Mist is really no worse than
> Faceless Night, because an Obfuscate deck will always out stealth you
> anyway, and you can't prevent a Faceless Night with Immortal Grapple.
This requires skill cards to drop the Faceless at superior. I understand
what you are saying. You also don't have a third 4 cap with obfuscate and
dominate. Without a influence phase enhancer (like info highway) or another
skill card your deck stalls after the 2 first vampires come out. So you can
bleed again for 10 on the 4th turn but now one of your vampires in empty,
but with a clanless SI. I can just shuffle around instructing if I don't
get the skill cards in hand. Also, the weenie factor of my deck kills the
prey even faster if your prey doesn't pull a blocker as Ingrid just SI's
dominate onto the protean weenies where they bleed. You see the
flexibility is why it is broken
Also, I can intercept and you cannot get away from me if I do so like you
can with protean. So dedicated interecept which is a fully fleshed game
mechanic will catch you. The obvious counter is intercept which has been
around since game one.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a13aut$o5k2s$1...@ID-125246.news.dfncis.de...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I will but lets revisit my strategy. Let's say things go horribly wrong.
My opening draw now includes no Master cards
Turn one I influence out Chandler and Igo
I discard. Once again no masters
Turn two.
Chandler SI's Igo and Igo bleeds
I influence out Ingrid Rossler
I discard once again. Oh no, no masters
Turn Three
Chandler and Igo both SI Ingrid Rossler
Ingrid SI's Chandler
I influnce out Huang
I discard once again. Again, I still have no masters
Turn four
Igo SI's Huang
Ingrid SI's Chandler (Chandler now has superior Dom)
Chandler SI's Huang with Dom
Huang bleeds for 3 with Scouting and Threats
I move a vampire off the top of my crypt with my four transfers.
Oh look its another weening (Sadie, Gloria Giovanni, or any of the Gangrel
weenies with pro)
I discard. Again, I still have no masters.
Turn five
I can go to town on you.
and still influence out Gloria Giovanni
Now, I am one turn behind, but I have never used a single master phase.
What this means is that I can function without a master phase and still rape
my prey. I can put the full press on you, my prey, while at the same time,
If I can operate without a master phase, then I can use my master phase for
all sorts of nastiness. I could pack my deck with Sudden Reversals or
Direct Interventions with which I could effectively screw with the entire
table or shut down my prey. I could pack my deck with Pentex Subversions or
Vulnerabilities. I can put a ton of pressure on my prey while scaring the
living shit out of anyone who gets the dandy idea for a rush to pick off my
vampires (Wolf Claws anyone?) and running a ton of interference during my
Master Phase.
Sure Obfuscate Weenies benifit more but my deck has a Porcupine Factor
"Don't Tread on Me" which I believe makes it the superior deck.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Xian" <xi...@waste.org> wrote in message news:<a12rmd$o06o7$1...@ID-123937.news.dfncis.de>...
> "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
> news:5287ede4.02010...@posting.google.com...
>> > think. And if it were broken, I don't think giving Protean to a 9 cap
> > (who already has Protean) is really the way to prove it. 22 bleed in
>
> Chris, you're thinking Ingrid Rossler, the 9-cap Prince. Norm is thinking
> Ingrid Russo, the 4 cap !Ventrue with DOM for.
>
Ah ha! That would explain that part of it. I thought Ingrid Rossler
for the additional transfers or something strange like that. Those
names are far too similar.
Still... reduce the malk S&B capacity by about 1 per vamp, and use
Protean instead of Obfuscate? No thanks. Not to mention having one
vamp without dom who has to sit around and give out skill cards. With
DOM, you can have him giving out free blood and transfers instead.
But yes, I agree that the card doesn't need the restriction to be
removed (which obviously makes it much more likely that it *will* be
removed). It's a pretty good card as is, and regardless, increasing
the power of marginally underpowered cards (which I don't think SI is)
has never been a priority of errata.
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<l60dFPDZ...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...
> In message <a121vf$f5d$1...@wanadoo.fr>, Orpheus <orph...@wanadoo.fr>
> writes:
> >Which is why I said "do not remove the Clan clause", at least not completely
> >; but something has to be done for scarce vampires.
>
> Why? Which Scarce vampires do you feel are unnecessarily weak
> currently?
>
Miriyam Benyona - 4 points of disciplines, *perhaps* 1 point in
specials for a 5 capacity Scarce. Doesn't even have OBE.
Le Dinh Tho - 4 points of disciplines, 1-1.5 point special, approx. .5
point disadvantage. Anywhere from 4-5.5 points for a 5 cap. The lack
of nec splits on anything makes him tough to fit into anything but
aus/nec.
Blanche Hill - 5 points of disciplines, free Palatial Estate assuming
you don't get blocked each turn, at 6 capacity. The power of sup OBE
means she's *definitely* worth playing, but I can't see ever paying 3
extra for her, which means only one Salubri out, which means the
utility of those obe cards goes down, especially if she gets Sens
Dep'd or something.
Raful al-Zarqa - 4 points of disciplines on a 5 cap. 1 point special,
which isn't as good as it good be, considering that he already has
obf. *Does* fit into Malk decks, if you want to go light on stealth,
but Ozmo's at least just as good. Other than that, still aus/nec
decks, which I've heard a lot of talk about, but still have yet to see
a viable one built (it seems easy until you actually put it together
and try to figure out just what you're trying to do).
Krassimir - one of the few scarce vamps that wouldn't be undercosted
if he wasn't scarce, with about 8 points. His built in Change of
Target doesn't hurt, but the only thing I can really see him being
good for is B&B with Brujah (or Euro-Brujah), where you only want to
CoT if you're bounced. Anything else wouldn't use all of his
disciplines, and try as I might, I still can't see what Temporis is
good for (untap, but you could use ventrue for dom/pre/for; cheap
equipment, but POT doesn't really mesh well with that; overcosted
counterspells... blech).
Matthias - not bad. The scarces seem to get better as capacity
increases, but as capacity increases, the likelihood of you getting
them out decreases, or of you replacing them if they get 'sploded.
nec makes him good in the AUS/nec decks again, but if you're using him
in anything else, the nec is wasted, due to no nec splits on anything.
Kanimana - I don't have anything bad to say about her. Except that I
envision it generally being at about +2 hand size max in most games
(still nice), as you'll need her to take more important actions, or
she may be low on blood, not get out early enough, etc.
Synesios and Nu - Fine, except for my problems with tem, and the fact
that True Brujah are stupid. ;)
(grouped answer)
> >No, I agree with John, it is not useful enough, at least it doesn't do
what
> >it was supposed to (I think) : make more accessible the "exotic"
> >disciplines, and especially help mixing the scarce vampires with other
clans
> >; and the Clan Impersonation thing requires too many cards for it to rely
a
> >deck upon, and too many actions that could be better used.
>
> My sense of its purpose is to give the superior of disciplines to other
members
> of the bloodline.
Yes, but as the Bloodlines (BB excepted) are madde to be mixed, it will be
more useful for mono-clan non-bloodlines decks, and much less for scarce.
> so I don't have a lot of issue
> with it.
Well, really, I don't :I more have one with th emixity of some Bloodlines
vampires.
>Hmm...unlimited actions that emulate Revelations at aus, the ability
>to have a hand size of fifteen. No, these vampires didn't need to be
>limited at all.
Lol.
As has been stated, all these things take actions, time, which could be
employed differently ; they all could be blocked, and these vampires don't
have Obf ; and their Cap value is low enough to compensate their special
abilities, not to mention their weird discilpine mix, which as yet to prove
its efficiency.
Now, Nu is great, and so is Synesios (especially in Setite decks), but we've
talked in other threads of the mixability of the Trujahs.
And anyway, THE thing I was really saying from the beginning is : as good as
SI can be, it doesn't fulfill its supposed goal, which is spread the
marginal disciplines in a deck (and avoid the sale cost of Ian Forestal,
Infernal Pact and Infernal Familiar to triple, not to mention Clan
Impersonation to become scarcer than a Rare ; lucky me, I had already traded
3...).
SI is great in mono-clans decks, and still can be useful in Bloodlines ;
just, not enough IMHO.
> So if the answer lies not in Sanguine instruction (because I'm > sure that
I can find something better to do with three extra
> pool then
> spend it on a vampire that can be burned, mutilated, etc
> without
> warning), then I guess we're stuck waiting for something like > a
master/discipline card for those disciplines, perhaps that
> requires a
> scare vampire with the discipline to play. (Using scarce
> rather than
> the clan to avoid clan impersonation problems).
> Opinions?> -John
We seem to agree on the whole. But I think WW has made its point clear that
no Master will come out concerning Bloodlines, and it certainly wouldn't in
the forthcoming Camarilla edition. So, I dunno if anything will / can be
done. My regret is just that I think Bloodlines missed a part of its goal /
strategy. Too bad.
Well, still a nice extension, if only for corner-filling vampires (and nice
C. Shy broads !). :-)
> We've already discussed on the newsgroup various ways to > use/gain rare
> disciplines. Besides Clan Impersonation + Sanguine
> Instruction (and Feral
> Spirit), there's always Ian Forestal, Infernal Pact, and
> Infernal Familiar
> (which are hard to get but possible). And all sorts of tricks
> with Vial of
> Elder Vitae are possible as well (i.e. use two Vials to gain
> superior Temporis
> and then use Sanguine Instruction to teach it).
Kind of far-fetched, don't you think ? And, between these and the Stranger
Among Us, how many cards will this take in your 90-cards deck ? 10 ? More ?
And how many actions that could be used elsewhere ? Are scarce vampires or
disciplines really worth all that ? Hmmm...
[ quoted text not captured ]
"The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:a13bv6$nup0n$1...@ID-125246.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote:
> > In addition, the card is already extremely powerful (even with the clan
> > restriction) because it can supplement discipline cards. As Xian put it,
>
> > the flexibility is already worth it. Would you like Etrius to teach you
> Auspex,
>
<snip>
>
> I can't see this card being any good. Maybe its just because I can't see
> all the set up required to teach someone a discipline. If I bring out the
> big mamajama of Etrius, you better believe he is going to Govern+Perfect
> Clarity+Command the Beast+Conditioning+Lost in the Crowds your butt for 9
> and not dink around giving someone else an extra level of dominate so one
> day I can get around ousting you.
Allright, It should not be used that way, but SI is usefull in some other
kind of decks. I mean, whenever you built up a Toreador or Eurobrujah deck,
there's always the point in which (and how many)Master:Discipline may I put
in. Anson has inf aus, and tatiana inf pre, so may I put in 2 M:D of each or
simply 3 SI to make them teach each other their sup disciplines? It's also
possible to play Rake in the Euro Brujah, for he can learn POT or inf dom
now with a single card dependig upon what's needed at that point, giving
more game flexibility and avoiding to put that extra skill cards on another
player's minions, or discarding it anyway. SI is a fine card that hasn't to
be abused, but its usefulness is great for the right decks. And allows you
to lower the number of master cards in a given deck. There are multiple
clans which at mid-caps (4-7 cap Setites/ Tories/ !Tories/ !Tremere /
Tzimisce/ Lasombra,...) have enough vamps with one or two Sup disciplines,
and with SI they can teach each other to enhance their potential.
There is also the point about too many actions to play if you don't stay
aware (one of the best things of the 3.0 ELDB- Thanks Aderson-Davila for it-
is the point that it does acount how many cards per type are you using in
the deckbuilder) but you can balance it lowering the M:D and adding some SI.
Will you stop Corine Marçon teaching sup Vic Dragos? I guess that
you'll -usually- allow it, for it would be quite painfull to step in her
way.
> --
> Aaron
> The Nosferatu Stuff
>
>
Tom Mad&Co
Toreador antitribu Archbishop of Barcelona
In message <291e4298.02010...@posting.google.com>,
verg...@hotmail.com (John) mumbled something about:
>But my original thought that brought about my post was how to make the>scarce disciplines (temporis, obeah - scarce by virtue of only scarce
>vampires possessing them) a little more playable without being too
>playable.
They seem quite playable. The Salubri have Fortitude, and can make
excellent use of Freak Drive -- and even if your scarce vampire's only
action every turn is Renewed Vigor, he's more than paid for himself.
The True Brujah have ten gazillion actions per turn available to them,
so THAT's not an issue.
The Nagaraja have no special discipline.
What's the problem?
>So if the answer lies not in Sanguine instruction (because I'm sure
>that I can find something better to do with three extra pool then
The first scarce vampire you bring out does not cost three extra pool.
It's only the second and third that will start costing you.
>spend it on a vampire that can be burned, mutilated, etc without
Anaesthetic Touch and Fortitude make it damn near impossible to kill the
Salubri.
The True Brujah don't have Celerity, but still have Potence, meaning
they have a tendency to win fights they get into.
The Nagaraja have Necromancy, which provides S:CE with Spiritual
Intervention, and Dominate, which provides Obedience.
>warning), then I guess we're stuck waiting for something like a
>master/discipline card for those disciplines, perhaps that requires a
I would not expect to ever see Master: Discipline cards for the
Bloodlines disciplines, much less the scarce disciplines.
[ quoted text not captured ]
The Fanboy wrote:
>
> > No, I agree with John, it is not useful enough, at least it doesn't do what
> > it was supposed to (I think) : make more accessible the "exotic"
> > disciplines, and especially help mixing the scarce vampires with other clans
> > ; and the Clan Impersonation thing requires too many cards for it to rely a
> > deck upon, and too many actions that could be better used.
>
> That may not have been what the card was designed for.
You are probably correct. For whatever reason, the designers just didn't want
to allow for generating out-of-clan disciplines like that. Perhaps they didn't
want to open the game for all the various potentially broken possibilities, e.g.
what-if-Cailean-had-temporis type of things. No, I'm not suggesting Cailean
with Temporis is necessarily a problem. But there's lot of vampires out there
with lots of specials and many of the Bloodlines disciplines do do some weird
things. It would be a bit risky, I suppose.
Still, it's just irritating/frustrating when the designers pass up an
opportunity for something I think would have made the game a lot more fun.
The card would have been a lot better with the option to, say, burn 3 blood or
2 pool to ignore the in-clan requirement. As it is, attempting to use it with
clan-impersonate to accomplish anything will pretty much consign the whole
exercise to being a non-competitive "trick deck". *fruggle!*
Fred
Derek Ray wrote:
>
> In message <cB0Z7.39$jd.1...@newshog.newsread.com>,
> "Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about:
>
> >> >Would removing that text have made the card too powerful?
> >> Once per turn, Didi Meyers teaches all your OBF weenies Dominate.
> >[snip]
> >> The conclusions to be drawn are left as an exercise for the student.
> >
> >*Once per turn* <per minion>.
>
> Well, yes, per minion. Additional minions with superior in the
> discipline in question can be used to make it more often than once per
> turn. I'm assuming one teacher, and a bunch of bleeders.
...which is a lot of actions for that one teacher to take. Still, I can
were Didi Meyers teaching my Gangrel dominate (as they teach her protean)
would be pretty useful, possibly too useful. They could have balanced it
by costing the vampire blood or costing the methuselah pool (especially
pool) rather than forcing vampires to clan impersonate, which basically
makes it unusable for that purpose.
> >Also, using SI in such a manner creates problems unto itself. That's alot
> >of actions you are taking to hand out disciplines. Plus, those actions could
>
> Which doesn't matter since you're using weenies -- you have plenty of
> actions to spare.
I don't understand that statement. It's the teacher that takes the action,
not the student. If you mean that it's Didi Meyers taking the action as
opposed to Lucian and that you can therefore also afford to use Kurt Strauss
to do it as well, I agree - for what it's worth. But if you're teaching a
bunch of weenie students, that's _more_ actions for the (limited number of)
teachers to take. So I don't see how teaching weenies is an advantage in
that sense. (Just that you've got more minions with superior dominate when
you're done, I suppose.)
Fred
. But if you're teaching a
> bunch of weenie students, that's _more_ actions for the (limited number
of)
> teachers to take. So I don't see how teaching weenies is an advantage in
> that sense. (Just that you've got more minions with superior dominate
when
> you're done, I suppose.)
The kicker is that if you teach a weenie student twice, then he becomes a
master. It spins out of control from here.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <3C35EC83...@removethis.com>,
Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> mumbled
something about:
>Derek Ray wrote:>>Sorrow wrote:>>> >Also, using SI in such a manner creates problems unto itself. That's alot
>> >of actions you are taking to hand out disciplines. Plus, those actions could
>>
>> Which doesn't matter since you're using weenies -- you have plenty of
>> actions to spare.>
>I don't understand that statement. It's the teacher that takes the action,
>not the student. If you mean that it's Didi Meyers taking the action as
Right. The point is that since you're using weenies, you can spare one
action per turn to go handing out disciplines -- your offense will
suffer very little as a result.
Say the first two vamps I get are Mustafa Rahman and Ohanna. Yay. Next
turn, I get Agrippina (Mustafa and Ohanna can piddle around and do
whatever in the meantime, if only stay untapped to Deflect).
Next turn, Agrippina takes an action to teach Mustafa Obfuscate. He
bleeds for 3. Ohanna stays untapped to Deflect, and I influence out
Samson.
Next turn, Agrippina teaches Samson Obfuscate. He and Mustafa bleed for
3. Ohanna stays untapped, and I go fishing for a new DOM weenie.
Next turn, Agrippina teaches Ohanna Obfuscate, and everyone goes
bleeding for 3. It really goes sharply downhill for my prey from this
point forward. My defense against Rush is no less effective than a
traditional Malk S&B -- except that I've got more minions, so it's
harder to get rid of them. And I'm going to keep getting more minions.
If at any point I draw into a Dominate skill card, someone gets superior
Dominate and IMMEDIATELY becomes the next target to learn Obfuscate --
and now I have two teachers available if I ever have more than one SI in
hand, and can screw around playing Scouting Mission at superior and the
like. In the meantime, my master phases are available for stuff like
Sudden Reversal, Effective Management, and Direct Intervention -- since
I've cut about 75% of the skill cards out of the deck.
>to do it as well, I agree - for what it's worth. But if you're teaching a
>bunch of weenie students, that's _more_ actions for the (limited number of)
>teachers to take. So I don't see how teaching weenies is an advantage in
>that sense. (Just that you've got more minions with superior dominate when
>you're done, I suppose.)
More minions is a major advantage for ANY deck. More minions with the
exact discipline combo you're looking for is an even bigger advantage.
=)
[ quoted text not captured ]
"The Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<a13aut$o5k2s$1...@ID-125246.news.dfncis.de>...
>> I put a dominate skill card on both chandler AND igo, both bleed with
> govern(5 cards, 2 actions, -6 pool)
> vs [4 cards, 2 actions, -3 pool]
>> blood doll igo, protean skill on ingrid, all 3 bleed with govern (10 cards,
> 5 actions, -15 pool)
> vs [9 cards, 5 actions, -9 pool]
>> dominate+protean skill on huang, all bleed with govern (16 cards, 9
> actions, -27 pool)
> vs (17 cards, 9 actions, -22 pool)
>> Using the same number of actions, and 1 less card I did 5 more pool damage
> then you?
> If I assume a single conditioning, thats 8 more pool, at the same number of
> cards, same number of actions, and I can just as well say "i'll form of mist
> everything by."
At no point in this sequence do Igo or Ingrid gain PRO. Waiting for
them to do so will slow their bleeds as well as Huang's by one turn
each.
Marc G.
In message <3C35EC83...@removethis.com>, Frederick Scott
<freds64_at_...@removethis.com> writes:
>> Well, yes, per minion. Additional minions with superior in the
>> discipline in question can be used to make it more often than once per
>> turn. I'm assuming one teacher, and a bunch of bleeders.>
>...which is a lot of actions for that one teacher to take. Still, I can
>were Didi Meyers teaching my Gangrel dominate (as they teach her protean)
>would be pretty useful, possibly too useful. They could have balanced it
>by costing the vampire blood or costing the methuselah pool (especially
>pool) rather than forcing vampires to clan impersonate, which basically
>makes it unusable for that purpose.
Difficult? Perhaps. Unusable? I doubt it.
For a number of the scarce vampire decks, including Clan Impersonation
is certainly looking to be a good option so that if you include two in
your crypt, you can bring both out. Hopefully.
For the sort of deck where you are simply upping the level of
understanding of vampires anyway (e.g. teaching Boy Toy some Obfuscate,
which is fairly easily accessible in clan), the Clan Impersonation is
mostly moot.
For the sort of deck where you are playing interesting combinations of
disciplines, it can be useful to include Clan Impersonations simply so
that you can get some clan cards out of your hand and include them in
the deck. (e.g. in the hypothetical Gangrel/Malkavian deck, you might
want to include Malkavian Seven Miseries, Ritual Challenge or so on)
These often aren't included now, but Sanguine Instruction provides some
utility for them. In very odd discipline combos, Sanguine Instruction
could make an excellent replacement for all/most of your Discipline
cards so that you can add Obfuscate, Fortitude, Serpentis or Thaumaturgy
as the vampires you draw dictate. And Clan Impersonation can aid this.
>> >Also, using SI in such a manner creates problems unto itself. That's alot
>> >of actions you are taking to hand out disciplines. Plus, those actions could
>>
>> Which doesn't matter since you're using weenies -- you have plenty of
>> actions to spare.>
>I don't understand that statement. It's the teacher that takes the action,
>not the student.
The point - as has been made in other follow-ups - is that including
lots of them will cause a progression where the teacher starts and then
the student teaches and so on.
One potential 'fix' there would be something along the lines of "Put
this card on that vampire. A vampire with a Sanguine Instruction on
them cannot play Sanguine Instruction." (Though that has interesting
ramifications if you allow it to be played all around the table.) But
such fixes start taking us beyond the realms of the existing card into
an almost entirely separate tandem card.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <3C35E894...@removethis.com>, Frederick Scott
<freds64_at_...@removethis.com> writes:
>You are probably correct. For whatever reason, the designers just didn't want
>to allow for generating out-of-clan disciplines like that.
One of the very obvious reasons is theme. Generating useful, well-
balanced cards that fit inside theme is Good, because of the marketing
options that brings forward.
> Perhaps they didn't
>want to open the game for all the various potentially broken
>possibilities, e.g.
>what-if-Cailean-had-temporis type of things. No, I'm not suggesting Cailean
>with Temporis is necessarily a problem. But there's lot of vampires out there
>with lots of specials and many of the Bloodlines disciplines do do some weird
>things. It would be a bit risky, I suppose.
It could be extremely risky, yes. It becomes hard to play-test, which
becomes a problem in any game, of course, if nothing else.
>Still, it's just irritating/frustrating when the designers pass up an
>opportunity for something I think would have made the game a lot more fun.
I don't think they have. Look at Daimoinon, for example. This has a
few restrictions regarding infernal. But Temporis has no such
restrictions that I've come across. They *could* have been set up that,
say, "Time Traveller" was a trait that prevented the use of Celerity
cards and was also required on a number of Temporis cards. Similarly
Obeah - give all the Salubri the trait "Healer".
This hasn't been done. And it would have prevented Ian Forestal,
Infernal Familiar, Vial of Elder Vitae, Camarilla Vitae Slave, Reality
Mirror, Haven Affinity (once taught once), Infernal Pact and Call the
Great Beast from working.
It's not the simplest thing to do - but you certainly *can* do the
things you want, it's just not easy.
>The card would have been a lot better with the option to, say, burn 3 blood or
>2 pool to ignore the in-clan requirement. As it is, attempting to use it with
>clan-impersonate to accomplish anything will pretty much consign the whole
>exercise to being a non-competitive "trick deck". *fruggle!*
Possibly. Useful inclusion of the out-of-clan vampires, possibly with
Recruitment or The Stranger Among Us will help. Careful choice of split
disciplines with useful fall-back levels will help.
Creating a deck with 12 Brujah weenies playing Temporis, however, is
unlikely to happen.
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe wrote:
>
> In message <3C35EC83...@removethis.com>, Frederick Scott
> <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> writes:
> >> Well, yes, per minion. Additional minions with superior in the
> >> discipline in question can be used to make it more often than once per
> >> turn. I'm assuming one teacher, and a bunch of bleeders.
> >
> >...which is a lot of actions for that one teacher to take. Still, I can
> >were Didi Meyers teaching my Gangrel dominate (as they teach her protean)
> >would be pretty useful, possibly too useful. They could have balanced it
> >by costing the vampire blood or costing the methuselah pool (especially
> >pool) rather than forcing vampires to clan impersonate, which basically
> >makes it unusable for that purpose.
>
> Difficult? Perhaps. Unusable? I doubt it.
>
> For a number of the scarce vampire decks, including Clan Impersonation
> is certainly looking to be a good option so that if you include two in
> your crypt, you can bring both out. Hopefully.
Yea, but that's still too many moving parts. Depending on a relatively
small number of clan impersonates to come up early in the game so that your
dog-and-pony show comes off on schedule is not the stuff of canny
deckbuilding. If it's for some peripheral function (maybe some long-odds
superpowerful combination that you don't depend on) then maybe it's OK
to build into your deck but then it's really not going to have much effect
on the metagame as a whole. I think we have to be grownups here and admit
the truth: that the in-clan requirement on SI almost completely wipes out
any chance of any using to to get off cross-clan combos (or cross-discipline
combos between disciplines that are not shared members of a single clan).
The penalty-for-cross-clan-use idea would have made such things a lot
more viable. Presumably, you should be able to regulate brokenness by
setting the penalty correctly.
There's still the thematic objection you raised, which I agree is relevant.
My friends who play VTM challenged the concept that it's impossible to
learn the rare disciplines outside of their clans, however. (Just very
difficult, so the idea of penalizing for it would also be thematically
correct.) So I wonder if your objection is technically accurate.
Fred
In message <3C360C8A...@removethis.com>,
Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> mumbled
something about:
>Yea, but that's still too many moving parts. Depending on a relatively>small number of clan impersonates to come up early in the game so that your
>dog-and-pony show comes off on schedule is not the stuff of canny
>deckbuilding. If it's for some peripheral function (maybe some long-odds
>superpowerful combination that you don't depend on) then maybe it's OK
Clan Impersonation, in ANY form, is only suitable for some peripheral
functional that you don't depend on. Off the top of my head, nothing
occurs to me where it isn't just easier to play the clan itself than it
is to Clan Impersonate into them.
>to build into your deck but then it's really not going to have much effect
>on the metagame as a whole. I think we have to be grownups here and admit
>the truth: that the in-clan requirement on SI almost completely wipes out
>any chance of any using to to get off cross-clan combos (or cross-discipline
>combos between disciplines that are not shared members of a single clan).
And why exactly is this such a tragedy?
It takes a lot of work to give Cailean Quietus, too, so he can play
Taste of Death and Blood Sweat. Is that a flaw in the game?
Trying to do that is almost equally as difficult as using Clan
Impersonation/Sanguine Instruction -- Master cards are more difficult to
cycle easily. You can always waste blood having other vamps CI, and you
can always use SI to hand around superior disciplines if you have too
many in hand (from having to put so many in the deck to guarantee an
early one).
>The penalty-for-cross-clan-use idea would have made such things a lot
>more viable. Presumably, you should be able to regulate brokenness by
>setting the penalty correctly.
What makes you think the penalty is incorrect?
[ quoted text not captured ]
>Wow, that is exactly what I want to do with an 11 cap Inner Circle member
>Tremere. Make sure Mustafa gets his inferior Obfuscate. I mean, eventually
>it will be worth it right? Paying more then 1/3 of your pool to have a
>discipline making machine! Sweet, then I can save all those master slots
>for really important stuff, like blood dolls to make up some of the cost of
>the giant...opps, I'm dead.
Doesn't sound as bad as you make it seem. If you're playing a Tremere deck with
Obfuscate, it is a way to get it. And in some decks, Etrius may have better
things to do, but how about in say a bloat deck? Minion Tap him down to one and
he can spend time teaching Cardano and Ulugh Obfuscate so they can pass 5th
Traditions easily? Also, note that with Tremere, you can always get Rutor's
Hand. Sometimes you end up with nothing else better to do and a Sanguine
Instruction can't hurt. So Etrius bleeds with all that nasty stuff you
mentioned (using Obfuscate for stealth). Then he untaps and gives Obfuscate to
Spiridonas, who can now use the stealth to bleed for a lot as well.
Halcyan 2
Derek Ray wrote:
>
> In message <3C360C8A...@removethis.com>,> Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> proudly crowed
> something about:> >I think we have to be grownups here and admit
> >the truth: that the in-clan requirement on SI almost completely wipes out
> >any chance of any using to to get off cross-clan combos (or cross-discipline
> >combos between disciplines that are not shared members of a single clan).
>
> And why exactly is this such a tragedy?
I thought I'd covered that already but I can sit here and insanely rant
for as long it continues to delight you: *it's fun*, OK? Building decks
that would have had some chance of combining the new disciplines with
something *else* besides the one or two other discipline the new discipline's
clan already knows would have allowed for more possibility and imagination
in doing something with these new cards that we're all gladly mortgaging our
houses and selling our cars for. It also would have allowed for new decks
using existing disciplines in new combinations (particularly the new two-
discipline combo cards) to come to light.
> It takes a lot of work to give Cailean Quietus, too, so he can play
> Taste of Death and Blood Sweat. Is that a flaw in the game?
Actually yes - the more so because it takes a lot of work to come up with
minions that can use Elemental Stoicism and make Taste of Death lame.
> >The penalty-for-cross-clan-use idea would have made such things a lot
> >more viable. Presumably, you should be able to regulate brokenness by
> >setting the penalty correctly.
>
> What makes you think the penalty is incorrect?
??? There is no penalty right now because there's no cross-clan-use.
I'm saying they should have allowed cross-clan-use and penalized it -
at whatever amount of blood and/or pool (or alternatively some other
penalty, e.g. allowing your prey to punch you in the nose real good)
they deemed was "correct".
Fred
>I don't understand that statement. It's the teacher that takes the action,
>not the student. If you mean that it's Didi Meyers taking the action as
>opposed to Lucian and that you can therefore also afford to use Kurt Strauss
>to do it as well, I agree - for what it's worth. But if you're teaching a
>bunch of weenie students, that's _more_ actions for the (limited number of)
>teachers to take. So I don't see how teaching weenies is an advantage in
>that sense. (Just that you've got more minions with superior dominate when
>you're done, I suppose.)
Well, it's not that big of a deal because pretty soon, the student becomes the
teacher. And then when you have two teachers, you can give a vampire a superior
discipline in a single turn (and he can then Sanguine Instruction as well).
Halcyan 2
> I thought I'd covered that already but I can sit here and insanely rant
> for as long it continues to delight you: *it's fun*, OK? Building decks
> that would have had some chance of combining the new disciplines with
> something *else* besides the one or two other discipline the new
discipline's
> clan already knows would have allowed for more possibility and imagination
> in doing something with these new cards that we're all gladly mortgaging
our
> houses and selling our cars for. It also would have allowed for new decks
> using existing disciplines in new combinations (particularly the new two-
> discipline combo cards) to come to light.
Oh, gee, why not just pick the disciplies for your vampires when they come
out then? If it's such a hassle for you do work around the limitations of
the cards that are in the game.
> > It takes a lot of work to give Cailean Quietus, too, so he can play
> > Taste of Death and Blood Sweat. Is that a flaw in the game?
>
> Actually yes - the more so because it takes a lot of work to come up with
> minions that can use Elemental Stoicism and make Taste of Death lame.
wtf?
GreySeer wrote:
>
> > I thought I'd covered that already but I can sit here and insanely rant
> > for as long it continues to delight you: *it's fun*, OK? Building decks
> > that would have had some chance of combining the new disciplines with
> > something *else* besides the one or two other discipline the new
> > discipline's clan already knows would have allowed for more possibility
> > and imagination in doing something with these new cards that we're all
> > gladly mortgaging our houses and selling our cars for. It also would
> > have allowed for new decks using existing disciplines in new> > combinations (particularly the new two-discipline combo cards) to come> > to light.
>
> Oh, gee, why not just pick the disciplies for your vampires when they come
> out then? If it's such a hassle for you do work around the limitations of
> the cards that are in the game.
OK, great! Let's go the other way it: let's get rid of all the master
discipline cards and leave each vampire precisely as they come out of the pack.
Limitations are cool!
Look, I'm not asking to get rid of all the limitations. That's why I
continually talk about setting some kind of penalty for using it across
clans. What you get is something akin what kind of stealth you get with
Celerity or what kind of combat cards you get with Obfuscate. They exist,
but you pay a price for an ability that is not very central to the discipline.
The bottom line is whether it makes the game more fun to play or not, as long
as game balance has been carefully looked after. I sympathize with what
you're saying. At some point, there has to be limitations. I just would
have really loved to use this card to teach the new disciplines outside of
their tiny little bloodline clans. It's subjective taste, though.
Fred
> > Oh, gee, why not just pick the disciplies for your vampires when they
come
> > out then? If it's such a hassle for you do work around the limitations
of
> > the cards that are in the game.
>
> OK, great! Let's go the other way it: let's get rid of all the master
> discipline cards and leave each vampire precisely as they come out of the
pack.
> Limitations are cool!
That wouldn't have bothered me but I'll admit that I like Master: Discipline
cards. Even though I don't actually use them much.
> Look, I'm not asking to get rid of all the limitations. That's why I
> continually talk about setting some kind of penalty for using it across
> clans. What you get is something akin what kind of stealth you get with
> Celerity or what kind of combat cards you get with Obfuscate. They exist,
> but you pay a price for an ability that is not very central to the
discipline.
True, I did exaggerate. Paying pool to go cross clan would be prohibitive
but not prevent people who really want to from doing so and having their fun
too, although at a signifigant price. I don't think I would have complained
if it were that way. From a thematic point of view though I do like the CI
angle. A vampire impersonates a vampire from another clan so it can learn
their secrets.
> The bottom line is whether it makes the game more fun to play or not, as
long
> as game balance has been carefully looked after. I sympathize with what
> you're saying. At some point, there has to be limitations. I just would
> have really loved to use this card to teach the new disciplines outside of
> their tiny little bloodline clans. It's subjective taste, though.
>
> Fred
It would make for some interesting deck ideas being able to SI outside of a
clan and I would enjoy doing it, I won't deny that. It does however add a
lot to the flavour of the game when disciplines/discipline combos are
restriced to a clan or vampires with it are rare/scarse. For me the game
would start to loose personality ( which is one of the greatest things going
for it next to the multi-player+predator/prey aspect ) if you could almost
arbitrarily get minions with any discipline combo working.
Aside from that I think there needs to be limits otherwise the whole thing
falls down. I was annoyed that dominate got a dodge in BL, I mean, what
next? Manuvers, strikes? There has to be some limit to what it can do,
otherwise there becomes no difference between it and the other disciplines
and that breaks the game.
The Nosferatu Stuff wrote:
>
> I can't see this card being any good. Maybe its just because I can't see
> all the set up required to teach someone a discipline. If I bring out the
> big mamajama of Etrius, you better believe he is going to Govern+Perfect
> Clarity+Command the Beast+Conditioning+Lost in the Crowds your butt for 9
> and not dink around giving someone else an extra level of dominate so one
> day I can get around ousting you.
> --
Let's cheese on instead. Emerson Bridges creates a Progeny. Dominate
skillcard from ash-heap and two blood to the progeny. Freak Drive and
SI and I'm one blocker down - but thankfully I just created a weenie
with superior dominate who can Deflect twice or Redirect older vamps.
For more fun, let's try out the frisbee-deck. Embrace, Fortitude
skillcard, Freak Drive, SI for inferior dominate. Embrace hunts,
Force of Will with dominate modifier. You want fortitude skillcards
for the +1 fun using Daring the Dawn as an option for both hunting
and bleed ;).
Ok, the latter may not be THAT viable, but the option to create new
vampires and have them with two disciplines in creationround seems
pretty powerful to me.
Sten During