[un]Official Clan lasombra newsletter

I'm not sure who or where the official Lasombra newsletter guy is. Apols if I'm treading on turf that is not my own. I just thought that I would share my opinions on the Lasombra side of the Black Hand equation now that the expansion has finally landed. You can agree with these opinions, or gobble my chopper. Either is good. But first, let keep with tradition and kick the newsletter off with a bit of creative writing. Watch me haiku: **** No toilet paper Fortunately I have an Abyssal Hunter **** Recent additions to the Lasombra Clan have been a mixed bag. And not a quality mixed bag either - more like the reject mixed bag that all the other sticky fingered kids have thrown back into the mystery box because it's full of grotty licorice allsorts and copies of Alpha Flight #72. Marcus Vitel ADV proved [in all ways, including the artwork] that he was far better off sticking to banging the secretary and insider trading over at Ventrue HQ. Tobias was a decent addition to a deck with a PRE bolt on, but his ability to hang with Francisco, Marcus and Ambrosio without looking the tosser didn't excuse his woeful lack of POT, nor his virtually useless "special" [and I use the word all wary-like]. Lucita ADV is easily the best thing to happen to Team Lasombra in years, her merged and regular abilities just adding to the devilry of that new red dress. Cha-ching. One out of three? Not bad. Not good either, but as I'm constantly reminded by my partners in VTES crime, we who received the joy that was Baltimore Purge should never complain too loudly. However, Team Lasombra's weak spot has always been our rather ordinary collection of minions. With no-one below a 9 cap with all 3 in-clans at superior, my personal hopes were high for this expansion. So, let's take a gander at the latest lads and lassies to join our band of smooth criminals: Hester Reed 3 cap pot obt Sabbat First cab off the rank in terms of cap, the lovely Hester gives a POT/OBT combat deck the weenie it needed to lead the charge. Sadly, we're still lacking anyone under 6 with POT to back her up, but I suppose that's too much to ask. Is she uber? Nay. But she can get the job done, clad in a top hat and skin tight black PVC to boot. Artwork by Rebecca Guay doesn't hurt her case either. 2.5 out of 5. Sadly, we're followed by: Tabitha Fisk 4 cap obt pot pro Sabbat Unless we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra [and why the hell anyone would bother has always been beyond me], this gal is about as useful as testes on the padre. Shite artwork rounds off a thoroughly ordinary package, which will probably see many a public toilet wallpapered with Ms Fisk and her Shirley Temple bangs. 1 out of 5. Banjoko 5 cap DOM obt pot Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph. This boy rocks the bloody house, and no mistake. The lowest cap crim with DOM, free membership to the Hand clubhouse, and a Seraph title to boot. No useless out of clan bolt ons here folks, just pure Lasombra, straight down the line. With a sharp suit and artwork by Guay, I predict that this boy will become a cornerstone in almost every Lasombra deck from here to Neverland. Hoooooooo! 4 out of 5. Henri Lavenant Lasombra 7 cap DOM OBT pot qui Sabbat. Black Hand. Quietus. Yes, you heard me. QUIETUS. I would ask "why?" but I know that's about as futile as trying to gobble my own chopper. Everything else about this lad smacks of greatness. DOM. OBT. Hand membership. He could have been a true contender. Let's face it, he still manages to flush Tobias' head down the bog. But QUIETUS?! Put it away, frenchie. 3.5 out of 5. Nahir 10 cap DOM OBT POT ANI tha Sabbat. While Nahir is ready you may take a master phase action and pay 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter gives +1 hand size. +1 bleed. Ah yes, just when we've finished scratching our heads about Henri's penchant for diddling arabs, we're confronted with this car wreck of a vampire. 10 points, no title, and a special which, while being sorta useful, makes the cost of one of Elton's wigs seem like tuppence. But the crowning turd in the waterpipe? ANI. What the hell are we supposed to do with ANI? Could it have been FOR? Noooo. Far too useful. Let's give her ANI instead. And why? I'll tell you "why". So she can blow goats, that's "why". And blow them she does. 1 out of 5. So again, a mixed bag, covered with the sticky fingerprints of a dozen snotty nosed predecessors. Does the brilliance of Banjoko make up for the crime against humanity that is Nahir? Well, sort of. But a 6 cap with all 3 in clans at superior somehow still seems a long way off. Hell, I think most of us would settle for a 7 or 8 cap with OBT, DOM, POT. Is it too much to ask for a minion who can do it all at superior for less than the cost of a holiday in the frickin' Hamptons? It seems so at this point. So, what else did Team Lasombra specifically get out of Black Hand? Two cards were given us, in addition to our 5 vamps. These are: Tenebrous Form Action Modifier 1 blood [obt]: +1 stealth [OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to attempt to block. Oh wow, another Obten stealth card that costs blood. Gee, we needed that like Jacko needed another child molestation charge, didn't we? Unless you buy into the futility that is Shadow Twin, you shouldn't really give a toss that your opponents are paying a Blood to block you. What you should care about is getting your action through unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways to do it? Yes. So will this card see action in any of my decks, as opposed to Shadow Play, Shroud of Night, Shroud of Absence and Blanket of Night? Nay, laddie. I wouldn't bury mah turtle in that mud puddle. We also received: Abyssal Hunter Ally 2 pool Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase. Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated strike, even if that strike is prevented. I had high hopes for this boy. Was I disappointed? Well, despite my haiku, the jury is still out on this one. First, let's take a look at this chappie's name. Abyssal Hunter. Promissory? Somewhat, yes. What you would reasonably expect from a guy called the "Abyssal hunter" would be someone who can rush at stealth, yes? Well, this demonic charlatan can't rush, and he can't do bugger all at stealth. He's not unique, so conceivably you could build an army of him. But is there a point? Can this boy stack up tot the War Ghoul, who seems to be the yard stick of allies at this point? Well, yes, he can. He's half the price and then less some, because he doesn't cost you two actions to recruit like War Ghoul does. Two hunters could take out a War Ghoul, one after the other, with an end result of three dead allies. A win? No. But not a bad start. Is he worth paying 1 blood per turn for? Hmm. Not sure about that one. Build an army, and he starts to get mighty pricey. In fact, more and more, Abyssal Hunter reminds me of a drunken mate at the local pub. Pros: Good value [1 pool with a Charisma] Nice to have on your side in a fight, especially when there's 6 of him. Can take a reasonable beating without peeing his panties [4 life, nothing to be sneezed at] Cons Can't find his way to the pisser without a computer [no bleed] A night out with 6 of him usually spells a sore bank account [expensive, but not unavoidable upkeep] Will abandon you for the first tart who flashes her bazoons at him. [Usual Ally vulnerabilities to Far mastery, Entrancement, etc] Is he worth building a deck out of? Probably. Finding some way to prevent 6 damage a turn will be interesting, but I guess that's what Ambrosius the Ferryman is for. All in all, he's a bit like a high school girl - interesting enough to fiddle with, but I'm still not sure if he'll be worth the hassle. So, of our two cards, one is pretty much shite, and the other is a bit of an unknown until he's seen some serious road trials. Not a bad result. And again, we do have Baltimore Purge, so we should complain at an ear splitting volume anyways. All told, not a bad expansion for us. Banjoko and Henri open the door to many a Black hand opportunity, Capitalist is a sure fire winner for any Lasombra deck with even a hint of S/B, and the generic Sabbat cards like Flaming Candle, Zillah's Tears and the new Communal Haven all hold great promise. Not a bad effort. Black Hand certainly wipes it's bottom with Anarchs, no mistake. noodleboy

"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote > > No toilet paper > Fortunately I have an > Abyssal Hunter Can I have that card after you're done with it? > because it's full of grotty licorice allsorts and copies of Alpha > Flight #72. Funny, I own that comic. Alpha Flight used to be great when Byrne was on it. But then I am Canadian, so maybe I'm biased. > Marcus Vitel ADV proved [in all ways, including the artwork] that he > was far better off sticking to banging the secretary and insider > trading over at Ventrue HQ. Agreed. Not a big fan of the ADV version. The normal version is great though. > Tobias was a decent addition to a deck > with a PRE bolt on, but his ability to hang with Francisco, Marcus and > Ambrosio without looking the tosser didn't excuse his woeful lack of > POT, nor his virtually useless "special" [and I use the word all > wary-like]. Frankly, I play a lot of DOM/OBT/PRE decks and I never use Tobias in them. His lack of votes really hurts. I'd much rather use Jessica and lose out on DOM. Just the one vote alone has been worth more than Tobias' special. > Lucita ADV is easily the best thing to happen to Team > Lasombra in years, her merged and regular abilities just adding to the > devilry of that new red dress. Is it really worth putting both versions in a crypt? Like many of the advanced vampires, I would usually rather just have an extra vampire instead. Lucita getting votes and a semi-useful ability isn't terrible, but it doesn't seem like it would be worth it to me. But I haven't even tried it yet, so maybe it's better than it seems to be. > Not good either, but as I'm constantly reminded by my partners in VTES > crime, we who received the joy that was Baltimore Purge should never > complain too loudly. Not specificallty Lasombra, but pretty much so. I'm always surprised when I see non-Lasombra BP decks that don't throw in a token Aaron Dugan or Cameron. Why Purge if you can't name the targets? > However, Team Lasombra's weak spot has always been our rather ordinary > collection of minions. With no-one below a 9 cap with all 3 in-clans > at superior, my personal hopes were high for this expansion. I have not found this to be a huge problem. Unlike a lot of clans, the Lasombra have very effective fatties. They are all well worth their cost. You just have to build the deck skewed towards fatter vampires, and you're golden. I agree that they could use a few more small vampires though. Apparently so do the designers. > Hester Reed > 3 cap pot obt > Sabbat > > First cab off the rank in terms of cap, the lovely Hester gives a > POT/OBT combat deck the weenie it needed to lead the charge. Sadly, > we're still lacking anyone under 6 with POT to back her up, but I > suppose that's too much to ask. Is she uber? Nay. But she can get the > job done, clad in a top hat and skin tight black PVC to boot. Artwork > by Rebecca Guay doesn't hurt her case either. > 2.5 out of 5. Sounds like some nice art, can't wait to see it. She is also ideal for a Shadow Twin deck, an archetype that was kicked in the teeth when they changed The Embrace (which still annoys me). > Tabitha Fisk > 4 cap obt pot pro > Sabbat > > Unless we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra [and why the hell > anyone would bother has always been beyond me], this gal is about as > useful as testes on the padre. Shite artwork rounds off a thoroughly > ordinary package, which will probably see many a public toilet > wallpapered with Ms Fisk and her Shirley Temple bangs. > 1 out of 5. I think you may be looking at this in the wrong way. As a Lasombra she may bot be fantastic, I agree. But as a POT/PRO vampire, she's pretty good. There is a younger vampire with this combination, but it's Rex... who doesn't really count. But Tabitha can play Immortal Grapple + Claws for a pretty nasty strike. There are 5 other POT/PRO vampires under 7 capacity, making POT/PRO a bit more viable as an off-discipline combo, which is a good thing I think. And like her sister above, she can also do the Shadow Twin mambo. Shadow Twin decks pretty much have to be weenified to be successful, like the very similar Cryptic Mission decks, but I'd be willing to pay 4 just for her OBT in a deck such as that. > Banjoko > 5 cap DOM obt pot > Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph. > > This boy rocks the bloody house, and no mistake. The lowest cap crim > with DOM, free membership to the Hand clubhouse, and a Seraph title to > boot. No useless out of clan bolt ons here folks, just pure Lasombra, > straight down the line. With a sharp suit and artwork by Guay, I > predict that this boy will become a cornerstone in almost every > Lasombra deck from here to Neverland. Hoooooooo! > 4 out of 5. How much are Black Hand and Seraph worth in "points" do you think? Seems like this vampire would be worth 5 just for the disciplines alone. Keep in mind that with inferior OBT he will not be much of a bleeder. He will be paying 1 blood to bleed with Shadow Play, and *can't* bleed with Shroud of Night. He could use Shroud of Absence or Blanket of Night, but who owns any of those cards? Still, to me this guy looks more like a 5 out of 5. > Henri Lavenant Lasombra > 7 cap DOM OBT pot qui > Sabbat. Black Hand. > > Quietus. Yes, you heard me. QUIETUS. I would ask "why?" but I know > that's about as futile as trying to gobble my own chopper. I'm going to assume that this quaint Australian (?) expression is not referring to eating a helicopter or motorcycle? :) > Everything > else about this lad smacks of greatness. DOM. OBT. Hand membership. He > could have been a true contender. Let's face it, he still manages to > flush Tobias' head down the bog. But QUIETUS?! Put it away, frenchie. > 3.5 out of 5. OBT/QUI --> Let's see. Shadow Twin + Blood Clots might be allright. That's about it though. POT/QUI --> Use all those cool QUI hand strikes that nobody bothers with like Dagon's Call DOM/QUI --> Deflection, Conditioning, Mind Rape... oh wait those are all just DOM :) Again, I'm not sure what points Black Hand is worth, though I imagine a consensus will develop eventually. Although the "points" system would normally equate DOM, OBT and POT as all being worth 2 points each, like the Giovanni, the Lasombra don't tend to use a lot of Potence so what it comes down to is that DOM/OBT is worth a lot more than DOM/POT or OBT/POT. Just for Lasombra sneak-bleed alone, this vampire is pretty powerful. > Nahir > 10 cap DOM OBT POT ANI tha > Sabbat. While Nahir is ready you may take a master phase action and > pay 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter > gives +1 hand size. +1 bleed. > > Ah yes, just when we've finished scratching our heads about Henri's > penchant for diddling arabs, ??? Is this meant to be a reference to Camus? > we're confronted with this car wreck of a > vampire. I suspect that her victims will look more like the car wreck actually. > 10 points, no title, and a special which, while being sorta > useful, makes the cost of one of Elton's wigs seem like tuppence. But > the crowning turd in the waterpipe? ANI. What the hell are we supposed > to do with ANI? I would much rather have ANI than a *lot* of disciplines. ANI combat is not only effective as hell, it's also a lot of fun to play. OBT/ANI --> Black Metamorphosis + Drawing Out the Beast + Carrion Crows = Nastiness DOM/ANI --> Fun, but probably not very effective. POT/ANI --> See Nosferatu. Of course, you can get the combination with them much cheaper. Animalism alone gives a deck more options. Raven Spies, Owl Companion, Tier of Souls. There are uses for Lasombra here, same as there would for any clans who had ANI tacked on. Funny how people don't even play Followers of Set unless they have DOM tacked on (sigh) but tack ANI on a clan who already has DOM and people complain :) > Could it have been FOR? Noooo. Far too useful. Let's > give her ANI instead. Is FOR better than ANI? Depends what you use her for I guess. > And why? I'll tell you "why". So she can blow > goats, that's "why". And blow them she does. > 1 out of 5. Wow. I am disagreeing with you on almost everything so far :) Though I suppose, technically speaking, that "blowing goats" would indeed fall under the Animalism umbrella. > Hell, I think most of us would settle for a 7 or 8 cap with OBT, DOM, > POT. It would be nice, but I'm perfectly happy with the existing Lasombras. > Tenebrous Form > Action Modifier > 1 blood > [obt]: +1 stealth > [OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to > attempt to block. > > Oh wow, another Obten stealth card that costs blood. Gee, we needed > that like Jacko needed another child molestation charge, didn't we? Hmm... this is the third sexual deviancy reference in this newsletter. What would Freud say about a Sire's Index Finger I wonder? > Unless you buy into the futility that is Shadow Twin, you shouldn't > really give a toss that your opponents are paying a Blood to block > you. Shadow Twin is futile??? Pre-Embrace, that type of deck won its share of tournaments. I don't really like the pay 1 blood to block thing (not when we *have* to pay a blood, sans Path), but it does seem like this card would jive well with Shadow Twin. > What you should care about is getting your action through > unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways > to do it? Yes. What if your intention is to lower your opponent's blood? Blood is fuel for vampires. Without blood, they start to become useless. They start to become targets for Banishment (which the Lasombra excel at btw). > So will this card see action in any of my decks, as > opposed to Shadow Play, Shroud of Night, Shroud of Absence and Blanket > of Night? Nay, laddie. But it is an *additional* stealth card. I've always found that I didn't have enough choice in the OBT stealth cards. Of course I don't own any Blankets and have only one Shroud of Absence. But I really think the added stealth modifier is fantastic just as *another option*. That no-repeat-action-modifier rule really hurts sometimes, you know? > I wouldn't bury mah turtle in that mud puddle. This may be another sexual deviancy reference, I'm not really sure. Isn't there an Australian newsgroup where you can all speak to each other in your own language? :) > Abyssal Hunter > Ally > 2 pool > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal > Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase. > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated > strike, even if that strike is prevented. > > I had high hopes for this boy. Was I disappointed? Well, despite my > haiku, the jury is still out on this one. Looks pretty nasty to me. Yet another way of removing blood from vampires (Gregory Winter, Ghouls of PM, etc), though this time he can knock the vampires right into torpor. For 2 pool and a minorly irritating flaw, that's pretty good in my books. > What you would reasonably expect from a guy > called the "Abyssal hunter" would be someone who can rush at stealth, > yes? Not sure that the name really matters all that much. > Well, this demonic charlatan can't rush, and he can't do bugger > all at stealth. He has a different form of stealth though. The kind that says, "block me and I punch you for 3". Have you never heard of "Potence stealth?" :) > He's not unique, so conceivably you could build an army of him. Dunno about an army, but I can see maybe two or three. > But is > there a point? Can this boy stack up tot the War Ghoul, who seems to > be the yard stick of allies at this point? Not really. Muddles is still nice. Amam is one of my faves. Gregory Winter works well. Renegade Garou are powerhouses (albeit costly ones). From the looks of this one, I'd say he's a mid-range ally. > Well, yes, he can. He's > half the price and then less some, because he doesn't cost you two > actions to recruit like War Ghoul does. Which has never been that bad of a trade-off for a War Ghoul really... > Is he worth paying 1 blood per > turn for? Hmm. Not sure about that one. Build an army, and he starts > to get mighty pricey. Use a 1 cap vampire in a hunting loop to pay for the cost maybe? You're basically taking one damage each turn to cause one damage each turn. Which doesn't look great, but if you build a deck around blood gain for you and blood denial for your opponents, this starts to hurt them. A lot. > In fact, more and more, Abyssal Hunter reminds me of a drunken mate at > the local pub. Why, what does the picture show? > Pros: > > Can take a reasonable beating without peeing his panties [4 life, > nothing to be sneezed at] Not to mention he hits for 3. He can survive a Trap while torporizing an elder vampire. That's worth something right there. In fact, you could use him *just* for this combo, so as to not worry so much about the upkeep cost. He burns, so what. He only cost you 2 pool and maybe 1 damage. > Cons > > Can't find his way to the pisser without a computer [no bleed] Thanks for translating this one :) > A night out with 6 of him usually spells a sore bank account > [expensive, but not unavoidable upkeep] Six of him would be way too much IMHO. This ally could not be played like Shambling Hordes (another strong ally I forgot to mention above). > Will abandon you for the first tart who flashes her bazoons at him. > [Usual Ally vulnerabilities to Far mastery, Entrancement, etc] That's not really a con to this card alone, but allies in general. But this wouldn't always be a desirable ally to steal. It cost you 2 pool, it costs them the damage upkeep, which their deck is probably not built to maintain. > Is he worth building a deck out of? Probably. Finding some way to > prevent 6 damage a turn will be interesting, but I guess that's what > Ambrosius the Ferryman is for. Nice! That would work well enough. BTW is Abyssal Hunter a Lasombra card or Obtenebration? You don't mention that above. > Not a bad effort. Black Hand certainly wipes it's bottom with Anarchs, > no mistake. Agreed. Cheers, WES

> > > Nahir > > 10 cap DOM OBT POT ANI tha > > Sabbat. While Nahir is ready you may take a master phase action and > > pay 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter > > gives +1 hand size. +1 bleed. > > > > Ah yes, just when we've finished scratching our heads about Henri's > > penchant for diddling arabs, > > ??? > > Is this meant to be a reference to Camus? > > > we're confronted with this car wreck of a > > vampire. > > I suspect that her victims will look more like the car wreck actually. > I can't believe this. This vamp has an incredible special. She had no votes, so what? now you could have a motive to pack either cardinal benedictions or Regent on your deck, depending upon you go for the vote or combat angle > > 10 points, no title, and a special which, while being sorta > > useful, makes the cost of one of Elton's wigs seem like tuppence. But > > the crowning turd in the waterpipe? ANI. What the hell are we supposed > > to do with ANI? > > I would much rather have ANI than a *lot* of disciplines. ANI combat is > not only effective as hell, it's also a lot of fun to play. > > OBT/ANI --> Black Metamorphosis + Drawing Out the Beast + Carrion Crows > = Nastiness > DOM/ANI --> Fun, but probably not very effective. > POT/ANI --> See Nosferatu. Of course, you can get the combination with > them much cheaper. Or teaming up with some of those !nos that pack DOM ANI POT. Also, his special is an invitation to build tooolbox decks: With a hand of 10, you can allow yourself to keep 2/3 contingency cards in your hand. Still not sure what to do with them, though. But DOM alone allows you to beam up the !nos, something they ussually lack of, and deflections, so you don't need to rush backwards from the first turn. I'm trying to build this deck by now, but I have a problem around maneuvers. Should pack either close/long ranged combat. Corporal reservoir/leather jacket/guardian angel for damage prevention, too. Also, forget ANI for a moment. It's just ANOTHER vamp with DOM OBT THA. We've all seen what ayelea, kij, antonio and Elena are able to do. Only for the access to perfect clarity, it's worth. <snipped> > > Tenebrous Form > > Action Modifier > > 1 blood > > [obt]: +1 stealth > > [OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to > > attempt to block. > > <snipped> > I don't really like the pay 1 blood to block thing (not when we *have* > to pay a blood, sans Path), but it does seem like this card would jive > well with Shadow Twin. > Also, stack it over dominion (master for black hand) and sabbat priest. That's a "burn 3 blood to ATTEMPT to block this action" combo. It's one of the best ways to hose persistent blockers. > > What you should care about is getting your action through > > unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways > > to do it? Yes. > > What if your intention is to lower your opponent's blood? Blood is fuel > for vampires. Without blood, they start to become useless. They start to > become targets for Banishment (which the Lasombra excel at btw). > Completely agree. Pack some holds there, also. And slaughtering the herd, too. <snipped> > > Abyssal Hunter > > Ally > > 2 pool > > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. > > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal > > Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase. > > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated > > strike, even if that strike is prevented. > > <snipped> > > Is he worth building a deck out of? Probably. Finding some way to > > prevent 6 damage a turn will be interesting, but I guess that's what > > Ambrosius the Ferryman is for. > > Nice! That would work well enough. That won't work. Abyssal hunters damages VAMPIRES, not minions. But I'm sure hungry coyote/life in the city/hunting ground(s)/Chalice of kinship will be really usefull to pay the upkeed. Or play ex-nihilo somehow. > > BTW is Abyssal Hunter a Lasombra card or Obtenebration? You don't > mention that above. > It requires Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

"Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote > > Also, forget ANI for a moment. It's just ANOTHER vamp with DOM OBT THA. > We've all seen what ayelea, kij, antonio and Elena are able to do. Only for > the access to perfect clarity, it's worth. Come to think of it, the [POT tha] is a combo people seem to like... Blood Fury et al. I've not seen anybody have a lot of success with that combo, but people do seem to keep trying. > > > Abyssal Hunter > > > Ally > > > 2 pool > > > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. > > > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal > > > Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase. > > > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated > > > strike, even if that strike is prevented. > > > > <snipped> > > > > Is he worth building a deck out of? Probably. Finding some way to > > > prevent 6 damage a turn will be interesting, but I guess that's what > > > Ambrosius the Ferryman is for. > > > > Nice! That would work well enough. > > That won't work. Abyssal hunters damages VAMPIRES, not minions. But I'm sure > hungry coyote/life in the city/hunting ground(s)/Chalice of kinship will be > really usefull to pay the upkeed. Or play ex-nihilo somehow. I was going by what was printed in this newsletter. I don't have access to any cards yet. Does it actually say 'vampires' on the card? If so, why does this say 'minions'? Dammit, I want my Black Hand cards Raille! Give them to me! :) > > BTW is Abyssal Hunter a Lasombra card or Obtenebration? You don't > > mention that above. > > > It requires Lasombra Not quite as good... I'd rather have it be an OBT card so other vamps can use it, but whatever. Still a damn good card IMHO. Cheers, WES

noodleboy expounded: > Tabitha Fisk > 4 cap obt pot pro > Sabbat > anyone would bother has always been beyond me], this gal is about as > useful as testes on the padre. Shite artwork rounds off a thoroughly Good for screwing the innocent? > Abyssal Hunter > Ally > 2 pool > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal > Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase. > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated > strike, even if that strike is prevented. > He's not unique, so conceivably you could build an army of him. But is > there a point? Can this boy stack up tot the War Ghoul, who seems to > be the yard stick of allies at this point? Well, yes, he can. He's > half the price and then less some, because he doesn't cost you two > actions to recruit like War Ghoul does. Two hunters could take out a > War Ghoul, one after the other, with an end result of three dead > allies. A win? No. But not a bad start. Is he worth paying 1 blood per > turn for? Hmm. Not sure about that one. Build an army, and he starts > to get mighty pricey. Build an army. Put a weenie vamp in torpor. Do all the damage from your army to the weenie in torpor. Wonder if this was intended... I just love the way you lambast everything and then conclude that BH is good :)

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) writes: > Abyssal Hunter > Ally > 2 pool > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal > Hunter *deals 1 damage to a minion you control* during your untap phase. > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated > strike, even if that strike is prevented. That text is incorrect. It should be: "During your untap phase, *a ready vampire* you control takes 1 damage." So you cannot use Ambrosius or a torporized vampire to support an army of Abyssal Hunters. (And it's "ranged aggravated *damage*", not "strike". So even enviromental aggro at long range will burn him.) -- hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid, iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03111...@posting.google.com>... > We also received: > > Abyssal Hunter > Ally > 2 pool > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal > Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase. > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated > strike, even if that strike is prevented. > He's not unique, so conceivably you could build an army of him. But is > there a point? Can this boy stack up tot the War Ghoul, who seems to > be the yard stick of allies at this point? Well, yes, he can. He's > half the price and then less some, because he doesn't cost you two > actions to recruit like War Ghoul does. Two hunters could take out a > War Ghoul, one after the other, with an end result of three dead > allies. A win? No. But not a bad start. Is he worth paying 1 blood per > turn for? Hmm. Not sure about that one. Build an army, and he starts > to get mighty pricey. Well, notice that the hunter can ping himself for one... interesting, and better if you consider the mystic for healing purposes... Silly really. But perhaps slightly more effective... maybe... ~SV

=?iso-8859-15?q?Janne_H=E4gglund?= expounded: > nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) writes: > > > Abyssal Hunter > > Ally > > 2 pool > > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. > > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal > > Hunter *deals 1 damage to a minion you control* during your untap phase. > > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated > > strike, even if that strike is prevented. > > > That text is incorrect. It should be: "During your untap phase, *a ready > vampire* you control takes 1 damage." Well that makes quite a difference. > (And it's "ranged aggravated *damage*", not "strike". So even enviromental > aggro at long range will burn him.) Does a Walk of Flame at close range qualify? ie. is it the strike itself or the range at which it was played?

>Banjoko >5 cap DOM obt pot >Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph. > >This boy rocks the bloody house, and no mistake. The lowest cap crim >with DOM, free membership to the Hand clubhouse, and a Seraph title to >boot. No useless out of clan bolt ons here folks, just pure Lasombra, >straight down the line. With a sharp suit and artwork by Guay, I >predict that this boy will become a cornerstone in almost every >Lasombra deck from here to Neverland. Hoooooooo! >4 out of 5. I was expecting you to rate him higher given comments. Given your probable scale, I'd concur with your 4. Normally, wouldn't bother mentioning this, but there's controversy ahead where I find myself surprised that I agree with someone. >Nahir >10 cap DOM OBT POT ANI tha >Sabbat. While Nahir is ready you may take a master phase action and >pay 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter >gives +1 hand size. +1 bleed. > >Ah yes, just when we've finished scratching our heads about Henri's >penchant for diddling arabs, we're confronted with this car wreck of a >vampire. 10 points, no title, and a special which, while being sorta >useful, makes the cost of one of Elton's wigs seem like tuppence. But >the crowning turd in the waterpipe? ANI. What the hell are we supposed >to do with ANI? Could it have been FOR? Noooo. Far too useful. Let's >give her ANI instead. And why? I'll tell you "why". So she can blow >goats, that's "why". And blow them she does. >1 out of 5. I have an Ani/Obt deck. It was quite amusing to realize which vampires combine the disciplines and to think about how often you see them played. Tossed a copy of Nahir in for a game last night and never got her, probably never will as I'm getting fairly bored with the deck. Not that I think she fits all that well as my next highest cap is 6. Anyway, I was expecting hardly any criticism for her given how much I think people overrate increased hand size and discipline combinations on fatties. Except for the part about Animalism which hardly matters, you pretty much addressed why I have so little regard for her. >So, what else did Team Lasombra specifically get out of Black Hand? >Two cards were given us, in addition to our 5 vamps. These are: > >Tenebrous Form >Action Modifier >1 blood >[obt]: +1 stealth >[OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to >attempt to block. > >Oh wow, another Obten stealth card that costs blood. Gee, we needed >that like Jacko needed another child molestation charge, didn't we? >Unless you buy into the futility that is Shadow Twin, you shouldn't >really give a toss that your opponents are paying a Blood to block >you. What you should care about is getting your action through >unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways >to do it? Yes. So will this card see action in any of my decks, as >opposed to Shadow Play, Shroud of Night, Shroud of Absence and Blanket >of Night? Nay, laddie. I wouldn't bury mah turtle in that mud puddle. I think it will see plenty of action. I've already gotten into a debate as to whether it's good or great. It has a pseudostealth deterrent effect to go with being the usual pay 1 blood for 1 stealth on any action Obt stealth. >We also received: > >Abyssal Hunter >Ally >2 pool >Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. >Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal >Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase. >Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated >strike, even if that strike is prevented. > >I had high hopes for this boy. Was I disappointed? Well, despite my >haiku, the jury is still out on this one. The jury being out is also how I feel. I'm sure I'll try playing the obvious Shadow Twin Hunter deck. Not clear on what else it's good for. Splash for rush defense, unblockability defense, just being an annoying ally with some toolbox elements?

> Build an army. Put a weenie vamp in torpor. Do all the damage from your > army to the weenie in torpor. Wonder if this was intended... Don't have the card in front of me. Was going from memory when I wrote the text. Can you really do the damage to a vamp that isn't ready? Zounds, man! > I just love the way you lambast everything and then conclude that BH is > good :) Didn't lambast everything. Banjoko got two thumbs up. :) Specifically, I don't think the Lasombra made out like bandits from Black hand. Two pretty good vamps is about all they got in a Clan sense. But the other generic Sabbat cards in the set gave Sabbat as a whole a nice boost, which the Lasombra benefit from. And Banjoko really is tits. noodleboy

noodleboy expounded: > > Build an army. Put a weenie vamp in torpor. Do all the damage from your > > army to the weenie in torpor. Wonder if this was intended... > > Don't have the card in front of me. Was going from memory when I wrote > the text. Can you really do the damage to a vamp that isn't ready? > Zounds, man! Apparently not. I was going from your card text which I assumed to be accurate. The actual text says "ready vampire" so he can't take the dmg either. The only way round it is not to have any ready vamps :)

> Can I have that card after you're done with it? You won't want it. I had spicy chicken for lunch. > Funny, I own that comic. Alpha Flight used to be great when Byrne was on > it. But then I am Canadian, so maybe I'm biased. That was the first comic I ever owned. Got it in a grab bag at a local carnival. Became an addict after that. But I still ended up owning about 7 copies of it, for some weird reason, eh? :) > Agreed. Not a big fan of the ADV version. The normal version is great > though. > Frankly, I play a lot of DOM/OBT/PRE decks and I never use Tobias in > them. His lack of votes really hurts. I'd much rather use Jessica and > lose out on DOM. Just the one vote alone has been worth more than > Tobias' special. Yeah, Tobias is a bit of a tool. Hopefully Henri flushing his head down the bog will knock some sense into him. > Is it really worth putting both versions in a crypt? Like many of the > advanced vampires, I would usually rather just have an extra vampire > instead. Lucita getting votes and a semi-useful ability isn't terrible, > but it doesn't seem like it would be worth it to me. But I haven't even > tried it yet, so maybe it's better than it seems to be. She's worth it. Her dual specials working in tandem make her truly frightening. She works very well in a crypt with her daddy and Marcus [during his insider trading days]. > Not specificallty Lasombra, but pretty much so. I'm always surprised > when I see non-Lasombra BP decks that don't throw in a token Aaron Dugan > or Cameron. Why Purge if you can't name the targets? While Aaron Duggan is undisputedly the most powerful Lasombra to walk the face of this earth, he's not much good to Purge with. Has to be a younger vamp. He's good to haul Ambrosio's fat arse out of torpor with though. :) > I have not found this to be a huge problem. Unlike a lot of clans, the > Lasombra have very effective fatties. They are all well worth their > cost. You just have to build the deck skewed towards fatter vampires, > and you're golden. I agree that they could use a few more small vampires > though. Apparently so do the designers. Point is that most good lasombra decks are built around the fatties. They don't have the minions to build a good, mid pointer deck. Limits strategy, because every deck has to have bloat/taps to pay for the vamps. > How much are Black Hand and Seraph worth in "points" do you think? Seems > like this vampire would be worth 5 just for the disciplines alone. Black Hand and Seraph seem to be free. As you say, Banjoko is a 5 pointer on disciplines alone. The Godmother is another example. She has 7 points of disciplines, AND a great special, AND she's a Seraph. > Keep in mind that with inferior OBT he will not be much of a bleeder. He > will be paying 1 blood to bleed with Shadow Play, and *can't* bleed with > Shroud of Night. He could use Shroud of Absence or Blanket of Night, but > who owns any of those cards? [holds up hand] :) > I'm going to assume that this quaint Australian (?) expression is not > referring to eating a helicopter or motorcycle? :) Australian, yeah. But i think "chopper" is an English expression. And no, it bears no resemblance to a helicopter unless I get really drunk. > OBT/QUI --> Let's see. Shadow Twin + Blood Clots might be allright. > That's about it though. > POT/QUI --> Use all those cool QUI hand strikes that nobody bothers with > like Dagon's Call Nobody bothers with them for a reason, matey. :) And yes, while I agree that you might be able to build a semi-useful deck out of that combo [if you can find the other minions with the right disciplines] it's not going to be that useful 95% of the time. > ??? > > Is this meant to be a reference to Camus? No, it a ref to henri's quietus, and what he did to get taught it. :) > Animalism alone gives a deck more options. Raven Spies, Owl Companion, > Tier of Souls. There are uses for Lasombra here, same as there would for > any clans who had ANI tacked on. How many other lasombra have ani? Don't have my ELDB here, but from memory, it's only one or two. At most. Should lasombra players bother faffing about with an ANI bolt-on just to entertain this joker's presence in a crypt? Personally, i wouldn't use this fraud to line my budgie cage. Despite the great artwork. > Is FOR better than ANI? Depends what you use her for I guess. Lucita, Aurora, Ambrosio and Marcus all have FOR or for. FOR bolt ons to Lasombra are already reasonably common, because the vampires exist to make the option viable. But yes, it does depend on what you use her for. > Wow. I am disagreeing with you on almost everything so far :) That's cool. Can't make everyone happy. > Shadow Twin is futile??? Pre-Embrace, that type of deck won its share of > tournaments. But we AREN'T pre-embrace deflowering. So, Shadow Twin IS futile. > I don't really like the pay 1 blood to block thing (not when we *have* > to pay a blood, sans Path), but it does seem like this card would jive > well with Shadow Twin. Indeed. They are both jiving together in my box of "cards to be burned when society collapses and we need fuel for fire" box right now, along with Teresa Rotas and "Liberty Club Intrigue". > What if your intention is to lower your opponent's blood? Then you should probably stop faffing about with Team Lasombra and go play a Tremere Cryptic Mission/Theft of Vitae/gregory Winter type deck, which will serve you much better. :) > But it is an *additional* stealth card. I've always found that I didn't > have enough choice in the OBT stealth cards. Of course I don't own any > Blankets and have only one Shroud of Absence. But I really think the > added stealth modifier is fantastic just as *another option*. That > no-repeat-action-modifier rule really hurts sometimes, you know? yeah, maybe I AM spoiled because i've managed to pick a few Blankets and Shrouds here and there. > This may be another sexual deviancy reference, I'm not really sure. > Isn't there an Australian newsgroup where you can all speak to each > other in your own language? :) It's a Simpsons ref. Groundskeeper Willy is one of the greatest sages of our time. > Looks pretty nasty to me. Yet another way of removing blood from > vampires (Gregory Winter, Ghouls of PM, etc), though this time he can > knock the vampires right into torpor. For 2 pool and a minorly > irritating flaw, that's pretty good in my books. Not minorly irritating. Costly. Particularly when there's a few of him. But, Timlagor may have discovered the loophole that catapulted this chappie into greatness. Big props to him. > Why, what does the picture show? A shadowy thing moving towards some vampire, who looks like he's made a boo boo in his panties. > Not to mention he hits for 3. He can survive a Trap while torporizing an > elder vampire. That's worth something right there. In fact, you could > use him *just* for this combo, so as to not worry so much about the > upkeep cost. He burns, so what. He only cost you 2 pool and maybe 1 > damage. Playing traps would indicate you've built a deck around him, which means you'd probably like to keep him alive. And yeah, 2 pool is cheap, 1 with Charisma is even cheaper. hence, his price is a "pro". > Thanks for translating this one :) No worries. :) > Six of him would be way too much IMHO. This ally could not be played > like Shambling Hordes (another strong ally I forgot to mention above). I think he can be. I think one or two of him isn't worth it. I'd much rather throw in another couple of Entombments if I want to torpor a couple of vamps and pay 4 pool and some blood for the privilege. He would seem to me to work best en masse. > Nice! That would work well enough. Apparently not. Damages vamps not minions. Must have misread it. Problem with not having the card in front of you while you bag it. :) noodleboy

> I can't believe this. This vamp has an incredible special. She had no votes, > so what? now you could have a motive to pack either cardinal benedictions or > Regent on your deck, depending upon you go for the vote or combat angle She doesn't have an incredible special in my opinion. She has a special that you'd maybe use twice in a game, that costs you 2 pool each time you do [opportunity cost of playing an Ascendence included] and you could pretty easily duplicate with an Elder Library and Chronicle of the Lost Tribe. Increased handsize is a crutch. > Or teaming up with some of those !nos that pack DOM ANI POT. And why would you do this? > Also, forget ANI for a moment. It's just ANOTHER vamp with DOM OBT THA. > We've all seen what ayelea, kij, antonio and Elena are able to do. Only for > the access to perfect clarity, it's worth. 10 pool for access to an inferior perfect clarity? As you've pointed out, ayelea, kij, antonio and Elena can already do it. Don't forget Ian too. Do we need another 10 point addition to this one-trick-pony line up? > That won't work. Abyssal hunters damages VAMPIRES, not minions. But I'm sure > hungry coyote/life in the city/hunting ground(s)/Chalice of kinship will be > really usefull to pay the upkeed. Or play ex-nihilo somehow. Ex-Nihilo was my next thought. Although it seems that there's a better way, at least until an errata comes out. noodleboy

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:49:31 -0000, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] It's got an R, and is therefore Ranged. what i want to know is, other than, say, Dawn Op/Murder of Crows, what other ranged envorinmental agg damage is there? Oh, Ghoul Retainer with Flamer Thrower/Ivory Bow i guess. ok, there's probably a lot.... salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

On 20 Nov 2003 19:54:44 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) scrawled: >>Tenebrous Form >>Action Modifier >>1 blood >>[obt]: +1 stealth >>[OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to >>attempt to block. >> >>Oh wow, another Obten stealth card that costs blood. Gee, we needed >>that like Jacko needed another child molestation charge, didn't we? >>Unless you buy into the futility that is Shadow Twin, you shouldn't >>really give a toss that your opponents are paying a Blood to block >>you. What you should care about is getting your action through >>unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways >>to do it? Yes. So will this card see action in any of my decks, as >>opposed to Shadow Play, Shroud of Night, Shroud of Absence and Blanket >>of Night? Nay, laddie. I wouldn't bury mah turtle in that mud puddle. > >I think it will see plenty of action. I've already gotten into a debate as to >whether it's good or great. It has a pseudostealth deterrent effect to go with >being the usual pay 1 blood for 1 stealth on any action Obt stealth. I think it's good to play as your _first_ stealth card. Then they burn a blood, then you play Shadow Play and your action gets through anyway. Yay! >>We also received: >> >>Abyssal Hunter >>Ally >>2 pool >>Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed. >>Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal >>Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase. >>Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated >>strike, even if that strike is prevented. >> >>I had high hopes for this boy. Was I disappointed? Well, despite my >>haiku, the jury is still out on this one. > >The jury being out is also how I feel. I'm sure I'll try playing the obvious >Shadow Twin Hunter deck. Not clear on what else it's good for. Splash for >rush defense, unblockability defense, just being an annoying ally with some >toolbox elements? It's, like, totally just _cool_. He seems mighty mean to me. If i saw a War Ghoul at the other end of a dark alley i'd think 'woah, ugly freak. lucky it won't fit down here'. if i saw Abyssal Hunter, however, i'd be needing new undies and running like a very scared running person. [ quoted text not captured ]

> actions to recruit like War Ghoul does. Two hunters could take out a > War Ghoul, one after the other, with an end result of three dead > allies. You would need three Hunters. War Ghoul prevents one per round. Chris.

On 20 Nov 2003 16:17:38 -0800, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) scrawled: >> Not specificallty Lasombra, but pretty much so. I'm always surprised >> when I see non-Lasombra BP decks that don't throw in a token Aaron Dugan >> or Cameron. Why Purge if you can't name the targets? > >While Aaron Duggan is undisputedly the most powerful Lasombra to walk >the face of this earth, he's not much good to Purge with. Has to be a >younger vamp. He's good to haul Ambrosio's fat arse out of torpor with >though. :) "If you control a ready Lasombra, you choose the vampires instead." Aaron doesn't do the Purge, some fatty does. Then, merely because you control Aaron, you get to choose the Purged Ones. Although maybe the Melbourne scene will lynch me for pointing that out, as i seem to recall you already have caused some havoc with BPs...and thus probably own quite a few BPs to abuse.... [ quoted text not captured ]

"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote > > > > Don't have the card in front of me. Was going from memory when I wrote > > the text. Can you really do the damage to a vamp that isn't ready? > > Zounds, man! > > Apparently not. I was going from your card text which I assumed to be > accurate. The actual text says "ready vampire" so he can't take the dmg > either. The only way round it is not to have any ready vamps :) Lasombra, all of us very much appreciate the efforts you have been making to archive these newsletters. Given mistakes like this though, do you think it would be reasonable to wait for an edited version before posting them on your site? Just a thought. Not intended as a black mark against you, Noodleboy. Simple mistake to make. In fact, I've been thinking of going over all of my old newsletters and editing them to reflect changes to the game (Majesty costing 1 blood etc). Cheers, WES

"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote > > Playing traps would indicate you've built a deck around him, which > means you'd probably like to keep him alive. And yeah, 2 pool is > cheap, 1 with Charisma is even cheaper. hence, his price is a "pro". Not necessarily. Pay 1 with Charisma, Harrass with the Abyssal Hunter, Trap. AH burns, Possess him back out or buy another. Treat them as disposable. If they burn, you're not paying for upkeep. > Apparently not. Damages vamps not minions. Must have misread it. > Problem with not having the card in front of you while you bag it. :) Yeah, that seemed to throw everyone off heheh. Cheers, WES

salem expounded: > >Does a Walk of Flame at close range qualify? ie. is it the strike itself > >or the range at which it was played? > > It's got an R, and is therefore Ranged. On the misquoted "ranged strike" it probably qualifies; ranged damage? > what i want to know is, other than, say, Dawn Op/Murder of Crows, what > other ranged envorinmental agg damage is there? Oh, Ghoul Retainer > with Flamer Thrower/Ivory Bow i guess. ok, there's probably a lot.... How about Dawn Op + Weather Control? Range hasn't been determined at that point... does it matter if you set range first (OBT THA FOR ;) or maneuver afterwards? (presumably not)

noodleboy expounded: > > I can't believe this. This vamp has an incredible special. She had no votes, > > so what? now you could have a motive to pack either cardinal benedictions or > > Regent on your deck, depending upon you go for the vote or combat angle > > She doesn't have an incredible special in my opinion. She has a > special that you'd maybe use twice in a game, that costs you 2 pool > each time you do [opportunity cost of playing an Ascendence included] I think "the opportunity cost of not playing Ascendence" is the correct way of saying what I think you meant to say... is that right someone (I'm a bi confused)? The opportunity cost of Ascendance includes 1 Library Card Slot and having to draw it. > and you could pretty easily duplicate with an Elder Library and > Chronicle of the Lost Tribe. Card Slots again. > Increased handsize is a crutch. Absolutely true. However it may be the crutch that makes your deck viable. It's also a crutch that will help a lot if you get a bad draw. The extra hand size immediately could get you your poolgain a turn earlier/before the M-Phase rather than after/before you tap your minions/... It's definitely a good special -though not really one to build around which could be a problem for such a large vamp.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:22:31 -0000, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled: >(I'm a bi confused)? heh. ;) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:46:23 -0500, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> scrawled: > >"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote >> >> Playing traps would indicate you've built a deck around him, which >> means you'd probably like to keep him alive. And yeah, 2 pool is >> cheap, 1 with Charisma is even cheaper. hence, his price is a "pro". > >Not necessarily. Pay 1 with Charisma, ...then take 1 damage in your untap phase before you get a chance to: >Harrass with the Abyssal Hunter, >Trap. AH burns, Possess him back out or buy another. Treat them as >disposable. If they burn, you're not paying for upkeep. You have to take the 1 untap phase damage at least once, unless you have no ready vampires, or get the Abyssal hunter killed in a block-combat or somesuch. why do people keep using magic-derived terms, here? Mill Decks, Upkeep...when will that other game's evil influence end? although, funnily enough, i was opening boosters and the pile i was putting all the wrappers on i called the ash heap, without even thinking about it.... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:21:20 -0000, Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled: >salem expounded: >> >Does a Walk of Flame at close range qualify? ie. is it the strike itself >> >or the range at which it was played? >> >> It's got an R, and is therefore Ranged. > >On the misquoted "ranged strike" it probably qualifies; ranged damage? from Casino Reed's text: "Casino inflicts +1 damage with ranged strikes (even at close range)." Text in parentheses has tended to be reminder text. So i take it that ranged damage counts, regardless of the actual range of the round. >> what i want to know is, other than, say, Dawn Op/Murder of Crows, what >> other ranged envorinmental agg damage is there? Oh, Ghoul Retainer >> with Flamer Thrower/Ivory Bow i guess. ok, there's probably a lot.... > >How about Dawn Op + Weather Control? Range hasn't been determined at >that point... does it matter if you set range first (OBT THA FOR ;) or >maneuver afterwards? (presumably not) Weather control isn't ranged damage. It has no R, and there is no such thing as range at that point in the round anyway..... :) [ quoted text not captured ]

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote > > > >Not necessarily. Pay 1 with Charisma, > > ...then take 1 damage in your untap phase before you get a chance to: Yes, I realize this. Maybe I didn't phrase that right. Even if you do take 1 damage (which as noted, can be applied to the ally himself) it is not such a huge cost to burn them the turn after they come out in a rush. Effectively the cost would be 1 pool and 1 blood. I think I can afford that cost most of the time. > why do people keep using magic-derived terms, here? Mill Decks, > Upkeep...when will that other game's evil influence end? I don't really have a lot of experience with Magic. Maybe five or six games total in my life. "Milling" is just a term I hear other people using for Slaughterhouse and its ilk. Upkeep is just a logical name for a cost of this sort, isn't it? They're just shorthand expressions... > although, funnily enough, i was opening boosters and the pile i was > putting all the wrappers on i called the ash heap, without even > thinking about it.... Not with a real fire I hope? :) Cheers, WES

"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:MPG.1a27f7772...@news.freeserve.com... > salem expounded: [re Abyssal Hunter's ranged aggravated damage disadvantage] > > what i want to know is, other than, say, Dawn Op/Murder of Crows, what > > other ranged envorinmental agg damage is there? Oh, Ghoul Retainer > > with Flamer Thrower/Ivory Bow i guess. ok, there's probably a lot.... > > How about Dawn Op + Weather Control? Range hasn't been determined at > that point... does it matter if you set range first (OBT THA FOR ;) or > maneuver afterwards? (presumably not) On the one hand it's not really ranged damage since as you say range is neither close nor short at that point, and on the other, Dawn Operation only affects damage done to *vampires*. :-) In general I think you're safe looking for the word "ranged" on the card or "R" on the amount of damage. LSJ? Josh home home on the range where the deer and the abyssal hunters play

"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:jeoqrvsfe1lj02mij...@4ax.com... > On 20 Nov 2003 19:54:44 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) scrawled: > > >>Tenebrous Form > >>Action Modifier > >>1 blood > >>[obt]: +1 stealth > >>[OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to > >>attempt to block. > >I think it will see plenty of action. I've already gotten into a debate as to > >whether it's good or great. It has a pseudostealth deterrent effect to go with > >being the usual pay 1 blood for 1 stealth on any action Obt stealth. > > I think it's good to play as your _first_ stealth card. Then they burn > a blood, then you play Shadow Play and your action gets through > anyway. Yay! Works just as well as your last stealth card if you still need it. Better as your first one if you're never going to get to play it if you play another first, yeah. But what I'm trying to say is, even if their block is going to fail after you add the Tenebrous Form stealth, they still have to burn the blood for attempting to block, because they are still attempting to block when you play the card. LSJ, confirm? Josh what's not to like about being able to get to +7 stealth instead of +6? or 5 without using ultrarares instead of 4? or benefiting from path of night unlike stone travel? ;-)

Wes expounded: > > "salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote > > > > > >Not necessarily. Pay 1 with Charisma, > > > > ...then take 1 damage in your untap phase before you get a chance to: > > Yes, I realize this. Maybe I didn't phrase that right. > > Even if you do take 1 damage (which as noted, can be applied to the ally > himself) it is not such a huge cost to burn them the turn after they IT HAS TO BE A READY VAMPIRE (that takes the dmg) That was another mistake arising form the mistaken text in the original post. (sorry for the shouting -hope everyone heard this time ;)

salem expounded: > On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:21:20 -0000, Timlagor > <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled: > > >salem expounded: > >> >Does a Walk of Flame at close range qualify? ie. is it the strike itself > >> >or the range at which it was played? > >> > >> It's got an R, and is therefore Ranged. > > > >On the misquoted "ranged strike" it probably qualifies; ranged damage? > > from Casino Reed's text: > "Casino inflicts +1 damage with ranged strikes (even at close range)." Didn't know that... > Text in parentheses has tended to be reminder text. So i take it that > ranged damage counts, regardless of the actual range of the round. note however that in this case the correct text is "ranged (aggravated) damage" rather than "ranged *strike*".

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > Or teaming up with some of those !nos that pack DOM ANI POT. > > And why would you do this? > > noodleboy More importantly, what are 'those' apparently-multiple !nos packing DOM ANI POT that are being fantasized about? Julio has that discipline spread, and that's it. Cailean and Tarbaby Jack both have dom ANI POT, for what little it's worth, and that's it for dominate-!Nos, even those without ANI POT added. -John Flournoy

Joshua Duffin expounded: > Works just as well as your last stealth card if you still need it. > Better as your first one if you're never going to get to play it if you > play another first, yeah. But what I'm trying to say is, even if their > block is going to fail after you add the Tenebrous Form stealth, they > still have to burn the blood for attempting to block, because they are > still attempting to block when you play the card. LSJ, confirm? The card implies to me that blockers can decide to stop trying to block when you play your TF and that in that case they don't have to burn a blood.

Joshua Duffin wrote: > Works just as well as your last stealth card if you still need it. > Better as your first one if you're never going to get to play it if you > play another first, yeah. But what I'm trying to say is, even if their > block is going to fail after you add the Tenebrous Form stealth, they > still have to burn the blood for attempting to block, because they are > still attempting to block when you play the card. LSJ, confirm? No. They don't burn a blood for attempting to block; they burn a blood to attempt to block. The would-be blocker (the only currently attempting to block) simply resigns his attempt once the TF is played if he doesn't want to pay the blood to make the attempt. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3FBE6389...@white-wolf.com... > Joshua Duffin wrote: > > Works just as well as your last stealth card if you still need it. > > Better as your first one if you're never going to get to play it if you > > play another first, yeah. But what I'm trying to say is, even if their > > block is going to fail after you add the Tenebrous Form stealth, they > > still have to burn the blood for attempting to block, because they are > > still attempting to block when you play the card. LSJ, confirm? > > No. > > They don't burn a blood for attempting to block; they burn a blood to > attempt to block. > > The would-be blocker (the only currently attempting to block) simply > resigns his attempt once the TF is played if he doesn't want to pay > the blood to make the attempt. You would think I would remember this from the Giotto Verducci/Mask of 1000 Faces question some time ago. Obviously my intuition has failed to be updated. :-) Josh to sleep, perchance "to" block

Personally, I'd love to see mid-caps (4-6 range) with OBT & DOM. Right now, the cheapest are 7 caps. In my opinion, that's rather pricy for 2 superior in-clan disciplines.

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:40:14 -0500, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: >Lasombra, all of us very much appreciate the efforts you have been >making to archive these newsletters. Given mistakes like this though, do >you think it would be reasonable to wait for an edited version before >posting them on your site? Just a thought. There is always the option for the author to mail me the correct version of the newsletter. I don't intend to archive un official newsletters. If you can't be bothered to check your facts, I don't need to bother to pay to archive. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com/ClanPages/

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03111...@posting.google.com>... > Tobias was a decent addition to a deck > with a PRE bolt on, but his ability to hang with Francisco, Marcus and > Ambrosio without looking the tosser didn't excuse his woeful lack of > POT, nor his virtually useless "special" [and I use the word all > wary-like]. did you miss the implied game text, target Tobias with your first cardinal benediction after you GtU to get him in one turn? Who uses pot is enough to run away from combat, and POT on a 7 cap isn't needed. out of clan PRE on a 7 cap that screams "VOTE WITH ME" is nothing to be sneazed at. So stop. > However, Team Lasombra's weak spot has always been our rather ordinary > collection of minions. With no-one below a 9 cap with all 3 in-clans > at superior, my personal hopes were high for this expansion. So, let's > take a gander at the latest lads and lassies to join our band of > smooth criminals: > > Sadly, we're followed by: > > Tabitha Fisk > 4 cap obt pot pro > Sabbat > > Unless we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra [and why the hell > anyone would bother has always been beyond me], this gal is about as > useful as testes on the padre. Shite artwork rounds off a thoroughly > ordinary package, which will probably see many a public toilet > wallpapered with Ms Fisk and her Shirley Temple bangs. > 1 out of 5. bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start. Lisette POT/pro Ilse POT/pro Henry T POT/pro Tabitha pot/pro looks like the core of a crypt to me. And why bother...? it's won tournements already with just Lisette and Ilse > Henri Lavenant Lasombra > 7 cap DOM OBT pot qui > Sabbat. Black Hand. > > Quietus. Yes, you heard me. QUIETUS. I would ask "why?" but I know > that's about as futile as trying to gobble my own chopper. Everything > else about this lad smacks of greatness. DOM. OBT. Hand membership. He > could have been a true contender. Let's face it, he still manages to > flush Tobias' head down the bog. But QUIETUS?! Put it away, frenchie. > 3.5 out of 5. a SECOND 7 - cap LASOMBRA with DOM/OBT when two expansions ago we didn't even have a 7 cap. There are now 3 vamps with this discipline combo and capacity Toss in Gratiano to govern them out, and you've got quite the bleed deck going. Alternativly you can just target them with Cardinal Bene and have 12 table votes. And the qui/DOM is nice with Thetmes. If you want to work in that angle.

"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote > > There is always the option for the author to mail me the correct > version of the newsletter. Cool. If I ever get around to editing old material, I will send them on to you. I should probably also include the answers/winners to my recent quizzes, for posterity. > I don't intend to archive un official newsletters. What is the difference ultimately between the official and unofficial newsletters though? All it would really require to be "deputized" is for someone to email... Peter Bakija I think (?) asking if they can become the new editor. If Noodleboy were to do so now ex post facto, would that be enough to make this particular newsletter official? It's ok though. I don't mean to criticize your efforts. I'm very impressed by the level of support you provide this game already. Thank you for not quitting. > If you can't be bothered to check your facts, I don't need to bother > to pay to archive. Fair enough. I should have a passable newsletter for the December Followers of Set. (Wow! The Lasombra haven't had an official newsletter since June 1999. There's so much to write about for this clan too... Maybe I'll switch my clan focus again if Noodleboy doesn't want to be officialized :) Cheers, WES

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 19:39:55 -0500, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: >All it would really require to be "deputized" is for someone to email... >Peter Bakija I think (?) asking if they can become the new editor. If >Noodleboy were to do so now ex post facto, would that be enough to make this >particular newsletter official? No. He would also have to fix the incorrect card text. I have no interest in paying to archive incorrect information. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com/geography.htm

orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) wrote: > > bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp > to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin > of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start. > > Lisette POT/pro > Ilse POT/pro > Henry T POT/pro > Tabitha pot/pro > One could also consider: Soldat POT PRO Quite big as he is a 7-cap, but he shares Dominate with Lisette, so a few Deflections/Conditionings could be added. Cameron and, say, Marciana Giovanni could round the crypt. Hmmm... -Antero

> I think "the opportunity cost of not playing Ascendence" is the correct > way of saying what I think you meant to say... is that right someone > (I'm a bi confused)? The opportunity cost of Ascendance includes 1 > Library Card Slot and having to draw it. This is true, yes. The payoff is that you gain a pool. > It's definitely a good special -though not really one to build around > which could be a problem for such a large vamp. Indeed. Hence the 1 out of 5 and accusations of goat blowing. :) noodleboy

> Aaron doesn't do the Purge, some fatty does. Then, merely because you > control Aaron, you get to choose the Purged Ones. Ah yes. I misunderstood and though we were talking about Aaron actually doing the purging, rather than standing over Stani's shoulder, pointing and syaing "Hmmm...that one!" Apols for that. > Although maybe the Melbourne scene will lynch me for pointing that > out, as i seem to recall you already have caused some havoc with > BPs...and thus probably own quite a few BPs to abuse.... Indeed. Won the Adelaide qualifier with a BP deck. But i did that straight lasombra style. Don't worry - they'll lynch me for playing it before they lynch anyone else for giving me tips on how to play it better. :) noodleboy

> did you miss the implied game text, target Tobias with your first > cardinal benediction after you GtU to get him in one turn? "implied game text"? What? Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"? > Who uses pot is enough to run away from combat, and POT on a 7 cap isn't > needed. You're not making sense. However, I would say POT is needed on a Lasombra far more than PRE is. >out of clan PRE on a 7 cap that screams "VOTE WITH ME" is > nothing to be sneazed at. So stop. Oh, I sneeze. How I sneeze. Watch me now. AAACHOOOOOO!!! > bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp > to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin > of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start. > Lisette POT/pro > Ilse POT/pro > Henry T POT/pro > Tabitha pot/pro More than these three vamps have it. You're forgetting Karsh, Torvus, Jalan, Soldat, etc. You even forgot Francisco, king of the lasombra POT/pro squad. But take a deep breath and read what I wrote. "Unless we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra....". None of these vampires are Lasombra except Lisette. I'm talking about Ms Fisk from a lasombra viewpoint here, being that this is a lasombra newsletter and all [albeit an unofficial one] > looks like the core of a crypt to me. And why bother...? it's won > tournements already with just Lisette and Ilse If you're going to POT/PRO combat, you can do it much better with Gangrel and !Gangrel. Why you would bother to bolt on PRO to a lasombra deck is still beyond me, despite your assertations. Why would you do it? For the DOM? > a SECOND 7 - cap LASOMBRA with DOM/OBT when two expansions ago we > didn't even have a 7 cap. Irrelevant. > There are now 3 vamps with this discipline > combo and capacity Toss in Gratiano to govern them out, and you've > got quite the bleed deck going. Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly? > Alternativly you can just target them with Cardinal Bene and have 12 table votes. Again with the CBs. I'm not disputing the fact that he's a 7 pointer. I'm saying the inclusion of a qui symbol in his discipline spread is a waste of ink, and that the simple process of turning his pot symbol 45 degrees to make it POT would have served Lasombra decks far, far better. > And the qui/DOM is nice with Thetmes. If you want to work in that angle. Uh huh. I can see how easily Henri would fit into a Thetmes deck. Square Peg + Round Hole = GG noodleboy

"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:kbhtrvc0ou9akj6kt...@4ax.com... > On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 19:39:55 -0500, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> > wrote: > > >All it would really require to be "deputized" is for someone to email... > >Peter Bakija I think (?) asking if they can become the new editor. If > >Noodleboy were to do so now ex post facto, would that be enough to make this > >particular newsletter official? > > No. > > He would also have to fix the incorrect card text. > > I have no interest in paying to archive incorrect information. Reasonable enough, but surely there must be a whole bunch of older clan newsletters that now incorporate incorrect information due to card text changes over the years? After a while, most clan newsletters are historical documents in a sense, in that they're based on both a particular metagame in time and place and a particular set of card texts that aren't necessarily static over the years. This is just kind of a random comment, though, really, since it's very true that even taking the above into account, there's no need to go and accept card texts that are incorrect from the very start. :-) Josh needs to move up to at least pseudo-random comments

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > did you miss the implied game text, target Tobias with your first > > cardinal benediction after you GtU to get him in one turn? > > "implied game text"? What? Some vamps by the nature of their disciplines and capacities seem to be made for specific purposes... Koko's is "kill, kill, kill." Sandra White's is "eat something" > Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's > name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"? I'll go slow. He has 7 points of disciplines, on a 7 cap vampire. In addition he has a special that is cornercase, but not unusable... need one vote to get your first Cardinal benediction passed? Tap to gain a bishop. Seems simple enough to me, he's undercosted with the special (by a .5 point, because it's cornercase.) He is a large enough, untitled lasombra to be targeted by a Cardinal Benediction. (The first Lasombra this applied to.) In addition, in a clan that votes quite a bit (The other 6 Sabbat Vamps above 6cap have titles) he gets PRE (like two of them, and several !Bru who have obt) which is (I've been given to understand) good for vote decks. Having observed these things about him, I said (upon seeing him) Ah! LSJ has given me a new vampire who is slightly under costed, who works well in vote decks and has a special that has some marginal ability in the same. Hence implied game text, "vote with me".... > > Who uses pot is enough to run away from combat, and POT on a 7 cap isn't > > needed. > > You're not making sense. In a voted deck with OBT stealth, like he works in, you MIGHT use pot to toss agate and run away to long. pot is enough for that purpose. Or you might use the OBT card that does the same damn thing. > However, I would say POT is needed on a Lasombra far more than PRE is. see above about him being a votey vampire in a votey clan. In such a situation, the Lasombra have been moved away from POT, it's their 3rd discipline, which makes sense. They're the only clan with OBT, so they get that first. DOM is good, and they've got lots of big vamps, so that's second. And lots of people have pot in clan already. So that's third. Further, POT and OBT don't synergize as well as DOM and OBT do. OBT combat doesn't work well (in most circumstances) with POT combat. And Stealth isn't needed in a deck that likes to fight. So PRE seems to make a lot of sense to me. > >out of clan PRE on a 7 cap that screams "VOTE WITH ME" is > > nothing to be sneazed at. So stop. > > Oh, I sneeze. How I sneeze. Watch me now. > > AAACHOOOOOO!!! Bless you. > > bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp > > to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin > > of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start. > > Lisette POT/pro > > Ilse POT/pro > > Henry T POT/pro > > Tabitha pot/pro > > More than these three vamps have it. You're forgetting Karsh, Torvus, > Jalan, Soldat, etc. You even forgot Francisco, king of the lasombra > POT/pro squad. But take a deep breath and read what I wrote. "Unless > we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra....". None of these vampires > are Lasombra except Lisette. I'm talking about Ms Fisk from a lasombra > viewpoint here, being that this is a lasombra newsletter and all > [albeit an unofficial one] size matters in a combat deck that isn't a multi rush. Right? So another small vamp helps this deck. Another lasombra means that some clan cards can be used in it. I didn't forget Polonia, but I don't use him in the deck, a 10 cap is to big. For the same reason I don't use any of the new or old gangrel with POT/PRO. They cost to much. As for talking about the lasombra from the viewpoint of the lasombra, you seem a bit uninformed about the current uses of the clan. And all you do is complain about the out of clans. A good use of newsletters is to exult in new vampires. It's not like these guys are under costed. How about looking for ways to use their disciplines instead of whining that POT isn't on all of them. > > looks like the core of a crypt to me. And why bother...? it's won > > tournements already with just Lisette and Ilse > > If you're going to POT/PRO combat, you can do it much better with > Gangrel and !Gangrel. Why you would bother to bolt on PRO to a > lasombra deck is still beyond me, despite your assertations. Why would > you do it? For the DOM? see above about not bolting on anthing. the vamps already exist in a size useable in a combat deck. > > a SECOND 7 - cap LASOMBRA with DOM/OBT when two expansions ago we > > didn't even have a 7 cap. > > Irrelevant. Or maybe this was a vampire made to help reinforce the main uses of the clan, as seen at that time. As such the first Vamp of this size was made into a voter. > > There are now 3 vamps with this discipline > > combo and capacity Toss in Gratiano to govern them out, and you've > > got quite the bleed deck going. > > Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly? And POT would help you in this deck how exactly? I'll answer that. It wouldn't because POT instead of pot/qui would be the only one with superior, and there would be one without it at all. > > Alternativly you can just target them with Cardinal Bene and have 12 table votes. > > Again with the CBs. I'm not disputing the fact that he's a 7 pointer. > I'm saying the inclusion of a qui symbol in his discipline spread is a > waste of ink, and that the simple process of turning his pot symbol 45 > degrees to make it POT would have served Lasombra decks far, far > better. Give me an example of this. POT is only on 9 HUGE vamps (6,6,9,9,9,10,10,10,10) and one of those is Adv. Marcus who's utter jank. adding pot gets you 6 more vamps plus the new ones. How do you use this miserable collection of POT to some effect? > > And the qui/DOM is nice with Thetmes. If you want to work in that angle. > > Uh huh. I can see how easily Henri would fit into a Thetmes deck. > > Square Peg + Round Hole = GG or DOM/qui/BH == interesting. It's being tossed around POB as a possiable deck type. Innovation = fun. Try it. now to go make an OBT/qui combat deck. Sounds like fun. Cameron

"Cameron" <orcao...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a1e26d99.03112...@posting.google.com... > nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's > > name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"? > > I'll go slow. > > He has 7 points of disciplines, on a 7 cap vampire. In addition he > has a special that is cornercase, but not unusable... need one vote to > get your first Cardinal benediction passed? Tap to gain a bishop. > Seems simple enough to me, he's undercosted with the special (by a .5 > point, because it's cornercase.) To nitpick, according to the current standard points scheme, he's overcosted by 0.5 point or so. (I still think he's a very strong vampire, because he has 6 points of disciplines that are extremely useful together (DOM OBT PRE), where others (say, Dominique, with AUS FOR ani dom vic) have much less synergy.) point scheme: 1-4 capacity = 1 less point than capacity 5-6 capacity = points equal to capacity 7-8 capacity = 1 point more than capacity 9-10 capacity = 2 points more than capacity 11 capacity = probably 2-3 points more than capacity (hardly any of these vampires have been created by the current designers) Obviously the actual printed vampires we get - even from the current design team - don't always match this exactly. Despite what obsessive people like me might prefer, the point values are only guidelines and can be overridden by "a priori" balance issues (eg DOM OBF might result in a vampire having less points than it "should" where QUI OBF might not). :-) Josh compulsory obsession (for men?)

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > did you miss the implied game text, target Tobias with your first > > cardinal benediction after you GtU to get him in one turn? > > "implied game text"? What? > > Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's > name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"? > > > Who uses pot is enough to run away from combat, and POT on a 7 cap isn't > > needed. > > You're not making sense. > > However, I would say POT is needed on a Lasombra far more than PRE is. Not really, If you want POT/DOM try the Giovanni. PRE with Lasombra is just incredibly strong given the "presence" of a number of voters in the clan. > >out of clan PRE on a 7 cap that screams "VOTE WITH ME" is > > nothing to be sneazed at. So stop. > > Oh, I sneeze. How I sneeze. Watch me now. > > AAACHOOOOOO!!! Bless you. > > bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp > > to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin > > of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start. > > Lisette POT/pro > > Ilse POT/pro > > Henry T POT/pro > > Tabitha pot/pro > > More than these three vamps have it. You're forgetting Karsh, Torvus, > Jalan, Soldat, etc. You even forgot Francisco, king of the lasombra > POT/pro squad. But take a deep breath and read what I wrote. "Unless > we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra....". None of these vampires > are Lasombra except Lisette. I'm talking about Ms Fisk from a lasombra > viewpoint here, being that this is a lasombra newsletter and all > [albeit an unofficial one] I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually it sounds like a really good deck. > > looks like the core of a crypt to me. And why bother...? it's won > > tournements already with just Lisette and Ilse > > If you're going to POT/PRO combat, you can do it much better with > Gangrel and !Gangrel. Why you would bother to bolt on PRO to a > lasombra deck is still beyond me, despite your assertations. Why would > you do it? For the DOM? DOM=Graverobbing=Free MinionTM, which last time I checked was never a bad thing (unless you are the former owner of said Free MinionTM). > > a SECOND 7 - cap LASOMBRA with DOM/OBT when two expansions ago we > > didn't even have a 7 cap. > > Irrelevant. You know 7 is a lucky number > > There are now 3 vamps with this discipline > > combo and capacity Toss in Gratiano to govern them out, and you've > > got quite the bleed deck going. > > Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly? Wait for the grand finale! > > Alternativly you can just target them with Cardinal Bene and have 12 table votes. > > Again with the CBs. I'm not disputing the fact that he's a 7 pointer. > I'm saying the inclusion of a qui symbol in his discipline spread is a > waste of ink, and that the simple process of turning his pot symbol 45 > degrees to make it POT would have served Lasombra decks far, far > better. > > > And the qui/DOM is nice with Thetmes. If you want to work in that angle. > > Uh huh. I can see how easily Henri would fit into a Thetmes deck. > > Square Peg + Round Hole = GG And the grand finale! Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of Free MinionsTM. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bptl9g$1s5j55$1...@ID-121616.news.uni-berlin.de>... [ quoted text not captured ] Crap... comparing him to a g1 Prince... oh well. Still a nice group of disciplines, and I can't see giving him 4 superiors on a 7. > Josh > > compulsory obsession > (for men?) mmm... smells like keyboarding.

On 24 Nov 2003 16:11:21 -0800, orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] Jessica. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's > > name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"? > > I'll go slow. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. > He has 7 points of disciplines, on a 7 cap vampire. In addition he > has a special that is cornercase, but not unusable... need one vote to > get your first Cardinal benediction passed? Tap to gain a bishop. > Seems simple enough to me, he's undercosted with the special (by a .5 > point, because it's cornercase.) Indeed. So, in this hypothetical PRE/OBT vote deck we're playing with, which untitled 5+ vampire are you going to make a bishop? Jacko? Give me a break. "Cornercase" is a gentle way of saying "You will use this ability maybe once in your entire VTES life." "Cornercase" is a gentle way of saying "shite". Carbomb is "cornercase". Liberty Club Intrigue is "cornercase". "Cornercase" can gobble my chopper. > Having observed these things about him, I said (upon seeing him) Ah! > LSJ has given me a new vampire who is slightly under costed, who works > well in vote decks and has a special that has some marginal ability in > the same. Hence implied game text, "vote with me".... Indeed. Whereas I said "Aha! LSJ has given me another votey Lasombra. Yet again the third Lasombra IN CLAN DISCIPLINE is ignored in favour of an ooc bolt-on." You wanted an OBT/PRE 7 pointer for your votey deck? You already had Jessica. You've had her for years. The Lasombra PRE vote deck has been a viable strategy since Sabbat came out, and has been done many times by many folks, myself included [it did very well]. Meanwhile a strategy that would seem bleedingly obvious to most for a clan that has Potence, ie POT Combat with OBT support, remains unachievable because we simply don't have the vamps. > In a voted deck with OBT stealth, like he works in, you MIGHT use pot > to toss agate and run away to long. pot is enough for that purpose. > Or you might use the OBT card that does the same damn thing. There. Now you're articulating properly. There are several Obten cards that do the "same damn thing" as a gate [Darkness within, Shadow Step], ie, put you at long range, while still freeing you up for an SCE. I'd recommend you MIGHT want to put those in your votey deck instead of POT strikes. Additionally, by your own rationale if you're only using pot to "run away", and you can run away better with Obten, why give Tobias pot at all? > see above about him being a votey vampire in a votey clan. In such a > situation, the Lasombra have been moved away from POT, it's their 3rd > discipline, which makes sense. "Moved away"? Implying they were ever there? Got news for you. They weren't. My point is that it makes *very little* sense. Potence is their in clan discipline, not Presence. Yet the options made available by having Pot in clan are being repeatedly ignored in favour of other, out of clan discipline strategies, which continues to baffle and frustrate me. Why create a vampire like Talley the Hound? He's the foundation of a fantastic OBT/POT deck. Where is his back-up? He has none under 9 points. This makes sense to you? > They're the only clan with OBT, so > they get that first. DOM is good, and they've got lots of big vamps, > so that's second. And lots of people have pot in clan already. So > that's third. Further, POT and OBT don't synergize as well as DOM and > OBT do. OBT combat doesn't work well (in most circumstances) with POT > combat. Now you're just being a tool. Permanent additional strikes and presses. The ability to set range - a power granted by only two other cards in the ENTIRE GAME. The ability to recoup blood lost in combat in addition to Taste of Vitae. Let's not even mention their unsoakable torpor strike. How does this equate to "not working well"? >And Stealth isn't needed in a deck that likes to fight. So > PRE seems to make a lot of sense to me. It makes sense if the strategies made available by the Clan's natural discipline spread have been adequately explored. I submit that they have not, and that the clan's entire third discipline, ie, Potence, is being repeatedly ignored by the design team. For the Derek Ray's of the world [smile] allow me to present some statistical, factual evidence: Of the 8 Lasombra vampires released over the last three expansions, we find the following spread of Potence: Tobias - 7 cap. pot Marcus Vitel ADV - 10 cap. POT Lucita ADV - 8 cap. pot Banjoko - 5 cap. pot Henri Lavenant - 7 cap. pot Hester Reed - 3 cap. pot Nahir - 10 cap. POT Tabitha Fisk - 4 cap. pot Of the 8, only two have POT, and BOTH of those are 10 caps. Both of them also blow goats. Additionally, of the 8, two of these vampires have an out of clan discipline at superior level, whilst their in-clan Potence remains at inferior [Lucita - FOR, Tobias - PRE]. Prior to the release of the Camarilla expansion [and after, sadly], only two Lasombra below a capacity of NINE had POT, and one of those [Lisette] has no Obtenebration whatsoever. Since the viability of "Lasombra fatty multi rush" is tenuous, given the small numbers of Lasombra with both POT and for/FOR [2 - Ambrosio and Marcus ADV, and rushers, they ain't] I submit that an entire third of the Lasombra discipline spread has been effectively ignored since the Clan was introduced to the game. This makes sense how? > Bless you. Why, thank you. :) > size matters in a combat deck that isn't a multi rush. Right? So > another small vamp helps this deck. Another lasombra means that some > clan cards can be used in it. Indeed. And if we had an even remotely plausible spread of POT mid pointers to front the offensive with the aid of pot weenies such as Hester and Tabitha, this combat deck might be a reality. However, since we do not, it IS NOT, and therefore your point is moot. If Tabitha had POT,obt instead of pot, obt and f*cking pro, we might be in a position to consider a Lasombra pot combat deck. However, we are repeatedly handed weenies with next to useless out of clan ad ons [Ramiro anyone?] whilst our third in clan discipline is REPEATEDLY ignored in the mid-point range. > As for talking about the lasombra from the viewpoint of the lasombra, > you seem a bit uninformed about the current uses of the clan. Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn fool. > And all you do is complain about the out of clans. I suggest you re-read my original post. I complain about a great deal, not merely out-of-clans. :) I do give some praise as well. However, the discipline spread of Clan Lasombra as a whole, as stated in my original post, is in my considered opinion, backed by some factual evidence, Clan Lasombra's weakest point. Refute this statement, if you can. Find me another Clan that has had any of it's in Clan disciplines so thoroughly ignored as Potence has been in Clan Lasombra. If you can. > A good use of newsletters > is to exult in new vampires. It's not like these guys are under > costed. How about looking for ways to use their disciplines instead > of whining that POT isn't on all of them. "Whining"? You're being foolish again. As for exaltation, I will exalt only those vampires worthy of it. Banjoko is my man. Him, I exalt. The rest? Nay, not worthy of my praise are they, save perhaps for Henri, who might be fit to bag my groceries on occasion, when he's not flushing Tobias' head down the toilet. > see above about not bolting on anthing. the vamps already exist in a > size useable in a combat deck. In this endeavour, I wish you luck. Rest assured that you will need it. It certainly won't be a Lasombra deck that you're flying. > Or maybe this was a vampire made to help reinforce the main uses of > the clan, as seen at that time. As such the first Vamp of this size > was made into a voter. As stated above, this strategy needed no reinforcement in my opinion. Particularly when other strategies based upon in clan disciplines are being repeatedly ignored. Additionally, I would submit that the "main use" of Clan Lasombra has been, and will always be, Stealth/Bleed. Not that this is all they can do, not by a long shot. But it is certainly what they excel at. > > Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly? > > And POT would help you in this deck how exactly? I'll answer that. > It wouldn't because POT instead of pot/qui would be the only one with > superior, and there would be one without it at all. What? I think you're going to have to slow it down further, chief. A sentence that makes sense would be nice. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. > Give me an example of this. POT is only on 9 HUGE vamps > (6,6,9,9,9,10,10,10,10) and one of those is Adv. Marcus who's utter > jank. adding pot gets you 6 more vamps plus the new ones. How do you > use this miserable collection of POT to some effect? This is EXACTLY my f*cking point!! We DON'T HAVE a mid-point spread of vampires with POT. We NEED THEM to explore Pot combat as a strategy. Give Henri POT, team him up with Talley and we start to have a team. Yet instead, we get given a useless [and yes, i will go on record now and say that the inclusion of qui on a Lasombra is akin to bringing a pair of skis with you on a trek into the frickin' Sahara] out of clan add-on. Why? So Henri can go hang out with THETMES?! Uh-huh. Maybe he can ask the Fairy Godmother and Santa Claus along for the ride? > or DOM/qui/BH == interesting. It's being tossed around POB as a > possiable deck type. Innovation = fun. Try it. Gobbling my chopper = fun. Try it. No teeth please. n

On 24 Nov 2003 19:49:24 -0800, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) scrawled: [snip] I agree. i tried building a Lasombra pot deck (the Lasombra Hate Everyone, based off the Noferatu Hate You deck by...Peter Bakija?) But it needed many talleys, which screwed my crypt draws. other vamps just didn't cut it. Basically, the deck didn't work because there aren't enough little 'uns with pot/POT. Might try to rebuild it now that BH has sprinkled a few more littlies in there... >Now you're just being a tool. Permanent additional strikes and >presses. The ability to set range - a power granted by only two other >cards in the ENTIRE GAME. actually, there's quite a list: Shadow Step (the card you are talking about above) Sniper Rifle Storm Sewers Gang Tactics High Ground Neutral Guard (basic obeah level) Cailean i think there's a few more but i can't recall them off the top of my head...and i don't know how to do the regexp thing in the Vamp program. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

> > However, I would say POT is needed on a Lasombra far more than PRE is. > > Not really, If you want POT/DOM try the Giovanni. I don't want POT/DOM. I want POT/OBT. I want the Lasombra to be able to fight as well, if not better than the Gios. This isn't an odd request considering they both have Potence in clan, and the Lasombra also have another in clan discipline with great combat utility. This is not an outrageous request. To ask for more than two vamps with a superior IN CLAN discipline below NINE CAPACITY should not be considered outlandish by any stretch of the imagination. > PRE with Lasombra > is just incredibly strong given the "presence" of a number of voters > in the clan. It is strong. The point is, it already WAS strong before Tobias flashed his ugly mug at us. He does not fill a hole. Lasombra PRE/OBT vote was already a viable and successful strategy. Lasombra POT combat is non-existent. Did we need a mid-cap Lasombra with PRE? No, I think not. Not as much as we need another POT/OBT/obt Lasombra to back the line of Talley and . . . oh wait, there AREN'T any others. > Bless you. Thank you. :) > I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge > followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually > it sounds like a really good deck. I presume you're talking a Grapple and not a Thoughts betrayed. But tell me - how are you going to get your Graverobbing off without Obten for stealth? Because Lisette, she ain't got none. Or are you really going build a deck around stealth with obten when your starting quarterback doesn't even have the discipline at inferior? > DOM=Graverobbing=Free MinionTM, which last time I checked was never a > bad thing (unless you are the former owner of said Free MinionTM). Again, good luck pulling that one off without OBT. Or are you going to play other Lasombra with OBT and try to bolt PRO and POT onto them so they don't choke like bitches in combat? No? So who else is going to back your line? Francisco and Lisette do not a deck make. And the original poster didn't even rate Francisco worthy of a mention. > Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's > Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific > S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of > Free MinionsTM. Indeed. Aside from the fact that you can do this without little Henri's help anyway, again, you're coming up short on stealth. Are you going to bolt OBT onto Thetmes, or are you going to choke on cards he can't use in case he's lucky enough to poke someone into torpor? Are you going to give Henri celerity so he can fight worth a beggar's cuss, or is he going to die like a bitch the first time someone looks at him cockeyed? Maybe we can throw in Gratiano and play obf instead? How exactly does this marvellous Thetmes/Henri dreamteam combo deck work? No grand finale do I see. Smoke and mirrors and that is all. noodleboy

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... snip cornercase... we'll have to disagree about its usefulness, cause I've found it useful. Not strong, but useful. > > Having observed these things about him, I said (upon seeing him) Ah! > > LSJ has given me a new vampire who is slightly under costed, who works > > well in vote decks and has a special that has some marginal ability in > > the same. Hence implied game text, "vote with me".... > > Indeed. Whereas I said "Aha! LSJ has given me another votey Lasombra. > Yet again the third Lasombra IN CLAN DISCIPLINE is ignored in favour > of an ooc bolt-on." > > You wanted an OBT/PRE 7 pointer for your votey deck? You already had > Jessica. You've had her for years. The Lasombra PRE vote deck has been > a viable strategy since Sabbat came out, and has been done many times > by many folks, myself included [it did very well]. Meanwhile a > strategy that would seem bleedingly obvious to most for a clan that > has Potence, ie POT Combat with OBT support, remains unachievable > because we simply don't have the vamps. What kind of POT/OBT deck is this. I can think of ONLY ONE which has any type of basis in reality, Torn/FoD and Shadow Strike. This doesn't work with Darkness Within, combat ends to quickly for that card to be useful. It can work with Black Meta, but that's it. You're better off using DOM/OBT TB/DW/SStrikes The other, Black Meta for strikes at close loses the only OBT close range strike cards under IG. So joy. > There are several Obten cards that do the "same damn thing" as a gate > [Darkness within, Shadow Step], ie, put you at long range, while still > freeing you up for an SCE. I'd recommend you MIGHT want to put those > in your votey deck instead of POT strikes. > > Additionally, by your own rationale if you're only using pot to "run > away", and you can run away better with Obten, why give Tobias pot at > all? I'm not using pot at all. OBT combat is much better as a preventative measure. (S:CE and Entombment) Tobias has pot b/c it's his 3rd in clan. Like Ezekiel has obf, or Sela has cel. > > see above about him being a votey vampire in a votey clan. In such a > > situation, the Lasombra have been moved away from POT, it's their 3rd > > discipline, which makes sense. > > "Moved away"? Implying they were ever there? Got news for you. They > weren't. > > My point is that it makes *very little* sense. Potence is their in > clan discipline, not Presence. Yet the options made available by > having Pot in clan are being repeatedly ignored in favour of other, > out of clan discipline strategies, which continues to baffle and > frustrate me. Why create a vampire like Talley the Hound? He's the > foundation of a fantastic OBT/POT deck. Where is his back-up? He has > none under 9 points. > > This makes sense to you? Yes. Personally if I were on the design team I'd keep the 2-3 lasombra like they are. IF OBT/POT is as viable as you make it out to be (and I see way to much duplication of effort and contraryness for that to be the case) then I'd roll it out in G4, if we ever get there, using the weenies with obt/pot in g3 as the basis. > > They're the only clan with OBT, so > > they get that first. DOM is good, and they've got lots of big vamps, > > so that's second. And lots of people have pot in clan already. So > > that's third. Further, POT and OBT don't synergize as well as DOM and > > OBT do. OBT combat doesn't work well (in most circumstances) with POT > > combat. > > Now you're just being a tool. Permanent additional strikes and > presses. The ability to set range - a power granted by only two other > cards in the ENTIRE GAME. The ability to recoup blood lost in combat > in addition to Taste of Vitae. Let's not even mention their unsoakable > torpor strike. How does this equate to "not working well"? OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the range that's wrong for your deck) Darkness W/in recoups its cost after a massive POT strike sends a vamp to torpor... way to waste a card slot. There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so can Graverobbing, Amaranth.... [ quoted text not captured ] I'd hazard a guess, that OBT was chosen over POT because there are 5 other clans with POT in the game, one and a half (EuroBru) that have POT/DOM and enough weenies have pot. Just like enough have dom, so Tabitha doesn't get any. The Lasombra were moved towards DOM/OBT, with pot as a side discipline, and one that wasn't expected to be used. It hasn't been, anything the Lasombra would do with POT, the Brujah can do better. Having no !Clan also limits the diversity available. > > Bless you. > > Why, thank you. :) > > > size matters in a combat deck that isn't a multi rush. Right? So > > another small vamp helps this deck. Another lasombra means that some > > clan cards can be used in it. > > Indeed. And if we had an even remotely plausible spread of POT mid > pointers to front the offensive with the aid of pot weenies such as > Hester and Tabitha, this combat deck might be a reality. However, > since we do not, it IS NOT, and therefore your point is moot. If > Tabitha had POT,obt instead of pot, obt and f*cking pro, we might be > in a position to consider a Lasombra pot combat deck. However, we are > repeatedly handed weenies with next to useless out of clan ad ons > [Ramiro anyone?] whilst our third in clan discipline is REPEATEDLY > ignored in the mid-point range. again, probably on purpose, b/c to many weenies with pot is a bad thing, like to many weenies with dom, pre, or any other damn discipline. As for a POT/obt Tabitha, there hasn't been a 4cap with POT made since Sabbat that doesn't have a huge drawback (hi Chas), probably to keep Peter Bakija from having a heart attack. I don't expect to see anymore until G4, if then. > > As for talking about the lasombra from the viewpoint of the lasombra, > > you seem a bit uninformed about the current uses of the clan. > > Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn > fool. sorry no wink function. > > And all you do is complain about the out of clans. > > I suggest you re-read my original post. I complain about a great deal, > not merely out-of-clans. :) I do give some praise as well. However, > the discipline spread of Clan Lasombra as a whole, as stated in my > original post, is in my considered opinion, backed by some factual > evidence, Clan Lasombra's weakest point. > > Refute this statement, if you can. Find me another Clan that has had > any of it's in Clan disciplines so thoroughly ignored as Potence has > been in Clan Lasombra. If you can. FOR in the !Ventrue and Ravnos, lots of inferior, little superior till high caps. Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat. The Cam clans less so, because there are two sets of them, but everyone has less of something, and similiar clans have different specialties. > > A good use of newsletters > > is to exult in new vampires. It's not like these guys are under > > costed. How about looking for ways to use their disciplines instead > > of whining that POT isn't on all of them. > > "Whining"? You're being foolish again. As for exaltation, I will exalt > only those vampires worthy of it. Banjoko is my man. Him, I exalt. The > rest? Nay, not worthy of my praise are they, save perhaps for Henri, > who might be fit to bag my groceries on occasion, when he's not > flushing Tobias' head down the toilet. because they don't have POT. And that's the only standard you use to judge vampires? > > see above about not bolting on anthing. the vamps already exist in a > > size useable in a combat deck. > > In this endeavour, I wish you luck. Rest assured that you will need > it. It certainly won't be a Lasombra deck that you're flying. perfectly possiable to make a POT/pro storyline legal Lasombra deck now. This arguement is like saying using Vitel/Anne/Arika for the obf isn't a Ventrue deck. It is, it just takes advantage of an out of clan already on several of the vampires. > > Or maybe this was a vampire made to help reinforce the main uses of > > the clan, as seen at that time. As such the first Vamp of this size > > was made into a voter. > > As stated above, this strategy needed no reinforcement in my opinion. > Particularly when other strategies based upon in clan disciplines are > being repeatedly ignored. Additionally, I would submit that the "main > use" of Clan Lasombra has been, and will always be, Stealth/Bleed. Not > that this is all they can do, not by a long shot. But it is certainly > what they excel at. I'd say vote, but hey. > > > Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly? > > > > And POT would help you in this deck how exactly? I'll answer that. > > It wouldn't because POT instead of pot/qui would be the only one with > > superior, and there would be one without it at all. > > What? I think you're going to have to slow it down further, chief. A > sentence that makes sense would be nice. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. you say that qui is of no use in a deck that is primarily DOM/OBT bleed... the primary use of the Lasombra, right? How does POT help that deck work. How does pot help that deck work. How does that deck need anything but DOM and OBT to function. You made a strawman to attack (qui doesn't help you bleed, except that it does now with Deed the Hearts Desire) I'm pointing out that POT does not either (and even less than qui.) > > Give me an example of this. POT is only on 9 HUGE vamps > > (6,6,9,9,9,10,10,10,10) and one of those is Adv. Marcus who's utter > > jank. adding pot gets you 6 more vamps plus the new ones. How do you > > use this miserable collection of POT to some effect? > > This is EXACTLY my f*cking point!! Ok, we agree we don't have POT in this clan on small vampires. Pretend we do and give me a deck that would use it with OBT to good effect. We don't need these vampires to explore a strategy... it doesn't exist AFAIS. I remain open to being wrong about this. Show me the cool combo of cards that makes this a viable and useful deck and I'll be happy to complain about the lack of OBT/POT right along with you. Until then i'll remain happy with the clan the way it is. > Yet instead, we get given a > useless [and yes, i will go on record now and say that the inclusion > of qui on a Lasombra is akin to bringing a pair of skis with you on a > trek into the frickin' Sahara] out of clan add-on. > > Why? So Henri can go hang out with THETMES?! Uh-huh. Maybe he can ask > the Fairy Godmother and Santa Claus along for the ride? What's their Discipline Spread... SC has ANI/AUS, and FGm has THA... right? DOM/qui/OBT is three prevent people from blocking disciplines. with Seduction/DeedTHD/BoN. Thetmes has dom/QUI/pot, Yazid has dom/QUI, Ur-Shulgi has DOM/QUI. qui is also an effective combat discipline, like at long range. > > or DOM/qui/BH == interesting. It's being tossed around POB as a > > possiable deck type. Innovation = fun. Try it. > > Gobbling my chopper = fun. > > Try it. No teeth please. Uh huh, So you can't see a deck in the above? may you be preyed on by Cherryholmes. Cameron

On 24 Nov 2003 23:26:29 -0800, orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) scrawled: >Ok, we agree we don't have POT in this clan on small vampires. >Pretend we do and give me a deck that would use it with OBT to good >effect. We don't need these vampires to explore a strategy... it >doesn't exist AFAIS. I remain open to being wrong about this. Show >me the cool combo of cards that makes this a viable and useful deck >and I'll be happy to complain about the lack of OBT/POT right along >with you. Until then i'll remain happy with the clan the way it is. Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (14 cards) 4 Blood Doll 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 2 Fame 2 Haven Uncovered 1 Political Hunting Ground 3 Potence 1 Power Structure Action (12 cards) 10 Bum's Rush 1 Graverobbing 1 Rampage Action Modifier (9 cards) 4 Shroud of Night 5 Threats Reaction (4 cards) 4 Deflection Combat (51 cards) 2 Darkness Within 3 Decapitate 3 Disarm 1 Fists of Death 10 Immortal Grapple 4 Increased Strength 4 Shadow Step 6 Taste of Vitae 8 Torn Signpost 10 Undead Strength this was an actual built deck, so obviously it could be better if i had better cards. like Tension, for starters, instead of Hunting Ground. Now that i think of it, i was actually running Fake Outs instead of Shadow Step. :( and after playing it i'd probably drop 2 Decapitates for Tastes. If you go look at the Nosferatu Hate You deck, you'll see Behind Yous as replacable maneouvers. Shadow Step goes two better in that it's playable in any round, and if you KNOW they're going to out maneouver you anyway you can just play it at superior. my crypt was a tad large for my liking, but also i was very new to rush combat so i played it a bit poorly, so it didn't do well. If i had a bunch of POT weenies for it, i am sure even i could scrape something decent performace wise. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > Or teaming up with some of those !nos that pack DOM ANI POT. > > > > And why would you do this? > > > > noodleboy > > More importantly, what are 'those' apparently-multiple !nos packing > DOM ANI POT that are being fantasized about? Julio has that discipline > spread, and that's it. Cailean and Tarbaby Jack both have dom ANI POT, > for what little it's worth, and that's it for dominate-!Nos, even > those without ANI POT added. > > -John Flournoy Julio, Nahir AND Silvia Giovanni, there you have 3 really good vamps with ANI POT DOM and two more really good vamps with ANI POT dom. Also, there are a few smallcaps that helps filling the whole crypt (shane grimald-ani dom pot-, Judah- POT ani dom-). I see the use of dom in this deck as an easy way to beam up a crypt and to pack some deflections, so you don't really need to pack lots of permanent intercept and cards to block stealth bleed, and also don't really need to backrush. Sorry to think so, but I don't really see the need to have a whole crypt of DOM vamps to do so. Also, it opens another nice possibility: carrion & murder of crows plus thoughts betrayed, and a nice bunch of aid from bats. Also, back on Nahir topic, I'm building now an "all out enviromental damage deck" with her. Sure, a One Man Army deck again. But might be fun to play carrion+darkness within+weather control And Nahir seems quite good for serious, competitive decks, too. An Anarch revolt deck, for instance, with lots of copies of huitzilopochtli. You loose the great anson, but gain A LOT of room in the deck, as you don't really need to pack storage annex or elder library. Just because it's a vamp that doesn't fit in standard lasombra decks doesn't mean it isn't usefull. Smiling Tom

On 24 Nov 2003, XZealot wrote: > I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge > followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually > it sounds like a really good deck. Go ahead and plug Basilla. You know you want to. :) > Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's > Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific > S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of > Free MinionsTM. It's one of my Three Good Assamite decks. You'll get a good close look at it in a couple of weeks. ;) P.S. Don't *even* expect a repeat of my lousy performance at DragonCon. It was a fluke, man. A fluke, I tell you! See ya in Texas, David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > > However, I would say POT is needed on a Lasombra far more than PRE is. > > > > Not really, If you want POT/DOM try the Giovanni. > > I don't want POT/DOM. I want POT/OBT. I want the Lasombra to be able > to fight as well, if not better than the Gios. This isn't an odd > request considering they both have Potence in clan, and the Lasombra > also have another in clan discipline with great combat utility. FYI, the Lasombra already fight better than the Giovanni. They have access to two "GO DIRECTLY TO TORPOR" cards (i.e. disarm and entombment), where as Giovanni only have access to one. They have access to two additionaly strike cards (arms of the abyss and Black Metamorphisis), one of which is permanent, where as the Giovanni have none. They have access to inferior potence which is about all you need to do grossly disproportionate damage relative to capacity(see Koko vs Arika). They both have access to anti S:CE in both Thoughts betrayed and IG. They both have access to S:CE but Giovanni access it only at superior NEC where as Giovanni get it twice at inferior obt and get uber effects at superior OBT. So how do the Giovanni fight better than the Lasombra? > This is not an outrageous request. To ask for more than two vamps with > a superior IN CLAN discipline below NINE CAPACITY should not be > considered outlandish by any stretch of the imagination. But the Lasombra have a strength that no other clan has. No other clan has such a high proportion of useful integrated titled (i.e princes, archbishops, pricus, cardinals, justicars, or inner circle members) vampires as the Lasombra (7 out of 23= 30%). Ventrue (13 out of 40= 32%)have more, but are split between Group 1 and 3. So are not interfacable. Toreador have the same problem. Tremere only have 7 useful titles Nosferatu only have 8 useful titles > > PRE with Lasombra > > is just incredibly strong given the "presence" of a number of voters > > in the clan. > > It is strong. The point is, it already WAS strong before Tobias > flashed his ugly mug at us. He does not fill a hole. Lasombra PRE/OBT > vote was already a viable and successful strategy. Lasombra POT combat > is non-existent. I would argue that POT combat is not signifigantly more effective than pot combat. IG/Disarm is not functionally different between the two. > Did we need a mid-cap Lasombra with PRE? No, I think not. Not as much > as we need another POT/OBT/obt Lasombra to back the line of Talley and > . . . oh wait, there AREN'T any others. > > > Bless you. > > Thank you. :) > > > I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge > > followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually > > it sounds like a really good deck. > > I presume you're talking a Grapple and not a Thoughts betrayed. But > tell me - how are you going to get your Graverobbing off without Obten > for stealth? Because Lisette, she ain't got none. Or are you really > going build a deck around stealth with obten when your starting > quarterback doesn't even have the discipline at inferior? I would do this by torporizing all of my preys minions or by torporizing all of my preys untapped minions or by torporizing every minion that blocked me. This creates an atmosphere of fear. If I really wanted stealth in a Pro/Pot/Dom deck I would use Seductions and Earth Controls. > > DOM=Graverobbing=Free MinionTM, which last time I checked was never a > > bad thing (unless you are the former owner of said Free MinionTM). > > Again, good luck pulling that one off without OBT. Or are you going to > play other Lasombra with OBT and try to bolt PRO and POT onto them so > they don't choke like bitches in combat? No? So who else is going to > back your line? Francisco and Lisette do not a deck make. And the > original poster didn't even rate Francisco worthy of a mention. Also I have access to titles (i.e. Lazevernius and Fransisco) to defeat Bloodhunts if I attempt to diablerize if really do want to bolt on a discipline. There are plently of pot/pro weenies that can fill out the crypt. > > Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's > > Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific > > S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of > > Free MinionsTM. > > Indeed. Aside from the fact that you can do this without little > Henri's help anyway, again, you're coming up short on stealth. Are you > going to bolt OBT onto Thetmes, or are you going to choke on cards he > can't use in case he's lucky enough to poke someone into torpor? Are > you going to give Henri celerity so he can fight worth a beggar's > cuss, or is he going to die like a bitch the first time someone looks > at him cockeyed? Maybe we can throw in Gratiano and play obf instead? > How exactly does this marvellous Thetmes/Henri dreamteam combo deck > work? If you really need stealth then Thetmes can cloak the gathering every one of your other vampires. Generally Stealth and Rush don't exist in the same decks as they perform opposite functions. There are 7 vampires with qui/dom that seems like the basis for a pretty good crypt. It may not be a tourney champion, but it looks like fun. Three of those have thaumaturgy so Rutor Hands for multiple actions. Three of those have superior OBF so Cloaks are availible. So off the cuff I would make a stealth bleed deck with Perfect Clarity and Deed to the Hearts Desire, or I could make a rush deck with tastes of death, high ground, and fake outs. Thetmes and Henri Deck Name: What I can do at work Created By: Norman S. Brown, Jr. Description: Multirush using Thetmes and Henri Lavenant. Untap using Precognisant Mobility. Graverob unfortunant victims and Blood Doll them. Foul Blood anyone who is hunting. Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 12, Max: 37, Avg: 5.75) ---------------------------------------------- 3 Henri Lavenant pot qui DOM OBT 7, Lasombra 3 Thetmes CEL dom OBF pot QUI 10, Assamite, 2 votes 2 Harika Guljan QUI 3, Assamite 1 Martin Franckel tha AUS 3, Tremere 2 Zoe AUS cel obf 3, Malkavian 1 Isabel de Leon AUS 3, Toreador Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (12 cards) 4 Blood Doll 6 Haven Uncovered 2 Pentex Subversion Action (28 cards) 3 Ambush 3 Bum's Rush 3 Covenant of Blood 8 Graverobbing 3 Harass 8 Precognizant Mobility Action Modifier (16 cards) 10 Cloak the Gathering 6 Deed the Heart`s Desire Reaction (13 cards) 4 Foul Blood 9 Telepathic Counter Combat (21 cards) 5 Disarm 10 Immortal Grapple 6 Pushing the Limit This deck was last saved at 10:23:26 AM on 11/25/2003 > No grand finale do I see. Smoke and mirrors and that is all. That is because you have to think outside the box. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr [ quoted text not captured ]

orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) wrote in message news:<a1e26d99.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > > Now you're just being a tool. Permanent additional strikes and > > presses. The ability to set range - a power granted by only two other > > cards in the ENTIRE GAME. The ability to recoup blood lost in combat > > in addition to Taste of Vitae. Let's not even mention their unsoakable > > torpor strike. How does this equate to "not working well"? > > OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that > you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step > (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't > lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the > range that's wrong for your deck) > > Darkness W/in recoups its cost after a massive POT strike sends a vamp > to torpor... way to waste a card slot. > > There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In > the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so > can Graverobbing, Amaranth.... Except Graverobbings can be blocked - if you were blocking the acting Meth might simply rescue before your turn, and if you were acting/rushing, you need a second action to do the Graverob. Amaranth subjects you to a blood hunt that you might lose. Decapitate just kills their vampire, automatically at no consequence to you besides the cost. (Well, automatically unless someone's playing Redline or another ultra-corner-case card.) > Ok, we agree we don't have POT in this clan on small vampires. > Pretend we do and give me a deck that would use it with OBT to good > effect. We don't need these vampires to explore a strategy... it > doesn't exist AFAIS. I remain open to being wrong about this. Show > me the cool combo of cards that makes this a viable and useful deck > and I'll be happy to complain about the lack of OBT/POT right along > with you. Until then i'll remain happy with the clan the way it is. You can fairly easily build a deck around many copies of Shadow Strike at superior that mirrors an Aid From Bats strategy - keep maneuvering to long, hitting for one and pressing. Except with POT, you can tack on something nasty like Fire in the Blood - I'd skip playing FitB on round one against decks packing S:CE - if they don't end it, then on round 2 start the Fire and watch your damage ramp up each round until they fall. It's certainly true that OBT and POT don't really synergy well at superior for both. On the other hand, if the Lasombra actually had small vamps with POT, they could potentially build a fairly nasty intercept-n-whack'em wall, which would certainly be different. That said, I don't think there's a whole lot of people crying that the Lasombra just aren't effective due to the lack of small-cap POT in the clan. "Oh woe is us, how will we ever win without it! What's that? We won a storyline without it? Uh... but not ALL the storylines!" > Cameron -John Flournoy

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.21.03112...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu>... > See ya in Texas, > > David Cherryholmes > Duke Radiology > P.E.T. Facility > (919) 684-7714 > david.che...@duke.edu wait... so that wasn't an idle curse that I made? cool. Cameron

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.21.03112...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu>... > On 24 Nov 2003, XZealot wrote: > > > I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge > > followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually > > it sounds like a really good deck. > > Go ahead and plug Basilla. You know you want to. :) Just to let you know, I have made a few upgrades to that deck as well. > > Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's > > Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific > > S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of > > Free MinionsTM. > > It's one of my Three Good Assamite decks. You'll get a good close look at > it in a couple of weeks. ;) > > P.S. Don't *even* expect a repeat of my lousy performance at > DragonCon. It was a fluke, man. A fluke, I tell you! <Giggles> What was that deck supposed to do anyway? > See ya in Texas, I can't wait. Do you have a place to crash? I have room to spare. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Time stamp is recent as I only just saved it as a text file for this post, but this is a deck I've had for quite some time. While normally I'm all for ignoring Potence when putting together a deck that interests me, somehow, one would think the crypt config would be a bit different for this deck which does (interest me). Deck Name: Shadow Strike Created By: Talley Description: POT/obt Shadow Strike Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 16, Max: 36, Avg: 6.33) ---------------------------------------------- 2 Bronwen CEL dom obt POT PRE 10, Brujah Antitribu, Priscus 2 Jacko CEL obt POT PRE 8, Brujah Antitribu 2 Talley aus dom OBT POT 6, Lasombra 2 Sela cel obt POT PRE 6, Brujah Antitribu, Bishop 2 Hector Sosa pre POT 4, Brujah 2 Agatha obf POT 4, Nosferatu Antitribu Library: (75 cards) ------------------- Master (15 cards) 1 Barrens, The 5 Blood Doll 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 1 Fame 2 Haven Uncovered 1 Hungry Coyote, The 3 Obtenebration 1 Waste Management Operation Action (9 cards) 8 Bum's Rush 1 Rampage Action Modifier (3 cards) 1 Aire of Elation 1 Conditioning 1 Shadow Play Reaction (12 cards) 1 Deflection 6 Eyes of the Night 5 Forced Awakening Combat (36 cards) 2 Fists of Death 2 Immortal Grapple 14 Shadow Strike 6 Taste of Vitae 12 Torn Signpost This deck was last saved at 10:49:57 AM on 11/25/2003

On 25 Nov 2003 08:59:40 -0800, flou...@rcn.com (John Flournoy) scrawled: [snip] >Except Graverobbings can be blocked - if you were blocking the acting >Meth might simply rescue before your turn, and if you were >acting/rushing, you need a second action to do the Graverob. Amaranth >subjects you to a blood hunt that you might lose. Decapitate just >kills their vampire, automatically at no consequence to you besides >the cost. (Well, automatically unless someone's playing Redline or >another ultra-corner-case card.) Redline won't save a Decapitated vamp, only a vamp burned in a successful Bloodhunt referendum. You'd need Reform Body or Ashes to Ashes. [snip] >That said, I don't think there's a whole lot of people crying that the >Lasombra just aren't effective due to the lack of small-cap POT in the >clan. "Oh woe is us, how will we ever win without it! What's that? We >won a storyline without it? Uh... but not ALL the storylines!" But I'd like to be able to win with them without bleeding or voting or purging baltimore. actually, i'd just like to be able to win a storyline at all....stupid gargoyles. [ quoted text not captured ]

> What kind of POT/OBT deck is this. I can think of ONLY ONE which has > any type of basis in reality, Torn/FoD and Shadow Strike. This > doesn't work with Darkness Within, combat ends to quickly for that > card to be useful. It can work with Black Meta, but that's it. > You're better off using DOM/OBT TB/DW/SStrikes Hmm, let's see. Black Met/Signpost/Darkness Within/Double Shadow Strike/press Black Met/Darkness Within/Shadow Step/Double Lid/press Black Met/Signpost/Grapple/Double Undead Strength/press Black Met/Double Entomb/ Add Decapitates if you think you need them. How's that for starters? > > This makes sense to you? > > Yes. A wonderful world it is, that you live in. > Personally if I were on the design team I'd keep the 2-3 > lasombra like they are. IF OBT/POT is as viable as you make it out to > be (and I see way to much duplication of effort and contraryness for > that to be the case) How so? > OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that > you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step > (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't > lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the > range that's wrong for your deck) See four deck possibilities above. I am certain there are others. > Darkness W/in recoups its cost after a massive POT strike sends a vamp > to torpor... way to waste a card slot. Free with path. Gives you a maneuver. Your first "massive POT strike" doesn't always result in a torpored vampire, meaning if combat goes to round 2 [and it often does] you've done two unpreventable damage to your opponent as well as gaining a blood back for yourself. Darkness Within is a fine addition to any Lasombra combat deck. > There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In > the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so > can Graverobbing, Amaranth.... Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt. Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*. > I'd hazard a guess, that OBT was chosen over POT because there are 5 > other clans with POT in the game, one and a half (EuroBru) that have > POT/DOM and enough weenies have pot. Alas. I am not interested in your "guesses". > again, probably on purpose, b/c to many weenies with pot is a bad > thing, like to many weenies with dom, pre, or any other damn > discipline. As for a POT/obt Tabitha, there hasn't been a 4cap with > POT made since Sabbat that doesn't have a huge drawback (hi Chas), > probably to keep Peter Bakija from having a heart attack. I don't > expect to see anymore until G4, if then. I would settle for a 5 pointer. Hell, i'd settle for another 6 pointer, so long as they at least have obt. Shit, at this stage, I'd even settle for a 7 pointer. To me, this is not an outrageous request. Certainly not when already viable strats [ie, PRE vote] are still being fleshed out. > > Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn > > fool. > > sorry no wink function. Fool it is, then. > > Refute this statement, if you can. Find me another Clan that has had > > any of it's in Clan disciplines so thoroughly ignored as Potence has > > been in Clan Lasombra. If you can. > > FOR in the !Ventrue and Ravnos, lots of inferior, little superior till > high caps. Stats, please? "lots" and "little" are not enough to back your statements. > Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat. "Somewhat"? What exactly constitutes "somewhat"? > because they don't have POT. And that's the only standard you use to > judge vampires? Banjoko doesn't have POT. Yet I gave him two thumbs up. You're grasping at straws, my good man. > perfectly possiable to make a POT/pro storyline legal Lasombra deck > now. Without Francisco, whom you discounted as being too pricey? Pray tell, what would your crypt be? > you say that qui is of no use in a deck that is primarily DOM/OBT > bleed... the primary use of the Lasombra, right? How does POT help > that deck work. How does pot help that deck work. How does that deck > need anything but DOM and OBT to function. You made a strawman to > attack (qui doesn't help you bleed, except that it does now with Deed > the Hearts Desire) I'm pointing out that POT does not either (and > even less than qui.) Indeed. I never said POT would help a bleed deck. I started by saying qui was a somewhat questionable addition to Henri. You stated that between him, Tobias and Gratiano to Govern, you have quite a Bleed deck going. This was never refuted, nor did I mention POT. I asked how the f*ck qui is going to help you in this bleed deck, because the addition of qui to Henri is my only complaint about him. To this, you have no answer except to babble about Deed the heart's Desire. You're honestly going to include this card in your Tobias/Henri/Gratiano powerbleed deck? > Ok, we agree we don't have POT in this clan on small vampires. > Pretend we do and give me a deck that would use it with OBT to good > effect. We don't need these vampires to explore a strategy... it > doesn't exist AFAIS. I remain open to being wrong about this. Show > me the cool combo of cards that makes this a viable and useful deck > and I'll be happy to complain about the lack of OBT/POT right along > with you. Until then i'll remain happy with the clan the way it is. See decks posted by other below, and the deck concepts above. If you can see no merit here, then there is no convincing you. Remain happy. Enjoy your life of bliss. Everything is super. > What's their Discipline Spread... SC has ANI/AUS, and FGm has THA... > right? > > DOM/qui/OBT is three prevent people from blocking disciplines. with > Seduction/DeedTHD/BoN. Thetmes has dom/QUI/pot, Yazid has dom/QUI, > Ur-Shulgi has DOM/QUI. Indeed. And you're going to bother trying to squeeze henri in here? >qui is also an effective combat discipline, > like at long range. Indeed. And how exactly is Henri going to get to long range without cel? You going to bolt another discipline onto him, or are you going to play Fake Outs? > Uh huh, So you can't see a deck in the above? may you be preyed on by > Cherryholmes. Oh, I see a deck. I just don't see a very good one. noodleboy

> That said, I don't think there's a whole lot of people crying that the > Lasombra just aren't effective due to the lack of small-cap POT in the > clan. "Oh woe is us, how will we ever win without it! What's that? We > won a storyline without it? Uh... but not ALL the storylines!" No-one has said they aren't effective on this thread. Re-read. n

On 25 Nov 2003 15:44:53 -0800, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote: >Stats, please? "lots" and "little" are not enough to back your >statements. Speaking as someone pissed that he can't work Kiss of Ra into his Red Herring angle, I do note a sad lack of CHI/FOR Ravnos: Joaquina Amaya, 6 cap Etienne Fauberge, 8 cap Tereza Rostas, 8 cap Konstantin, 9 cap Darius Styx 9 cap Ankla Hotep, 9 cap Spider-Killer, 10 cap Ivan, 10 cap Ezmerelda, 11 cap I know my criteria, superior CHI is more stringent than yours, but inferior Chimestry is ass (unlike inferior Obt), and they are overall a much weaker clan than the Lasombra. >Indeed. I never said POT would help a bleed deck. I started by saying >qui was a somewhat questionable addition to Henri. You stated that >between him, Tobias and Gratiano to Govern, you have quite a Bleed >deck going. This was never refuted, nor did I mention POT. I asked how >the f*ck qui is going to help you in this bleed deck, because the >addition of qui to Henri is my only complaint about him. "Unbouncable" *might* be worth throwing a few skill cards at, to round out a deck. >Oh, I see a deck. I just don't see a very good one. I haven't built that, so I can't comment on it. Probably bad, but that's generally a safe statement to make about Assamite decks. David Cherryholmes VEKN Prince of Durham, NC

> FYI, the Lasombra already fight better than the Giovanni. They have > access to two "GO DIRECTLY TO TORPOR" cards (i.e. disarm and > entombment), where as Giovanni only have access to one. They have > access to two additionaly strike cards (arms of the abyss and Black > Metamorphisis), one of which is permanent, where as the Giovanni have > none. They have access to inferior potence which is about all you > need to do grossly disproportionate damage relative to capacity(see > Koko vs Arika). They both have access to anti S:CE in both Thoughts > betrayed and IG. They both have access to S:CE but Giovanni access it > only at superior NEC where as Giovanni get it twice at inferior obt > and get uber effects at superior OBT. > > So how do the Giovanni fight better than the Lasombra? The Giovanni have a much larger spread of POT across their mid to low caps than the Lasombra. In a match-up between POT and obt/pot vamps, all of the Obten cards you've described aside from Black Met are nullified by an IG, leaving a match up between a POT vamp, and a pot vamp with an additional strike. I know where my money would be. The pot vamp will be in torpor before it ever sees the additional strike phase. In general combat terms, yes I will conceed that the utility granted by Obten [Shadow Step, Arms, Entomb, Shadow Strike, etc] makes the Gios and the Lasombra quite an even race. However, this doesn't change the fact that a basic combat strat for a clan with Potence cannot be realistically achieved with the Lasombra crypt option we presently have. To me, this is illogical and frustrating. > But the Lasombra have a strength that no other clan has. > > No other clan has such a high proportion of useful integrated titled > (i.e princes, archbishops, pricus, cardinals, justicars, or inner > circle members) vampires as the Lasombra (7 out of 23= 30%). Indeed. But all of these titles appear at the 9+ mark, with the exception of Gratiano [who is truly an awesome vampire] and a merged Lucita [who effectively costs 9 pool or more to influence out anyway]. This goes back to my orginal point about Lasombra decks strats being limited due to the generally high capacity of their useful vampires. A large contingent of bloat cards MUST be included in every Lasombra deck as a result, because the vamps are so damned expensive. > I would argue that POT combat is not signifigantly more effective than > pot combat. IG/Disarm is not functionally different between the two. I would strongly disagree. Potence combat decks cannot rely solely upon a big Pot strike/Disarm combo. Most Pot combat decks I've seen have 1, maybe 2 disarms. These decks must win by attrition - striking for massive levels of damage repeatedly with Immortal Grapples to overcome fortitude and SCE defense strats. I'm sure Peter Bajika could argue this point far better than I, but my personal experiences lead me to believe that you're dead wrong here. > I would do this by torporizing all of my preys minions or by > torporizing all of my preys untapped minions or by torporizing every > minion that blocked me. This creates an atmosphere of fear. Meanwhile, those gravrobs are clogging your hand while you wait for all his minions to die. Additionally, your grandprey is not being touched by his ass-raped predator and is winning the game - a problem with any rush deck when it gets flown by a "block me and f*cking die" type pilot. [I used to be one] You will need stealth to get your gravrobs through. Otherwise, you'll destroy your prey's minions so he can deal no pressure to his own prey, and in the time it takes to oust him, your grandprey is sweeping. The best way to do it would be with pro stealth, although this becomes mighty expensive, mighty fast, considering the 2 blood you play to graverob or rescue, all the blood you're paying for your pro stealth, the blood you play for your claws in combat and the fact that you're not Tasting back anything because you're relying on scrtaches, not big hits, to put your mark down. > If I really wanted stealth in a Pro/Pot/Dom deck I would use > Seductions and Earth Controls. Seductions would be problematic, given the capacity of your vamps and the rarity of DOM. However, not impossible to do, particularly if you recruit Francisco, which the original poster refused to do. > Also I have access to titles (i.e. Lazevernius and Fransisco) to > defeat Bloodhunts if I attempt to diablerize if really do want to bolt > on a discipline. There are plently of pot/pro weenies that can fill > out the crypt. Again, this is sounding less and less like a Lasombra deck, and more a mishmash of pot/pro vamps. I didn't doubt Tabitha''s utility in a deck like this. However, is it Lasombra? > If you really need stealth then Thetmes can cloak the gathering every > one of your other vampires. Generally Stealth and Rush don't exist in > the same decks as they perform opposite functions. I thought the whole point of Henri's inclusion in this deck was to graverob? You really think you're going to pull off a Graverobbing with any regularity with only 1 stealth? Best of luck, matey. >There are 7 > vampires with qui/dom that seems like the basis for a pretty good > crypt. It may not be a tourney champion, but it looks like fun. Three > of those have thaumaturgy so Rutor Hands for multiple actions. Three > of those have superior OBF so Cloaks are availible. So off the cuff I > would make a stealth bleed deck with Perfect Clarity and Deed to the > Hearts Desire, With Henri? What are you smoking? > or I could make a rush deck with tastes of death, high > ground, and fake outs. With Henri? Why the hell would you bother? You could achive more in the same deck with Harika! > Thetmes and Henri > > Deck Name: What I can do at work > Created By: Norman S. Brown, Jr. > Description: Multirush using Thetmes and Henri Lavenant. Untap using > Precognisant Mobility. Graverob unfortunant victims and Blood Doll > them. Foul Blood anyone who is hunting. Okay, problems that I can see scanning this in 30 seconds: You have no maneuvers aside from your rush actions. Guns, bats, hell, even Fake Outs will own you. You have no bleed, no Fames, no Tensions. Therefore, you have no means by which to actually oust your prey, aside bleeding for 1 lots and lots. Cloak the gathering will not be enough to pull off a Graverobbing. You have no means to prevent damage, whatsoever. Sadie could take out your whole deck with one claw. Pentex. Why? I can continue if you wish. Needless to say, I think this deck would be fun for all of about 30 minutes, until it had it's ass handed to it and you packed it up and never played it again. > > No grand finale do I see. Smoke and mirrors and that is all. > > That is because you have to think outside the box. I live there. No Henri/Thetmes dream team do I see. noodleboy

> Speaking as someone pissed that he can't work Kiss of Ra into his Red > Herring angle, Heh. That would be pretty funny. >I do note a sad lack of CHI/FOR Ravnos: > > Joaquina Amaya, 6 cap > Etienne Fauberge, 8 cap > Tereza Rostas, 8 cap > Konstantin, 9 cap > Darius Styx 9 cap > Ankla Hotep, 9 cap > Spider-Killer, 10 cap > Ivan, 10 cap > Ezmerelda, 11 cap Almost as bad as the Lasombra, but not quite. Speaking from either a POT/OBT or POT/obt perspective, Lasombra still come up shorter than the Ravnos - Talley being the only POT lasombra with any level of Obtenebration under 9 points. > I know my criteria, superior CHI is more stringent than yours, but > inferior Chimestry is ass (unlike inferior Obt), and they are overall > a much weaker clan than the Lasombra. I agree with you, despite the 2nd place for Ravnos the year Lasombra won the Stroyline tourney. But we both know this isn't the point I'm making. I'm saying there is no clan in the game that's had one of it's 3 IC disciplines so thoroughly ignored as the Lasombra have had Potence. This has been my gripe for years. It still hasn't been addressed. To me, it seems a gaping hole that needs filling long before we need another "born to bleed" vamp like Henri, or another voter like Tobias. > "Unbouncable" *might* be worth throwing a few skill cards at, to round > out a deck. Not so sure about that one. No other qui Lasombra. Seems like wing and a prayer stuff to me. > I haven't built that, so I can't comment on it. Probably bad, but > that's generally a safe statement to make about Assamite decks. I hear they stone you death for that kind of talk over at PoB. :) noodleboy

noodleboy wrote: > I would strongly disagree. Potence combat decks cannot rely solely > upon a big Pot strike/Disarm combo. Most Pot combat decks I've seen > have 1, maybe 2 disarms. These decks must win by attrition - striking > for massive levels of damage repeatedly with Immortal Grapples to > overcome fortitude and SCE defense strats. I'm sure Peter Bajika could > argue this point far better than I, but my personal experiences lead > me to believe that you're dead wrong here. While Disarm is certainly useful for getting big vampires in torpor with smaller vampires in a pinch, what really does the trick is sending vampires to torpor with no blood on them, which doesn't happen with the inferior Undead Strength/Disarm combo--your opponent goes torpor with most of their blood and they are backand acting immediately. Hitting with POT (and some sort of TS/US or TS/Blur IG abuse) results in empty vampires, which means difficulty getting out of torpor, which means you are doing your job better. Now US/Disarm/Decapitate--now that is a handy combo :-) Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "The gun is good! The penis is bad!" -Zardoz

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > FYI, the Lasombra already fight better than the Giovanni. They have > > access to two "GO DIRECTLY TO TORPOR" cards (i.e. disarm and > > entombment), where as Giovanni only have access to one. They have > > access to two additionaly strike cards (arms of the abyss and Black > > Metamorphisis), one of which is permanent, where as the Giovanni have > > none. They have access to inferior potence which is about all you > > need to do grossly disproportionate damage relative to capacity(see > > Koko vs Arika). They both have access to anti S:CE in both Thoughts > > betrayed and IG. They both have access to S:CE but Giovanni access it > > only at superior NEC where as Giovanni get it twice at inferior obt > > and get uber effects at superior OBT. > > > > So how do the Giovanni fight better than the Lasombra? > > The Giovanni have a much larger spread of POT across their mid to low > caps than the Lasombra. In a match-up between POT and obt/pot vamps, > all of the Obten cards you've described aside from Black Met are > nullified by an IG, leaving a match up between a POT vamp, and a pot > vamp with an additional strike. I know where my money would be. The > pot vamp will be in torpor before it ever sees the additional strike > phase. Yes the Giovanni have more POT across their mid to low caps but you should disregard Chas Tello Giovanni as a strong POT rush vamp due to his handicap. Your spread is 6,7,7,8,8,9,9,10,10,11 without Chas. And as to your opinion about a pot and a POT vampire going head to head, they will probably both end up in torpor. > In general combat terms, yes I will conceed that the utility granted > by Obten [Shadow Step, Arms, Entomb, Shadow Strike, etc] makes the > Gios and the Lasombra quite an even race. However, this doesn't change > the fact that a basic combat strat for a clan with Potence cannot be > realistically achieved with the Lasombra crypt option we presently > have. To me, this is illogical and frustrating. The only monoclan POT deck I have ever seen work is the EuroBrujah Princes, and that is more of a functionality of the Prince title than of POT. Correct me if you have seen otherwise. > > But the Lasombra have a strength that no other clan has. > > > > No other clan has such a high proportion of useful integrated titled > > (i.e princes, archbishops, pricus, cardinals, justicars, or inner > > circle members) vampires as the Lasombra (7 out of 23= 30%). > > Indeed. But all of these titles appear at the 9+ mark, with the > exception of Gratiano [who is truly an awesome vampire] and a merged > Lucita [who effectively costs 9 pool or more to influence out anyway]. > This goes back to my orginal point about Lasombra decks strats being > limited due to the generally high capacity of their useful vampires. A > large contingent of bloat cards MUST be included in every Lasombra > deck as a result, because the vamps are so damned expensive. Generally non-multi-rush deck archtype and large capacity vampires are incompatible (exception, see EuroBrujah). > > I would argue that POT combat is not signifigantly more effective than > > pot combat. IG/Disarm is not functionally different between the two. > > I would strongly disagree. Potence combat decks cannot rely solely > upon a big Pot strike/Disarm combo. Most Pot combat decks I've seen > have 1, maybe 2 disarms. These decks must win by attrition - striking > for massive levels of damage repeatedly with Immortal Grapples to > overcome fortitude and SCE defense strats. I'm sure Peter Bajika could > argue this point far better than I, but my personal experiences lead > me to believe that you're dead wrong here. AFAIK, Peter's decks and most other pot decks use 4+ Disarms. I usually use 6-8 in my pot decks because it is a one card trump. > > I would do this by torporizing all of my preys minions or by > > torporizing all of my preys untapped minions or by torporizing every > > minion that blocked me. This creates an atmosphere of fear. > > Meanwhile, those gravrobs are clogging your hand while you wait for > all his minions to die. Additionally, your grandprey is not being > touched by his ass-raped predator and is winning the game - a problem > with any rush deck when it gets flown by a "block me and f*cking die" > type pilot. [I used to be one] FYI, a blocked graverob is the same as a rush. > You will need stealth to get your gravrobs through. Otherwise, you'll > destroy your prey's minions so he can deal no pressure to his own > prey, and in the time it takes to oust him, your grandprey is > sweeping. The best way to do it would be with pro stealth, although > this becomes mighty expensive, mighty fast, considering the 2 blood > you play to graverob or rescue, all the blood you're paying for your > pro stealth, the blood you play for your claws in combat and the fact > that you're not Tasting back anything because you're relying on > scrtaches, not big hits, to put your mark down. You destroy your prey's minions then add them to your own and now you are creating a critical mass to thump your grandprey by having 4+ minions who are not weenies. > > If I really wanted stealth in a Pro/Pot/Dom deck I would use > > Seductions and Earth Controls. > > Seductions would be problematic, given the capacity of your vamps and > the rarity of DOM. However, not impossible to do, particularly if you > recruit Francisco, which the original poster refused to do. Earth Control still works and the two together work nicely. > > Also I have access to titles (i.e. Lazevernius and Fransisco) to > > defeat Bloodhunts if I attempt to diablerize if really do want to bolt > > on a discipline. There are plently of pot/pro weenies that can fill > > out the crypt. > > Again, this is sounding less and less like a Lasombra deck, and more a > mishmash of pot/pro vamps. I didn't doubt Tabitha''s utility in a deck > like this. However, is it Lasombra? Oh, so your a purist! I didn't realize that you had your blinders on. Dear Santa, For Christmas this year I want my Lasombra to be the best voters, stealth bleeders, pot combat, and everything else clan. I want to shelve all my other cards and just play with one clan, the best clan. I want them to be the best of the best. No other clan should hold a candle to them. I can't believe that no-goodnik LSJ didn't right it into the rules that if I play Lasombra then I automatically win. Thanks, Noodleboy Why don't you try that. > > If you really need stealth then Thetmes can cloak the gathering every > > one of your other vampires. Generally Stealth and Rush don't exist in > > the same decks as they perform opposite functions. > > I thought the whole point of Henri's inclusion in this deck was to > graverob? You really think you're going to pull off a Graverobbing > with any regularity with only 1 stealth? I do it all the time at zero stealth, so 1 stealth seems like gravy to me. > Best of luck, matey. Thanks, I'll need it next weekend. > >There are 7 > > vampires with qui/dom that seems like the basis for a pretty good > > crypt. It may not be a tourney champion, but it looks like fun. Three > > of those have thaumaturgy so Rutor Hands for multiple actions. Three > > of those have superior OBF so Cloaks are availible. So off the cuff I > > would make a stealth bleed deck with Perfect Clarity and Deed to the > > Hearts Desire, > > With Henri? What are you smoking? The good stuff, makes you jealous doesn't it. > > or I could make a rush deck with tastes of death, high > > ground, and fake outs. > > With Henri? Why the hell would you bother? You could achive more in > the same deck with Harika! You should probably include Harika in the same deck, but Henri allows you to graverob. > > Thetmes and Henri > > > > Deck Name: What I can do at work > > Created By: Norman S. Brown, Jr. > > Description: Multirush using Thetmes and Henri Lavenant. Untap using > > Precognisant Mobility. Graverob unfortunant victims and Blood Doll > > them. Foul Blood anyone who is hunting. > > Okay, problems that I can see scanning this in 30 seconds: > > You have no maneuvers aside from your rush actions. Guns, bats, hell, > even Fake Outs will own you. > You have no bleed, no Fames, no Tensions. Therefore, you have no means > by which to actually oust your prey, aside bleeding for 1 lots and > lots. > Cloak the gathering will not be enough to pull off a Graverobbing. > You have no means to prevent damage, whatsoever. Sadie could take out > your whole deck with one claw. > Pentex. Why? > > I can continue if you wish. Needless to say, I think this deck would > be fun for all of about 30 minutes, until it had it's ass handed to it > and you packed it up and never played it again. Well, at least you're having fun. > > > No grand finale do I see. Smoke and mirrors and that is all. > > > > That is because you have to think outside the box. > > I live there. No Henri/Thetmes dream team do I see. That is probably because Thetmes isn't a Lasombra <sar> Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. [ quoted text not captured ]

XZealot wrote: > What was that deck supposed to do anyway? Brinksmanship. Don't recall if I ever got a Harbinger out, what with all the bleedings and the beatings and the stealings. > I can't wait. Do you have a place to crash? I have room to spare. Neither can I. This year's GenCon was no Week of Nightmares, at least not for me. This weekend, with everyone staying in the same place, should be a lot closer to it. You and I are splitting a room, as per the email I got this morning. -- [ quoted text not captured ]

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > What kind of POT/OBT deck is this. I can think of ONLY ONE which has > > any type of basis in reality, Torn/FoD and Shadow Strike. This > > doesn't work with Darkness Within, combat ends to quickly for that > > card to be useful. It can work with Black Meta, but that's it. > > You're better off using DOM/OBT TB/DW/SStrikes > > Hmm, let's see. > > Black Met/Signpost/Darkness Within/Double Shadow Strike/press mentioned as the best OBT/POT can do. Still loses to and S:CE... IE - this is piss poor combat. It suffers from setup lag (equiping the BM, prerange problems gotta play a TS/DW, then loses them if combat ends.) IE... it's like Ravnos Combat without the intercept and prevents and freakdrives. BUT, why the Torn? you've got 2 presses, why not just more of the same... it gains you more blood off the DW after all. So OBT is good, POT can help, maybe. > Black Met/Darkness Within/Shadow Step/Double Lid/press see above. except now we're burning even more blood before the S:CE step. > Black Met/Signpost/Grapple/Double Undead Strength/press this I just don't get. POT strikes sould be able to send people to torpor in one good hit, then you have a press from IG, and hit again. CEL additionals are good because they're a combat card. You don't have to spend 2 blood and a blockable action to equip them. The OBT here is gravy that brings up your capacity, and makes your combat deck weaker. > Black Met/Double Entomb/ > > Add Decapitates if you think you need them. Oh, if i need to I can add POT to OBT, which is ok without it. Or DOM and OBT stealth to go and get that full torporized minion, for the same blood cost. > A wonderful world it is, that you live in. Yes it is, pity you will not join me. > > OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that > > you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step > > (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't > > lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the > > range that's wrong for your deck) > > See four deck possibilities above. I am certain there are others. You're certain? Good for you. <9th grade math teacher> Now show you're proof. </9th grade math teacher> I see the decks above as proof that POT/OBT is a bastardized marriage at best, and likely to be useless overall. > > There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In > > the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so > > can Graverobbing, Amaranth.... > > Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually > requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt. > Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*. stealth... in an OBT deck. Where will we find that? dom... on the Lasombra! We'll never see... Nevermind. > > I'd hazard a guess, that OBT was chosen over POT because there are 5 > > other clans with POT in the game, one and a half (EuroBru) that have > > POT/DOM and enough weenies have pot. > > Alas. I am not interested in your "guesses". Then why are you having a discussion about this? Why didn't you just entitle this thread "Noodleboy vents his spleen about the lack of POT in the Lasombra" and let us all move along? Why do you think pot is the lasombra's third discipline? do you think LSJ has a personal vendetta against you? Can you come up with a real answer to the arugement above? > > again, probably on purpose, b/c to many weenies with pot is a bad > > thing, like to many weenies with dom, pre, or any other damn > > discipline. As for a POT/obt Tabitha, there hasn't been a 4cap with > > POT made since Sabbat that doesn't have a huge drawback (hi Chas), > > probably to keep Peter Bakija from having a heart attack. I don't > > expect to see anymore until G4, if then. > > I would settle for a 5 pointer. Hell, i'd settle for another 6 > pointer, so long as they at least have obt. Shit, at this stage, I'd > even settle for a 7 pointer. To me, this is not an outrageous request. > Certainly not when already viable strats [ie, PRE vote] are still > being fleshed out. May your wishes be granted, but again probably not in G2-3 > > > Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn > > > fool. > > > > sorry no wink function. > > Fool it is, then. Oh, so I tell you I was joking, and I'm a fool... Fine I'll be the wise fool, you be the jackass trying to convince the world that your vision of reality is the only proper one. > > > Refute this statement, if you can. Find me another Clan that has had > > > any of it's in Clan disciplines so thoroughly ignored as Potence has > > > been in Clan Lasombra. If you can. > > > > FOR in the !Ventrue and Ravnos, lots of inferior, little superior till > > high caps. > > Stats, please? "lots" and "little" are not enough to back your > statements. <sigh> http://monger.vekn.org/ !ven FOR: 6,7,7,7,7,8,9,10 Ravnos FOR: 5,6,6,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,11 Ravnos CHI/FOR:6,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,11 Why is this? Weenies with FOR are powerful, and have been limited since Jyhad > > Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat. > > "Somewhat"? What exactly constitutes "somewhat"? Umm... its ignored more than their other 2 disciplines? > > perfectly possiable to make a POT/pro storyline legal Lasombra deck > > now. > > Without Francisco, whom you discounted as being too pricey? Pray tell, > what would your crypt be? You keep saying this a lot. In the good tournement winning version of the deck, I don't use Fran. 2x Lisette POT/pro 2x Ilse POT/pro 2x Henry Taylor POT/pro 2x Tabitha Fisk pot/pro 1x Agatha POT 1x Hugo POT 1x Paul DiCarlo pot 1x Arnold Simpson pot In the storyline version (now available) 3x Lisette 2x Tabitha 2x Cameron 2x Hester Reed 1x Ilse 2x Henry and I add some GtU for the larger crypt size. > > you say that qui is of no use in a deck that is primarily DOM/OBT > > bleed... the primary use of the Lasombra, right? How does POT help > > that deck work. How does pot help that deck work. How does that deck > > need anything but DOM and OBT to function. You made a strawman to > > attack (qui doesn't help you bleed, except that it does now with Deed > > the Hearts Desire) I'm pointing out that POT does not either (and > > even less than qui.) > > Indeed. I never said POT would help a bleed deck. I started by saying > qui was a somewhat questionable addition to Henri. You stated that > between him, Tobias and Gratiano to Govern, you have quite a Bleed > deck going. This was never refuted, nor did I mention POT. I asked how > the f*ck qui is going to help you in this bleed deck, because the > addition of qui to Henri is my only complaint about him. > > To this, you have no answer except to babble about Deed the heart's > Desire. You're honestly going to include this card in your > Tobias/Henri/Gratiano powerbleed deck? No, I said that qui helps you as much as pot in a bleed deck. Then I realized that qui IS helpful in a bleed deck, although one you categorically denounce as stupid. > See decks posted by other below, and the deck concepts above. If you > can see no merit here, then there is no convincing you. Remain happy. > Enjoy your life of bliss. Everything is super. Yep. I still don't think that POT is helpful in an OBT combat deck. > > DOM/qui/OBT is three prevent people from blocking disciplines. with > > Seduction/DeedTHD/BoN. Thetmes has dom/QUI/pot, Yazid has dom/QUI, > > Ur-Shulgi has DOM/QUI. > > Indeed. And you're going to bother trying to squeeze henri in here? As another DOM/qui vamp. Yes I am. Especially with GtU at suprior. > Indeed. And how exactly is Henri going to get to long range without > cel? You going to bolt another discipline onto him, or are you going > to play Fake Outs? Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn fool. YOU spend the best part of a decade above going into how Great Shadow Step and Darkness Within are. If I'm making an OBT/qui deck, I'm not using them why? And having read The Archon of the Swamps excellent post I have to revise myself. pot is the lasombra's fourth discipline after titles. Just like it should be for a clan that thrives on politics, intrigue, and convincing others to do their dirty work. Cameron

On 26 Nov 2003 12:05:17 -0800, orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) wrote: OBT/POT, huh? Oldish version follows. Could be made *much* better if OBT/POT were more viable. Add more Shadow Step (still needs to be reprinted), throw in a few Arms of the Abyss for dodging Tzimisce, a few Black Metamorphosis for added goodness. A few Wakes & Deflections if you like. Previously much more combat-y. Both could be much better with better pot/obt. Deck Name: Might Makes Right v2 Created By: Xian Description: Lasombra Bruise/Bleed/Vote. Storyline legal. Consider adding Lisette Vizquel. Crypt: (10 cards, Min: 12, Max: 26, Avg: 4.80) ---------------------------------------------- 2 Mitchell obt pot 2, Pander 2 Ignacio dom obt pot 4, Lasombra 1 Chas Giovanni Tello DOM POT 4, Giovanni 2 Aurora Van Brande dom for OBT pot 6, Lasombra 2 Talley aus dom OBT POT 6, Lasombra 1 Lucita cel DOM FOR OBT pot 8, Lasombra Obviously, something is missing in the crypt, probably Lucita^, and someone else. Have had a few problems since moving to the newest version of eldb3. Library: (89 cards) ------------------- Master (13 cards) 4 Blood Doll 1 Dominate 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 1 Elysian Fields 1 Fame 2 Haven Uncovered 1 Obtenebration 1 Potence 1 Power Structure Action (15 cards) 2 Black Metamorphosis 4 Bum's Rush 4 Govern the Unaligned 5 Political Struggle Action Modifier (9 cards) 4 Foreshadowing Destruction 2 Shadow Play 3 Shroud of Night Political Action (6 cards) 1 Cardinal Benediction 3 Consanguineous Boon 2 Templar Reaction (16 cards) 7 Deflection 2 Eyes of the Night 7 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (30 cards) 2 Amaranth 1 Burning Wrath 3 Disarm 7 Immortal Grapple 5 Increased Strength 6 Taste of Vitae 6 Torn Signpost Previous version: Deck Name: Might Makes Right Created By: Xian Description: Lasombra Rush with vote defense from Political Struggle. Consider adding a couple of Entombment or GtU. Also, Chas Giovanni Tello. Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 7, Max: 22, Avg: 3.42) --------------------------------------------- 2 Cameron dom pot 3, Lasombra 1 Chas Giovanni Tello DOM POT 4, Giovanni 1 Hasina Kesi pot 1, Caitiff 1 Ignacio dom obt pot 4, Lasombra 1 KoKo pot 2, Nosferatu 1 Lisette Vizquel DOM POT pro 6, Lasombra, Bishop 1 Lupo pot 2, Brujah 2 Mitchell obt pot 2, Pander 2 Talley aus dom OBT POT 6, Lasombra Library: (90 cards) ------------------- Master (14 cards) 1 Barrens, The 4 Blood Doll 1 Dreams of the Sphinx 4 Haven Uncovered 1 Obtenebration 3 Potence Action (18 cards) 12 Bum's Rush 4 Political Struggle 2 Rampage Combat (58 cards) 1 Burning Wrath 1 Decapitate 4 Disarm 6 Fists of Death 12 Immortal Grapple 4 Shadow Step 8 Taste of Vitae 10 Torn Signpost 12 Undead Strength Xian

Xian <xi...@visi.com> wrote in message news:<bv9asvc2stctdhh64...@4ax.com>... > On 26 Nov 2003 12:05:17 -0800, orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron) > wrote: > > OBT/POT, huh? > > Oldish version follows. Could be made *much* better if OBT/POT were > more viable. > > Add more Shadow Step (still needs to be reprinted), throw in a few > Arms of the Abyss for dodging Tzimisce, a few Black Metamorphosis for > added goodness. A few Wakes & Deflections if you like. Previously > much more combat-y. Both could be much better with better pot/obt. > <SNIP DECKS> Xian, thanks. I'll look into it some more with the Milwaukee people. Hows life in the frozen north? Cameron

> Yes the Giovanni have more POT across their mid to low caps but you > should disregard Chas Tello Giovanni as a strong POT rush vamp due to > his handicap. Your spread is 6,7,7,8,8,9,9,10,10,11 without Chas. You cannot possibly disregard Chas. He's an excellent rusher, despite his disad. At the worst, you cost someone a Master they could have played, potentially to your detriment. At best, you knocked someone's fangs down their throat and tore their head off. > And as to your opinion about a pot and a POT vampire going head to > head, they will probably both end up in torpor. Let's take an average capacity vampire in average POT rush deck: I'd say 4 would be reasonable. POT vs pot. Both drop a Fists of Death. Both drop a Torn Signpost. Both Grapple. Both hit with Pushing the limit. POT vamp does 8 dmg. pot vamp does 5 dmg. Both are in torpor. However, let's play a sensible collection of POT cards from the "Nos hate you" school of thought, ie, that none of your cards should cost you blood, so that your minions can fight just as effectively full as empty. This strategy sees most successes amongst the Potence rush deck school. Both drop a Torn Signpost. Both IG. Both strike with Undead Strength. POT vamp strikes for 5. pot vamp strikes for 3. POT vamp lives to Taste. pot vamps dies screaming. > The only monoclan POT deck I have ever seen work is the EuroBrujah > Princes, and that is more of a functionality of the Prince title than > of POT. Correct me if you have seen otherwise. Indeed I have. The grand-daddy of all POT rush decks "The Nosferatu hate you" by Peter Bakija is a steamroller of POT destruction that has spawned countless imitators [My own "Beastie Boys included]. It is the quintessential POT deck, which pretty much taught me everything I know about mono POT combat. It's achived at the Lasombra's site in it's various incarnations. Check it out. Definitely worth a look. > Generally non-multi-rush deck archtype and large capacity vampires are > incompatible (exception, see EuroBrujah). Exactly. This is precisely why the lasombra need a mid-point range of POT vampires. > AFAIK, Peter's decks and most other pot decks use 4+ Disarms. I > usually use 6-8 in my pot decks because it is a one card trump. The decks of peter's that i've seen don't use that many Disarms. 6-8 is far too extreme in my opinion. I find even 3 clogging my hand in "Beastie Boys". Sending vamps to torpor isn't a problem. having them bounced right back out again is. hence why i play with more Pulled Fangs than Disarms nowadays. > FYI, a blocked graverob is the same as a rush. Yes. It's also a wasted card. It also spells the doom of the blocker in a good rush deck. See my previous points about the "block me and f*cking die" mentality. > You destroy your prey's minions then add them to your own and now you > are creating a critical mass to thump your grandprey by having 4+ > minions who are not weenies. 4+ minions who in all likelihood don't have any of your disciplines. Thus, if your grandprey has any kind of decent combat, the minions you've robbed wind up in torpor during their first 1 point bleed. Additionally, despite your assertions, the 5 or 6 turns it will realistically take you to destroy and graverob all of your prey's minions and then bleed him out of the game with massed 1 point bleeds will see your grandprey probably oust his prey, and be halfway through his next prey [you, in a 4 player]. Unless of course you want to start rushing across table before you've even got your first oust to keep your grandprey "in check", which means fighting a war on three fronts [forwards, backwards and across table] and your almost inevitable demise before your first vp. > > Seductions would be problematic, given the capacity of your vamps and > > the rarity of DOM. However, not impossible to do, particularly if you > > recruit Francisco, which the original poster refused to do. > > Earth Control still works and the two together work nicely. Again, see my points about blood problems. But yes, pro stealth is the best solution. > Oh, so your a purist! I didn't realize that you had your blinders on. Again, my entire opening tirade again Tabitha, which started this whole sordid affair was based upon a Clan lasombra perspective, given that this is a lasombra newsletter, albeit unofficial. I will probably stick her in my Jalan and Co black hand POT/PRO deck to hold the line. Will that be a Lasombra deck? No. Will i stick her in any lasombra deck? No. Because the only deck I see her feasibly being good in [pot/obt rush] can't be made because of our lack of mid point POT vamps. And besides, her artwork just plain sucks. :) > Dear Santa, > For Christmas this year I want my Lasombra to be the best voters, > stealth bleeders, pot combat, and everything else clan. I want to > shelve all my other cards and just play with one clan, the best clan. > I want them to be the best of the best. No other clan should hold a > candle to them. I can't believe that no-goodnik LSJ didn't right it > into the rules that if I play Lasombra then I automatically win. > > Thanks, > Noodleboy > > Why don't you try that. Heh. Most amusing. Why don't you try gobbling my chopper? > I do it all the time at zero stealth, so 1 stealth seems like gravy to > me. This surprises me immensely. But, metagames differ, I guess. > Thanks, I'll need it next weekend. You're welcome. :) > > With Henri? What are you smoking? > > The good stuff, makes you jealous doesn't it. Not if it prompts you to include Henri in a THA/QUI deck, no. Sounds like crack to me. Or recycled tyres. > Well, at least you're having fun. There is more fun to be had than with a 30 minute 1 trick pony. Trust me. > > I live there. No Henri/Thetmes dream team do I see. > > That is probably because Thetmes isn't a Lasombra <sar> He's not? n

> > Black Met/Signpost/Darkness Within/Double Shadow Strike/press > > mentioned as the best OBT/POT can do. Still loses to and S:CE... IE > - this is piss poor combat. It suffers from setup lag (equiping the > BM, Bm not necessary. Icing on the cake which pays off in the long run. prerange problems gotta play a TS/DW, then loses them if combat > ends.) Yes. SCE poses a problem for this deck, unless you start throwing in Thoughts Betrayed, which becomes problematic in terms of blood. However, that's a question of metagames. > BUT, why the Torn? you've got 2 presses, why not just more of the > same... it gains you more blood off the DW after all. So OBT is good, > POT can help, maybe. More of the same means using more Shadow Strikes. Blood becomes a problem if someone has burned your Path. Easier to TS and take them out in one round [hopefully] or if they survive, press to second and simply punch for 3 + 3. > > Black Met/Darkness Within/Shadow Step/Double Lid/press > > see above. except now we're burning even more blood before the S:CE > step. Burning blood? Darkness pays for itself at the very least. SS doesn't have to be used at OBT unless you're up against a very manuever deck. 2 straight maneuvers should be enough to get you to long. > this I just don't get. POT strikes sould be able to send people to > torpor in one good hit, Not always. Not at all. > then you have a press from IG, and hit again. Which means you've been hit by your opponent at least twice. Better for combat not to reach the second round, yes? > CEL additionals are good because they're a combat card. You don't > have to spend 2 blood and a blockable action to equip them. 1 blood with path. Permanent effects always surpass 1 time effects for efficiency. > The OBT here is gravy that brings up your capacity, and makes your combat deck weaker. In any POT heavy combat deck, a major problem that you must face is card attrition. 90 cards isn't alot when you're throwing down 4 or 5 cards per combat. A permanent additional strike and press would certainly help to alleviate this problem. Particularly if all of your 4 or 5 vamps have it. > Oh, if i need to I can add POT to OBT, which is ok without it. Or DOM > and OBT stealth to go and get that full torporized minion, for the > same blood cost. Yes, that one way to do it. I do it all the time. Straight POT/OBT rush is another way to do it, if we had the minions. > Yes it is, pity you will not join me. No thanks. Appreciate the invite though. > > See four deck possibilities above. I am certain there are others. > > You're certain? Good for you. <9th grade math teacher> Now show > you're proof. Well, something involving multiple shades, grapples at POT strikes springs to mind. Shadow Strikes and Well Aimed Cars? .... hmm, maybe not. :) </9th grade math teacher> I see the decks above as > proof that POT/OBT is a bastardized marriage at best, and likely to be > useless overall. This must be some new definition of "proof" and "useless" that Mr Oxford and I are unfamiliar with. Try 10th grade. They teach you a little more. > > Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually > > requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt. > > Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*. > > stealth... in an OBT deck. Where will we find that? Stealth in a RUSH deck is what we're talking about here. And that is a rare thing indeed. > dom... on the Lasombra! We'll never see... Nevermind. You are not comprehending. You are grasping at the threads. Look to the rope, my son. > > Alas. I am not interested in your "guesses". > > Then why are you having a discussion about this? Because you disagreed with me? However, in disagreeing with me, you're required to present stats or personal opinions, not guesses as to the motivations of other people. Your guesses as to the motivations of the design team do not interest me in the slightest. They are *irrelevant*. >Why didn't you just entitle this thread "Noodleboy vents his spleen about the lack of POT in the Lasombra" and let us all move along? Heh. That would've been pretty funny. However, that wasn't how the story began. Merely the detour it has taken on it's way to the place all dead threads go. > Why do you think pot is the lasombra's third discipline? That doesn't matter at all, my lad. Why I think someone did something is irrelevant. Hasn't Derek taught you that yet? > do you think LSJ has a personal vendetta against you? Erm... > Can you come up with a real answer to the > arugement above? Which argument would that be, my son? The argument that I'm really not interested in your opinion so I shouldn't have started a discussion with you [which I didn't], the arguement that this entire thread is the result of my paranoid delusion that LSJ wants to punish me somehow [which it isn't] or the argument that my chopper is just too damn much for you to gobble, so I should never have invited you to? [which, I must confess, I did]. > May your wishes be granted, but again probably not in G2-3 Alas then. > Oh, so I tell you I was joking, and I'm a fool... Fine I'll be the > wise fool, you be the jackass trying to convince the world that your > vision of reality is the only proper one. Jackass? That's that show with the guys crashing trolleys into incontinent old ladies, right? > <sigh> http://monger.vekn.org/ > > !ven FOR: 6,7,7,7,7,8,9,10 > Ravnos FOR: 5,6,6,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,11 > Ravnos CHI/FOR:6,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,11 Excellent. Now compare these figures to the POT spread on Clan Lasombra and give your lug a big ol' chug for proving my damn point. > > > Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat. > > > > "Somewhat"? What exactly constitutes "somewhat"? > > Umm... its ignored more than their other 2 disciplines? No foolin' ma? Hot damn, that's an incredible insight. "Each clan has a discipline that's ignored more than their other two disciplines." Yippee. Now, complete the following statement: The clan that has had it's third discipline ignored more than any other Clan in the game is.... Bonus points if you can name the discipline. > > > perfectly possiable to make a POT/pro storyline legal Lasombra deck > > > now. > > > > Without Francisco, whom you discounted as being too pricey? Pray tell, > > what would your crypt be? > > You keep saying this a lot. In the good tournement winning version of > the deck, I don't use Fran. > > 2x Lisette POT/pro > 2x Ilse POT/pro > 2x Henry Taylor POT/pro > 2x Tabitha Fisk pot/pro > 1x Agatha POT > 1x Hugo POT > 1x Paul DiCarlo pot > 1x Arnold Simpson pot Yes. And yet this is not a Lasombra deck. Nor is it tourney legal until the 17th of December, so how you're winning tourneys with it now is beyond me - unless they're those unoffical tourneys you play between you and a couple of buds? Or are you just making this up as you go along? > In the storyline version (now available) > > 3x Lisette > 2x Tabitha > 2x Cameron > 2x Hester Reed > 1x Ilse > 2x Henry You've sacrificed flexibility and a copy of starting reciever Ilse. You are happy with this? Is this a better crypt than what you had, or are you banging that square peg again? > No, I said that qui helps you as much as pot in a bleed deck. Then I > realized that qui IS helpful in a bleed deck, although one you > categorically denounce as stupid. Answer the question. Are you honestly going to include Deed the Heart's Desire in your Gratiano/Henri/Tobias deck? If you have any sense, no, of course you're not. So stop talking shite. > Yep. I still don't think that POT is helpful in an OBT combat deck. Well shit, looks like we disagree. I'd invite you to gobble my chopper, but...y'know.... > > > DOM/qui/OBT is three prevent people from blocking disciplines. with > > > Seduction/DeedTHD/BoN. Thetmes has dom/QUI/pot, Yazid has dom/QUI, > > > Ur-Shulgi has DOM/QUI. > > > > Indeed. And you're going to bother trying to squeeze henri in here? > > As another DOM/qui vamp. Yes I am. Especially with GtU at suprior. Heh. And who the hell are you going to GtU down to with Henri? Methinks you haven't thought this through. > > Indeed. And how exactly is Henri going to get to long range without > > cel? You going to bolt another discipline onto him, or are you going > > to play Fake Outs? > > Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn > fool. > > YOU spend the best part of a decade above going into how Great Shadow > Step and Darkness Within are. If I'm making an OBT/qui deck, I'm not > using them why? Ah, okay. So you're talking about making an OBT/qui deck. With ONE vampire who has both disciplines, one at inferior. 12 copies of him in the crypt, right? My apologies. I didn't realise your deck concepts had become so ...colourful. What's next? OBT/ANI? Wheeeee. noodleboy

In message <e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about: >Hmm, let's see. > >Black Met/Signpost/Darkness Within/Double Shadow Strike/press >Black Met/Darkness Within/Shadow Step/Double Lid/press >Black Met/Signpost/Grapple/Double Undead Strength/press >Black Met/Double Entomb/ Every single strategy mentioned here is based around Black Metamorphosis, a super-rare that almost nobody has any of, much less enough to build a deck with. I have purchased an awful lot of cards, and have yet to hold one in my hands. Now, even aside from that, let's have a look: #1 is elaborate and almost entirely based around Obtenebration. In addition, it costs a ridiculous amount of blood if you don't have the Path in play, and is very reliant on the Shadow Strikes. Because it's ranged damage, it's vulnerable to all the typical weaknesses of ranged combat, including getting shot with a .44 a whole bunch and never making it to the press step... or the ever-present S:CE. All things considered, if I'm going to rip off a Signpost, I'm going to come back to close with it and Grapple; it's just far more effective. Adding ineffective strategies to the game is probably a bad thing. #2 is much cheaper, but relies on ANOTHER super-rare named Shadow Step; it's a tossup whether more of these exist than Black Meta. Two super-rares in one combo? Who you kidding? I don't care how many YOU own, the average player will never be able to use this. Oh, and I'd like to note that the Sewer Lids only require pot, not POT, so you really don't even need the OBT/POT vampires that you're all up in arms over. #3 adds nothing to the game: POT/CEL already can do the "additional big strikes" thing. #4 doesn't even require Potence. And perhaps this is the real reason we aren't seeing OBT/POT vampires; OBT/POT combat doesn't add anything to the game. Big deal, they can set range, Grapple, and punch for lots. HOW many clans currently can Grapple and punch for lots? Don't need OBT for that. Multiple strikes with Black Meta? Already available with CEL - viva variety! (and the rare thing comes into play again). >> OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that >> you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step >> (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't >> lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the >> range that's wrong for your deck) > >See four deck possibilities above. I am certain there are others. Actually, only two, and both of them are pretty unimpressive. =/ Black Meta/Grapple/Signpost is much more solid, but we already have POT/additional strikes in the game. >> There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In >> the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so >> can Graverobbing, Amaranth.... > >Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually >requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt. >Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*. The Lasombra should win most bloodhunts, hands down. Massive titled vamp support; I've been tempted to make the Arms/Disarm/Munchie deck for a long time now. Grave Robbing is a bit of work to pull off, but its effect is HUGE when you can; a free vampire, generally a full one since Entombment doesn't do damage directly. -- Derek "From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of idiots." - unknown

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > The Giovanni have a much larger spread of POT across their mid to low > caps than the Lasombra. In a match-up between POT and obt/pot vamps, > all of the Obten cards you've described aside from Black Met are > nullified by an IG, leaving a match up between a POT vamp, and a pot > vamp with an additional strike. I know where my money would be. The > pot vamp will be in torpor before it ever sees the additional strike > phase. Assuming both are close range decks, yes. But the Giovanni don't have access to any maneuvers but Fake Out and Thrown Gate. Banjoko is a great vamp for Thoughts Betrayed/Shadow Step(inf)/Sewer Lid--make that two sewer lids with a Black Metamorphasis. He doesn't really need the TB against IG Giovanni, but what the heck, you might have a gate or lid, he can taste it back, and he's got it in the deck for S:CE. If you're playing mono POT, you can probably beat a Lasombra combat deck. But Giovanni combat versus Lasombra combat is a more even proposition.

"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote in message news:e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com... > > Yes the Giovanni have more POT across their mid to low caps but you > > should disregard Chas Tello Giovanni as a strong POT rush vamp due to > > his handicap. Your spread is 6,7,7,8,8,9,9,10,10,11 without Chas. > > You cannot possibly disregard Chas. He's an excellent rusher, despite > his disad. At the worst, you cost someone a Master they could have > played, potentially to your detriment. At best, you knocked someone's > fangs down their throat and tore their head off. Actually you can disregard him. Your prey isn't the only one to be able to toss a Master. Your predator quite possible could do it as well. > > And as to your opinion about a pot and a POT vampire going head to > > head, they will probably both end up in torpor. <snip accurate examples of why Pushing the Limit sees more play than Undead Strength.> > > The only monoclan POT deck I have ever seen work is the EuroBrujah > > Princes, and that is more of a functionality of the Prince title than > > of POT. Correct me if you have seen otherwise. > > Indeed I have. The grand-daddy of all POT rush decks "The Nosferatu > hate you" by Peter Bakija is a steamroller of POT destruction that has > spawned countless imitators [My own "Beastie Boys included]. It is the > quintessential POT deck, which pretty much taught me everything I know > about mono POT combat. > > It's achived at the Lasombra's site in it's various incarnations. > Check it out. Definitely worth a look. I have checked it out and for the most part it uses pot rather than POT vampires or at least very least uses them in equal proportions. > > Generally non-multi-rush deck archtype and large capacity vampires are > > incompatible (exception, see EuroBrujah). > > Exactly. This is precisely why the lasombra need a mid-point range of > POT vampires. > > > AFAIK, Peter's decks and most other pot decks use 4+ Disarms. I > > usually use 6-8 in my pot decks because it is a one card trump. > > The decks of peter's that i've seen don't use that many Disarms. 6-8 > is far too extreme in my opinion. I find even 3 clogging my hand in > "Beastie Boys". Sending vamps to torpor isn't a problem. having them > bounced right back out again is. hence why i play with more Pulled > Fangs than Disarms nowadays. You are misquoting me. I said that Peter's decks use 4. Check any of the pot rush decks of Peter's and you will find them. I use 6-8 and I find that they work great; especially if my victim doesn't burn the Disarm off with the 3 blood cost. > > FYI, a blocked graverob is the same as a rush. > > Yes. It's also a wasted card. It also spells the doom of the blocker > in a good rush deck. See my previous points about the "block me and > f*cking die" mentality. The pot equivalent of stealth is quite effective dispite your apparent scorn of it. > > You destroy your prey's minions then add them to your own and now you > > are creating a critical mass to thump your grandprey by having 4+ > > minions who are not weenies. > > 4+ minions who in all likelihood don't have any of your disciplines. > Thus, if your grandprey has any kind of decent combat, the minions > you've robbed wind up in torpor during their first 1 point bleed. Why would you be bleeding your grandprey? If you meant to say that once you have dispatched your prey and are working on your new prey, your former grand prey, then you should stick to what works. Again you should be treating your grand prey to more thumping before sending in the bleeders, but apparently that isn't very obvious to you. > Additionally, despite your assertions, the 5 or 6 turns it will > realistically take you to destroy and graverob all of your prey's > minions and then bleed him out of the game with massed 1 point bleeds > will see your grandprey probably oust his prey, and be halfway through > his next prey [you, in a 4 player]. Unless of course you want to start > rushing across table before you've even got your first oust to keep > your grandprey "in check", which means fighting a war on three fronts > [forwards, backwards and across table] and your almost inevitable > demise before your first vp. Strange, it seems to work pretty well. > > > Seductions would be problematic, given the capacity of your vamps and > > > the rarity of DOM. However, not impossible to do, particularly if you > > > recruit Francisco, which the original poster refused to do. > > > > Earth Control still works and the two together work nicely. > > Again, see my points about blood problems. But yes, pro stealth is the > best solution. > > Oh, so your a purist! I didn't realize that you had your blinders on. > <snip wailing about how cruel life is> > > Dear Santa, > > For Christmas this year I want my Lasombra to be the best voters, > > stealth bleeders, pot combat, and everything else clan. I want to > > shelve all my other cards and just play with one clan, the best clan. > > I want them to be the best of the best. No other clan should hold a > > candle to them. I can't believe that no-goodnik LSJ didn't right it > > into the rules that if I play Lasombra then I automatically win. > > > > Thanks, > > Noodleboy > > > > Why don't you try that. > > Heh. Most amusing. Why don't you try gobbling my chopper? Apparently you have some sort of fixation with turkeys and motorcycles. Happy Thanksgiving! > > I do it all the time at zero stealth, so 1 stealth seems like gravy to > > me. > > This surprises me immensely. But, metagames differ, I guess. > > > Thanks, I'll need it next weekend. > > You're welcome. :) > > > > With Henri? What are you smoking? > > > > The good stuff, makes you jealous doesn't it. > > Not if it prompts you to include Henri in a THA/QUI deck, no. Sounds > like crack to me. Or recycled tyres. Thau Qui Dom experimental deck seems to be quite a good place for him. -- [ quoted text not captured ]

> Every single strategy mentioned here is based around Black > Metamorphosis, a super-rare that almost nobody has any of, much less > enough to build a deck with. I have purchased an awful lot of cards, > and have yet to hold one in my hands. I own three. Just traded for a forth last night for a bunch of CE vampires. They are out there if you want them. At one point i owned six, and I don't consider myself a fanatical trader/collector at all. But, aside from that: > #1 is elaborate and almost entirely based around Obtenebration. In > addition, it costs a ridiculous amount of blood if you don't have the > Path in play, and is very reliant on the Shadow Strikes. Yes, you need a Path. Or a taste in hand. Not hard to achieve, surely? > Because it's ranged damage, it's vulnerable to all the typical weaknesses of ranged combat, including getting shot with a .44 a whole bunch and never making > it to the press step... or the ever-present S:CE. All things > considered, if I'm going to rip off a Signpost, I'm going to come back > to close with it and Grapple; it's just far more effective. Adding > ineffective strategies to the game is probably a bad thing. It's effectiveness depends entirely on the environment you're in, as with all decks. I could see it doing rather well. The point is, we'll never know unless the Lasombra vamps are given POT. > #2 is much cheaper, but relies on ANOTHER super-rare named Shadow Step; > it's a tossup whether more of these exist than Black Meta. Two > super-rares in one combo? Who you kidding? I don't care how many YOU > own, the average player will never be able to use this. Oh, and I'd > like to note that the Sewer Lids only require pot, not POT, so you > really don't even need the OBT/POT vampires that you're all up in arms > over. POT for the press, which you may not have, depending on the levels of Obten on the fictitious crypt. As for rarity, again, the Shadow Steps are out there if you want them. There are currently 17 for trade on the Succubus Club [not to mention 30 Black mets]. They are harder to get than most cards, granted. But impossible? Not by a long shot. But perhaps the "super-rarity" of these two Obten cards needs to be addressed, as has been suggested by others on other threads. > #3 adds nothing to the game: POT/CEL already can do the "additional big > strikes" thing. Hmm. "Adds nothing to the game." I don't agree. But let's say i do. By this rationale, what exactly did Tobias "add to the game"? > #4 doesn't even require Potence. As i said after all 4 strats, "add Decapitations if required". > And perhaps this is the real reason we aren't seeing OBT/POT vampires; > OBT/POT combat doesn't add anything to the game. Big deal, they can set > range, Grapple, and punch for lots. HOW many clans currently can > Grapple and punch for lots? Don't need OBT for that. Multiple strikes > with Black Meta? Already available with CEL - viva variety! (and the > rare thing comes into play again). Only one vampire currently can set range and punch for lots. Caliean. I think it would be a very big deal for an entire clan to be able to do it. > Actually, only two, and both of them are pretty unimpressive. =/ Indeed. Alas, I think otherwise. Point is, we won't know until we try, and at the moment we can't even begin to try. > >Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually > >requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt. > >Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*. > > The Lasombra should win most bloodhunts, hands down. Not in the PRO/DOM archetype they don't. Only one titled vampire there - Francisco. And the original poster didn't include him in the crypt. > Grave Robbing is a bit of work to pull off, but its effect is HUGE when > you can; a free vampire, generally a full one since Entombment doesn't > do damage directly. Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9 of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have their merits. noodleboy

On 26 Nov 2003 22:33:56 -0800, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote: >Yes. It's also a wasted card. It also spells the doom of the blocker >in a good rush deck. See my previous points about the "block me and >f*cking die" mentality. It's not wasted. It's a dual-use rush. Either it's a rush, and it doesn't matter who they block with b/c that's who they would've blocked the rush with anyway, or you gain control of a minion *for free*. I'm not sure what you're referring to in your other post, but I can't see how it supports GR being a wasted card slot. >4+ minions who in all likelihood don't have any of your disciplines. You're playing dominate; in all likelihood they do. >Additionally, despite your assertions, the 5 or 6 turns it will >realistically take you to destroy and graverob all of your prey's >minions and then bleed him out of the game with massed 1 point bleeds Why do they have to be bleeds for one? Can't this be bully-bleed? Nor do you need *all* your prey's minions. Bleeds get through sometimes even before your prey's ready region is a wasteland. >will see your grandprey probably oust his prey, and be halfway through >his next prey [you, in a 4 player]. Unless of course you want to start >rushing across table before you've even got your first oust to keep >your grandprey "in check", which means fighting a war on three fronts >[forwards, backwards and across table] and your almost inevitable >demise before your first vp. The closest personal experience I have to the deck we're talking about is Thetmes with dominate weenies. When playing that, yes, I have found myself going forward with my (often zero stealth) bleed game, and making surgical strikes around the table while doing so. Usually it's the predator or prey, but sometimes on the cusp of an oust, it becomes grand predator or prey. >This surprises me immensely. But, metagames differ, I guess. They certainly do. [ quoted text not captured ]

emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote: > > > Assuming both are close range decks, yes. But the Giovanni don't have > access to any maneuvers but Fake Out and Thrown Gate. Banjoko is a > great vamp for Thoughts Betrayed/Shadow Step(inf)/Sewer Lid--make that > two sewer lids with a Black Metamorphasis. He doesn't really need the > TB against IG Giovanni, but what the heck, you might have a gate or > lid, he can taste it back, and he's got it in the deck for S:CE. Ans assuming that the Lasombra player has been around for a few years, and has used moderate sum of money to his cards, he is likely to have zero Shadow Steps (I bought 2 or 3 boxes of Sabbat and have 2 of them, which do not give me very much options), so his maneuvering will be limited to Fake Out, Thrown Gate and to lesser extent Darkness Within and Eyes of the Night (and 2 last require OBT to get a maneuver). -Antero

In message <e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about: >> Every single strategy mentioned here is based around Black >> Metamorphosis, a super-rare that almost nobody has any of, much less >> enough to build a deck with. I have purchased an awful lot of cards, >> and have yet to hold one in my hands. > >I own three. Just traded for a forth last night for a bunch of CE >vampires. They are out there if you want them. At one point i owned >six, and I don't consider myself a fanatical trader/collector at all. >But, aside from that: What this doesn't address is how much the owners want for them. I am not willing to part with my testicles for that particular rare, but oddly it seems that everyone wants far more than they're actually worth. One of the reasons I never trade online, and rarely trade as-is. >> #1 is elaborate and almost entirely based around Obtenebration. In >> addition, it costs a ridiculous amount of blood if you don't have the >> Path in play, and is very reliant on the Shadow Strikes. > >Yes, you need a Path. Or a taste in hand. Not hard to achieve, surely? The Taste won't be effective if you can't actually pay for all the cards in the first place. And as far as the Path goes... We burn Paths around here, constantly. It's almost a mantra of sorts: "shoot the retainers, burn the Paths." Why? Because a deck using a Path is clearly using a lot of cards which cost blood, and removing that Path is going to seriously hurt the deck in question, as well as potentially cost that deck another pool to put the Path back in play... IF it has one in hand. The above decks don't really have a good solution to defending the Paths, unless you're playing intercept-combat with the Lasombra, which while not impossible to pull off is a complicated affair. >> Because it's ranged damage, it's vulnerable to all the typical weaknesses of ranged combat, including getting shot with a .44 a whole bunch and never making >> it to the press step... or the ever-present S:CE. All things >> considered, if I'm going to rip off a Signpost, I'm going to come back >> to close with it and Grapple; it's just far more effective. Adding >> ineffective strategies to the game is probably a bad thing. > >It's effectiveness depends entirely on the environment you're in, as >with all decks. I could see it doing rather well. The point is, we'll >never know unless the Lasombra vamps are given POT. I could see it failing miserably, actually. Lots of cards to set up, at least one action to get the Black Meta on in the first place (so you need some stealth as well since your combat just isn't very scary when you're only 'punching' for 3 at range)... and then very little guarantee that you'll consistently be effective with it, because of Fortitude, S:CE, etc. I know that at the GenCon qualifier, my predator was playing a Black Metamorphosis/Fortitude/Disarm deck. It torporized exactly one of my vampires, when I Rushed backwards once to nominally keep my end of a deal with his predator. (I used a 2-cap with inferior pot because I knew he had piles of Fortitude.) It bled me ... twice for 3 each. Then it was ousted. I wasn't impressed with Black Metamorphosis then, and I'm not likely to be any more impressed with it in the future. Neat card -- not the best use of an action, even when you ARE Lucita and have Freak Drive. >> #2 is much cheaper, but relies on ANOTHER super-rare named Shadow Step; >> it's a tossup whether more of these exist than Black Meta. Two >> super-rares in one combo? Who you kidding? I don't care how many YOU >> own, the average player will never be able to use this. Oh, and I'd >> like to note that the Sewer Lids only require pot, not POT, so you >> really don't even need the OBT/POT vampires that you're all up in arms >> over. > >POT for the press, which you may not have, depending on the levels of >Obten on the fictitious crypt. As for rarity, again, the Shadow Steps >are out there if you want them. There are currently 17 for trade on >the Succubus Club [not to mention 30 Black mets]. Press combat has historically been shown to stink on ice. Pressing with mandatory-range combat (Lids) generally stinks even worse unless you're just chock full of maneuvers, and Shadow Steps are -expensive- and not affected by the Path. It's been getting a lot of support lately, but after throwing two Lids at someone, you should really have them in torpor or close enough that you have their attention -- without needing to worry about the "I fifth self" action anymore, it's not as critical to completely erase an 8-cap on the first turn. I'd much rather run the deck as one action for Black Meta, Freak Drive, then Darkness Within/Lid/Lid every time, with Darksight/Eyes of the Night to give me some other options. I'd avoid pressing, to save on card space and getting-dead-in-round-2. >They are harder to get than most cards, granted. But impossible? Not >by a long shot. But perhaps the "super-rarity" of these two Obten >cards needs to be addressed, as has been suggested by others on other >threads. I don't think we need Shadow Step in the game, personally; limiting the effect to one vampire and one clan (Gargoyles) is fine by me. "Set range to close, crush" just really doesn't add anything; the Nosferatu have been able to do that -forever- with Drawing out the Beast. >> #3 adds nothing to the game: POT/CEL already can do the "additional big >> strikes" thing. > >Hmm. "Adds nothing to the game." I don't agree. But let's say i do. By >this rationale, what exactly did Tobias "add to the game"? He added a 7-cap with all the in-clans, something the Lasombra have desperately needed for a long time. While he did get inferior pot, the superior PRE more than makes up for it -- previously, the only Lasombra with PRE were ridiculously huge vamps, and while you could go fetch Jessica or Sela, they didn't have the advantage of the Lasombra clan cards. >> #4 doesn't even require Potence. > >As i said after all 4 strats, "add Decapitations if required". And blow 2 more blood out the window after spending HOW much? >> And perhaps this is the real reason we aren't seeing OBT/POT vampires; >> OBT/POT combat doesn't add anything to the game. Big deal, they can set >> range, Grapple, and punch for lots. HOW many clans currently can >> Grapple and punch for lots? Don't need OBT for that. Multiple strikes >> with Black Meta? Already available with CEL - viva variety! (and the >> rare thing comes into play again). > >Only one vampire currently can set range and punch for lots. Caliean. >I think it would be a very big deal for an entire clan to be able to >do it. I agree with Norm's view here -- the Lasombra are already excellent voters and bleeders. They don't need to be excellent fighters too; we've already got plenty of bruise-and-vote (Nossies) and bruise-and-bleed (EuroBrujah, several others) clans. >> Actually, only two, and both of them are pretty unimpressive. =/ > >Indeed. Alas, I think otherwise. Point is, we won't know until we try, >and at the moment we can't even begin to try. I don't personally see a reason to even start walking down that road, myself. So your favourite clan can't fight with POT. So? They can fight in several other ways. Again, viva la varietie! Which reminds me: The Toreador are the answer to your question in another thread. No vampire with all three in-clans at superior below a 9-cap, and only three vampires with AUS CEL below a 9-cap... two in group 1, one in group 3. For a clan that seems almost DESIGNED to be intercept combat, they really can't do a very good job of it at all. >> >Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually >> >requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt. >> >Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*. >> >> The Lasombra should win most bloodhunts, hands down. > >Not in the PRO/DOM archetype they don't. Only one titled vampire there >- Francisco. And the original poster didn't include him in the crypt. Cardinal Benediction has been available to the Lasombra for many, many moons now, though. I don't see how any Lasombra deck worth its salt couldn't arrange to acquire vote lock to some degree prior to committing Amaranth. >> Grave Robbing is a bit of work to pull off, but its effect is HUGE when >> you can; a free vampire, generally a full one since Entombment doesn't >> do damage directly. > >Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9 >of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the >original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have >their merits. Yeah. Grave Robbing's number one merit: it ain't Decapitate. [ quoted text not captured ]

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > Excellent. Now compare these figures to the POT spread on Clan > Lasombra and give your lug a big ol' chug for proving my damn point. > > > > > Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat. > > > > > > "Somewhat"? What exactly constitutes "somewhat"? > > > > Umm... its ignored more than their other 2 disciplines? > > No foolin' ma? Hot damn, that's an incredible insight. "Each clan has > a discipline that's ignored more than their other two disciplines." > Yippee. > > Now, complete the following statement: > > The clan that has had it's third discipline ignored more than any > other Clan in the game is.... > > Bonus points if you can name the discipline. I don't know the final answer yet, but it's not Lasombra and Potence.... Some clans with less coverage: Assamites with obf, Brujah with pre, Ravnos with ani... and there may be more, but I've got to complete my spreadsheet first, then. -- Tobias Deventer

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:41:02 -0500, David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled: >On 26 Nov 2003 22:33:56 -0800, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) >wrote: > >>Yes. It's also a wasted card. It also spells the doom of the blocker >>in a good rush deck. See my previous points about the "block me and >>f*cking die" mentality. > >It's not wasted. It's a dual-use rush. Either it's a rush, and it >doesn't matter who they block with b/c that's who they would've >blocked the rush with anyway, or you gain control of a minion *for >free*. I'm not sure what you're referring to in your other post, but >I can't see how it supports GR being a wasted card slot. I've had problems where instead of drawing a rush early on, i draw a graverobbing. and there's no one in torpor yet. merely bad luck? perhaps. but i'd rather have a heck of a lot less graverobbings after that run of problems... but that's just one anecdote to throw on the communal bonfire. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > I agree with you, despite the 2nd place for Ravnos the year Lasombra > won the Stroyline tourney. But we both know this isn't the point I'm > making. I'm saying there is no clan in the game that's had one of it's > 3 IC disciplines so thoroughly ignored as the Lasombra have had > Potence. > > This has been my gripe for years. It still hasn't been addressed. To > me, it seems a gaping hole that needs filling long before we need > another "born to bleed" vamp like Henri, or another voter like Tobias. > yes, this could be a problem for a lasombra combat deck (i'm trying right now to build one with very few rare cards and only 2 entombment), but in the end i think is better for a clan to have only one discipline at inferior throughout (is this word correct?) the cript. even if could be clumsy put in a deck a few master discipline only of potence it's less clumsy than stack masters discipline of various disciplines. so until WW designers don't became all spudoratly (is this word correct?) pro-lasombra and build at least 3 vamp, 6 or 7 caps, with all the in clans superior, this could be a good deal for OBT DOM POT combat Andrea

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:21:18 +1100, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote: >I've had problems where instead of drawing a rush early on, i draw a >graverobbing. and there's no one in torpor yet. merely bad luck? >perhaps. but i'd rather have a heck of a lot less graverobbings after >that run of problems... Dunno, but there's not *that* many Graverobbings in mine. Four out of eighty. I'm not looking to steal every vampire on the table wholesale, I just figure getting even one off is good. But that's not your average Assamatie deck, either; it will actually bleed the crap out of you, so answering the Blood Curse problem is much less necessary. If busting skulls was my main path to victory, and I had the disciplines, I'd go up to eight graverobbings and about sixteen rushes (and yeah, that's pretty much every action the deck can afford). [ quoted text not captured ]

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com>... > > Every single strategy mentioned here is based around Black > > Metamorphosis, a super-rare that almost nobody has any of, much less > > enough to build a deck with. I have purchased an awful lot of cards, > > and have yet to hold one in my hands. > > I own three. Just traded for a forth last night for a bunch of CE > vampires. They are out there if you want them. At one point i owned > six, and I don't consider myself a fanatical trader/collector at all. > But, aside from that: oddly, I do own a bunch of these cards... perhaps why I think the strategy is pants. <snip stuff Derek answered better than I can.> > Hmm. "Adds nothing to the game." I don't agree. But let's say i do. By > this rationale, what exactly did Tobias "add to the game"? A 7 cap in clan lasombra. The only clan that didn't have one. Who was a nice addition to the clan in general and several specific decks in particular. > > #4 doesn't even require Potence. > > As i said after all 4 strats, "add Decapitations if required". Or Graverobbing. After all then you could play stealth to a target, kill it, untap and stealth steal it. A viable Lucita deck. > > The Lasombra should win most bloodhunts, hands down. > > Not in the PRO/DOM archetype they don't. Only one titled vampire there > - Francisco. And the original poster didn't include him in the crypt. That's because the original poster hits people for 7 AGG. Or if that wouldn't kill them, he punches for 7, presses from IG, IG's again and hits them for 6 AGG. There is no need to win blood hunts when the vamps are burned outright. > > Grave Robbing is a bit of work to pull off, but its effect is HUGE when > > you can; a free vampire, generally a full one since Entombment doesn't > > do damage directly. > > Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9 > of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the > original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have > their merits. Both cost 2 blood, one kills a vamp, one gets you that vamp. one is only playable in combat, one can be used as an action that might even get you into another combat (which is always good.) Decapitate is for POT decks to kill things going to torpor that they can't let sit around to be rescued. Cameron, more later.

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 22:27:18 -0500, David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled: >On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:21:18 +1100, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> [ quoted text not captured ] I'd be interested in a decklist, if it hasn't been posted somewhere already. I don't own enough Freak Drives for a multi-rush deck, and i'm keen to get something with a strong assamite flavour to actually, you know, get a vp or two. (my current is a Diversion deck..which works well enough in combat, but doesn't do that ousting thing very well). [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > I'd be interested in a decklist, if it hasn't been posted somewhere > already. I don't own enough Freak Drives for a multi-rush deck, and > i'm keen to get something with a strong assamite flavour to actually, > you know, get a vp or two. (my current is a Diversion deck..which > works well enough in combat, but doesn't do that ousting thing very > well). Here you go: http://www.thepathofblood.com/displaydeck.php?deckid=73 A few cards are metagame-specific. The Diseases are in there because I frequently play against weenie Forititude/Trap/UP *and* CEL/pot. They could be four other combat cards of your choice, but I like actually using Disease for a change. Second, the two skill cards are included because I'm in a capacity arms-race with various Obeying IC's. If you don't think that's an issue, there are definitely better uses for those two master slots (although the press off the grapple is damn useful, DOM is less so). [ quoted text not captured ]

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<3FCB5C82...@duke.edu>... > Here you go: http://www.thepathofblood.com/displaydeck.php?deckid=73 > > Second, the two skill cards are included > because I'm in a capacity arms-race with various Obeying IC's. If you > don't think that's an issue, there are definitely better uses for those > two master slots (although the press off the grapple is damn useful, DOM > is less so). DOM is great for Graverobbing and Deflecting. You should put a second DOM in there for one of your nerds. ;)

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 10:21:38 -0500, David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled: >salem wrote: > >> I'd be interested in a decklist, if it hasn't been posted somewhere >> already. I don't own enough Freak Drives for a multi-rush deck, and >> i'm keen to get something with a strong assamite flavour to actually, >> you know, get a vp or two. (my current is a Diversion deck..which >> works well enough in combat, but doesn't do that ousting thing very >> well). > >Here you go: http://www.thepathofblood.com/displaydeck.php?deckid=73 > >A few cards are metagame-specific. The Diseases are in there because I >frequently play against weenie Forititude/Trap/UP *and* CEL/pot. They >could be four other combat cards of your choice, but I like actually >using Disease for a change. I like disease. and it's a little unexpected. :) > Second, the two skill cards are included >because I'm in a capacity arms-race with various Obeying IC's. If you >don't think that's an issue, there are definitely better uses for those >two master slots (although the press off the grapple is damn useful, DOM >is less so). so...what would you recommend for those of us who don't own any Provisions, and don't have any spare Shadow Feint (and i even traded my two Silence of Deaths away last year...stupid!)? I could try Gemini's Mirror as a poor-man's Shadow Feint... [ quoted text not captured ]

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<3FC4C35E...@duke.edu>... > XZealot wrote: > > > What was that deck supposed to do anyway? > > Brinksmanship. Don't recall if I ever got a Harbinger out, what with > all the bleedings and the beatings and the stealings. > > > I can't wait. Do you have a place to crash? I have room to spare. > > Neither can I. This year's GenCon was no Week of Nightmares, at least > not for me. This weekend, with everyone staying in the same place, > should be a lot closer to it. > > You and I are splitting a room, as per the email I got this morning. Watch out, Norm. Cherryholmes hogs the sheets. ;-) (Stephanie told me, you perv! Get your mind out of the gutter, sheesh!) DaveZ Atom Weaver

> Actually you can disregard him. Your prey isn't the only one to be able to > toss a Master. Your predator quite possible could do it as well. So, as I said: at the worst, you cost someone a Master they could have played, potentially to your detriment. At best, you knocked someone's fangs down their throat and tore their head off. > I have checked it out and for the most part it uses pot rather than POT > vampires or at least very least uses them in equal proportions. It's a 50/50 split. I'd call it a POT deck. > You are misquoting me. I said that Peter's decks use 4. Not misquoting. Note the full stops. You said 4+. I've only ever seen versions with 4. Granted, I haven't seen every deck he's ever made. i was talking about Nos hate You variants. > Check any of the pot rush decks of Peter's and you will find them. I use 6-8 and I find that they work great; especially if my victim doesn't burn the Disarm off with the 3 blood cost. I found that they clogged my hand, and did nothing to stop the vamps getting rescued as soon as you knocked them down. I find Pulled Fangs works much better. > The pot equivalent of stealth is quite effective dispite your apparent scorn > of it. Nothing "apparant"about it. I scorn it. In my experience, if you play "block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a hell of a lot more than you win. > Why would you be bleeding your grandprey? It's what happens when you oust your prey. > If you meant to say that once you > have dispatched your prey and are working on your new prey, your former > grand prey, then you should stick to what works. Again you should be > treating your grand prey to more thumping before sending in the bleeders, > but apparently that isn't very obvious to you. Why don't you read what I wrote, genius? I said that by the time you thump hell out of all your prey's vamps, knock them all into torpor, graverob them and bleed your prey out 1 pool at a time, your grandprey [yes, the guy who will soon become you prey] has had 6 or 7 turns of free reign. Any deck worth it's salt which is given 6 or 7 turns with no predator will almost certainly win the table. Capice? > Apparently you have some sort of fixation with turkeys and motorcycles. > Happy Thanksgiving! Thank you. No teeth please. > > Not if it prompts you to include Henri in a THA/QUI deck, no. Sounds > > like crack to me. Or recycled tyres. > > Thau Qui Dom experimental deck seems to be quite a good place for him. Let me know when you win a tourney with it. Until then, keep on smoking. n

> What this doesn't address is how much the owners want for them. I am > not willing to part with my testicles for that particular rare, but > oddly it seems that everyone wants far more than they're actually worth. Again, I traded for another one a few days ago. i paid in CE vampires. Hardly testicles. > The Taste won't be effective if you can't actually pay for all the cards > in the first place. True. You'd have to avoid backing yourself into that corner. I guess that comes down to the skill of the pilot. > And as far as the Path goes... We burn Paths around here, constantly. > It's almost a mantra of sorts: "shoot the retainers, burn the Paths." > Why? Because a deck using a Path is clearly using a lot of cards which > cost blood, and removing that Path is going to seriously hurt the deck > in question, as well as potentially cost that deck another pool to put > the Path back in play... IF it has one in hand. Said mantra doesn't seem to apply around here. Don't ask me why, but Paths almost never get burned. It's an oddity to be sure. I haven't seen one burned in a long while. [shrug]. Can't explain it. > I could see it failing miserably, actually. Again, a moot discussion until it's actually TRIED, which is currently impossible. <snip anecdotes> > Press combat has historically been shown to stink on ice. This is not "press combat". This is "it's good to have a press if you need it" combat. If you don't need it, groovy. > Pressing with mandatory-range combat (Lids) generally stinks even worse unless you're just chock full of maneuvers, and Shadow Steps are -expensive- and not affected by the Path. See your points below about "being in torpor or close enough". If they're "close enough" to dead, you might not need to manuever in the second round. Two slaps with the BM could/should be enough. But again, a moot point until it's actually TRIED, which is currently impossible. > It's been getting a lot of support lately, but after throwing two Lids > at someone, you should really have them in torpor or close enough that > you have their attention -- without needing to worry about the "I fifth > self" action anymore, it's not as critical to completely erase an 8-cap > on the first turn. Indeed. However, you can't rely upon those strikes landing, your opponent not dodging, Skinning, etc. Having a press, IF you need it, can never hurt. > I don't think we need Shadow Step in the game, personally; limiting the > effect to one vampire and one clan (Gargoyles) is fine by me. Alas, the card already exists. Not reprinting it simply gives an advantage to those who are wealthy/savvy/lucky enough to own them already - a small group by your own admission. This is not equitable by any stretch of the imagination. The card should either be banned or reprinted, yes? > "Set range to close, crush" just really doesn't add anything; the > Nosferatu have been able to do that -forever- with Drawing out the > Beast. Indeed. And it is a bad thing for another Clan to be able to do it how? > He added a 7-cap with all the in-clans, something the Lasombra have > desperately needed for a long time. Why? For CB? > While he did get inferior pot, the > superior PRE more than makes up for it -- previously, the only Lasombra > with PRE were ridiculously huge vamps, and while you could go fetch > Jessica or Sela, they didn't have the advantage of the Lasombra clan > cards. So, he made it easier for Lasombra to vote. Something they could already do with ease, and something a number of other Clans have been able to do forever. Your previous "Nosferatu-Drawing out the beast" example as an arguement against Shadow Step seems to contradict to your arguement about Tobias' usefulness. > And blow 2 more blood out the window after spending HOW much? 1 with a Path. 2 without. Unless you were unlucky and blew an Entomb on a dodging mark, which is possible. > I agree with Norm's view here -- the Lasombra are already excellent > voters and bleeders. They don't need to be excellent fighters too; > we've already got plenty of bruise-and-vote (Nossies) and > bruise-and-bleed (EuroBrujah, several others) clans. "Need"? Again, did we "need" Tobias? Moreover, did we "need" Quietus? I think we need a couple of POT vamps more. > I don't personally see a reason to even start walking down that road, > myself. So your favourite clan can't fight with POT. So? So, it's illogical that their third discipline is ignored when all other clans [except the Tori's apparently] get plenty of three-way loving. > Which reminds me: The Toreador are the answer to your question in > another thread. No vampire with all three in-clans at superior below a > 9-cap, and only three vampires with AUS CEL below a 9-cap... two in > group 1, one in group 3. They sound on par with the Lasombra unless I'm missing something? > Cardinal Benediction has been available to the Lasombra for many, many > moons now, though. I don't see how any Lasombra deck worth its salt > couldn't arrange to acquire vote lock to some degree prior to committing > Amaranth. Unless you're counting on sticking in PRE vote mods simply for Francisco, there is no way you can guarantee vote lock with a Lasombra POT/pro variant. If you try to acquire this vote lock, that's more cards in your deck getting in the way of rush. More cards you're going to draw when you need that Grapple or Claw instead. > >Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9 > >of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the > >original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have > >their merits. > > Yeah. Grave Robbing's number one merit: it ain't Decapitate. Indeed. That door, she swings both ways. noodleboy

noodleboy wrote: > > The pot equivalent of stealth is quite effective dispite your apparent scorn > > of it. > > Nothing "apparant"about it. I scorn it. In my experience, if you play > "block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If > you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a > hell of a lot more than you win. But you also admit you play with people who've managed not to clue in to the fact that Path's are lynchpin cards. Your anecdotes will need to be twice as detailed as before, for me to find them persuasive. IMO, in an environment peopled with *good* players who are playing to win, they will rightly decide many times that a bleed for two or three just isn't worth the consequences of stopping. If you have to spread your cards around everybody's big schlong that they've whipped out on the table, then maybe bully-bleed isn't such a good strategy. Lots of strategies fall over when your opponents decide winning is secondary. And yeah, that's a slam on your metagame, but c'mon man..... *paths*???!?? > Why don't you read what I wrote, genius? I said that by the time you > thump hell out of all your prey's vamps, knock them all into torpor, > graverob them and bleed your prey out 1 pool at a time, your grandprey > [yes, the guy who will soon become you prey] has had 6 or 7 turns of > free reign. I still don't get why you have to knock *all* your prey's vampires into torpor. Is it because you people will gladly go down fists a flying, and to hell with winning as long as the beatings are good? Or is it that your hypothetical prey will never tap one of his minions to take an action, so you must remove all of them to not be blocked? And where are you minions disappearing to, then? Won't knocking a few down give you numerical superiority? And why bleeds for one? Haven't we established that there's Dominate going on here? Seriously, I've only kept a lazy eye on this thread. Have I missed something? > Any deck worth it's salt which is given 6 or 7 turns with no predator > will almost certainly win the table. Capice? Totally agree. But why is that the case here, once you get over the hyperbolic use of "all"? Instead, he loses "some" minions and takes "some" bleed, while continuing to do "some" stuff to his prey. > > Thau Qui Dom experimental deck seems to be quite a good place for him. > > Let me know when you win a tourney with it. Until then, keep on > smoking. Well, the Thau/Qui part is easy to get. Mainly due to your potence lament, I've been thinking more about skill cards lately, and how they aren't so bad. Maybe I'll give that deck a go. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > > Press combat has historically been shown to stink on ice. But not weenie for/trap/up, right? That doesn't stink, because it iterates itself around the S:CE hole. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jeff Kuta wrote: > DOM is great for Graverobbing and Deflecting. You should put a second > DOM in there for one of your nerds. ;) If I don't think I need the extra capacity on Thetmes, that's what I do with the single one, preferrably on one of the three caps. [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > so...what would you recommend for those of us who don't own any > Provisions, and don't have any spare Shadow Feint (and i even traded > my two Silence of Deaths away last year...stupid!)? > I could try Gemini's Mirror as a poor-man's Shadow Feint... That's tough. I'd say SF and PoS are both key cards, the latter moreso than the former. I recommend you proxy them for casual play, and bum them off friends for tournaments. I mean, it's not like anyone you know is likely going to be using them for a tournament, right? ;) I think you could split the difference of the SF's into 2 more Pursuits and 2 more Absorb the Minds. It doesn't replicate the effect or anything, but those are the two cards I've noticed wishing I had more of. [ quoted text not captured ]

nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) wrote in message news:<e72ec49.03120...@posting.google.com>... > > Actually you can disregard him. Your prey isn't the only one to be able to > > toss a Master. Your predator quite possible could do it as well. > > So, as I said: at the worst, you cost someone a Master they could have > played, potentially to your detriment. At best, you knocked someone's > fangs down their throat and tore their head off. Generally, you will flush a master far more often than you will beat down a key vampire. > Not misquoting. Note the full stops. > > You said 4+. I've only ever seen versions with 4. Granted, I haven't > seen every deck he's ever made. i was talking about Nos hate You > variants. > > > Check any of the pot rush decks of Peter's and you will find them. I use 6-8 and I find that they work great; especially if my victim doesn't burn the Disarm off with the 3 blood cost. > > I found that they clogged my hand, and did nothing to stop the vamps > getting rescued as soon as you knocked them down. I find Pulled Fangs > works much better. Your mileage may vary. Pulled Fangs is a good card as well, but certainly no replacement for a Disarm. > > The pot equivalent of stealth is quite effective dispite your apparent scorn > > of it. > > Nothing "apparant"about it. I scorn it. In my experience, if you play > "block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If > you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a > hell of a lot more than you win. Since you only should win about 20% of the time on average, then your point of losing more than winning really has nothing to do with the strategy of potence "stealth". > > Why would you be bleeding your grandprey? > > It's what happens when you oust your prey. > > > If you meant to say that once you > > have dispatched your prey and are working on your new prey, your former > > grand prey, then you should stick to what works. Again you should be > > treating your grand prey to more thumping before sending in the bleeders, > > but apparently that isn't very obvious to you. > > Why don't you read what I wrote, genius? Why don't you learn how to write, Shakespeare? I said that by the time you > thump hell out of all your prey's vamps, knock them all into torpor, > graverob them and bleed your prey out 1 pool at a time, your grandprey > [yes, the guy who will soon become you prey] has had 6 or 7 turns of > free reign. If it takes you 6 or 7 turns after have planted and graverobbed all of your prey's vampires, then you probably are doing something wrong. You should figure 2-3 turns tops. > Any deck worth it's salt which is given 6 or 7 turns with no predator > will almost certainly win the table. Capice? Again 6-7 turns is a long time, you should probably work on your deck. > > Apparently you have some sort of fixation with turkeys and motorcycles. > > Happy Thanksgiving! > > Thank you. No teeth please. I don't swing that way, but if you do, then I am sure this is not the newsgroup to talk about it. Perhaps you should stop soliciting oral sex from men and try dating. It might help you overcome your fixations. > > > Not if it prompts you to include Henri in a THA/QUI deck, no. Sounds > > > like crack to me. Or recycled tyres. > > > > Thau Qui Dom experimental deck seems to be quite a good place for him. > > Let me know when you win a tourney with it. Until then, keep on > smoking. Oh, so that is the end all and be all of deck design, Tournament Champion. I can see you are a real innovator. So is that how you play? Just copying other people's decks from the tournament archives. You are such a munchkin. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:16:46 -0500, David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled: >salem wrote: > >> so...what would you recommend for those of us who don't own any >> Provisions, and don't have any spare Shadow Feint (and i even traded >> my two Silence of Deaths away last year...stupid!)? >> I could try Gemini's Mirror as a poor-man's Shadow Feint... > >That's tough. I'd say SF and PoS are both key cards, the latter moreso >than the former. I recommend you proxy them for casual play, Boo! hiss!! I despise proxies. even in casual play. but that's just me. maybe i could pop in the odd Ritual of the Bitter rose, so my 'nerds' can diablerise and fill up the Thet-meister. >and bum >them off friends for tournaments. I mean, it's not like anyone you know >is likely going to be using them for a tournament, right? ;) well, no, not too likely. :) >I think you could split the difference of the SF's into 2 more Pursuits >and 2 more Absorb the Minds. It doesn't replicate the effect or >anything, but those are the two cards I've noticed wishing I had more >of. fair enough. now, to find time to build this thing....and some spare sleeves.... too many decks! [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Nothing "apparant"about it. I scorn it. In my experience, if you play > > "block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If > > you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a > > hell of a lot more than you win. > > But you also admit you play with people who've managed not to clue in to > the fact that Path's are lynchpin cards. Your anecdotes will need to be > twice as detailed as before, for me to find them persuasive. Leaving my playgroup aside for a moment, do you honestly subscribe to the theory that you can fight your prey, your predator and the guy across the table with a Rush deck, and still have any realistic chance of winning? > IMO, in an environment peopled with *good* players who are playing to win, they will rightly decide many times that a bleed for two or three just isn't > worth the consequences of stopping. Correct. I've said that previously. However, we [original poster and I] were talking about graverobbings in regards to the "block me and die" mentality. I orginally asked How the poster intended to get the GR through without stealth. He answered [and I am paraphrasing here] by knocking anyone who tried to block into torpor. Hence, the conversation [d]evolved into the consequences of what happens when you play with that kind of "destroy all" mentality - at least in my experience. > If you have to spread your cards > around everybody's big schlong that they've whipped out on the table, > then maybe bully-bleed isn't such a good strategy. Lots of strategies > fall over when your opponents decide winning is secondary. > > And yeah, that's a slam on your metagame, but c'mon man..... > *paths*???!?? I've played in many metagames all over this country, and still find it a truism. I can't really explain it. I realise it's illogical, even though I sometimes find myself ignoring a Path in favour of an action i see as more critical. Best example I can give of the top of my head was at the Adelaide qualifier this year, where I was playing a Baltimore Purge deck [archived on Salem's site if you want a gander]. It was incredibly pricey in terms of the Obten stealth, so Paths were a neccesity. I pulled one out very early in the final, and both my prey and predator spent the rest of the game arguing about who was going to burn it. My prey felt he had better things to do [ie, oust his prey. He was playing a Malk S/B deck] and my predator tried maybe twice to do it [playing Tzimisce] before going back to tooling up and building his wall - I suppose he saw his Intercept permanents as more important to the overall game, ie, blocking my Purges was more important than burning my Path. It seems to me that in high stress games like tourneys, where every action seems to count for more, people almost always have "something better to do" than burn a Path. This may be an oddity in other games. However, it's true in the three Oz metagames that i've played in. [shrug] Path of Evil Revalations aside of course. ;) > I still don't get why you have to knock *all* your prey's vampires into > torpor. See above. His plan, not mine. > And why bleeds for one? Haven't we established that there's Dominate > going on here? Seriously, I've only kept a lazy eye on this thread. > Have I missed something? Dom bleed wasn't mentioned as part of the plan. Methinks a solid 7agg combat deck with graverobbings would have a hard time fitting any decent amount of Dom bleed into the mix too, but granted, I haven't built the deck. > Well, the Thau/Qui part is easy to get. Mainly due to your potence > lament, I've been thinking more about skill cards lately, and how they > aren't so bad. Maybe I'll give that deck a go. Let me know how it flies, and whether Henri makes the final cut and contributes anything other than ballast. I have *sincere* doubts considering his lack of thau, but hey, prove me wrong. noods

nood...@iprimus.com.au (Jason) wrote in message news:<fc3759e5.03120...@posting.google.com>... > > > Nothing "apparant"about it. I scorn it. In my experience, if you play > > > "block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If > > > you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a > > > hell of a lot more than you win. Note: I fail to see how Bruise and X ends up fighting the whole table. Infact it's the most uni-directional of all the combat archetypes. (Bruise and Block can at least block both ways.) "Combat Stealth" is the simple proposition that the possiable consequences of my current action (an as thusfar unmodified bleed, a Graverobbing, a vote, an equip action, a rush at a particular vampire) is not worth blocking if blocking means losing the vampire the does so. You're giving your prey a chance to decide if defence (stopping my action) is more important than offense (keeping Ozmo.) A smart prey will generally go forward faster to out run the combat/bleed deck. > > But you also admit you play with people who've managed not to clue in to > > the fact that Path's are lynchpin cards. Your anecdotes will need to be > > twice as detailed as before, for me to find them persuasive. > > Leaving my playgroup aside for a moment, do you honestly subscribe to > the theory that you can fight your prey, your predator and the guy > across the table with a Rush deck, and still have any realistic chance > of winning? Eventually you have to rush everyone whom you intend to take a VP from. You don't have to do it all at once. First you fight your prey, then dangerous minions of your predator, then your next prey, etc. until you run out of cards or preys. You don't fight them all at once, and someone getting a VP or two is ok, as long as you get the last 3. You should be able to get rid of a strong prey by killing off their vampires. At that point it doesn't matter that Hesha has 4 blood dolls and is the anarch baron of LA. The little shit is D E D dead. > > IMO, in an environment peopled with *good* players who are playing to win, they will rightly decide many times that a bleed for two or three just isn't > > worth the consequences of stopping. > > Correct. I've said that previously. However, we [original poster and > I] were talking about graverobbings in regards to the "block me and > die" mentality. I orginally asked How the poster intended to get the > GR through without stealth. He answered [and I am paraphrasing here] > by knocking anyone who tried to block into torpor. Hence, the > conversation [d]evolved into the consequences of what happens when you > play with that kind of "destroy all" mentality - at least in my > experience. IIRC you said: >Stealth in a RUSH deck is what we're talking about here. And that is a >rare thing indeed. if it's a rush deck, then getting into another combat is all it needs to do. If it's not a rush deck then it may have some stealth. We got into this b/c you said people will block graverobs... It was then pointed out by several posters that this was AOK, as you get to kill another vampire who you can then graverob. Hence, "Combat Stealth." <snip paths> > > I still don't get why you have to knock *all* your prey's vampires into > > torpor. > > See above. His plan, not mine. No, you're misunderstanding the plan again. The threat of knocking vamps into torpor is how the deck works. IF your prey wants to block, yes you have to kill the blocker. Eventually they get to a point where blocking loses them the ability to go forward. At that point they (if they're smart) will not block and keep their minions available to try to get a VP. > > And why bleeds for one? Haven't we established that there's Dominate > > going on here? Seriously, I've only kept a lazy eye on this thread. > > Have I missed something? > > Dom bleed wasn't mentioned as part of the plan. Methinks a solid 7agg > combat deck with graverobbings would have a hard time fitting any > decent amount of Dom bleed into the mix too, but granted, I haven't > built the deck. And here you're misunderstanding the decks that have been bandied about. For you're reference they are: POT/PRO combat, burns minions outright, no need for Decapitate, or GR, or anything. Wins in combat deck land, and fun to play against big vampires. A bit slow these days. OBT/DOM combat, sends minions to torpor, then graverobs them, FULL. Plenty of space for DOM bleeds/transfer enhancements. Cameron

guenh...@mindspring.com (atomweaver) wrote in message news:<4c6f3f3e.03120...@posting.google.com>... > David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<3FC4C35E...@duke.edu>... > > XZealot wrote: > > > > > What was that deck supposed to do anyway? > > > > Brinksmanship. Don't recall if I ever got a Harbinger out, what with > > all the bleedings and the beatings and the stealings. > > > > > I can't wait. Do you have a place to crash? I have room to spare. > > > > Neither can I. This year's GenCon was no Week of Nightmares, at least > > not for me. This weekend, with everyone staying in the same place, > > should be a lot closer to it. > > > > You and I are splitting a room, as per the email I got this morning. > > Watch out, Norm. Cherryholmes hogs the sheets. ;-) I am not a smuggler I am a snuggler.. ;) Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

In message <e72ec49.03120...@posting.google.com>, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about: >> What this doesn't address is how much the owners want for them. I am >> not willing to part with my testicles for that particular rare, but >> oddly it seems that everyone wants far more than they're actually worth. > >Again, I traded for another one a few days ago. i paid in CE vampires. >Hardly testicles. Ah, but the question HERE is which vampires? Starter-only ones, which are highly difficult to obtain? Vampires are typically worth more than library cards. Depending on what you "paid" in, I figure you got screwed. >> The Taste won't be effective if you can't actually pay for all the cards >> in the first place. > >True. You'd have to avoid backing yourself into that corner. I guess >that comes down to the skill of the pilot. When you have a combo that costs 5 blood, there isn't going to be much skill involved; it's going to be either you have the Path out, or you don't get to play the cards. >> And as far as the Path goes... We burn Paths around here, constantly. > >Said mantra doesn't seem to apply around here. Don't ask me why, but >Paths almost never get burned. It's an oddity to be sure. I haven't >seen one burned in a long while. [shrug]. Can't explain it. Inability of the playgroup to follow the best course of action against the deck doesn't validate the concept of the deck itself. Quite the reverse, actually. >> Press combat has historically been shown to stink on ice. > >This is not "press combat". This is "it's good to have a press if you >need it" combat. If you don't need it, groovy. So your deck could just as well rely on inferior pot, then, since the press is just gravy. >> It's been getting a lot of support lately, but after throwing two Lids >> at someone, you should really have them in torpor or close enough that >> you have their attention -- without needing to worry about the "I fifth >> self" action anymore, it's not as critical to completely erase an 8-cap >> on the first turn. > >Indeed. However, you can't rely upon those strikes landing, your >opponent not dodging, Skinning, etc. Having a press, IF you need it, >can never hurt. But it's not necessary, right? Of course, there is this neat "dead end alley" card, and this "Potence" skill card Master thingy. No strategy is unbeatable. >> I don't think we need Shadow Step in the game, personally; limiting the >> effect to one vampire and one clan (Gargoyles) is fine by me. > >Alas, the card already exists. Not reprinting it simply gives an >advantage to those who are wealthy/savvy/lucky enough to own them >already - a small group by your own admission. This is not equitable >by any stretch of the imagination. The card should either be banned or >reprinted, yes? No. There is a third option: fail to reprint it. The card is not broken, therefore does not need to be banned. The card doesn't add anything meaningful to the game, therefore does not need to be reprinted. >> "Set range to close, crush" just really doesn't add anything; the >> Nosferatu have been able to do that -forever- with Drawing out the >> Beast. > >Indeed. And it is a bad thing for another Clan to be able to do it >how? It adds nothing to the game; instead, it makes IG combat (very common) all the more common and as a result more trumpy, something which everyone will acknowledge is a bad thing that has been changing for the better lately. >> He added a 7-cap with all the in-clans, something the Lasombra have >> desperately needed for a long time. > >Why? For CB? Because they didn't have a 7-cap at ALL. Having to go for 8-caps or better or put up with vampires with only one superior discipline was pretty annoying. That's why Talley was so good for them -- he had two superiors, and one of them was Obtenebration. Before Talley, it was use Guido, Aurora, Gratiano, and Lucita, or forget using OBT without skill cards. Guido didn't even HAVE Potence, and you didn't get two superior disciplines on one of your guys until 8. >So, he made it easier for Lasombra to vote. Something they could >already do with ease, and something a number of other Clans have been >able to do forever. Your previous "Nosferatu-Drawing out the beast" >example as an arguement against Shadow Step seems to contradict to >your arguement about Tobias' usefulness. Tobias is useful in many more decks than just vote decks. >> And blow 2 more blood out the window after spending HOW much? > >1 with a Path. 2 without. Unless you were unlucky and blew an Entomb >on a dodging mark, which is possible. Decapitate isn't affected by your Path. Don't know what you're smoking. >> I agree with Norm's view here -- the Lasombra are already excellent >> voters and bleeders. They don't need to be excellent fighters too; >> we've already got plenty of bruise-and-vote (Nossies) and >> bruise-and-bleed (EuroBrujah, several others) clans. > >"Need"? Again, did we "need" Tobias? Moreover, did we "need" Quietus? >I think we need a couple of POT vamps more. And you'd be wrong. You NEEDED a 7-cap with OBT. And you got one. In fact, you now have two. Finally, you have a good shot at making a deck that starts off with OBT and doesn't have to rely on enormous vampires to do it. >> I don't personally see a reason to even start walking down that road, >> myself. So your favourite clan can't fight with POT. So? > >So, it's illogical that their third discipline is ignored when all >other clans [except the Tori's apparently] get plenty of three-way >loving. Oh, please... don't make me laugh. Your entire argument is based on the desire to have your clan be good at fighting, voting, AND bleeding. There are thousands of "illogical" minor contradictions in this game. Me, I'd prefer to have the Lasombra get some more cheap vampires with OBT, their *primary* discipline, than add more POT vampires to a game which already has plenty. Number of vampires with OBT, as of Black Hand: 22. Number of vampires with POT, as of Black Hand: 103. >> Which reminds me: The Toreador are the answer to your question in >> another thread. No vampire with all three in-clans at superior below a >> 9-cap, and only three vampires with AUS CEL below a 9-cap... two in >> group 1, one in group 3. > >They sound on par with the Lasombra unless I'm missing something? That was all you asked; that SOMEONE show you another clan who has been "ignored". Fortunately, the Toreador are still able to make many very good decks, and are quite competitive. As are the Lasombra, even though you don't get the POT you seem to think you "need" but can't prove how you "need" it. >> Cardinal Benediction has been available to the Lasombra for many, many >> moons now, though. I don't see how any Lasombra deck worth its salt >> couldn't arrange to acquire vote lock to some degree prior to committing >> Amaranth. > >Unless you're counting on sticking in PRE vote mods simply for >Francisco, there is no way you can guarantee vote lock with a Lasombra >POT/pro variant. If you try to acquire this vote lock, that's more The thought of making POT/pro as a clan deck is laughable in itself. I don't believe I was speaking of POT/pro as a variant here, either... looking back, it seems we were talking about PRO/DOM, which I see as being an Arms of the Abyss/hands/claws type of affair when you get blocked. (I would, of course, make use of the PRIMARY DISCIPLINE of the Lasombra if I were to play with them.) You don't need to GUARANTEE vote lock. Just throw a few Cardinals in, bleed for the Edge, and let your Bishops or Priscus pass the vote 3 to 0 against the non-voting Camarilla voters, who are still much more common to see these days. Not to mention that cross-table players with incidental Sabbat titles can often be persuaded to vote in your favor. >> >Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9 >> >of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the >> >original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have >> >their merits. >> >> Yeah. Grave Robbing's number one merit: it ain't Decapitate. > >Indeed. That door, she swings both ways. Well, no. Having someone else's minion is ALWAYS better than burning it; in both instances, they don't have it, but in one instance, you DO. I'm ALWAYS willing to spend an action to get a free minion. -- Derek "From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of idiots." - unknown

In message <bl7vsvotlbprd9or2...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about: >In message <e72ec49.03120...@posting.google.com>, >nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about: > >>Again, I traded for another one a few days ago. i paid in CE vampires. >>Hardly testicles. > >Ah, but the question HERE is which vampires? Starter-only ones, which >are highly difficult to obtain? Allow me to clarify here. It's not that it's hard to go out and buy a starter. It's that you must go buy the starter, and possibly get a whole bunch of cards and vampires that you neither wanted or needed, just to get the starter-only vamps. The starters are, of course, easy to find. -- Derek Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music. It only stopped them hearing the distractions.

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Derek Ray wrote: > In message <bl7vsvotlbprd9or2...@4ax.com>, > Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about: > > >In message <e72ec49.03120...@posting.google.com>, > >nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about: > > > >>Again, I traded for another one a few days ago. i paid in CE vampires. > >>Hardly testicles. > > > >Ah, but the question HERE is which vampires? Starter-only ones, which > >are highly difficult to obtain? > > Allow me to clarify here. It's not that it's hard to go out and buy a > starter. It's that you must go buy the starter, and possibly get a > whole bunch of cards and vampires that you neither wanted or needed, > just to get the starter-only vamps. > > The starters are, of course, easy to find. Unless I'm mistaken, the point is moot as there are no starter-only CE vampires. Matt Morgan

In article <bl7vsvotlbprd9or2...@4ax.com>, lor...@yahoo.com says... > Ah, but the question HERE is which vampires? Starter-only ones, which > are highly difficult to obtain? I'm gonna throw in the two bits here and thank the designers for not making starter-only vamps in Black Hand. Just saves a whole bunch of hassle. > No. There is a third option: fail to reprint it. > > The card is not broken, therefore does not need to be banned. > The card doesn't add anything meaningful to the game, therefore does not > need to be reprinted. Not sure how it "doesn't add anything meaningful". I mean, it adds a neat tinkertoy for vamps with obt to play around with. I certainly wouldn't be upset to have a couple more. Hell if I know what I'd do with them, but I'd sooner see it reprinted than Up Yours! or Twisting the Knife. I mean, these things go for 10+$ on eBay... SOMEONE has to have a deck out there that's making use of them. > >> "Set range to close, crush" just really doesn't add anything; the > >> Nosferatu have been able to do that -forever- with Drawing out the > >> Beast. > > > >Indeed. And it is a bad thing for another Clan to be able to do it > >how? > > It adds nothing to the game; instead, it makes IG combat (very common) > all the more common and as a result more trumpy, something which > everyone will acknowledge is a bad thing that has been changing for the > better lately. Honestly, I use Shadow Step much more often as a "shit, must get out of dodge" card than a "get to close and crush" card. And used as the former, I think it adds something to the game - a cheap maneuver for vamps with obt. Given the Lasombra crypt as it stands, I don't think seeing more copies of this card in circulation would be bad. They're pretty lousy at "set range to close and crush" as it is. > >So, it's illogical that their third discipline is ignored when all > >other clans [except the Tori's apparently] get plenty of three-way > >loving. > > Oh, please... don't make me laugh. Your entire argument is based on the > desire to have your clan be good at fighting, voting, AND bleeding. While I agree that the Lasombra are good enough as it is, it'd be nice to be able to use their potence for something occasionally. More potence action cards could be cool. We've got the "smash things" pretty well covered. -- -Snapcase

>> Ah, but the question HERE is which vampires? Starter-only ones, which >> are highly difficult to obtain? >I'm gonna throw in the two bits here and thank the designers for not >making starter-only vamps in Black Hand. Just saves a whole bunch of >hassle. You mean these starter only vampires? Black Hand Starter only vampires Malkavian Antitribu The Colonel Malkavian Antitribu Roger Farnsworth Nosferatu Antitribu Ingram Frizer Nosferatu Antitribu Tock Toreador Antitribu Jessica (Advanced) Toreador Antitribu Sabrina Toreador Antitribu Venere Carboni Tremere Antitribu Ember Wright Tremere Antitribu Terrell Harding Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.thelasombra.com/lists/starteronlyvampires.txt -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In article <97eb04bddb1de9b2164...@mygate.mailgate.org>, thela...@hotmail.com says... > You mean these starter only vampires? > > Black Hand Starter only vampires > > Malkavian Antitribu The Colonel > Malkavian Antitribu Roger Farnsworth > > Nosferatu Antitribu Ingram Frizer > Nosferatu Antitribu Tock > > Toreador Antitribu Jessica (Advanced) > Toreador Antitribu Sabrina > Toreador Antitribu Venere Carboni > > Tremere Antitribu Ember Wright > Tremere Antitribu Terrell Harding ... Totally missed this on the list. Was wondering why I didn't have any Ember Wrights... Damnit. -- -Snapcase

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.03120...@fnord.io.com>, "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@fnord.io.com> wrote: >Unless I'm mistaken, the point is moot as there are no starter-only CE >vampires. you could consider all the group 2 vamps to be starter-only since they were not reprinted in the CE boosters, and it's probably hard to get boosters from Dark Sovereigns or Ancient Hearts these days. (maybe not DS, not sure.) -- charles lechasseur - da...@novideospamtron.ca

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bl7vsvotlbprd9or2...@4ax.com>... > In message <e72ec49.03120...@posting.google.com>, > nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about: > >> Cardinal Benediction has been available to the Lasombra for many, many > >> moons now, though. I don't see how any Lasombra deck worth its salt > >> couldn't arrange to acquire vote lock to some degree prior to committing > >> Amaranth. > > > >Unless you're counting on sticking in PRE vote mods simply for > >Francisco, there is no way you can guarantee vote lock with a Lasombra > >POT/pro variant. If you try to acquire this vote lock, that's more > > The thought of making POT/pro as a clan deck is laughable in itself. I > don't believe I was speaking of POT/pro as a variant here, either... > looking back, it seems we were talking about PRO/DOM, which I see as > being an Arms of the Abyss/hands/claws type of affair when you get > blocked. (I would, of course, make use of the PRIMARY DISCIPLINE of the > Lasombra if I were to play with them.) Sorry about this confusion. As a defense of the pot/obt/pro vamp I suggested that she fit well in my POT/pro deck (she does.) I then mentioned that the deck is beginning to have a decided Lasombra like flavor (or could at any rate.) Then I tried to explain how vote lock, etc. is meaningless in a deck of this type, in general 7AGG = ASH, do not pass go. This deck uses neither DOM, nor OBT, so Other than the odd number of Lasombra with the discipline (and my irrational love for Lisette) it doesn't belong where Noodle placed it. So Noodle is conflating several arguements here. Leave the why to the reader. > >Indeed. That door, she swings both ways. > > Well, no. Having someone else's minion is ALWAYS better than burning > it; in both instances, they don't have it, but in one instance, you DO. > > I'm ALWAYS willing to spend an action to get a free minion. <silly part of post> And I'll be sure to use that information against you? </silly part of post> Cameron F'ing PTO - Dave B.

The Lasombra wrote: >>>Ah, but the question HERE is which vampires? Starter-only ones, which >>>are highly difficult to obtain? >> > >>I'm gonna throw in the two bits here and thank the designers for not >>making starter-only vamps in Black Hand. Just saves a whole bunch of >>hassle. > > > You mean these starter only vampires? > > Black Hand Starter only vampires > > Malkavian Antitribu The Colonel > Malkavian Antitribu Roger Farnsworth > > Nosferatu Antitribu Ingram Frizer > Nosferatu Antitribu Tock > > Toreador Antitribu Jessica (Advanced) > Toreador Antitribu Sabrina > Toreador Antitribu Venere Carboni > > Tremere Antitribu Ember Wright > Tremere Antitribu Terrell Harding Note that it was not the design to have Jessica (Advanced) be a starter-only vampire. Also, she will not remain starter-only. She's slated to become part of the next promo set (and should be part of the SASE redemption program as well). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Charles Lechasseur wrote: > In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.03120...@fnord.io.com>, > "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@fnord.io.com> wrote: > > >>Unless I'm mistaken, the point is moot as there are no starter-only CE >>vampires. > > > you could consider all the group 2 vamps to be starter-only since they > were not reprinted in the CE boosters, and it's probably hard to get > boosters from Dark Sovereigns or Ancient Hearts these days. (maybe not DS, > not sure.) Printed in something other than starters and "starter-only" are mutually exclusive, by definition. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <3FD0806E...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Charles Lechasseur wrote: >> you could consider all the group 2 vamps to be starter-only since they >> were not reprinted in the CE boosters, and it's probably hard to get >> boosters from Dark Sovereigns or Ancient Hearts these days. (maybe not DS, >> not sure.) > >Printed in something other than starters and "starter-only" are >mutually exclusive, by definition. it depends on your definition. you could define "starter-only" as applicable to the set in question only, or to sets that are still in print. if a new player asks me if Arika is starter-only, my short answer would probably be "yes" as he/she probably won't find DS boosters anywhere, so won't see Arika printed in a booster. [ quoted text not captured ]

Charles Lechasseur wrote: > In article <3FD0806E...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> > wrote: > > >>Charles Lechasseur wrote: >> >>>you could consider all the group 2 vamps to be starter-only since they >>>were not reprinted in the CE boosters, and it's probably hard to get >>>boosters from Dark Sovereigns or Ancient Hearts these days. (maybe not DS, >>>not sure.) >> >>Printed in something other than starters and "starter-only" are >>mutually exclusive, by definition. > > it depends on your definition. you could define "starter-only" as > applicable to the set in question only, or to sets that are still in > print. Sorry, my mistake. Yes, one could invent definitions for otherwise clear terms so as to support many spurious arguments. I do not know anyone who would consider Blood Fury, Burning Wrath, and Computer Hacking to be starter-only cards, for example. > if a new player asks me if Arika is starter-only, my short answer would > probably be "yes" as he/she probably won't find DS boosters anywhere, so > won't see Arika printed in a booster. "Starter-only" isn't the same as "Not likely found in a booster". R1s are not starter-only. Dan Murdock is not starter-only. If the new player meant to ask if Arika could be found in any retail-available boosters, then you'd be doing him/her a favor by ignoring the question asked in favor of the one he/she meant to ask. If he/she meant to ask if Arika is starter-only, however, you'd be doing him/her a disservice by misleading him/her with your incorrect short answer. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <3FD1E17...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Charles Lechasseur wrote: >> it depends on your definition. you could define "starter-only" as >> applicable to the set in question only, or to sets that are still in >> print. > >Sorry, my mistake. > >Yes, one could invent definitions for otherwise clear terms so as to >support many spurious arguments. i guess one could. however, discrediting my argument won't make it spurious, no? i suppose you can understand that "clear terms" is a relative concept. :) >I do not know anyone who would consider Blood Fury, Burning Wrath, and >Computer Hacking to be starter-only cards, for example. a new player? i introduced a co-worker to the game and he bought CE starters and boosters. he considered Computer Hacking to be starter-only, since he could no longer find any boosters that contained them. >> if a new player asks me if Arika is starter-only, my short answer would >> probably be "yes" as he/she probably won't find DS boosters anywhere, so >> won't see Arika printed in a booster. > >"Starter-only" isn't the same as "Not likely found in a booster". R1s >are not starter-only. Dan Murdock is not starter-only. if the R1 in question was found in a starter and not in any available boosters, then it'd be starter-only according to my definition, yes. Disarm, for example, would be, if SW boosters were unavailable. Dan Murdock was never in a starter, so is not "starter-only" according to my definition or yours. so yes, you are right - it's not the same thing. my definition is not the same thing either - does this make it false? >If the new player meant to ask if Arika could be found in any >retail-available boosters, then you'd be doing him/her a favor by ignoring >the question asked in favor of the one he/she meant to ask. If he/she meant >to ask if Arika is starter-only, however, you'd be doing him/her a >disservice by misleading him/her with your incorrect short answer. if i was to only give the short answer, maybe you are right. i would certainly explain to the new player that these are reprints of past sets now out-of-print, if i had the time. which is why i said it would be my "short" answer. maybe i'm making a mistake with my definition of "starter-only", but still, when limiting it to new players, i'm not so sure it's a bad definition, really. [ quoted text not captured ]

Charles Lechasseur wrote: > i guess one could. however, discrediting my argument won't make it spurious, no? No. An argument is spurious or not independent of any discrediting it receives. > i suppose you can understand that "clear terms" is a relative concept. :) Claiming that "starter-only" means something other than starter-only is disingenuous. [snip talk of newbie equating "starter-only" to "things I find in a starter that I haven't yet found in a booster"] [ quoted text not captured ]