Folks:
I'm wondering about the feasibility of the wholesale adding of a
discipline to a clan thru the use of Master cards (for example, adding
Potence to the Toreador or Auspex to the Followers of Set).
I'm sure it would be difficult, since first you'd have to add lots of
extra discipline cards. Even with 10 discipline cards, you have "only"
a 93% chance of drawing at least 1 in your first 20 cards. And, of
course, you'd need to add the minion cards that required that new
discipline.
So, rather than experiment myself, I am polling the collective wisdom
of the group. Has anyone successfully added a discipline to a clan??
TIA,
Madman
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On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 15:10:55 GMT, "Madman2001" <Mad...@madman.com>
wrote:
>Folks:
>
>I'm wondering about the feasibility of the wholesale adding of a
>discipline to a clan thru the use of Master cards (for example, adding
>Potence to the Toreador or Auspex to the Followers of Set)
Yes, it works. You need to be only using the inferior form of the
discipline, as actually getting any vamps with superior on it are
damned well nigh-impossible. Unless they started with inferior in the
first place. =)
>I'm sure it would be difficult, since first you'd have to add lots of
>extra discipline cards. Even with 10 discipline cards, you have "only"
>a 93% chance of drawing at least 1 in your first 20 cards. And, of
>course, you'd need to add the minion cards that required that new
>discipline.
Statistically, this might be true, but from my experiences 10
discipline cards is sufficient to ensure one in your opening *10*
cards almost always. Sure, you have to add the minion cards, but
that's not a big deal since they're cards for whatever discipline
you're using anyway, whether it was on the clan or not. =)
>So, rather than experiment myself, I am polling the collective wisdom
>of the group. Has anyone successfully added a discipline to a clan??
Sure. Pat O'Shea and David Davila have both added Serpentis to the
Gangrel. I've added Dominate to the Gangrel, and also stuck it on a
bunch of little Potence guys. I've seen Obfuscate and Protean given
to a bunch of little Presence guys, and I've seen Protean handed out
just to use Horrific Countenance. 8 to 10 discipline cards usually
does the trick, but you MUST be able to use the new toy at inferior.
It's also good to have a Barrens and Fraggie in the deck, because
those last 4 discipline cards are not going to be your friend. =)
-- Derek
Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music.
It only stopped them hearing the distractions.
Derek Ray wrote:
<Yes, it works
(snipped)
OK, it may be feasible, but in general, wouldn't it be better to use
disciplineless(sp?) cards or use another strategy? The commitment to
adding a discipline is 1/9th of your deck, which tends to preclude using
other disclipine cards and pushes the entire deck towards Master jam. I
would suggest using cards like Computer Hacking, Lucky Blow, Fake Out,
or whatever if at all possible. It may not always be possible, given
what you want to do, since there's no replacement for cards like
Horrific Countenance outside of pro, but trying to do too much with a
deck is a sure way to get annihilated. That's one reason why focused
decks like Malk S/B tend to do so well. Carpe Noctem
-T
--
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a persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
Ma per ciò che giammai di questo fondo
non tornò vivo alcun, s'i' odo il vero,
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Thanks for sharing your experiences. I may try this.
>>from my experiences 10 discipline cards is sufficient to ensure one in your opening *10* cards almost always.<<
Well, according to my odds.xls spreadsheet, the odds are slightly
better than 50/50 you'll get one in the first 7 cards. However, it
rapidly improves to where after the first dozen it's 75% and after 20
cards (no big problem in a fast-moving deck) it's up to 93%.
Thanks again,
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Madman2001 wrote:
> So, rather than experiment myself, I am polling the collective wisdom
> of the group. Has anyone successfully added a discipline to a clan??
It's possible. Also, consider the use of Changeling Skin Mask, Hand of
Conrad and Infernal Familiar, when possible, as well as Ian Forestal.
You are generally best off, however, when at least one or two vampires
within the clan already have the discipline - e.g. Thaumaturgy with
Assamites, Auspex and Fortitude with the Nosferatu, and so forth.
--
James Coupe
On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Madman2001 wrote:
> Well, according to my odds.xls spreadsheet, the odds are slightly
> better than 50/50 you'll get one in the first 7 cards. However, it
> rapidly improves to where after the first dozen it's 75% and after 20
> cards (no big problem in a fast-moving deck) it's up to 93%.
Well, it's also notable that you don't really *want* a discipline card in
your very first hand, since you can't play it. Having it at card 8, 9 or
10 would be good (assuming you regularly use discard phases, which is most
often a Good Thing (tm) - though many players look at their hand and think
"Cool, if I can just hold this for a couple of turns.....", which, whilst
understandable, IME (having done it many times), can be highly harmful).
--
James Coupe
On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Tom Longwell wrote:
> OK, it may be feasible, but in general, wouldn't it be better to use
> disciplineless(sp?) cards or use another strategy?
There are many unique strategies, only available in disciplines, that
cannot be mimicked, unfortunately. There is no way to get stealth outside
of disciplines, for instance.
> The commitment to
> adding a discipline is 1/9th of your deck, which tends to preclude using
> other disclipine cards and pushes the entire deck towards Master jam.
That depends on the deck. Use of things like Distraction, The Barrens,
Fragment of the Book of Nod etc. can help immensely here. In a combat
deck, yes, this can be a big problem - but it is not always, in all decks.
> I
> would suggest using cards like Computer Hacking, Lucky Blow, Fake Out,
> or whatever if at all possible. It may not always be possible, given
> what you want to do, since there's no replacement for cards like
> Horrific Countenance outside of pro,
Day operation, Daring the Dawn (for), or Concoction of Vitality. Not
perfect, but possible - in this circumstance.
> but trying to do too much with a
> deck is a sure way to get annihilated. That's one reason why focused
> decks like Malk S/B tend to do so well.
A good set of players will stamp on Malk S&B and kill it as hard as
possible, forcing the deck to evolve away from mono-S&B.
--
James Coupe
lor...@yahoo.com (Derek Ray) wrote:
> and I've seen Protean handed out just to use Horrific Countenance.
Ayup. Back before RtI got errata'd and banned, I had a Setite deck that
added Protean to other people's vampires (usually my predator), used
Temptation to steal them and bled my prey with RtI/Horrific Countenance.
Very evil. I could still do the same in NJL with Concoction of
Vitality, but I don't like playing with RtI. It leaves a bad taste in
my mouth.
Noal
--
"I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion."
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
--George W. Bush
Don't vote for a son of a Bush.
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Before you buy.
On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:43:37 -0600, Tom Longwell
<trlo...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>OK, it may be feasible, but in general, wouldn't it be better to use>disciplineless(sp?) cards or use another strategy? The commitment to
Did you notice what sorts of disciplines are being added where?
Serpentis on Gangrel? =)
>adding a discipline is 1/9th of your deck, which tends to preclude using>other disclipine cards and pushes the entire deck towards Master jam. I
Which is why I recommended tossing a Fraggie and Barrens in, if you
are going to do this sort of thing at all. You NEED a recourse to
dump chunks of your hand.
"I play the Barrens. I will tap the Barrens to discard the Barrens..."
>would suggest using cards like Computer Hacking, Lucky Blow, Fake Out,
Most of which are significantly less effective than their
disciplinized counterparts. Lucky Blow is neat, but Potence outranks
it. Fake Out is neat, but Flash is way better at inferior. Computer
Hacking is good, but bleeds of 3 are the critical point where someone
begins being almost-forced to block if possible - and if you get
superior on ONE vampire, Govern is head-and-shoulders better.
>or whatever if at all possible. It may not always be possible, given
>what you want to do, since there's no replacement for cards like>Horrific Countenance outside of pro, but trying to do too much with a>deck is a sure way to get annihilated. That's one reason why focused>decks like Malk S/B tend to do so well. Carpe Noctem
Certainly. But tossing Obfuscate skill cards on a bunch of Presence
weenies to create a stealth-vote deck is not such an unheard of
proposition. Especially when the deck can pass a Rumors of Gehenna
and help its OWN cause. You just need to take into account WHAT
you're doing.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>I'm wondering about the feasibility of the wholesale adding of a
>discipline to a clan thru the use of Master cards (for example, adding>Potence to the Toreador or Auspex to the Followers of Set).
I've never done this exactly. What I'll do is take (using one of your
examples) any Toreadors who alreay have Potence, and then a handful of
Toreadors, and a handful or Nosferatu. Then make half my skill cards
Potence, and the other half, say Presence.
-Robert
rrgo...@earthlink.net
>>I'm wondering about the feasibility of the wholesale adding of a
>>discipline to a clan thru the use of Master cards (for example, adding
>>Potence to the Toreador or Auspex to the Followers of Set).
On somewhat similar lines, I also have a non-Clan Discipline question. I posted
it awhile ago but didn't get any response, so let's try again:
Has anyone created a deck with a non-clan discipline that is easily removable
and replacable? For example, create a Toreador deck that has Potence, but can
quickly trade Potence for Obfuscate. With a wild-card discipline, you'd be able
to make even your old, favorite decks a bit unpredictable.
Any thoughts?
> I'm wondering about the feasibility of the wholesale adding of a
> discipline to a clan thru the use of Master cards (for example, adding
> Potence to the Toreador or Auspex to the Followers of Set).
>> I'm sure it would be difficult, since first you'd have to add lots of
> extra discipline cards. Even with 10 discipline cards, you have "only"
> a 93% chance of drawing at least 1 in your first 20 cards. And, of
> course, you'd need to add the minion cards that required that new
> discipline.
>> So, rather than experiment myself, I am polling the collective wisdom
> of the group. Has anyone successfully added a discipline to a clan??
>> TIA,
> Madman
> --
I also think it could work when some vampires already has the basic level of
the disc. My experience is a Gangrel + potence deck that works quite well
since many medium and high cap vampires have it basically. It obviously a
combat deck and potence+protean+fortitude is often dissuasive :-). I could
say I burnt really *many* vampires this way even full-blooded 9 cap vampires
in one combat. Of course people blocking you have S:CE but you only need
*one* combat to finish them and very few people want to see their top
vampire going on their ash heap.
The main backward I have is that deck use *lots* of cards to work correctly.
One of my friends has a Gangrel/Potence deck that is probably the nastiest
combat deck I've seen. S:CE are almost useless against it because of the
immortal grapples, and with Wynn it attacks and, usually, kills someone
every round. Doesn't win all THAT often, but no combat deck can stand
against it, and it always burns a few vampires.
On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Eugene Earnshaw-Whyte wrote:
> every round. Doesn't win all THAT often, but no combat deck can stand
> against it, and it always burns a few vampires.
Fortitude is always a strong option to consider a tactic against it,
though Wynn can use Fortitude of course.
--
James Coupe
Fortitude is much used by my gaming group because of that deck. The combo of
drawing out the beast/immortal grapple is just deadly otherwise. It was very
depressing to try to build an Assamite deck in that environment, knowing
that a two card combo would destroy you, and there was nothing you could do.
And of course, Wynn uses damage prevention himself, in large quantities.
Ravnos do pretty well, because illusions of the kindred comes before
maneuvers. They can actually do some similar things, but they can't deal
with the S:CE.
And Tzimisce have a resource, in Blood of Acid.
In multiplayer games, the deck's predator usually gets savaged, but it tends
to eventually run out of steam before it kills all the other minions in the
game. Although it manages it once in a while.
> Well, it's also notable that you don't really *want* a discipline
card in
> your very first hand, since you can't play it. Having it at card 8, 9
or
> 10 would be good (assuming you regularly use discard phases,
It is in my opinion that you can use a discipline card on the first
turn...as the card states that put this card on any
vampire...controlled or uncontrolled.Thus you can put it on one of your
uncontrolled vanmpires on the first turn(also increasing the capacity)
Johann
[ quoted text not captured ]
mads...@my-deja.com wrote:
> It is in my opinion that you can use a discipline card on the first
> turn...as the card states that put this card on any vampire...> controlled or uncontrolled. Thus you can put it on one of your> uncontrolled vanmpires on the first turn(also increasing the
> capacity)
Incorrect. Discipline master cards may only be played by any vampire
in play. Uncontrolled vampires are not considered "in play" and
therefore may not have discipline cards played on them.
Noal McDonald
Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI
National Jyhad League Rules Team Member
--
"I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion."
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
--George W. Bush
Don't vote for a son of a Bush.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Discipline master cards may only be played [on] any vampire> in play. Uncontrolled vampires are not considered "in play" and
> therefore may not have discipline cards played on them.
Correct.
In general, nothing can be played on uncontrolled cards unless
card text explicitly overrides this.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:8bnqoj$p7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I think that you can play dis on the first turn as I agree with the first
writer you are right