Shambling Hordes Q

When Shambling Hordes enter play I have to remove an ally or vampire in my ash heap from the game. So what exactly does 'enter play' mean? Is this just the first time the card gets played? Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)? Michael

In message <9ebd888f.01102...@posting.google.com>, mostly harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes: >When Shambling Hordes enter play I have to remove an ally or vampire >in my ash heap from the game. > >So what exactly does 'enter play' mean? To enter play - to move from a circumstance of not being in play to being in play. > Is this just the first time >the card gets played? This would be one such instance. The card was not in play and now is. >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)? This would also count. The card was not in play and now is. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D And if it's all right, I'd kind've like to be your lover EBD690ECD7A1F 'Cause when you're with me I can't help but be B457CA213D7E6 So desperately, uncontrollably happy 68C3695D623D5D

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<TvbEG1kV...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <9ebd888f.01102...@posting.google.com>, mostly > harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes: > >When Shambling Hordes enter play I have to remove an ally or vampire > >in my ash heap from the game. > > > >So what exactly does 'enter play' mean? > > To enter play - to move from a circumstance of not being in play to > being in play. So what's not being in play? > > Is this just the first time > >the card gets played? > > This would be one such instance. The card was not in play and now is. So the cards in the ash heap are not considered in play? (There are cards that target or require the use of certain cards in the ash heap after all.) > >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the > >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)? > > This would also count. The card was not in play and now is. Well, another interpretation would be that playing the card from my hand brings it in play where it stays as long as the game lasts or it is removed from the game. Is there a rule or ruling defining what's in or out of play? Thanks, M.

In message <9ebd888f.01102...@posting.google.com>, mostly harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes: >So what's not being in play? In general, a card in a library, crypt, hand, uncontrolled region or ash heap would not be "in play". A controlled card, whether ready or torporised, whether tapped or untapped, would be in play. Contesting takes a card "out of play" (1.6.1.4) (Not that that's relevant to Shambling Hordes.) >So the cards in the ash heap are not considered in play? No. For example: 1.6.1.4 demonstrates the Unique cards in play contest each other. This does not, of course, includes cards in the ash heap. > (There are >cards that target or require the use of certain cards in the ash heap >after all.) Certain cards can do many things. For example, certain cards can target cards in your hand. They are not, however, in play. (Else that Tomb you've got in your hand will contest that Tomb I've got in play.) Similarly, I can burn cards in your crypt with certain cards - they are also not in play. >> >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the >> >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)? >> >> This would also count. The card was not in play and now is. > >Well, another interpretation would be that playing the card from my >hand brings it in play where it stays as long as the game lasts or it >is removed from the game. You can then never yield a contest. A yielded contest goes to the ash- heap, which is not the same as removed from the game (the two being quite separate activities). Your interpret > Is there a rule or ruling defining what's in >or out of play? Contested cards are out of play. [1.6.1.4, as previously referenced] The ash heap is out of play. [LSJ20010626] <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B394091.C9389099%40white- wolf.com> - Question 7. Most specifically: '"In play" is equivalent to "controlled by some Methuselah".' [LSJ20010327] <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AC0EE93.27F78BB6%40white- wolf.com> [ quoted text not captured ]

> >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the > >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)? > > This would also count. The card was not in play and now is. I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the table (if only by its presence). If it goes to the ash heap, it still is in the play area, especially concerning the Giovanni (or other Necromants). [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > mostly harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes: > >So what's not being in play? > > In general, a card in a library, crypt, hand, uncontrolled region or ash > heap would not be "in play". > > A controlled card, whether ready or torporised, whether tapped or > untapped, would be in play. > > Contesting takes a card "out of play" (1.6.1.4) (Not that that's > relevant to Shambling Hordes.) Right. If the card has been "put in play" (per the rules) and has not "left play", then it is "in play". In general, any face-up card on the table is "in play". > >So the cards in the ash heap are not considered in play? > > [Correct]. For example: Gotta watch those negative questions, James. :-) > Most specifically: > '"In play" is equivalent to "controlled by some Methuselah".' > [LSJ20010327] > <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3AC0EE93.27F78BB6%40white- > wolf.com> -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Orpheus wrote: > > >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the > > >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)? > > > > This would also count. The card was not in play and now is. > > I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for > the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the > table (if only by its presence). If it goes to the ash heap, it still is in > the play area, especially concerning the Giovanni (or other Necromants). James is correct. "Enter play" means exactly that. "Enter the kitchen" means every time, not just the first time, you go into the kitchen from somewhere out of the kitchen. "Enter play" means every time, not just the first time, you go into play from somewhere out of play. Cards in the ash heap are not in play. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <9rbduc$hec$1...@wanadoo.fr>, Orpheus <orph...@wanadoo.fr> writes: >I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for >the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the >table (if only by its presence). If that were the case, circumlocutions such as "enter play" would be unnecessary. It would simply happen when the card was "played". [LSJ20010820] also rules that this interpretation is incorrect. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B81D7E4.A3803EB2%40white-wolf.com " > >Compel the Spirit. > >When compeling a Shambling Horde do you have to burn another ally ect > >to > >return the SH to play? > > > > Yes you do have to remove another ally etc to return the SH to play. > When > Compelled, it is still "entering play." Correct." (Halcyan2 at > level, LSJ saying "Correct".) Orpheus: > If it goes to the ash heap, it still is in >the play area, especially concerning the Giovanni (or other Necromants). It may still be targeted by certain effects of the game, sure. That does not make it "in play". Is my hand in play? Surely, by this logic, it is, especially concerning Ravnos (and other Chimerstrists[0])? In which case, by [1.6.1.4] cards which are in your hand contest cards which are in the controlled region. See my other post referring to LSJ's given definition of "in play", regarding being controlled. [0] Anyone who cares to invent a better word is welcome. [ quoted text not captured ]

> James is correct. "Enter play" means exactly that. Ok, James, sorry to have doubted your omniscience... ;-) > Cards in the ash heap are not in play. Well, all of a sudden it's much less interesting to base a deck on SH / Compel the Spirit... [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:l72JTOXh...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <9rbduc$hec$1...@wanadoo.fr>, Orpheus <orph...@wanadoo.fr> > writes: > >I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for > >the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the > >table (if only by its presence). > > If that were the case, circumlocutions such as "enter play" would be > unnecessary. It would simply happen when the card was "played". > > [LSJ20010820] also rules that this interpretation is incorrect. > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B81D7E4.A3803EB2%40white-wolf.com I just wonder where you get the date from, the link's date is 27th of March 2001? Roger

"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message news:9rbmr0$sqiap$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de... [ quoted text not captured ] Uhm nevermind, was watching the wrong link in my browser.

"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:9rbmgq$qhr$1...@wanadoo.fr... > > James is correct. "Enter play" means exactly that. > > Ok, James, sorry to have doubted your omniscience... ;-) > > > Cards in the ash heap are not in play. > > Well, all of a sudden it's much less interesting to base a deck on SH / > Compel the Spirit... It works just fine, you just need a lot more SH in your ash heap. You can discard them into your ash heap and remove them ( the discarded ones ) from the game when you Compel. I've seen a very effective deck do it, it has 13 SH in it, a Barrens or Fragment might help too with the discarding.

> > Well, all of a sudden it's much less interesting to base a deck on SH / > > Compel the Spirit... > > It works just fine, you just need a lot more SH in your ash heap. You can > discard them into your ash heap and remove them ( the discarded ones ) from > the game when you Compel. I've seen a very effective deck do it, it has 13 > SH in it, a Barrens or Fragment might help too with the discarding. And don't forget to remember that CtS works on allies/retainers that have been ** burned since your last turn **. Unless I'm mistaken, discarding a SH from your hand does not count as "burned"... yes?

"Frederic Genest" <gen...@iname.com> wrote in message news:703899b7.01102...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] It does count as burnt, but does not fulfill the "controlled" requirement of CtS. The discarding supplies the ally to burn for the one you bring in to play. -- Oscar Garza Prince of College Station The Crazy Aggie

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > Orpheus wrote: > > > >Does moving the Hordes from the ash heap to the > > > >ready region via Compel the Spirit count as entering play (again)? > > > > > > This would also count. The card was not in play and now is. > > > > I wouldn't agree : I think "enter play" means exactly that : the card for > > the first time gets on the table, and interacts with other cards on the > > table (if only by its presence). If it goes to the ash heap, it still is in > > the play area, especially concerning the Giovanni (or other Necromants). > > James is correct. "Enter play" means exactly that. > > "Enter the kitchen" means every time, not just the first time, you go into > the kitchen from somewhere out of the kitchen. > > "Enter play" means every time, not just the first time, you go into > play from somewhere out of play. > > Cards in the ash heap are not in play. Related questions, though not obviously: Is a contested card in play? Is it controlled? - Jason Bell

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3BD93D75...@white-wolf.com>... > James Coupe wrote: > > mostly harmless <mostlyh...@chello.at> writes: > > >So what's not being in play? > > > > In general, a card in a library, crypt, hand, uncontrolled region or ash > > heap would not be "in play". > > > > A controlled card, whether ready or torporised, whether tapped or > > untapped, would be in play. > > > > Contesting takes a card "out of play" (1.6.1.4) (Not that that's > > relevant to Shambling Hordes.) > > Right. If the card has been "put in play" (per the rules) and has not "left > play", then it is "in play". In general, any face-up card on the table is > "in play". > Alright. I guess I'll have to rethink about that Shambling Hordes/Compell the Spirit deck. Maybe if I put some disposable allies in there... Anyway, thanks to both of you. Michael

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: [snip] >It may still be targeted by certain effects of the game, sure. That >does not make it "in play". Is my hand in play? Surely, by this logic, >it is, especially concerning Ravnos (and other Chimerstrists[0])? In >which case, by [1.6.1.4] cards which are in your hand contest cards >which are in the controlled region. > >See my other post referring to LSJ's given definition of "in play", >regarding being controlled. > > >[0] Anyone who cares to invent a better word is welcome. How about "chimerist"? "chimerist" is to "chimeristry" as "chemist" is to "chemistry". Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices.

[ quoted text not captured ] No. (it is not face up). > Is it controlled? No, since it is not in play. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > Jason Bell wrote: > > > > Related questions, though not obviously: > > Is a contested card in play? > > No. (it is not face up). > > > Is it controlled? > > No, since it is not in play. Confirmation question: Does The Rack re-target a vampire during the untap after your opponent yields the costested copy (since the control changes from uncontrolled to controlled by you)? - Jason Bell

[ quoted text not captured ] No. Contesting doesn't change the status of the card. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > Jason Bell wrote: > > > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > > > Jason Bell wrote: > > > > > > > > Related questions, though not obviously: > > > > Is a contested card in play? > > > > > > No. (it is not face up). > > > > > > > Is it controlled? > > > > > > No, since it is not in play. > > > > Confirmation question: > > > > Does The Rack re-target a vampire during the untap after > > your opponent yields the costested copy (since the control > > changes from uncontrolled to controlled by you)? > > No. Contesting doesn't change the status of the card. Well, it has to after a fashion, since the status changes from not controlled to controlled. But, I suppose since control never "changes," as in from one player to another, the relevant text to The Rack does not trigger? - Jason Bell

A related SH ? If you return the SH to play from the ash heap with Compel the Spirit, is the 'burn an ally/retainer from the game' part of the COST of putting that SH into play again? And thus negated by the Compel the spirit? T

In message <3bed8436.232830036@news>, Talo...@hotmail.com writes: >If you return the SH to play from the ash heap with Compel the Spirit, >is the 'burn an ally/retainer from the game' part of the COST of >putting that SH into play again? No. It's just what the card says on it. >And thus negated by the Compel the spirit? No. The Compelled Shambling Horde enters play. Its card text about when it enters play kicks in, meaning you have to burn an ally or retainer. -- James Coupe Everybody knows that "No" means "Yes" PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Just like glasses come free on the NHS EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 But the more I look through them the more I see 13D7E668C3695D623D5D I'm becoming more like Alfie

>If you return the SH to play from the ash heap with Compel the Spirit, >is the 'burn an ally/retainer from the game' part of the COST of >putting that SH into play again? No. The cost of a card is always just the number in the blood drop on the left side (in blood or pool). That's it. The burn/remove thingy is an effect of the card. >And thus negated by the Compel the spirit? No. Halcyan 2

In message <20011107151243...@mb-mv.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes: >No. The cost of a card is always just the number in the blood drop on the left >side (in blood or pool). That's it. Possibly modified by card text. e.g. Venenation [ quoted text not captured ]