Killed by seating order

Last league night I was (again) ousted by a "kind" dominate swarm that swep the whole table in less than 10 minutes of gameplay.... That accursed deck taked politics, bleed and bleed bounce, but he simply steamrolled four players in a row. Ok, here's the questions: 1 - Is this deck archetype so unusual in USA ??? 2 - Dominate swarm does not win 100% of tables, but NEVER fail to kill his prey... so, do anybody think that it's fair to be killed just becouse you seat in the wrong place ??? 3 - So, finally... WW crippled "Temptation of Greater Power" and "Hostile Takeover" 'couse they are unbalancing the game but do nothing to stop this madness ??? ToGP and HT can give you a game, but other players can still hold the line... a DOM swarm is a plain killer just by sheer speed. Ah, please, don't bother me suggesting to make decks around 20 Hell Hounds blockers, 30 Archon Investigations and so on.... Post a deck that can endure a DOM swam predator and STILL have a reasonable chance to win the table ....if such a deck exist at all. Thanks to everybody A really disappointed Akaisuisei

"Akaisuisei" <sam-ga...@libero.it> wrote in message news:Zexc9.135952$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it... > > Ah, please, don't bother me suggesting to make decks around 20 Hell Hounds > blockers, 30 Archon Investigations and so on.... Post a deck that can > endure a DOM swam predator and STILL have a reasonable chance to win the > table ....if such a deck exist at all. > How about 30 Deflections, 10 Anarch Revolts, 10 Blood Dolls? There ya go. Or just play with some defense. Just about any defense. A normal deck with 5-10 Deflection/Redirections, 10 or so Telepathic Counters, or reliable +1 intercept and a little combat for torporization. Or Protected Resources. Or a few Archon Investigations. Or some bloat. A million ways to stop it. It is, admittedly very, very strong, but not unbeatable. Dominate is still too powerful of a discipline, but I'm not sure what can be done about it. In the meantime, you just have to plan for it.

"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> ha scritto nel messaggio news:sAxc9.266552$me6.33954@sccrnsc01... > > "Akaisuisei" <sam-ga...@libero.it> wrote in message > news:Zexc9.135952$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it... > > > > Ah, please, don't bother me suggesting to make decks around 20 Hell Hounds > > blockers, 30 Archon Investigations and so on.... Post a deck that can > > endure a DOM swam predator and STILL have a reasonable chance to win the > > table ....if such a deck exist at all. > > > How about 30 Deflections, 10 Anarch Revolts, 10 Blood Dolls? 10 Anarch Revolts ....what the....???? He played them to kill me quicker !!!!! And my Lasombra deck already hosted 20 Deflections 8 Blood Dolls and 6 Minion Tap !!! (and I Played Them to no efforts) And intercept is not a solution too: Turn 1 - he made 4 transfers - out Samson and Mustapha Raman / I influenced Gratiano for 4 Turn 2 - Samson got DOM Samson go with Govern and Threats for a 5 pool bleed Mustapha go with Govern and Threats for a 4 pool bleed Out Gloria Giovanni / Out Gratiano (I'm now at 13 pool) Turn 3 - Mustapha got DOM Samson played Seduction/Govern/Threats for a 5 pool bleed (deflected and torporized) Mustapha played Seduction/Govern/Threats for a 5 pool bleed Gloria played Seduction/Govern/Foreshadowing Destruction for a 6 pool bleed I'm down to 2 pool I play Minion Tap and got Suddened by my predator Out Ohanna Turn 4 - Mustapha goes hunting Gloria played Seduction/Bonding for 2 pool (deflected again) Ohanna Played Seduction/Threats for 3 pool --- ousted --- Really fun is'nt it ??? And if you try to intercept, really soon you influence your blocker just to see a cute "Pentex Subversion" hitting him and the same movie on the screen. > There ya go. Or just play with some defense. Just about any defense. A > normal deck with 5-10 Deflection/Redirections, 10 or so Telepathic Counters, or > reliable +1 intercept and a little combat for torporization. Or Protected > Resources. Or a few Archon Investigations. Or some bloat. > > A million ways to stop it. Ok, I'm here to wait your advice: Everybody out there!! please, post me a winning deck that can endure this ! [ quoted text not captured ]

> Ok, I'm here to wait your advice: Everybody out there!! please, post me a > winning deck that can endure this ! This is an Peter Bakija special (in fact I scooped it off of the Ithica Website, so credit goes where it is due) It is weenie potence. If you are seated as the prey of a weenie dom deck then you rush all of his vampires into torpor, and hope your next predator isn't playing the same thing. The Nosferatu Hate You! (version 6.0) Crypt: 2x Hesina Kesi (1) pot 1x Paul DiCarlo, The Alpha (2) pot 1x KoKo (2) pot 2x Duck (3) pot, obf 2x Agatha (4) POT, obf 2x Olivia (5) POT, OBF, Bishop 1x Nigel the Shunned (5) POT, obf 1x Beast, Leatherface of Detroit (7) POT, OBF Average of 3.5 Library: 4x Haven Uncovered 3x Potence 3x Blood Doll 2x Fame 2x Dreams of the Sphinx 12x Immortal Grapple 10x Undead Strength 10x Torn Signpost 4x Fists of Death 4x Disarm 2x Decapitate 8x Behind You 8x Taste of Vitae 11x Bum's Rush 6x Computer Hacking 1x Delaying Tactics -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

"Akaisuisei" <sam-ga...@libero.it> wrote in message news:<Zexc9.135952$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it>... > Last league night I was (again) ousted by a "kind" dominate swarm that swep > the whole table in less than 10 minutes of gameplay.... House rule of no mono-discipline decks. Or simply walk from the table when you see the deck. Hardly what you're looking for I know, but disgusting piece of trash decks like that deserve no less imo. Yes the purists will moan and cry but personally I think the game really breaks down when people play mono or no discipline weenie goofball decks. However for a real suggestion, try atonements and cats guidance decks. T

Akaisuisei <sam-ga...@libero.it> escribió en el mensaje de noticias Zexc9.135952$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it... > Last league night I was (again) ousted by a "kind" dominate swarm that swep > the whole table in less than 10 minutes of gameplay.... > That accursed deck taked politics, bleed and bleed bounce, but he simply > steamrolled four players in a row. > <snipped> > Ah, please, don't bother me suggesting to make decks around 20 Hell Hounds > blockers, 30 Archon Investigations and so on.... Post a deck that can > endure a DOM swam predator and STILL have a reasonable chance to win the > table ....if such a deck exist at all. > Just one card. Atonement Well, any kind of midcap deck should work fine against this horde. An animalism based deck, plenty of atonements and cat's guidance, with carrion crows-aid from bats for combat. A tha deck with 20+ cryptic missions and 3-7 cap crypt, weenie potence, outcast mage decks, warghoul deck, obedience also works well. A deck build around black cat with concealed+magnums and a few atonements... There are lots of posibilities. But you are right, this decks are autist-killers, and as such they are usually highly unstopables. A few weekends ago we sought a blood brothers deck do it fine against a dom swarm, also. Althought he had 8 gestalts and 6 coagulated entities, along with 6 minor boons.(Xavi managed to play 4 of them on gloria, ingrid, mustafa and cameron, and survive with just one pool) [ quoted text not captured ]

Greatings Talonz I agree with you that the DOM Bleed悶rs are defect, I惴 not sure I would say broken, but hard to hande yes. Personaly I use a Malkavian Antitribu deck to pay them back. With Kindred Sprirts you can bleed the Methusela who brought the shit whereever he愀 seated, and with Nose of the Hound and Flamethrowers, you can keep there numbers down. Happy hunting Ronnie

Another obvious way to fight them is with votes : all the one where you lose 1 pool by minion controlled, of course ; and also, when you vote, you can chose who you attack, as with rush decks. I'd say, if such a deck hits the table, no matter where you are : destroy them. Then, you can get on to serious business among correct people. If everytime the dom weenies get everybody against them, no matter what, and then die, they will stop playing them. Trouble is : in tournament, what to do against them ? Same answers as above. Easier said then done, though... -- Orpheus http://no.exit.free .fr (online novel) http://cypheranima.free.fr (goth band) "I believe that life is a game, that life is a cruel joke, and that life is what happens when you're alive and that you might as well lie back and enjoy it". Neil Gaiman "RonnieE" <the_crypt...@yahoo.se> a écrit dans le message news: 6113e06e.02090...@posting.google.com... > Greatings Talonz > I agree with you that the DOM Bleed´ers are defect, I´m not sure I > would say broken, but hard to hande yes. > Personaly I use a Malkavian Antitribu deck to pay them back. With > Kindred Sprirts you can bleed the Methusela who brought the shit > whereever he´s seated, and with Nose of the Hound and Flamethrowers, [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 23:41:12 GMT, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> said: Chris> A million ways to stop it. It is, admittedly very, very Chris> strong, but not unbeatable. Dominate is still too powerful of Chris> a discipline, but I'm not sure what can be done about it. In Chris> the meantime, you just have to plan for it. Yup. I have to agree that Dom is maybe a bit too powerful, as evidenced by the fact that it's *very* rare to see a tournament finals deck that does not use Dominate - it happens, but more often than not the finals decks all pack a ton of dominate. Bleed bounce, Deflection in particular, is something that *everyone* seems to pack in tournaments, and it unbalances the play a bit. If you don't have bleed bounce, most of the bleeds on the table are going to land in your lap. Not fun. I would very much like to see something that hoses Deflection (no, DI or Contigency Planning don't count :). I'm tired of seeing ton'o'Deflection decks in tournaments I run.... :/ //Petri

"XZealot" <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<FpAc9.35262$vY2.9...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>... > > Ok, I'm here to wait your advice: Everybody out there!! > > please, post me a > > winning deck that can endure this ! > > This is an Peter Bakija special (in fact I scooped it off of the Ithica > Website, so credit goes where it is due) > > It is weenie potence. If you are seated as the prey of a weenie dom deck > then you rush all of his vampires into torpor, and hope your next predator > isn't playing the same thing. > > The Nosferatu Hate You! (version 6.0) (snip) And if your new predator is playing the same deck, you rush his minions too! While you may be handling to your grand-predator a VP on a silver plate, as long as they only get 1 VP, you can still win the game (if you manage to oust your last opponent while nobody else got a VP). If fact, this strategy was demonstrated (unsuccessfully, I admit) at Gen*Con this year. With a vote deck, I'll also admit, but the end result is about the same (we took to nicknaming it the "salmon gambit", since you go "up river"). Frederic.

> And my Lasombra deck already hosted 20 Deflections 8 Blood Dolls and 6 > Minion Tap !!! (and I Played Them to no efforts) > 20 Deflections should do the job. I wonder why you don't draw them, when you need it (I bet so do you). Maybe add some Direct Interventions to counter the Seductions (he can play only one per action). Or try adding some small Dom vamps too, which can deflect, until the big one is out. This helps against the Pentex too. Atonement is very strong against weenies, but you have will barely have the time to equip it (you have to get it in you starting hand). And now the most important thing: Convince the table to gang up against this vicious deck (should be easy, as your mates at your playgroup knows it). Play with four decks against him and he will have no fun anymore. That's what we do in Frankfurt. If someone dares to show up with such a boring deck, he is in trouble with the whole table (just in the game of course :o) ). I bet, he can't do anything against a straight rush-deck. And if you all vote against him, he will have no chance. Joscha

In message <NPyc9.136277$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it>, Akaisuisei <sam-ga...@libero.it> writes: >Turn 1 - he made 4 transfers - out Samson and Mustapha Raman / I >influenced Gratiano for 4 You're doing a number of things wrong here. Or bad luck. Assuming it isn't bad luck: First of all, a weenie archetype is something you should be expecting to see. Well-played weenie decks are powerful, even if it's just Computer Hacking. Your first vampire out is Gratiano, but you'd seen Samson and Mustapha come out. So you should have adapted and brought out one of the smaller vampires with Dominate, if you had any in your uncontrolled region. A starting uncontrolled region with a minimum vampire of 8 is a dangerous thing to have. Plan for something else. Alternatively, plan for Zillah's Valley in your deck, or Information Highway, or similar. Zillah's Valley is good because, for 1 extra pool, Gratiano would have been out a turn earlier in your scenario and would have been able to save you from at least one of those bleeds, had you had the defence in hand - either a bounce or a block/Obedience/block or whatever. Zillah's Valley, unlike Info Highway, also benefits from being uncontestable by simply being played, not put into play. (Info Highway wouldn't be as good here, either, but a deck with a 6 cap, say, might benefit.) Turn one, therefore, your master phase was wasted. Playing big vampires, you lose out on minion phase actions. Therefore, you'll want to utilise the master phase a lot more effectively, to compensate. Turn two, again. No master phase utilisation, penalties incurred. Had any vampire been out, you could have bounced - the problem of not utilising your first turn effectively stacks up. Had Gratiano been out, you could have played one of a multitude of cards on him - your Minion Tap could happen *now*, taking him down to (say) 4. You could put a Guardian Angel on them, scuppering the chances of Dominate Kine or Bonding being too problematic if you go for the block option. You could play Protected Resources, if you weren't going for a bleed deck - Lasombra politics is a powerful option, with things like Govern the Unaligned for superior. Any number of Master cards can get Sudden-ed, of course. But if you get hit by a Sudden early, he can't play Dominate that turn - that could be two bleed you save yourself, and you cycle better. Your first choice vampire has been an 8 cap, reducing your options significantly in terms of vampire diversity. This is all well and good, but lacks a certain amount of planning. If your first choice is an 8 cap, you'd better have access to offence and defence from the same vampire. Being able to act and then Wake is nigh on essential. Yes, this will slow your deck down. No, you won't be able to go on the rampage as much as you want. But you need to defend, absolutely and completely. You need the Wakes so you can play Obedience when your 8 cap gets rushed. You need the Wake so you can Bounce when you get bled for 7. Or so you can play Telepathic Counter. Or Delaying Tactics, when that Banishment looms. Or Baltimore Purge looms. 8 cap vampires without Wakes in your deck or other forms of untap or whatever are begging for a swarm to come past. Your deck brings out one vampire for 8 pool, but doesn't bounce more than once per turn with them, and doesn't take actions. In no visible way have you compensated for a big vampire hampering you with lack of actions and lack of blocks/reactions (if they tap you). You haven't sped up bringing out the vampire. You haven't multiplied your actions. You haven't, indeed, taken any actions. Call Banishment and get rid of one of them, even if temporarily. Call Rabble Razing, if he's playing true weenies (less useful once they go to four cap, but both Mustapha and Samson would be in range, even with a Dominate skill card). Call Dramatic Upheaval - knowing "I won't be able to deal with some decks, I'll get myself out of here" is a perfectly legitimate defensive option, as well as an offensive option ("I'll move in for the kill"). If you can't deal with weenies, playing with the Lasombra might have been the wrong option for you - play a Prince deck and Parity Shift them, for instance. If you're not very good at adapting to certain decks on you, shifting your deck to one which affords you different options might be a strong option - assuming you can find one you like. Any weenie deck, not just a weenie DOM deck, is going to be able to obliterate you quite quickly. If your prey was able to torporise the vampires on each bounce, making deals with them would have been appropriate. "Look, I'll leave off you for a couple of turns if you'll take him out. You really don't want him with 6 more pool and 4 vampires, maybe 5, doing that every turn, do you? He's going to steam-roller through me, and you won't have enough to beat him. Take one or two out, and see how much that settles everything down - after all, you can deal with me, I only have Gratiano out and I'll be being defensive now anyway, so I'm not going to be bleeding you for 9 anytime soon." Maybe you win, maybe you lose. Definitely worth exploring, however. Bounty will afford you a few options here, too. Effective utilisation of Master phases. Maybe you don't want to boost your vampires with master cards. If you know you're not going to be able to deal with weenie bleed then, as well as playing cards like Protected Resources, Major Boon might well be an option for you. Take 1 bleed cross-table to be able to force someone else to take it. Conspire with your grand-predator. Offer them something they want - a few points from that vote, a bounce to their predator (your grand-prey) once in a while to hold them off, a rush somewhere they want in return, a Consanguineous Boon that picks Toreador for once. Of course, if you only have (say) Bleed and Bounce yourself, you're pretty screwed. If you don't give yourself options, leaving a gaping hole for people to walk through, you'll lose out. -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D Don't just clap. What's the use of that? EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 You there, gorgeous creature. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D Stop...that...bus!

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:xROKt3lV...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <NPyc9.136277$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it>, Akaisuisei > <sam-ga...@libero.it> writes: > >Turn 1 - he made 4 transfers - out Samson and Mustapha Raman / I > >influenced Gratiano for 4 > > You're doing a number of things wrong here. Or bad luck. Assuming it > isn't bad luck: > Thank you James. I agree with just about everything you said. I know *I* didn't have the patience to write a response like that.

These seem to be the general solutions to your dilemma. I'll address the inadequacey of each in turn: 1. "20 Deflections should do the job" Too focused an approach. As with playing 20 Majesties, if you don't sit next to the deck which is overly focused on the element to which this card is the answer, you choke on them and die. 2. Mid-caps and Atonement Doesn't do enough, IME. Look at his transcription of the game in question. I'd submit that this is an average performance for the dominate swarm deck. If the Atoned deck is running *perfectly* against a weenie dominate deck that is running *adequately*, one might stave off death for a turn or two. A lot can happen in a few turns, but the odds are against this succeeding. "Perfect vs. adequate" nulls a large range of possible solutions. 3. Play weenie deck "X" This is probably the only reliable answer, both in terms of probability of success against the offending deck, and the likelihood of winning games against the broad range of other decks next to which you're likely to be seated. This is, however, fighting broken with broken. Now there are two broken decks floating around the playgroup. This can lead to everyone needing to play weenie decks. Not a solution, IMHO. 4. Whole table gangs up on it immediately Presuming the whole table is playing decks of moderate speed, you'll likely be dead anyway before anyone else has resources available to curb the offending deck. Also, IME it's very difficult to actually get a table to do this, for a variety of reasons. Two of the most common seem to be: A) One or more players percieve a benefit from Anarch Revolts, and B) If one player decides to mind his business, then each adjacent player retains the standard demand upon his resources, thereby tying up a whole block of potential allies. This method can also lead to hard feelings. You can argue that it's the fault of the weenie player, but that's small consolation when people who share a niche hobby are angry with one another. That about sums up my counter-arguments. Over the past year or two of playing in a heavily weenified environment, this is the deck that's been most successful. It incorperates bits of elements 1-3, and aims to still be effective against other decks. Deck Name: PRE dom for cel anti-weenie vote Created By: David Cherryholmes Description: Crypt: (13 cards, Min: 15, Max: 24, Avg: 4.92) ---------------------------------------------- 1 Brachah for CEL PRE 5, Brujah 1 Jost Werner ani AUS PRE 6, Toreador Antitribu 1 Gael Pilet chi FOR MEL pre 6, Daughters of Cacophony 1 Delilah Monroe for MEL pre 4, Daughters of Cacophony 1 Rake aus cel pot PRE 6, Brujah, Prince 1 Ramiel DuPre aus cel dom PRE 5, Toreador 1 Violette Prentiss dom PRE 4, Ventrue 1 Angela Preston for MEL PRE 5, Daughters of Cacophony 1 Gideon Fontaine PRE 3, Ventrue 1 Jazz Wentworth dom for PRE 5, Ventrue 1 Mariana Gilbert cel PRE 4, Toreador 1 Ranjan Rishi DOM for PRE 5, Ventrue 1 Victoria Ash aus cel dom PRE 6, Toreador, Primogen Library: (80 cards) ------------------- Master (12 cards) 1 Celerity 2 Effective Management 1 Fortitude 1 Information Highway 6 Minion Tap 1 Ventrue Headquarters Action (10 cards) 2 Atonement 2 Charming Lobby 1 Distraction 2 Enchant Kindred 1 Force of Will 2 Rapid Healing Action Modifier (32 cards) 2 Aire of Elation 4 Alacrity 2 Awe 8 Bewitching Oration 4 Daring the Dawn 2 Freak Drive 1 Missing Voice, The 1 Siren's Lure 8 Voter Captivation Political Action (17 cards) 2 Anarchist Uprising 2 Ancilla Empowerment 3 Conservative Agitation 2 Domain Challenge 1 Dramatic Upheaval 5 Kine Resources Contested 1 Praxis Seizure: Chicago 1 Praxis Seizure: Paris Reaction (4 cards) 4 Deflection Combat (5 cards) 3 Majesty 2 Skin of Steel Fairly standard vote-bloat. The stealth modifiers don't address the weenie issue directly, but they make the deck more broadly effective. If it looks like you won't be needing the stealth, then discard them. Minion tap your vampires to no less than two if you believe you will need the stealth options (Daring the Dawn/Alacrity), otherwise go to one and wait for the Voter Cap. Generally treat your mid-caps as you would weenies, since hopefully you've recouped their expense. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu

"Petri Wessman" <or...@orava.org> wrote in message news:87wuq4u...@ws16.smallplanet.fi... > On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 23:41:12 GMT, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> said: > > I would very much like to see something that hoses Deflection (no, DI > or Contigency Planning don't count :). I'm tired of seeing > ton'o'Deflection decks in tournaments I run.... :/ > Well, at this point, Perfect Clarity, Spying Mission, and Contingency Planning are all there. And Psychomachia/Change of Target/Red Herring if you're not bleeding at stealth (although I really loved Psychomachia when it could be used on stealthed bleeds). Contingency Planning is absolutely better than most people think it is. Often times, I am better off for simply having a CP in my hand, without even having to play it. I bleed with Julia Prima for 7 with 4 stealth, my prey glares at their hand, mutters something about "irresponsible bleeding" and removes 7 pool. If I had no CP in hand, I would never have dared to bleed for more than 2 or 3. At the nationals, I used Contingency Planning to oust a prey who was down to 1 pool. He had been counting on his one Deflection for defense, but it was all for naught. Contingency Planning is *not* an amazingly good card. Cost-for-effect wise, it sucks. But you must, must, must plan for bounce, and if nothing else is available to you, it's your duty to pack a few, and they are definitely better than nothing. And with CP, all bleed decks now have at least some way to get around bleed bounce. Think of it like insurance. I take out a policy to protect my ability to bleed for 7 (my "car" as it were). The cost of this policy is one card in hand. As long as I continue to pay (keep that one card in hand), my car is protected. If someone plays a Deflection, causing me to ram my car into a retaining wall at 60 MPH, I call up the insurance company to replace it. I don't get as good a car as before, but I still can get around (I say, "oops... without Contingency Planning, I could have only bled you safely for 1, so let's go back and pretend I only bled you for one... and get rid of that bounce card, too"). In return, I have to pay a deductible (1 pool and a MPA), and the insurance company cancels my policy because I'm now too much of an insurance risk. The thing is that dominate bleed is an extremely good strategy, so it almost needs an equally good defense, in bleed bounce. The problem, from what I can see, is that both the offense and the defense were given to one discipline. There needs to be some diversification. This has been done a little bit, but it's not enough. Auspex has always been a pretty good defensive discipline, whether just through intercept or its own limited bounce; Serpentis now has a little bit of bleed reduction, coupled with Banner of Neutrality that's also useable by Settites; and the Kiasyd have Folderol. Archon Investigation and Protected Resources offer bleed defense to everyone. But it still remains that the best bleed discipline is dominate, and the best bleed defense is dominate. Bleh.

On Mon, 02 Sep 2002 14:59:12 GMT, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> said: Chris> Well, at this point, Perfect Clarity, Spying Mission, and Chris> Contingency Planning are all there. And Psychomachia/Change of Chris> Target/Red Herring if you're not bleeding at stealth (although Chris> I really loved Psychomachia when it could be used on stealthed Chris> bleeds). Yeah, defence against bounce for the bleeding meth exists (the stuff you mentioned above). They are all well and good, but what's missing from the game - unless I'm forgetting something - is better defense against bleed bounce to you. Oh, you can always block (need a specialized ton'o'wakes deck to block bounced bleeds *and* your predator's) or reduce (needs specific disciplines / independent). However, I would love to see a card along the lines of "<reaction card>, costs N blood, requires some-common-discipline: burn a reaction card as it is played. That card has no effect, cost in blood is retrieved yadda yadda" Yes, we already have DI, but it costs a pool and eats up a master slot. Chris> Contingency Planning is absolutely better than most Chris> people think it is. Nice reasoning, and probably correct - I'll have to give CP a try. It still does not help when half the table is bouncing bleeds to you, though ;). //Petri

"Petri Wessman" <or...@orava.org> wrote in message news:878z2k2...@ws16.smallplanet.fi... > > Nice reasoning, and probably correct - I'll have to give CP a try. It > still does not help when half the table is bouncing bleeds to you, > though ;). > True. I kind of lump that in with "bleed defense" though. You're simply having to worry about 2 methuselahs bleeding instead of 1. And table intimidation goes a long way toward making that idiot bleeding for 7 at +3 stealth tone it down a little. I *do* like the idea of a card that can right wrongs and left rights, so to speak, by making a vampire bleed the "right" methuselah. I mentioned before (probably multiple times, knowing my tendency to repeat myself) an OPT card that I really would like to see printed called True Sight. Requires Chimerstry. At inferior, it's a reaction that causes a vampire bleeding the "wrong" methuselah to now be bleeding his controller's prey. At superior, it's an action modifier that causes the acting vampire to bleed his controller's prey. Really, I think something like that is needed. It can be in an off-discipline like Chimerstry so that it wouldn't upset balance too much, but would probably be enough just to shake things up a little. But I also think that some more spreading around of bounce to other disciplines would help a little too. Nothing stronger than Deflection, but just something so that *everyone* at a table isn't playing dominate in order to be competitive.

"Petri Wessman" <or...@orava.org> wrote in message news:87wuq4u...@ws16.smallplanet.fi... > Yup. I have to agree that Dom is maybe a bit too powerful, as > evidenced by the fact that it's *very* rare to see a tournament finals > deck that does not use Dominate - You mean aside from 4 of the 5 NA Championship finals decks this year? :) Xian

"Akaisuisei" <sam-ga...@libero.it> wrote in message news:Zexc9.135952$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it... > 2 - Dominate swarm does not win 100% of tables, but NEVER fail to kill his > prey... so, do anybody think that it's fair to be killed just becouse you > seat in the wrong place ??? I can definitely fail to kill its prey. You may need a little bit of table help, but at the Origins qualifier this year, I outlasted a weenie DOM swarm, and got a table win with a Computer Hacking (admittedly, it was a little weak, but it was still pretty brutal to be its prey) predator. > Ah, please, don't bother me suggesting to make decks around 20 Hell Hounds > blockers, 30 Archon Investigations and so on.... Post a deck that can > endure a DOM swam predator and STILL have a reasonable chance to win the > table ....if such a deck exist at all. http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/xian.htm#murmur This is basically the deck I played at Origins...by adding maybe a little bit more Wakes and/or Atonement or something, you'll have a chance of getting something done. Note that *many* decks cannot survive a weenie DOM horde predator, and a lot are simply going to die against it. It's asking a lot to have a deck that will both be able to withstand a DOM horde *and* win a table. Xian

> This is basically the deck I played at Origins...by adding maybe a little bit > more Wakes and/or Atonement or something, you'll have a chance of getting > something done. Just about Atonement - it was near worthless in my game 'cause Seduction ignores even +27 intercept if you have just one minion out ! > Note that *many* decks cannot survive a weenie DOM horde predator, and a lot are > simply going to die against it. It's asking a lot to have a deck that will both > be able to withstand a DOM horde *and* win a table. So I guess right.... This is really sad Thanks to everybody Akaisuisei

Akaisuisei wrote: >>This is basically the deck I played at Origins...by adding maybe a little bit >>more Wakes and/or Atonement or something, you'll have a chance of getting >>something done. > > > Just about Atonement - it was near worthless in my game 'cause Seduction > ignores even +27 intercept if you have just one minion out ! Yes, but you only had one minion because you chose to bring Gratiano out. A couple of 4 caps would provide much better protection, at a similar cost. Why would you want +27 intercept if he can only have +1 stealth, at most? What you would want is as many blockers as he has bleeders (if you want to block instead of bounce). You can do that by playing weenies, by using wakes, and/or by rushing his minions, for example. See James' post, he points out several mistakes you might have made. >>Note that *many* decks cannot survive a weenie DOM horde predator, and a lot are >>simply going to die against it. It's asking a lot to have a deck that will both >>be able to withstand a DOM horde *and* win a table. > > > So I guess right.... Not quite. The same can be said of many other decks: not many decks can survive S&B, or weenie POT, or Brujah IG, or Tzimisce 'I block everything' (as prey), or any other number of decks. The trick is chosing a deck that will have a fair chance against those you are most likely to meet. This, of course, goes back to meta-game: if your local game is mostly made up of slow equipment decks (for example), a weenie DOM deck will win every time. But I've seen tournaments where weenie DOM decks didn't get a single VP because everybody else was playing rush combat (and vice-versa), and other similar situations. I've also made 'anti-weenie' decks, that can easily win a game if they have a weenie predator (deflections and lots of wakes), but won't get a single VP in any other position. It's just the nature of the game, weenie decks are strong, but not stronger that many other highly focused decks. > This is really sad Don't give up yet. :) Flux

In message <BHQc9.140452$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it>, "Akaisuisei" <sam-ga...@libero.it> mumbled something about: >Just about Atonement - it was near worthless in my game 'cause Seduction >ignores even +27 intercept if you have just one minion out ! So get more than one minion out. One Big Vampire decks die, and this is why. >> Note that *many* decks cannot survive a weenie DOM horde predator, and a >lot are >> simply going to die against it. It's asking a lot to have a deck that >will both >> be able to withstand a DOM horde *and* win a table. > >So I guess right.... > >This is really sad No, you guess wrongly. One will be posted soon that both withstood a weenie DOM predator, *and* won a tournament. It's not that difficult. The trick is, as James has told you, when you see weenie DOM, to: (a) leave more than one minion untapped, so Seduction fails (b) not keep trying to get out Big Huge Guys, leaving yourself open to bleeds of 12+ (c) start harassing the table into helping you -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

Akaisuisei wrote: >> Note that *many* decks cannot survive a weenie DOM horde predator, and a > lot are >> simply going to die against it. It's asking a lot to have a deck that > will both >> be able to withstand a DOM horde *and* win a table. > > So I guess right.... > > This is really sad Pshaw. Rush combat. Survies quite nicely against DOM horde, and can win a table. Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "I need a doctor, kinda, sorta. What's wrong with me? He said there's a skid mark on my aorta and there's no remedy." -The Donnas

"Akaisuisei" <sam-ga...@libero.it> wrote in message news:BHQc9.140452$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it... [ quoted text not captured ] I think a weenie animalism deck would do well. You have +1 intercept with cats guidance. And if you catch them, they will go to torpor (trap + carrion crows + aid from bats). Peter

In message <cW_c9.9024$HY3.2...@newsc.telia.net>, "Peter Laan" <plnew...@yahoo.se> mumbled something about: >"Akaisuisei" <sam-ga...@libero.it> wrote in message >news:BHQc9.140452$lu5.3...@twister1.libero.it... >> >> So I guess right.... >> >> This is really sad > >I think a weenie animalism deck would do well. You have +1 intercept with >cats guidance. And if you catch them, they will go to torpor (trap + carrion >crows + aid from bats). Actually, almost any Animalism deck that can get two vampires out on the table will do well. Tap both of them so he doesn't know who to Seduce, then use the Animalism untaps to blow away weenies as they come charging in with Governs. A deck like this depends critically on its speed -- kill its first three vampires WHILE blocking its first three bleeds, and it'll never oust anything unless its predator is a complete twit. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <qee9nuo5d76aijrsk...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: >Actually, almost any Animalism deck that can get two vampires out on the >table will do well. Tap both of them so he doesn't know who to Seduce, >then use the Animalism untaps to blow away weenies as they come charging >in with Governs. A deck like this depends critically on its speed -- >kill its first three vampires WHILE blocking its first three bleeds, and >it'll never oust anything unless its predator is a complete twit. Such a Dominate deck, however, might well benefit from tossing in half a dozen Sleeping Mind. Useful against the weenie Animalism crowd, those using Read the Winds (bigger Tzimisce, usually), 2nd Tradition, Special Report and so on. In such an instance, you'd need careful balancing of Wakes vs, say, Guard Dogs. [ quoted text not captured ]

the_crypt...@yahoo.se (RonnieE) wrote in message news:<6113e06e.02090...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Totally agree with what you said. !Malk decks have a lot of upstream (or cross table) options. I've been experimenting with a !Malk Lunatic Erruption deck. It's tough to get that many Lunatic Erruptions (my deck uses 8-10, depending on how I've built it, and it took me months to find that many), but it offers a lot of table control. In a situation with weenie bleeders, you can either LE thier predator to force them to thin out the weenies a little, or LE the weenies and force them to attack you, which is better than having them bleed, especially if you've already got the flamethrowers out. JSpektr

>And intercept is not a solution too: > >Turn 1 - he made 4 transfers - out Samson and Mustapha Raman / I >influenced Gratiano for 4 >Turn 2 - Samson got DOM > Samson go with Govern and Threats for a 5 pool bleed > Mustapha go with Govern and Threats for a 4 pool bleed > Out Gloria Giovanni / Out Gratiano (I'm now at 13 pool) >Turn 3 - Mustapha got DOM > Samson played Seduction/Govern/Threats for a 5 pool bleed >(deflected and torporized) > Mustapha played Seduction/Govern/Threats for a 5 pool bleed > Gloria played Seduction/Govern/Foreshadowing Destruction for a >6 pool bleed > I'm down to 2 pool > I play Minion Tap and got Suddened by my predator > Out Ohanna >Turn 4 - Mustapha goes hunting > Gloria played Seduction/Bonding for 2 pool (deflected again) > Ohanna Played Seduction/Threats for 3 pool --- ousted --- You're right. There isn't much defense against this sort of start. Actually, I fail to see why intercept is relevant to your problem unless Bonding at superior was mentioned somewhere. The metagame defense against this is that your prey has had several turns to build up defenses and the rest of the table has every reason to kill the weenie Dom deck dead. The second VP fight is quite a bit tougher. One of our tournaments this year saw a weenie Dom deck in the finals (top seed). Tzimisce intercept/combat as its prey. Killed that deck with only a bit of effort. EuroBrujah with a lot of 2nds next. Stalled for a while, then made a push, but a crosstable DI on Bonding saved the EuroBrujah. With that failure, it was finally dead, though a success would have likely meant a sweep. Took two essentially intercept combat decks and the other two players lending aid where they could to shut it down. About what I'd expect when good decks are played. General comment. Building a deck with a "guaranteed" VP isn't hard. But, all of them tend to have the weakness of falling over if they lose enough steam killing their first prey or trying to kill their second. If you don't want to see such decks, need to point out that the goal isn't killing just one prey. Still, there's a problem as such decks have the potential for quite a bit more than 1 VP a game. >Really fun is'nt it ??? Not fun, but it was a huge advantage to being its predator in our tournament having everyone want it dead. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:XQnT9FM2...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... > In message <qee9nuo5d76aijrsk...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray > <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: > >Actually, almost any Animalism deck that can get two vampires out on the > >table will do well. Tap both of them so he doesn't know who to Seduce, > >then use the Animalism untaps to blow away weenies as they come charging > >in with Governs. A deck like this depends critically on its speed -- > >kill its first three vampires WHILE blocking its first three bleeds, and > >it'll never oust anything unless its predator is a complete twit. > > Such a Dominate deck, however, might well benefit from tossing in half a > dozen Sleeping Mind. Useful against the weenie Animalism crowd, those > using Read the Winds (bigger Tzimisce, usually), 2nd Tradition, Special > Report and so on. > > In such an instance, you'd need careful balancing of Wakes vs, say, > Guard Dogs. What use would wakes and guard dogs be against sleeping mind? You could also just leave all your vamps untapped. If you only have two, misdirection + seduction + sleeping mind would still work. But how often would that combo turn up? I don't think I have ever played against a weenie dominate deck though. Peter

Peter Laan wrote: > "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message >> In such an instance, you'd need careful balancing of Wakes vs, say, >> Guard Dogs. > > What use would wakes and guard dogs be against sleeping mind? You > could also just leave all your vamps untapped. If you only have two, > misdirection + seduction + sleeping mind would still work. But how > often would that combo turn up? I don't think I have ever played > against a weenie dominate deck though. > > Peter Sleeping mind at Superior does not prevent wakes or forced awakenings, as these cards do not actually untap the vampire. Guard dogs (and Rats warnings, 2nd traditions) are affected and cannot be used against superior sleeping mind (as they untap the minion). Guard dogs are mentioned IMO for when you are not bothered with sleeping mind, as it is then preferrable to WWEF. If you only have two minions in play to block with however, a seduction and sleeping mind (inferior) combo [seduce one, sleeping mind (inf) the other] will get past you. -JTP

"John" <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8Nfd9.246054$v53.13...@news3.calgary.shaw.ca... > Peter Laan wrote: > > What use would wakes and guard dogs be against sleeping mind? You > > could also just leave all your vamps untapped. If you only have two, > > misdirection + seduction + sleeping mind would still work. But how > > often would that combo turn up? I don't think I have ever played > > against a weenie dominate deck though. > > > > Peter > > Sleeping mind at Superior does not prevent wakes or forced awakenings, as > these cards do not actually untap the vampire. Guard dogs (and Rats > warnings, 2nd traditions) are affected and cannot be used against superior > sleeping mind (as they untap the minion). > > Guard dogs are mentioned IMO for when you are not bothered with sleeping > mind, as it is then preferrable to WWEF. The Sleeping Mind at superiour says: "Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action, and tapped minions cannot block this action." I couldn't find any text migration entry on WWs web site. So WWEF would not work. Peter

Peter Laan wrote: > The Sleeping Mind at superiour says: "Only usable when the acting > vampire's action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this > action, and tapped minions cannot block this action." I couldn't find > any text migration entry on WWs web site. So WWEF would not work. > > Peter Well logic tells us that.. but this is VTES <kidding> check: (if I havn't killed the link) http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3B8E7B56.20B40F8A%40white-wolf.com or http://minilien.com/?a5BKaQ1HfQ (same stuff, different link) (and thanks again to redya for pointing out the link reducer) Wake technically does not untap a minion. It allows a minion to block as if untapped. So your woken (or forced awakened but not RW,FA, or 2ndT) vampire can block as if untapped. Apparently the bit about "tapped minions cannot block" is considered redundant as tapped minions can never block (card text not withstanding). -JTP

"John" <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Cumd9.257669$Ag2.13...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca... > check: (if I havn't killed the link) > http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3B8E7B56.20B40F8A%40 white-wolf.com > or > http://minilien.com/?a5BKaQ1HfQ > (same stuff, different link) > (and thanks again to redya for pointing out the link reducer) > > Wake technically does not untap a minion. It allows a minion to block as if untapped. > So your woken (or forced awakened but not RW,FA, or 2ndT) vampire can > block as if untapped. Apparently the bit about "tapped minions cannot block" is considered redundant > as tapped minions can never block (card text not withstanding). Thanks! I think I understand now. :) Peter

On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Peter Laan wrote: > The Sleeping Mind at superiour says: "Only usable when the acting vampire's > action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action, and tapped > minions cannot block this action." I couldn't find any text migration entry > on WWs web site. So WWEF would not work. > > Peter You must have an older copy of The Sleeping Mind. The card text at http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/Cardlist.html for The Sleeping Mind at superior is: "Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action." -Matt

In message <hjld9.9239$HY3.2...@newsc.telia.net>, Peter Laan <plnew...@yahoo.se> writes: >The Sleeping Mind at superiour says: "Only usable when the acting vampire's >action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action, and tapped >minions cannot block this action." I couldn't find any text migration entry >on WWs web site. So WWEF would not work. No, it doesn't: [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this action. [DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.44.02090...@fnord.io.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Why isn't there a migration text entry for sleeping mind on WWs web site? Peter

In message <XCbd9.9185$HY3.2...@newsc.telia.net>, "Peter Laan" <plnew...@yahoo.se> mumbled something about: >"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message >news:XQnT9FM2...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk... >> In such an instance, you'd need careful balancing of Wakes vs, say, >> Guard Dogs. > >What use would wakes and guard dogs be against sleeping mind? You could also Wake beats inferior Sleeping Mind, since the vampire does not actually untap. Guard Dogs still works if a minion is Seduced -- though that minion can't actually attempt to block that action, it lets you cycle a card and untap a vampire. >just leave all your vamps untapped. If you only have two, misdirection + >seduction + sleeping mind would still work. But how often would that combo >turn up? I don't think I have ever played against a weenie dominate deck >though. That combo turns up pretty damn rarely. Actually, the description of play given by AsirthsurjfaCHOO! is also granting a quite-excellent draw to the weenie Dominate horde and some pretty damn lucky replaces. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter Laan wrote: > Why isn't there a migration text entry for sleeping mind on WWs web site? The migration list only lists cards whose texts have been functionally changed, not for cards whose texts have merely been rewritten for clarity or uniformity. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, LSJ wrote: > Peter Laan wrote: > > Why isn't there a migration text entry for sleeping mind on WWs web site? > > The migration list only lists cards whose texts have been functionally > changed, not for cards whose texts have merely been rewritten for clarity > or uniformity. Dropping "and tapped minions cannot block this action" from The Sleeping Mind does seem like a functional change rather than a clarity issue, since minions playing Wake or Forced are tapped. I guess since they are attempting to "block as though untapped" then The Sleeping Mind wasn't meant to keep minions using Wake or Forced from blocking and the dropped phrase was only there to remind us that tapped minions can't block under normal circumstances. That is confusing. Glad that phrase was dropped from the card text. -Matt

"Peter Laan" <plnew...@yahoo.se> wrote in message news:n3od9.9281$HY3.2...@newsc.telia.net... > > Why isn't there a migration text entry for sleeping mind on WWs web site? > Because LSJ is stubborn. Technically, the text change on Sleeping Mind didn't change the card, because there was already a ruling that said that it didn't stop you from blocking while Waked, since Wake lets you pretend that you're untapped, and so gets around Sleeping Mind's restriction. However, when the text of the card was changed, the ruling became unecessary, so it was removed. So now, there is no trace of anything saying how Sleeping Mind works, and you can't find a text migration *or* a ruling if you have an old copy.

"Matthew T. Morgan" wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, LSJ wrote: > > > Peter Laan wrote: > > > Why isn't there a migration text entry for sleeping mind on WWs web site? > > > > The migration list only lists cards whose texts have been functionally > > changed, not for cards whose texts have merely been rewritten for clarity > > or uniformity. > > Dropping "and tapped minions cannot block this action" from The Sleeping > Mind does seem like a functional change rather than a clarity issue, since > minions playing Wake or Forced are tapped. It doesn't. "tapped minions cannot block" is a standard rule. Removing that statement had no effect - it is still a standard rule. > I guess since they are > attempting to "block as though untapped" then The Sleeping Mind wasn't > meant to keep minions using Wake or Forced from blocking and the dropped > phrase was only there to remind us that tapped minions can't block under > normal circumstances. Right. > That is confusing. Glad that phrase was dropped from the card text. Me too. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter Laan" <plnew...@yahoo.se> wrote in message > > Sleeping mind at Superior does not prevent wakes or forced awakenings, as > > these cards do not actually untap the vampire. Guard dogs (and Rats > > warnings, 2nd traditions) are affected and cannot be used against superior > > sleeping mind (as they untap the minion). > > > > Guard dogs are mentioned IMO for when you are not bothered with sleeping > > mind, as it is then preferrable to WWEF. > > The Sleeping Mind at superiour says: "Only usable when the acting vampire's > action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action, and tapped > minions cannot block this action." I couldn't find any text migration entry > on WWs web site. So WWEF would not work. > Whilst you were there you should have checked the WwEF text: Name: Wake with Evening's Freshness [Jyhad, V:TES, SW, FN] Cardtype: Reaction Do not replace until your next untap phase. Only usable by a tapped vampire. This reacting vampire can use reaction cards and attempt to block as though untapped until the current action is concluded. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The "As though untapped" is the reason why it works. mattgreen.

On Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:58:54 GMT, "Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> said: Chris> However, when the text of the card was changed, the ruling Chris> became unecessary, so it was removed. So now, there is no Chris> trace of anything saying how Sleeping Mind works, and you can't Chris> find a text migration *or* a ruling if you have an old copy. Yah, I hear you. When I run tournaments I get a lot of "how exactly does this card work nowadays" questions from players with old versions of cards. I always have a printed copy of the most current errata list + the card migrations sheet, but that does not always help (as is the case with Sleeping Mind and lots of others). Guess I'll just have to download the complete "spoiler" card lists from the WW site for those times when I have a laptop handy in the tournament. Unfortunately I don't own a laptop yet, so a lot of the time I have to rely on printouts - and printing the complete card lists with texts would make quite a pile. Pending any sort of unified "changes to card texts" list, guess I'll have to do that. Sigh. Don't get me wrong, the card text migrations text is a lot better than nothing - it's just not always enough. //Petri

"Peter Laan" <plnew...@yahoo.se> wrote in message news:<hjld9.9239$HY3.2...@newsc.telia.net>... > > The Sleeping Mind at superiour says: "Only usable when the acting vampire's > action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action, and tapped > minions cannot block this action." I couldn't find any text migration entry > on WWs web site. So WWEF would not work. > > Peter Wakes work, Cardtext as per the WW website; Name: The Sleeping Mind [Sabbat, SW] Cardtype: Action Modifier Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Dominate Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. [dom] Choose a tapped vampire. The chosen vampire cannot attempt to block this action. [DOM] Only usable when the acting vampire's action is announced. Minions cannot untap during this action.

"Petri Wessman" <or...@orava.org> wrote in message news:87y9ahz...@ws16.smallplanet.fi... > and printing the complete card > lists with texts would make quite a pile. Pending any sort of unified > "changes to card texts" list, guess I'll have to do that. Sigh. > > //Petri Importing to word, 2 columns per page, 8 pt. I think, and removing some blank lines and such killed 37 pages prior to CE. Adding the vamps and the new cards might add another 15 pages? Makes quite a pile indeed. I've tried importing them into a palm in a word file but searching it then takes 10 minutes a search. not quite too useful. Anybody know how I can speed up the search? -JTP