stealing blood?

when i steal blood from a vamp that does not have the blood to steal....does that vamp get burned?

In article <20001106011635...@ng-cc1.aol.com>, ZombieCreep <zombi...@aol.com> wrote: >when i steal blood from a vamp that does not have the blood to steal....does >that vamp get burned? No. This was incorrectly stated in the rulebook for V:tES 2nd Edition, but has not been the case for many years. Stealing blood from a vampire that is dry has no effect. gomi -- you say they taught you how to read and write yeah, they taught you how to count i say they taught you how to buy and sell your own body by the pound

BOOOOOOOOOOOOORING! Where's the fun in that???? Let's throw the Tremere a friggin' bone! This game has become weak!! Not to mention the D action rule and agg damage among others. Jeff Prince of Cleveland "BRRRRRDDT doot doot, Boring!" Keyop, Battle of the Planets

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:49:27 -0500 (EST), Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: >BOOOOOOOOOOOOORING! Where's the fun in that???? Let's throw the Tremere >a friggin' bone! This game has become weak!! Not to mention the D >action rule and agg damage among others. But you're an idiot, so who cares what you think is boring? =) -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

Oh ho ho! You must care what I say enough to get you to respond, but I won't comment and stoop to your level... Rules wise, what do you have against a vamp being toasted by stealing? When playing this weekend, one player brought out Tremere and the gang was laughing like Dr Evil and crew when they were going get one hundred billion dollars. The Tremere are a JOKE in this game. From reading the novels and books even the Sabbat cringe at the word Tremere. I feel this "metaphor" of the WOD should be somewhat accurate. I am not alone in this thought. LET'EM FRY! Jeff Bangladesh Children's Factory Jack-Boot Division, Night Supervisor

In article <10424-3A...@storefull-145.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: [snip] > Rules wise, what do you have against a vamp being toasted by > stealing? Well for one thing stealing blood is not damage, only damage can send a vampire to torpor. > The Tremere are a JOKE in this game. Have you never seen a really nasty Tremere deck? Try all weenies with Tha. 40+ Weather Controls, 20 + bums rushes and watch as Roreca Quaid takes down an IC member before the poor bastard can get to the Elysium. Hmmm, trading a 2 cap for an 11 cap, I'll take those odds. Tha and Cel also makes for some great combos as well, though not totally Tremere. Theft until empty then walk him in the second or first with the old Shotgun Ritual. Then you have Psyche available with Cel with pesky S:CE. It can get rather nasty. Telepathic Tracking should help the Tremere out a bunch as well. Joe C. - V:EKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter www.warghoul.com Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:10:55 -0500 (EST), Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: >Oh ho ho! You must care what I say enough to get you to respond, but I >won't comment and stoop to your level... Nah, I just haven't been thuggish enough recently, and there aren't any newbies to bash, so I figured I'd go for the old favourites - and presto, there you were! =) Almost like yellow snow from heaven. Hint: think before posting. > Rules wise, what do you have against a vamp being toasted by >stealing? When playing this weekend, one player brought out Tremere and Besides all the other cards that provide for "steal blood" that aren't for the Tremere, you mean? Or just the obviously overdone imbalance that shows up when stealing-to-zero burns a vamp? >the gang was laughing like Dr Evil and crew when they were going get one >hundred billion dollars. The Tremere are a JOKE in this game. From >reading the novels and books even the Sabbat cringe at the word Tremere. Two words: Telepathic Tracking. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Jeffrey Moore wrote: > Rules wise, what do you have against a vamp being toasted by > stealing? That the rules state the contrary, and that the only reference to it in V:TES was in the basic game (where all blood reduction to zero, effectively, toasted a vampire) which simply wasn't over-turned. It wsa never listed amongst the changes and the Rules Team acted swiftly to correct this at the time. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "Steve: Yeah, well that's one of the advantages of being a sad, lonely fairy, I guess. You get to learn how to be a spy." - Stephen Fry, Making History

Who's talking about going to torpor? I'm talking fry as in Ash heap. I'm saying that if your vamp has no blood and is hit with steal blood, you should be ashes. 40+ weather controls seems a bit inefficient use of cards, imo. Who has 40+ wheather controls anyway, sheesh!! Jeff Prince of Cleveland

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, Ben sure had them when he played the Weather Control deck in the Dragon*Con tournament. Actually found he had too many in there (think he had 60 or so). So "40+" is a bit inefficient. 40 should do it. -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta PS. Hm. Microsoft Entourage is acting up...either the newsgroup or Jeff might get two copies of this.

Imbalence? I don't think burning vamps by stealing is. I prefer it to the low energy yawn fest you seem to enjoy, Derek. Telepathic Tracking, 'clap'............................'clap'..............................................'clap'.....................'clap' Now all anyone who wants to make a winning deck with the Tremere is purchase hundreds of dollars worth of new boosters to get maybe 5 trackings' and no hope of seeing anything with a neat little pentacle on it. Besides, most combat decks maul Tremere's in the first round anyhow. I don't think this card should be classified in the "huge". Maybe, very good. Tha/THA needs cards that dodge with and additional strike....now that would be "huge". Jeff Prince of Cleveland "The Thug Sweeper of the North"

In article <17621-3A...@storefull-148.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: > Who's talking about going to torpor? I'm talking fry as in Ash heap. Ash heap, Torpor the vamps still neutered for the time being. > I'm saying that if your vamp has no blood and is hit with steal blood, > you should be ashes. So by that rational a vamp being punched for 1 with no blood should burn as well. Does Theft burn a vampire in the RPG? No. it just empties him. So why should Theft in the CCG act totally different? > 40+ weather controls seems a bit inefficient use of cards, imo. It may not be the most efficient but one combat with it and you won't be blocking anything again. > Who has 40+ wheather controls anyway, sheesh!! Buy some cards, it's not that hard, trade some cards, try a proxie deck one night. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:58:44 -0500 (EST), Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: >Imbalence? I don't think burning vamps by stealing is. I prefer it to >the low energy yawn fest you seem to enjoy, Derek. (shrug) I play combat. Lots of it. I do think, however, that you haven't the slightest idea of what "game balance" entails; only "what Jeff wants", and your ideas sort of make it obvious. > Telepathic Tracking, >'clap'............................'clap'..............................................'clap'.....................'clap' >Now all anyone who wants to make a winning deck with the Tremere is >purchase hundreds of dollars worth of new boosters to get maybe 5 >trackings' and no hope of seeing anything with a neat little pentacle on Get a job? Or do some trading. God forbid you should have to trade cards. And if you think the Tremere need new combat cards, you're on that $3 Cleveland crack - they just needed something to make the ones they had viable. Eldritch Glimmer, Drain Essence, Blood to Water, and Cauldron of Blood are all strong cards - the problem was being able to get to the 2nd round consistently in the first place. Solved neatly by the new card. >it. Besides, most combat decks maul Tremere's in the first round >anyhow. I don't think this card should be classified in the "huge". >Maybe, very good. A Tremere who wants to survive the first round against a combat deck doesn't have THAT much of a problem doing so if built well. Most combat decks are close range. Maneuvers solve that problem, and oh look! Spirit's Touch grants a maneuver! Now you just need some Apportations for backup, and oh look! They can be used as press cards too! And you have all those TT's handy for anyone who wants to S:CE, or you can use it at inferior for a press AND a maneuver! Wow. What a concept. Most people had that down pat back when Sabbat came out - there just wasn't anything to save them from S:CE. If you see a lot of guns-with-celerity, just use Soul Burn as your first round strike. So much for guns. If you see a lot of Assamites, maneuver back to CLOSE with all those maneuvers you pack in your deck. Duh? Same for Potence pitch decks - Sewer Lids are no good at close. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Jeffrey Moore wrote: > Who's talking about going to torpor? Unless you quote some of the previous post, no-one will know. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Jeffrey Moore wrote: > Now all anyone who wants to make a winning deck with the Tremere is > purchase hundreds of dollars worth of new boosters to get maybe 5 > trackings' and no hope of seeing anything with a neat little pentacle on > it. Or they could not be as bloody stupid as you and trade the cards, instead. Or borrow them. Or buy singles. Or.... For those of you in the US, is Cleveland some form of radioactive waste-dump? There must be something to explain him. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:Pine.SOL.4.21.001107...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk... > For those of you in the US, is Cleveland some form of radioactive > waste-dump? There must be something to explain him. Yes. Xian -- I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. A cold that sleeps within my heart, It tears the earth and sun apart. --_Shellshock_, New Order www.waste.org/~xian

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0011071930280.12189- 100...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Jeffrey Moore wrote: [Snip] > For those of you in the US, is Cleveland some form of radioactive > waste-dump? There must be something to explain him. It could be in the water. Cuyahoga River Fires plagued the Cuyahoga beginning in 1936 when a spark from a blow torch ignited floating debris and oils. Fires erupted on the river several more times before June 22, 1969, when a river fire captured national attention when Time magazine described the Cuyahoga as the river that "oozes rather than flows" and in which a person "does not drown but decays." [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <17621-3A...@storefull-148.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: > Imbalence? I don't think burning vamps by stealing is I have only one thing to say against this : Francois Villon. If you don't think that burning vamps by stealing blood creates an imbalence, just try a game with the good old prince of Paris and watch play balance fly out the door... Steal blood effects are fine the way they are. Burning an empty vampire by removing blood that isn't there in the first place is just stupid. There is no logical basis for it. Andrei Rublev --- The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Jeffrey Moore" <Trut...@webtv.net> wrote in message news:10424-3A...@storefull-145.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > Rules wise, what do you have against a vamp being toasted by > stealing? When playing this weekend, one player brought out Tremere and There is no logical reason that a vampire should burn when blood that it does not have is stolen. As Joe pointed out, a punch for 1 should do the same thing then. If you want to bring RPG/WoD perspective, it's pretty much the same. The Tremere *can* use Theft of Vitae on a vampire without blood, but it doesn't do anything. It's pretty simple. > the gang was laughing like Dr Evil and crew when they were going get one > hundred billion dollars. The Tremere are a JOKE in this game. From The Tremere are a joke because people insist on playing them wrong. Thaumaturgy on its own is not sufficient to stand up to a top-class combat discipline...such a Potence. Thaumaturgy needs support from other cards. Telepathic Tracking is a great help. So is Thoughts Betrayed. Using maneuvers or damage prevention from either skill-less cards, equipment, Celerity, or Fortitude works well. Yes, Thaumaturgy has some really nasty strikes. However, they can't be used without the proper support. Much like a weenie Potence IG deck won't work if you can't maneuver to close range, or a Brujah pitch deck doesn't work nearly as well at close range, Thaumaturgy needs some form of combat support to prevent S:CE as well as damage to your own minions. As long as people keep trying to run Thaumaturgy as a premiere combat discipline without adequate support from other sources, they will continue to fail. > reading the novels and books even the Sabbat cringe at the word Tremere. That's not because the Tremere wade into combat and kick ass like the Brujah or the Gangrel. It's because the Tremere are fucking sneaky and cruel as hell. So play that way, dammit. Don't get stuck in a straightforward mode where you're trying to beat other combat decks at their own game. Here are some suggestions: If your playgroup sees lots of blocking, try experimenting with a dom/for/tha deck like my "I Used to Think that the Day Would Never Come, that My Life Would Depend on the Morning Sun"[1]...which I am in the process of revising, because my playgroup *finally* caught on. I played it in a tournament recently, and with a little more luck, would have walked away with more than 1 VP. An ill-timed vote when I didn't have Kindred Coercion in my hand kept me from sweeping a table, and a cross-table Conditioning added *after* the Deflection to me proved my downfall in separate rounds. Well, that, and my sleep-deprived play may have proved a factor...Mark ShaneWood might be the best judge there. However, the previous time I played it, I swept a 5 player table that included a stealth-bleed deck, a vote deck, and two brutal combat decks. If your playgroup sees lots of low-stealth actions or Bruise & Bleed decks, try playing an intercept deck like the one I just posted in the VEKN Tremere Clan Newsletter for November. Intercept the crucial actions, or ones where the minions are weak. If your playgroup is focused on combat, try something different...perhaps a Tremere dom/aus deck that focuses on bleeding and uses bounce and Obedience for defense. If you're bored and interested in something challenging, play a Cryptic Mission deck as outlined here: http://www.waste.org/~xian/geek/jyhad/news/tremere1-6.html > I feel this "metaphor" of the WOD should be somewhat accurate. I am > not alone in this thought. LET'EM FRY! No, you're not alone. There are a number of other misguided sods out there that agree with you. People that believe that Blood to Water should burn vampires as well. Stealing/burning blood was never supposed to burn vampires...there's no reason to make it do so now. The Tremere *are* strong...the problem is that people play them wrong...they are not meant to stand toe to toe with the Brujah or the Gangrel. They're a little bit more intelligent than that. So freakin' play them that way, already. Xian Chronicler of Clan Tremere [1] Complete deck listing below (thanks to ELDB), but in the near future, I am going to tone it down to 6 Dawn Ops, 6 Skin of Night, and probably 8 Weather Control, because, as mentioned, my playgroup has finally caught on that they really *shouldn't* block every single action that comes their way. Deck name: I Used to Think that the Day Would Never Come, that My Life Would Depend on the Morning Sun Created by: Xian Description: Bleed & Deflect. If they block, Dawn Op, Skin of Night & Weather Control. Then you Graverob. Crypt: (12 cards) [Min: 24, Max: 37, Avg: 7.50] 1 Bindusara, Historian of the Kindred (Ventrue, 9, AU DO FO PR th) 2 Cardano (Tremere, 9, an au ce DO FO TH, Prince) 1 Ian Forestal (Tremere Antitribu, 8, AU DO TH) 2 Iliana (Gangrel, 7, DO FO PT th) 2 Marlene, The Infernalist (Ventrue Antitribu, 6, AU de DO fo th) 1 Merrill Molitor (Tremere, 5, au do TH) 2 Muaziz, Archon of Ulugh Beg (Tremere, 7, au do fo TH) 1 Ulugh Beg, The Watcher (Tremere, 10, AU ce DO fo po TH, Justicar) Library: (90 cards) Master (10) 1 Arcane Library 4 Blood Doll 1 Dominate 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 3 Fortitude Minion (80) 1 Arson 8 Dawn Operation 8 Deflection 1 Fifth Tradition: Hospitality, The 3 Freak Drive 2 Govern the Unaligned 4 Grave Robbing 3 Kindred Coercion 2 Restoration 2 Rutor's Hand 6 Scouting Mission 8 Skin of Night 4 Skin of Steel 2 Soul Burn 1 Sport Bike 2 Superior Mettle 8 Threats 5 Wake with Evening's Freshness 10 Weather Control [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8u9okg$222$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Joe C. <tzimi...@my-deja.com> wrote: > In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0011071930280.12189- > 100...@green.csi.cam.ac.uk>, > James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Jeffrey Moore wrote: > > [Snip] > > > For those of you in the US, is Cleveland some form of radioactive > > waste-dump? There must be something to explain him. > > It could be in the water. Here's a link to a picture as well: http://www.epa.gov/glnpo/aoc/cuyahoga/cuybrn.gif Notice the Flammable sign over the river sign. How often do you see that? :-) Joe C. [ quoted text not captured ]

Francois rules! I don't feel he makes it unbalanced by any means, bogus if you are on the receiving end maybe but not unbalanced. When Vtes came out, stealing blood from empty vamps burned them. The game is a blast by that rule. Again, I feel this keeps the game from being a block rigid, dry and boring game. For all the posts trying to personally slag me, It's obvious you have major self esteem issues, I pity on you. Jeff "Yes, it's ALL my fault the river caught on fire before I was born! lol!" Prince of Cleveland

On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:39:56 -0500 (EST), Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: >Francois rules! I don't feel he makes it unbalanced by any means, bogus >if you are on the receiving end maybe but not unbalanced. When Vtes >came out, stealing blood from empty vamps burned them. The game is a this is, of course, not a true statement. >blast by that rule. Again, I feel this keeps the game from being a >block rigid, dry and boring game. Yeah, it turns it into a 15-minute "OK, I do X. I win. You lose. Play again?" version that might as well be played with dice, for all the relevance it has to V:TES. If you want to play something quick, random, and silly, play Lunch Money or Give Me the Brain. If you want something with some strategy, however, we have this lovely thing called V:TES. Anyone thinking that V:TES is "rigid" by the current rules is really in need of a creativity transfusion. [ quoted text not captured ]

Xian, thank you! I will praise the day when people will start to see that the Tremere are more than just Thaumaturgy. Bleed the living shit out of your prey seductively and use Thau as combat defense. Come on. We're not sseing killer Ventrue Rush decks either (ok 1 or 2) and noone is complaining there. Tim In article <FpZN5.1927$b5.1...@news.uswest.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] -- PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <2406-3A0...@storefull-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, Trut...@webtv.net (Jeffrey Moore) wrote: > Francois rules! I don't feel he makes it unbalanced by any means, bogus > if you are on the receiving end maybe but not unbalanced. When Vtes > came out, stealing blood from empty vamps burned them. i was there when it first came out, and i assure you that you are mistaken about this. The game is a > blast by that rule. If that's a house rule that you find entertaining then good for you. However i am not seeing the justification for it at all. To reiterate one of Joe's points, why should stealing blood from a vampire at 0 burn it, when hitting it for 1 damage at 0 doesn't? Are you, perhaps, thinking that stealing blood from a vampire at 0 is equivalent to diablerie? That could make some sense. Then the vampire that did it should be able to get a new discipline card if s/he is younger than his/her victim, and s/he should be blood/wyld-huntable. Do you have that in your house-rules? Again, I feel this keeps the game from being a > block rigid, dry and boring game. i play by different rules, and i assure you that you are mistaken in thinking that with those rules the game is block rigid, dry and boring. > For all the posts trying to personally slag me, Not slagging. Opining that your position is stupid, and seeking to understand why. It's obvious you > have major self esteem issues, No, they just think you are being a bit slow on the uptake. I pity on you. "I pity you" i think is what you mean to say. Or possibly "I piss on you". > > Jeff > "Yes, it's ALL my fault the river caught on fire before I was born! > lol!" They think your apparently-perverse and illogical position on stealing blood being able to burn a vampire might have external causes to do with the low environmental quality of your locale. But perhaps they are wrong. Maybe your position IS logical in some deep way that the rest of us in our stupidity are failing to see. On the other hand, maybe you are just inexcusably stupid. > Prince of Cleveland [ quoted text not captured ]

Jeffrey Moore wrote: > > Francois rules! I don't feel he makes it unbalanced by any means, bogus > if you are on the receiving end maybe but not unbalanced. When Vtes > came out, stealing blood from empty vamps burned them. The game is a Only in the basic game (the one in which an action with stealth was unblockable and aggravated damage didn't exist). In the full game, stealing blood would not burn a vampire. That rule was, unfortunately, omitted from the rulebook, but errata was issued at the same time the set was released to correct the oversight. > blast by that rule. Again, I feel this keeps the game from being a > block rigid, dry and boring game. Excellent. Many house rules abound to help players turn the game into something that they find more enjoyable. You might try playing by all of the "basic" game rules for even less "dry" games, or try the variants given in the appendix of the VTES rulebook. But we tend to stick to the official rules on this newsgroup, so any post regarding your house rules (or decks built to be played under particular house rules) should make prominent note of the fact. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

i was there when it first came out, and i assure you that you are mistaken about this sorry but when jyhad became VTES that was when the stealing blood burnt a vamp rule was introduced

In article <20001109105236...@ng-ff1.aol.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] In the basic game, as people keep pointing out. In the basic game it was also the case that hurting a vampire in ANY way so that it had less than 0 blood burnt it. NEVER EVER has it been part of the official rules of ANY variant of this game that you could burn a vampire by stealing its blood, but not by hurting it in other ways. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Jeffrey Moore wrote: > Francois rules! I don't feel he makes it unbalanced by any means, bogus > if you are on the receiving end maybe but not unbalanced. When Vtes > came out, stealing blood from empty vamps burned them. For all of about five seconds until the addendum was added. [ quoted text not captured ]

I hate to whinge like, well, a whinger, but the Tremere get a raw deal in V:TES anyway. Thaumaturgy (as I have have to explain to countless GMs over the years) is not a combat discipline. Its primary use is political, to either set Vampires up to be rescued (thus owing a boon) or to get them out of scrapes they were already in (likewise). This is not represented in any way in the card game. There are two non-combat cards, and although Cryptic Mission in theory represents the non-combat side (and therefore of course shouldn't burn vampires because no amount of discrediting will actually kill you), it's rather restricted compared to the newly expanded Dementation which now features more ways to send you mad than many other disciplines' action cards put together. So the reason people play Tremere as a combat deck is because that's how they're presented. If you just want access to Auspex and Dominate, play Malk or !Ventrue. The Sabbat do not hate and revile the Tremere because of their other disiciplines...

In article <8uk7c7$hlo$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>, "Tim Fletcher" <dun...@yahoo.com> wrote: > I hate to whinge like, well, a whinger, but the Tremere get a raw > deal in V:TES anyway. Well, they're not as strong as some of the other clans are, certainly, (Ventrue, Brujah...Malkavian to some extent) but then again, they aren't in V:tM, either. > Thaumaturgy (as I have have to explain to countless GMs over the > years) is not a combat discipline. Its primary use is political, to > either set Vampires up to be rescued (thus owing a boon) or to get > them out of scrapes they were already in (likewise). The Path of Blood, certainly...with perhaps the exception of the power Cauldron of Blood. However, I have trouble seeing any political uses for some of the other paths, like the Lure of Flames or Neptune's Might. Well, okay, I suppose you could cause an enemy to Rotshreck frenzy in Elysium with Path of Flames, but then again, you're breaking the Laws of Elysium by using disciplines there... > This is not represented in any way in the card game. There are two > non-combat cards, and although Cryptic Mission in theory represents > the non-combat side (and therefore of course shouldn't burn vampires > because no amount of discrediting will actually kill you), it's I like your analysis of Cryptic Mission...I hadn't ever thought of it quite that way before, but it works well. If you include all the sets, there are 5 non-combat cards, but there were only two in Jyhad/V:tES (Cryptic Mission and Magic of the Smith). Infernal Familiar, from Sabbat, is equally combat/non-combat. Rutor's Hand, I suppose, isn't really political, but it does offer the ability to do more stuff, including being extra-reactive to politics, etc. I would argue, however, that Seeds of Corruption definitely offers some political or intrigue-based angle. Burning 1 or 2 blood (or 2 or 3 if a Follower of Set) for every action taken and losing all special abilities is pretty harsh, and can easily represent slandering and discrediting, that sort of thing. > rather restricted compared to the newly expanded Dementation which > now features more ways to send you mad than many other disciplines' > action cards put together. Dementation still has only 17 (10 actions) cards, compared to Thaumaturgy's 20, and Dominate's 23 (9 actions). > So the reason people play Tremere as a combat deck is because that's > how they're presented. If you just want access to Auspex and > Dominate, play Malk or !Ventrue. True. Still, by mixing in other disciplines, you can get a lot of variety. > The Sabbat do not hate and revile the Tremere because of their other > disiciplines... Nah, they hate them because they're so damned effective, and use Dominate to put the whammy on anyone and everyone that comes within sight. Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Xian wrote: > In article <8uk7c7$hlo$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>, > "Tim Fletcher" <dun...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I hate to whinge like, well, a whinger, but the Tremere get a raw > > deal in V:TES anyway. > > Well, they're not as strong as some of the other clans are, certainly, > (Ventrue, Brujah...Malkavian to some extent) but then again, they > aren't in V:tM, either. A very, very subjective opinion (as are most such things, of course). The Tremere *can* be very good. I don't know much about the White Wolf story arc and so can't say if they've been shafted over as a clan, but as individuals, they can do very well. So much so, in one group I was involved with, that *every* Tremere had the tendency to invoke the wrath of all around them, simply for being Tremere. We had "Harriet, the nice Tremere" (who wasn't really, of course, just not quite as bad as the rest) who seemed to be the one who lived longest of the regular cast. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:Pine.SOL.4.21.001112...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk... [strength of the Tremere] > A very, very subjective opinion (as are most such things, of course). The > Tremere *can* be very good. I don't know much about the White Wolf story You're preaching to the converted, James. Or maybe you're just the choir preaching to the...preacher. Or something. However, as far as I can tell, the Tremere win very few tournaments, and I suspect it is largely due to people normally playing them as a combat deck. > arc and so can't say if they've been shafted over as a clan, but as > individuals, they can do very well. Hmm. I don't know much about WW's canon storyline either, but the Tremere tend to be mistrusted as a whole, and can have trouble getting anything done without resorting to bullying/threatening/blackmailing. Not that there's anything wrong with that... > So much so, in one group I was involved with, that *every* Tremere had the > tendency to invoke the wrath of all around them, simply for being > Tremere. We had "Harriet, the nice Tremere" (who wasn't really, of Heh. The Tremere kick ass against fortitude, but fall over terribly against S:CE, unless of course, they use Thoughts Betrayed. I'm sure you already knew all of this...but while *I* think that the Tremere are fairly strong...two of the better disciplines in the game, plus Thaumaturgy, from what I can tell from the newsgroup (admittedly a skewed sample, but all I've got), the Tremere are under-represented and don't win much. In my own (expanding) playgroup, the Tremere make regular showings, but the often get horribly embarrassed, as some of the players just don't make them work well. Intercept decks with too much intercept (surprise!), ill-conceived combat decks, bleed decks that select the wrong vampires or expect to get by on one stealth...the whole gamut is there. So, as we know, I have taken it upon myself to educate the world on better methods of playing the Tremere. Of course, you could claim that the whole previous post was simply a conscious attempt to fool everyone on the newsgroup into not playing the Tremere, so that I could dominate tournament play forever and not have to worry about contesting...and then you could look back in future years and point to that post as conclusive evidence that it was my fault all along. :) Xian, off to start a sealed deck league thingy... -- I'd tell the world and save my soul, But rain falls down and I feel cold. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Xian wrote: > [strength of the Tremere] > > A very, very subjective opinion (as are most such things, of course). The > > Tremere *can* be very good. I don't know much about the White Wolf story > > You're preaching to the converted, James. Or maybe you're just the choir > preaching to the...preacher. Or something. However, as far as I can tell, > the Tremere win very few tournaments, and I suspect it is largely due to > people normally playing them as a combat deck. Actually, I was talking about V:tM for most of it.... Thing is, with every Thaumaturgy card most people see being a combat card, it's kind of inevitable for people to want to play them as a combat clan. Ah, to be able to re-invent V:TES with a workable, non-combat strategy (possibly a Fourth Major Strategy, from the start, in addition to bleed, vote, combat) for the Tremere and Thaumaturgy. > > So much so, in one group I was involved with, that *every* Tremere had the > > tendency to invoke the wrath of all around them, simply for being > > Tremere. We had "Harriet, the nice Tremere" (who wasn't really, of > > Heh. The Tremere kick ass against fortitude, but fall over terribly against > S:CE, unless of course, they use Thoughts Betrayed. Or Telepathic Tracking...... It really does work against S:CE. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:Pine.SOL.4.21.001112...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk... > Or Telepathic Tracking...... It really does work against S:CE. I know...did you see my "Intercept Deck that Might Work" in the newsletter? 3 of 5 VP, and that because I made a conscious decision to stop my prey from ousting my grandprey...who then took advantage of that, and ousted his prey and my predator in quick succession. Still, 3 of 5 is far better than 2 of 5 for an intercept deck. Still working on it, and I played it last night, was doing...okay (for sitting between a Brujah general combat deck and a Tzimisce deck)...but had to leave early. Stupid work. Yay, no more night shift! Xian

> The Path of Blood, certainly...with perhaps the exception of the power > Cauldron of Blood. However, I have trouble seeing any political uses > for some of the other paths, like the Lure of Flames or Neptune's > Might. Well, okay, I suppose you could cause an enemy to Rotshreck > frenzy in Elysium with Path of Flames, but then again, you're breaking > the Laws of Elysium by using disciplines there... There's no ban on discipline use in Elysium. Some implement that. Some don't. It depends on how civilised the clientele are. But Neptune's Might lets you see through bodies of water. Lure of Flames... yes, I suppose. But the main thing about Thaumaturgy is not the paths, it's the rituals. I'm sure I don't need to mention which cards in the game _should_ be Thaumaturgy only... > I like your analysis of Cryptic Mission...I hadn't ever thought of it > quite that way before, but it works well. Actually it only occurred to me in the middle of writing this. I'd never understood that card before... > If you include all the sets, > there are 5 non-combat cards, but there were only two in Jyhad/V:tES > (Cryptic Mission and Magic of the Smith). Infernal Familiar, from > Sabbat, is equally combat/non-combat. Rutor's Hand, I suppose, isn't > really political, but it does offer the ability to do more stuff, > including being extra-reactive to politics, etc. Sorry, I was only remembering CM and R's H. Infernal Familiar is a very specific-use card, and a Tremere-only deck would have little use for it. Rutor's Hand is useful, I agree. But isn't Magic of the Smith for making weapons? > I would argue, however, that Seeds of Corruption definitely offers some > political or intrigue-based angle. Burning 1 or 2 blood (or 2 or 3 if > a Follower of Set) for every action taken and losing all special > abilities is pretty harsh, and can easily represent slandering and > discrediting, that sort of thing. But it gives you about as much political power in the game as a Sensory Deprivation - less, maybe. If you could negate the card yourself, as a sort of threat, then maybe... but as it stands it's as subtle as a flamethrower. > Dementation still has only 17 (10 actions) cards, compared to > Thaumaturgy's 20, and Dominate's 23 (9 actions). I was exaggerating... I should have guessed you'd go count <g>. Still, they have a lot and most of them seem to do vaguely similar things.

"Tim Fletcher" <dun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8uncdj$49l$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com... > There's no ban on discipline use in Elysium. Some implement that. Some > don't. Ah. Pretty much any (V:tM) campaign I've been in, that's been the case. But I see that you're right. > It depends on how civilised the clientele are. But Neptune's Might lets you > see through bodies of water. Lure of Flames... yes, I suppose. But the main > thing about Thaumaturgy is not the paths, it's the rituals. I'm sure I don't > need to mention which cards in the game _should_ be Thaumaturgy only... Heh. For some reason, that has never bothered me all that much. I would definitely like to see a card representing Splinter Servant, Shaft of Belated Quiescence, etc. The Heart of Stone one or whatever it's called would be interesting as well. > Sorry, I was only remembering CM and R's H. Infernal Familiar is a very > specific-use card, and a Tremere-only deck would have little use for it. > Rutor's Hand is useful, I agree. But isn't Magic of the Smith for making > weapons? Yup. Well, equipment, VCRs, what-have-you. Sport Bikes or IR Goggles/Flak Jacket/Leather Jacket are good options. Then again, rather than include MotS, I'm more likely to replace all of those slots with more of whatever equipment I was planning on using. [Seeds of Corruption] > But it gives you about as much political power in the game as a Sensory > Deprivation - less, maybe. If you could negate the card yourself, as a > sort of threat, then maybe... but as it stands it's as subtle as a > flamethrower. I wasn't saying the card itself is subtle, but, much like Cryptic Mission, it could be seen to represent something that the CCG doesn't focus on. Xian

> I wasn't saying the card itself is subtle, but, much like Cryptic Mission, it > could be seen to represent something that the CCG doesn't focus on. Ah, precisely the problem. The CCG _does_ focus on it, just not with the Tremere. I wasn't implying in my first message that the Tremere were weak (I've never had trouble in my group) but that they were poorly represented _as Tremere_.

> I don't > understand why everyone is responding to bullshit like this, flooding the > forum with e-quarrels that only ends with " piss you off" or "have a major > self esteem issue"... (especially involving Mr Legbiter -don't take it > personnaly, i like to read your other posts =) ) > It's good to try to educate the ignorants, but when it failed once, why > bother again with the same guy ? Same as all newsgroups; an uncontested statement ends up having an aura of truth about it. I suppose it's ostensibly for the newbies, so they don't get the wrong ideas. Mostly it's the egotistical urge to hit stupid people over the head with a baseball bat when they won't shut up, though. You're completely right, of course, but some of us are too stubborn for our own good. Some of the replies, (notably Legbiter, most especially James Coupe) however, are worth reading for the entertainment value as the poor idiot gets thoroughly, elegantly, and brutally dismantled all at once. =) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

<legb...@my-deja.com> a écrit dans le message news: 8uejr8$uv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... [ quoted text not captured ] It was a most easy to understand, simplified rules designed for beginners to understand how action and combat cards works. In this game, there was no stealth nor intercept. More beginners variants included hand damage (strength) growing with the capacity of vampire, and clan ennmity. These rules were good for kids under 12 years old. If this guy J.Moore is somewhat dumb or slow minded, it's perfect for him. One day he'll be tired to play alone and will join other players who uses the real rules. I don't understand why everyone is responding to bullshit like this, flooding the forum with e-quarrels that only ends with " piss you off" or "have a major self esteem issue"... (especially involving Mr Legbiter -don't take it personnaly, i like to read your other posts =) ) It's good to try to educate the ignorants, but when it failed once, why bother again with the same guy ? r.

In article <8uvg07$8e5$1...@news2.isdnet.net>, "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote: > > <legb...@my-deja.com> a écrit dans le message news: > 8uejr8$uv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > > In article <20001109105236...@ng-ff1.aol.com>, > > zombi...@aol.com (ZombieCreep) wrote: > > > In the basic game, as people keep pointing out. In the basic game it was > > also the case that hurting a vampire in ANY way so that it had less than > > 0 blood burnt it. NEVER EVER has it been part of the official rules of > > ANY variant of this game that you could burn a vampire by stealing its > > blood, but not by hurting it in other ways. > > It was a most easy to understand, simplified rules designed for beginners to > understand how action and combat cards works. In this game, there was no > stealth nor intercept. More beginners variants included hand damage > (strength) growing with the capacity of vampire, and clan ennmity. Yep. These > rules were good for kids under 12 years old. Actually, we began to teach Michael aka Anklebiter Jyhad when he was 8 or 9, and we never used the "simple" rules, because, well, we felt they weren't that simple. IMO there was a mythology about Jyhad which was that it is intrinsically a complex game, so that when VTES came out they tried to make it simpler/more gradated. i really don't think it ever WAS a complex game, certainly not compared to Lo5R, METW or Star Wars - the problem was that the first rules manual was INCREDIBLY poorly-written, and we didn't all have LSJ to explain to us how the game is actually supposed to work. In fact [slightly OT] if you read his posts or talk to him or hear him explaining how the game works to other people he is doing something amazingly more clever than just telling you what the answer is - he is telling you how to figure out the answers for yourself, by showing you the Deep Logic behind the RT's thinking. If this guy J.Moore is somewhat > dumb or slow minded, it's perfect for him. One day he'll be tired to play > alone and will join other players who uses the real rules. IMO it is ok for anyone who wants to, to play with house rules. But there has to be a bit of mutual respect here, and i must admit i tend to flare up a bit when ANYONE asserts that My Way Is The Right Way. Also in a game as clever as jyhad i have more respect for house-rules that are logical than for ones that aren't, or appear not to be. I don't > understand why everyone is responding to bullshit like this, flooding the > forum with e-quarrels that only ends with " piss you off" or "have a major > self esteem issue"... (especially involving Mr Legbiter -don't take it > personnaly, i like to read your other posts =) ) OK! > It's good to try to educate the ignorants, but when it failed once, why > bother again with the same guy ? To be honest i didn't realise it had failed before. Sorry! > > r. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I always thought that THE most important aspect of Thaumaturgy (and the Tremere) was flexibility. Sure, the Tremere (in the RPG) are rightly feared in combat. In the past, when the Sabbat were planning an attack, they'd only be calculating in the Brujah, Gangrel, and Tremere presence in the city. Although VTES "tries" to make Tremere decent in combat, it hasn't really been very successful. But still, flexibility is the greatest power of Thaumaturgy. With more than a handful of paths and the ability to whip up an appropriate ritual, Thaumaturgy can have so many uses. I think someone said earlier about how Thaumaturgy doesn't have any political use -- but it does. Whether indirectly (gathering information to blackmail) or maybe manipulating (like Path of Corruption) it can be quite useful. And don't forget one of the most INFAMOUS Tremere rituals -- Pavis of Foul Presence (something like that). It makes the user IMMUNE to Presence and if someone does try to use Presence on the user, there's a chance that the effect bounces back (so they Entrance or Awe themselves or something). Incredibly useful in social situations, though quite easily abused! Halcyan 2

>> It depends on how civilised the clientele are. But Neptune's Might lets you >> see through bodies of water. Lure of Flames... yes, I suppose. But the main >> thing about Thaumaturgy is not the paths, it's the rituals. I'm sure I >don't >> need to mention which cards in the game _should_ be Thaumaturgy only... Just for fun, let's go through an analysis comparing the THA cards to the RPG thaumaturgy. For those not familiar with the RPG, this can serve as an education opportunity. I'm a bit rusty so please forgive any mistakes: (For the sake of time, I won't try to explain the difference b/w Paths and Rituals. If you're confused about it, just ask.) Blood Rage: This is actually the second level of the Path of Blood. (One of the few Paths that actually contains multiple cards, instead of one card simply representing the entire path). In the RPG, you can force someone to spend a bloodpoint on whatever you want. I guess it's a mediocre translation. Decent damage though the strength is in impervious to Fortitude (which fits with RPG) and the weapon-hoser part. Blood Fury: Don't think it's actually a Path or Ritual, but probably just a variation (improved) for Blood Rage. Theft of Vitae: This is the 4th level of Path of Blood. Actually A LOT more useful than in the RPG. In the RPG, you always have to worry about being bloodbound. But it can be useful getting blood from that IV bag 10 feet away. So Theft is a pretty good translation. Drain Essence: Probably an improved variation of Theft. Cauldron of Blood: Really nasty in the RPG, this is the 5th and final level of Path of Blood. This is a very effective weapon in the RPG b/c in literally causes blood to boil. Just about kills any mortal and can do serious damage to vamps. In VTES, it does pretty good damage (3 or 5), though it's hamstrung by the 2nd turn restriction. Walk of Flame: This card represents the entire path (I think actually called Lure of Flames). All you can really do is start fires (one of the more linear paths), so Walk does do it some justice. Weather Control: This also represents an entire path. In Weather Control you start with fog and work your way up to winds, storms, and lightning. Pretty good translation with the environmental damage. Hypothetically, it could be useful with manuevers, presses, and damage prevention? Movement of the Mind: My favorite path! The use in the RPG far outstrips the VTES version. In the RPG, you can mentally lift different weight amounts. This has so many possibilities (flying, moving people, throwing things, etc.). In VTES, the manuever and press do a good job representing this path, but I think some strike cards and maybe even S:CE (You fly away) good work. Apportation: I think this is just an extension and variation for Movement of the Mind. Great card. It's probably just a more offensive application of Movement. Blood to Water: This is the fifth level of Neptune's Might (a Water Path). In RPG terms, it's sort of equivalent to Cauldron, and I think the VTES version does it justice. Magic of the Smith: The 2nd (?) or 3rd level of the Path of Creation. The first level lets you make simple objects. Then one of the next two allows complex objects (Magic of the Smith) while the other lets you destroy things you created. This card, while not always very useful, is an excellent representation of the many powers of the Tremere. Even if I don't use it a lot, it should get points for just being cool! Machine Blitz: This is a Ritual (2nd level I think). It's sort of like the Path of Technocracy in that it messes up a machine. Decent translation. I would have liked it better if it ALSO added a "this weapon can't be used this combat" or something too. Eldritch Glimmer: Another Ritual. In the RPG, you can pay blood to shoot little green bolts at people. Really good job at converting it to VTES (with the paying extra blood part). Rutor's Hand: In the RPG, this was a Ritual where you cut off a hand and take out an eye (this explains the picture, which may confuse some people). I guess the hand/eye is just used for surveillance around your haven or something. On a sidenote, I think there's something about not being able to regnerate your hand while Rutor's Hand is still alive or something. I have NO idea how this translate to the whole "get an extra untap." Shotgun Ritual: I don't think this directly translate into a specific ritual, but I'm pretty sure there are some rituals that speedup other magic. Infernal Familiar: Familiars are usually owned by mages. And there IS a background "Familiar" if you want an ex-mage who has retained his link. As for the Infernal part. Originally in 2nd Edition, infernalism was called Dark Thaumaturgy (separate from normal Thaumaturgy), and had it's own paths and such. I guess Infernal Familiar fits into this category. Now adays (3rd edition), most Dark paths are now just normal paths and Dark Thaumaturgy doesn't really exist. There IS Daimonion(sp.) a discipline possessed by the demon/devil-worshipping Baali... While the Sabbat does have a problem with infernalists, and there were quite a few !Tremere who practiced it, the !Tremere seem to always get accused of it, when a lot of them just practiced normal Thaumaturgy! Seeds of Corruption: In 2nd Edition, there is a Path of Corruption. You could modify people's behavior (cause them to do the opposite thing) and even change their personality. Don't know how this fits with the VTES version but oh well... Some people have theorized on how Cryptic Mission fits. In general, there is no Path or Ritual I can remember that it is based on. On a similar note, can't find anything for Burst of Sunlight (maybe some degree of Weather Control -- moving clouds?), and Soul Burn (maybe that Spirit Path?). In addition, there are cards that should be Thaumaturgy ONLY: The infamous Wake with Evening's Freshness: This is a 1st level Ritual, only usable by those learned in thaumaturgy (obviously). Homonculus: These are actually thaumaturgical creations (like Corpse Minions) -- NOT Protean-related thingies. Some of the Corruption-like cards of the Followers of Set could also be thaumaturgy cards. While the Path of Corruption (from 2nd Edition explained earlier) was a thaumaturgy path, FoS's could learn it w/o learning thaumaturgy. Well, that's about all I can think of. Any additions? Suggestions? Feedback? Hope you learned something! Halcyan 2

>And don't >forget one of the most INFAMOUS Tremere rituals -- Pavis of Foul Presence >(something like that). It makes the user IMMUNE to Presence and if someone >does >try to use Presence on the user, there's a chance that the effect bounces >back >(so they Entrance or Awe themselves or something). Incredibly useful in >social >situations, though quite easily abused! Oh yeah. I forgot the coolest part about Pavis -- as a material component, you gotta wear a blue silk scarf! A bit amusing, eh? Halcyan 2