[Question] Bum's Rush & FoM?

I realize that this question may have already been answered, but I somehow missed it. Apologies for any inconvenience. According to the new stealth ruling, is it now possible to play Bum's Rush, complete combat, then play Form of Mist to restart combat again? If it is, then Gangrel combat decks just became much more powerful, and Majesty just lost some of its bite. Oh well, at least now I can scrape my Second Tradition off the wall. By the way, has there been a ruling on the Shadow Court Satyr with the Skin of Rock? Thanks in advance. To those who dream of power and wealth, I say "Get a life!" Dreams are all we are and dreams are all we have. Don't waste them on blood and trinkets.

Tzo-ho Chan wrote: "According to the new stealth ruling, is it now possible to play Bum's Rush, complete combat, then play Form of Mist to restart combat again? If it is, then Gangrel combat decks just became much more powerful, and Majesty just lost some of its bite." I think you are misunderstanding how combat works. Form of Mist says "Strike: Combat Ends. Continue action at +1 stealth." As a result, a vampire can only use FoM as their Strike, and consequently they will not hurt anyone. If Badger Bum's Rushes someone and for her Strike plays FoM, combat will end and then the Bum's Rush will continue again, but no damage will have been done to either party. If the Vampire plays FoM over and over again, combat will simply end and start again and again, but no one will ever get hurt. FoM does not work like Psyche! which does, in fact, start combat over after it is finished, and always has (reducing Majesty's efectiveness on a whole). Once combat has been completed (i.e. someone is in torpor or a round ends and no one presses), a vampire cannot play FoM to start combat again, as it is a Strike, and you can only use Strikes during the chose strike portion of combat. FoM will not help the Gangrel compete against Majesty, as it will only begin the action again if the acting vampire plays it, and as the acting vampire choses strikes first, the defending vampire does not have to play their Majesty, as they see that the acting vampire is play a S:CE before they have to chose their strike. They can hold onto their Majesty until the acting vampire decides to try and hurt them, at which point they play Majesty, and it is then too late for the acting vampire to play FoM. The only situation where playing FoM during a Bum's Rush really has any worthwhile effect (that I am aware of. Some weird Protean/Thaumaturgy deck might be able to do something with Weather Controls and FoM...) is when the acting vampire has a flock of Raptors, making their opponent ditch their hand before strikes are chosen. The acting vampire then plays FoM, ends combat, their opponent redraws their hand, and then combat begins again, and they have to ditch their hand again. Do this 7 or 8 times and they will no longer have a deck. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "You cannot catch me, for I am Super-Freaky!" -Artie, the Strongest Man in the World

Tsz-ho Chan wrote: > > I realize that this question may have already been answered, but I somehow > missed it. Apologies for any inconvenience. > > According to the new stealth ruling, is it now possible to play Bum's > Rush, complete combat, then play Form of Mist to restart combat again? Yes. This has always been the RT's view of how Form of Mist could be used. The most recent ruling was issued to preserve this view. > By the way, has there been a ruling on the > Shadow Court Satyr with the Skin of Rock? The current ruling is that the card on the Satyr is usable "once per combat". But not all voices on the Rules Team have chimed in, so this ruling isn't set in stone yet. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com) Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

PDB6 wrote: > > The only situation where playing FoM during a Bum's Rush really has any > worthwhile effect (that I am aware of. Some weird Protean/Thaumaturgy > deck might be able to do something with Weather Controls and FoM...) is > when the acting vampire has a flock of Raptors, making their opponent > ditch their hand before strikes are chosen. The acting vampire then plays > FoM, ends combat, their opponent redraws their hand, and then combat > begins again, and they have to ditch their hand again. Do this 7 or 8 > times and they will no longer have a deck. try: bum's rush...play X drawing out the beasts....have some fun getting combat going for several rounds with aid from bats....FoM on a third or fourth round.....they take X unpreventable damage each round, plus bats...new combat, do it again.... salem....

Salem wrote: "try: bum's rush...play X drawing out the beasts....have some fun getting combat going for several rounds with aid from bats....FoM on a third or fourth round.....they take X unpreventable damage each round, plus bats...new combat, do it again...." Yeah, I suppose this would work, but it seems like an awful lot of trouble considering how everyone with Animalism has better ways to fight, and more successful ways at that. In this situation, how will the FoM do anything better than a Press? Besides, if you are a good combat deck, there should be no reason to rely on this sort of goofiness, as you should just kill them the first or second round without having to start combat over (unless they S:CE, but FoM on a Bum's Rush won't help in this case). The Gangrel (the only ones who can actually do this with the FoM...) can save the effort and just use Claws of the Dead. The Nosferatu can use Immortal Grapple and Potence hits (with the Drawing out the beast). The Ravanos can use Illusionary guns. Sure, there are all sorts of marginally useful and weird things you can do by playing FoM as your strike on the first round of a Bum's Rush, but not that many really worthwhile things. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > Tsz-ho Chan wrote: > > > > According to the new stealth ruling, is it now possible to play Bum's > > Rush, complete combat, then play Form of Mist to restart combat again? > > Yes. This has always been the RT's view of how Form of Mist could > be used. The most recent ruling was issued to preserve this view. I don't understand this! FoM is a strike, so according to the rules it cannot be played after combat is completed. I think the RT is obsessed with this single card and lets the game go down the gully because of this obsession. I would appreciate a serious attempt to look at the whole game by the RT... Werner Arend

In article <339BF1...@regency.wizards.com>, "L. Scott Johnson" <vte...@regency.wizards.com> writes >Tsz-ho Chan wrote: >> >> I realize that this question may have already been answered, but I somehow >> missed it. Apologies for any inconvenience. >> >> According to the new stealth ruling, is it now possible to play Bum's >> Rush, complete combat, then play Form of Mist to restart combat again? > >Yes. This has always been the RT's view of how Form of Mist could >be used. The most recent ruling was issued to preserve this view. > Yeah, but surely only if the combat resulted with a vampire other than the one chosen because you'd been blocked because otherwise the action had already finished and been successful. ie I rush Smudge, don't get blocked, Form of Mist, don't re-enter combat with Smudge because action was already successful -- James Coupe "It's not easy having a good time - even smilimg makes my face ache"

Werner Arend wrote: "On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > Tsz-ho Chan wrote: > > > > According to the new stealth ruling, is it now possible to play > >Bum's Rush, complete combat, then play Form of Mist to restart > >combat again? > > Yes. This has always been the RT's view of how Form of Mist could > be used. The most recent ruling was issued to preserve this view. I don't understand this! FoM is a strike, so according to the rules it cannot be played after combat is completed. I think the RT is obsessed with this single card and lets the game go down the gully because of this obsession. I would appreciate a serious attempt to look at the whole game by the RT..." Well, I think that LSJ was responding specifically to the idea of choosing FoM as a strike during a Bum's Rush and then as a result starting the combat over (due to the superior ability of FoM), and not implying (as the original question seemed to ask) that FoM can be used like a Psyche!, which it cannot. What LSJ wrote is correct, in the confines of the actual rules of the game, because he assumes (I assume...) that the person asking the question understands that FoM can only be played as a strike, not as a free "start over combat" card, like Psyche! is. He could have been clearer, though. [ quoted text not captured ]

PDB6 wrote: > Well, I think that LSJ was responding specifically to the idea of choosing > FoM as a strike during a Bum's Rush and then as a result starting the > combat over (due to the superior ability of FoM), and not implying (as the > original question seemed to ask) that FoM can be used like a Psyche!, > which it cannot. > > What LSJ wrote is correct, in the confines of the actual rules of the > game, because he assumes (I assume...) that the person asking the question > understands that FoM can only be played as a strike, not as a free "start > over combat" card, like Psyche! is. He could have been clearer, though. Thanks for covering for me, but truth is: I fouled up the answer because I mis-read the question. Your explanations of FoM are correct, however. [ quoted text not captured ]

Werner Arend wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > > Tsz-ho Chan wrote: > > > > > > According to the new stealth ruling, is it now possible to play Bum's > > > Rush, complete combat, then play Form of Mist to restart combat again? > > > > Yes. This has always been the RT's view of how Form of Mist could > > be used. The most recent ruling was issued to preserve this view. > > I don't understand this! FoM is a strike, so according to the rules it cannot > be played after combat is completed. I think the RT is obsessed with this > single card and lets the game go down the gully because of this obsession. I > would appreciate a serious attempt to look at the whole game by the RT... Oops. Sorry - you can play FoM to complete combat (and restart Bum's Rush's effect). But you can't play FoM after combat. I read the question too hastily. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > Yeah, but surely only if the combat resulted with a vampire other than > the one chosen because you'd been blocked because otherwise the action > had already finished and been successful. ie I rush Smudge, don't get > blocked, Form of Mist, don't re-enter combat with Smudge because action > was already successful Surely, indeed. The RT is perfectly clear on this point: they say that if the acting minion (executing a Bum's Rush action) is unblocked and strikes with superior Form of Mist (at any time during the combat) that the Bum's Rush action backs up to the "Choose Blockers" phase, ready to resolve again if again unblocked (complete with another optional maneuver). [ quoted text not captured ]

well having played the game a little bit i find the idea that FOMist can be used in the manner stated above as very disconcerting. Combat ends is already a extremely powerful ability, combined with +1 stealth and continue action makes FOMist the best card in the game already (especially as it cost's nothing to use it). The card should have erata in which superior ability is only usable during the first round of combat. ishmael