VENTRUE ANTITRIBU SPECIAL REPORT
Bloodlines Edition
EXECUTIVE OVERVIEW
Still no new games played, so no 'regular' December Newsletter is likely to
be forthcoming.
However, having opened a box of Bloodlines (and eagerly surveyed the cards I
didn't get through various online sources - thanks again, Ethan, Monger
rules!) I just can't resist putting together an entirely speculative special
edition to try to take a first pass at predicting what the new expansion
will (and won't) do for the !Ventrue...
CONTENTS
- Banner
- Executive Overview
- Contents
- From the Chairman: Fire in the Blood
- Analyst Recommendations: Blood Feast
- The Invisible Hand: Hidden Lurker
- Forward-Looking Statements
- The Fine Print
FROM THE CHAIRMAN: Fire in the Blood
The Ventrue Antitribu had very high expectations for Bloodlines. After all,
White Wolf's pre-release previews listed no fewer than 5 of the 12 new
bloodlines as 'mixing well with the Ventrue Antitribu', more than any other
clan. (They were the Nagaraja, Daughters, Harbingers, Salubri, and
!Salubri. Curiously, the Samedi were listed as compatible with the Ventrue,
but not the !Ventrue - more on that later...)
Having seen, if not played, the new cards, it seems certain that the
Bloodlines _will_ have a large impact on the !Ventrue - though not
necessarily in the ways they were intended, at least if the preview hype is
anything to go by.
First, the big disappointment: I was really hoping the !Salubri would
provide the low capacity vampires needed to really make au/fo decks
reasonable. In particular, I was looking for some 6-cap or lower vampires
with AU/FO or au/FO. What I got was, of course, one 7-cap with AU/fo; Billy
clearly beats out Adonai for this discipline combo.
Of the five !Salubri, only two have any fortitude at all - both at inferior.
Only three have auspex, and only Adonai has both AU/fo, and he's a 7-cap.
Further, the 'ulterior' (which someone clever suggested as the proper term
for the out-of-discipline level of the Bloodlines 'split' discipline cards)
versions of the Valeren cards don't tend to use auspex or fortitude, making
them pretty useless for !Ventrue. Of the seven Valeren cards (not counting
the Obeah card which has a Valeren ulterior), three default down to
_animalism_; there is one each for auspex and fortitude, and then one for
each of potence and thaumaturgy. So, while the Salubri Antitribu do look
_very_ interesting, and very playable, they look to me to be much more
compatible with the Tzimisce than the !Ventrue.
Two other Bloodlines _did_ provide support for au/fo at the low end;
unfortunately, one of them is the Gargoyles. Luma (au/FO 5-cap) and Pugfar
(au/fo 5-cap) are both promising looking until you note that they are both
slaves. I suspect that there may be some interesting decks to be made
involving the Gargoyles and !Ventrue - there are three !Ventrue with
potence, after all, and they all like to vote, which is an undirected action
- but the resulting deck will not likely be au/fo centered. (There's also
the Fidus, Vincent, Marlene, Merrill, Muaziz fo/th obscenity just waiting to
be made...)
Similarly, the Blood Brothers look to supplement a !Ventrue + potence vote
approach. Alternatively, the !Ventrue could provide vote support for a
Blood Brothers centered deck.
The other Bloodline which contributes usefully to the au/fo combination is
the extraordinary Salubri, who, if anything, exceed their hype. Miriam
Benyona, a 5-cap with AU/fo/oh and a beautiful special for the !Ventrue, is
just what the doctor ordered. Blanche Hill, au/FO/OH 6-cap and a decent
special, is nothing to sneeze at either. And Matthias, AU/FO/ne/OH 7-cap
with +1 intercept and nice kicker to the Baali and snakes, rounds things out
nicely. That the Obeah cards rock and have more useable ulterior outs for
the !Ventrue just makes the Salubri that much more attractive. Their
scarcity may make them a little more challenging to play with, but you
probably don't want loads of them in your crypt anyway - just enough to
complement whatever your !Ventrue were planning to do in the first place.
And then there's the Harbingers. More au/fo mid-caps, and a _lot_ of nice
specials, including some titles. It'll be interesting to see who ends up
complementing whom. The Harbingers have their own strategy, and may want to
fill out their crypt with !Ventrue, rather than the other way around. Of
course, a few necromancy masters combined with plenty of Call of the Hungry
Dead might go a long way towards getting things done with the !Ventrue...
The other necromancers with in-clan discipline overlap, the Nagaraja, again
have really nice specials (Le Din Tho has Revelations at inferior built
in!); I'm not sure how useful they are likely to be to the !Ventrue without
any fortitude, though. Auspex/dominate, while often found, is rarely used
as a two-discipline combo. The !Ventrue tend to rely on fortitude to keep
themselves healthy, and the Nagaraja wouldn't have that possibility. With
new dodges for both auspex and dominate, though, maybe they won't need to?
And, again, necromancy might reduce the need to defend ourselves, at least
as a result of having been blocked.
This leaves us with six Bloodlines left to contemplate. Of them, three, the
Ahrimanes, Baali, and Trujah would seem to have little to offer to the
!Ventrue.
The Kiasyd will certainly contribute to the various !Ventrue + obtenebration
concepts, like last month's voter. (Kassiym, with do/fo/OT at 6-cap, seems
particularly well suited.) Beatrice, with au/do/ne at 5-cap, might fit in a
necromancy using !Ventrue hybrid. Interestingly, most of the Kiasyd have
auspex.
The Daughters of Cacophony, while touted as a help to the !Ventrue, seem an
odd fit. Only two !Ventrue have any presence, and only one of them is a
voter. (Only two [different] !Ventrue have any celerity, the other common
ulterior of melpominee cards.) I suspect that the Camarilla Ventrue will
have a lot more to offer the Daughters. As low-caps with fortitude, though,
I would expect to see the Daughters showing up in a lot of the same Undead
Persistence circles as !Ventrue.
Finally, the Samedi. Hyped as a good mix with the Giovanni, Harbingers, and
Ventrue, I predict these are the guys who will make the biggest difference
for the !Ventrue. Our biggest problem (sing along if you know the words):
getting things done. The Samedi's biggest problem: no way around S:CE and
dodge (little auspex, little celerity, and no potence). The solution for
both of us: Hidden Lurker.
Get out George Frederick (FO ne ob TN, Sam, 6) and a !Ventrue or two. Take
an action that _will_ be blocked - think Recruiting Party, nasty vote, or
practically anything using dominate. Prevent out of the resulting combat,
and Hidden Lurker George in. Now George can Trap, strike Withering at
superior without fear or evasion or reprisal (put in some Unflinching
Persistence or Fake Out or IR Goggles for maneuvers), press until the
blocker is empty, and then Compress to burn that mother down. Sweet. Watch
as people rethink the wisdom of blocking you.
All of the Samedi come with at least inferior obfuscate, which is all you
need for the Hidden Lurker, and, really, all you need of obfuscate. (The
superior of Hidden Lurker is handy, of course, but you have to go all the
way up to Jack Dawson at 8-cap to get FO/OB/TN, which is what you need to
press, Wither effectively, and still have UP maneuvers.) And with a
Coroner's Contract, you can even go fish for your enforcer. It's a four
discipline deck - do/fo/ob/tn - but eminently doable when you don't need all
four on any particular minion.
Anyway, that's all of the Bloodlines. A few disappointments, a lot of
strong contenders, and one or two unexpected and very pleasant surprises -
and that's just so far! I feel pretty secure in predicting a strong upsurge
in the number of !Ventrue showing up in decks in the near future - and
probably in the number and variety of !Ventrue decks as well. We always
knew we had potential...
ANALYST RECOMMENDATIONS: Blood Feast
This month's analyst recommendations are a capsule review of chairman
Lazverinus' remarks above:
Bloodline Symbol Rating Comments
Ahrimanes (Ahr) Sell Folks, remember to neuter or spay
your pets...
Baali (Baa) Sell Oh joy - more snakes.
Blood Brothers (BB) Accumulate Pot/for has real potential for
crossover.
Daughters of Cacophony (DoC) Neutral An unlikely match.
Gargoyles (Gar) Hold Pot/for + Tre/!Tre has too many
moving parts? Or just use them to
call votes?
Harbingers of Skulls (HoS) Buy They'll probably be investing in
us...
Kiasyd (Kia) Hold Dom/obt might help with voting?
Nagaraja (Nag) Accumulate Strong specials, but probably more
help to the Giovanni and Malks.
Salubri (Sal) Strong Buy Very powerful.
!Salubri (!Sal) Neutral They might fill out the low end...
Samedi (Sam) Strong Buy Hire your own enforcer now!
True Brujah (Tru) Sell Brujah that think? What'll they
come up with next...
THE INVISIBLE HAND: Hidden Lurker
Evelyn shrugged off the impact of the .44 slug, directing blood to repair
the damage as he simultaneously navigated the maze of corridors leading from
the museum's basement to his waiting limousine. Sliding into the back seat,
secure behind bulletproof glass, he waited.
"KRCG?" It wasn't really a question.
"Yes sir - the code was unmistakable. They made you, as expected," his
driver replied.
"Good, good."
He had never really expected to succeed in his little scouting mission; next
time, though, should be an entirely different matter...
A few minutes later, the loading dock door opened once again, and Mr.
Frederick set a small urn, no doubt borrowed from the museum's collection,
down on the hood of the limo. A small wisp of ash trailed from its rim,
stirred briefly by the breeze of the Samedi picking up the waiting briefcase
and vanishing into the night.
FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS
Until next time, whenever that may be...
Submissions and feedback to me: alex.br...@clearband.com.
THE FINE PRINT
CORRECTION: In last month's edition, Telepathic Vote Counting was
misrepresented as a potential source of hand jam. TVC is freely cycleable
(subject to the usual restrictions on action modifiers, and assuming you can
succeed in calling a political action). The !Ventrue regret the error.
The information contained herein is based on sources believed to be
reliable, but its accuracy cannot be guaranteed. Decks constructed using
the !Ventrue may lose games. Decks are not insured against loss by the
author, Lazverinus, rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad, LSJ, White Wolf, the
government, or your mother. Please _don't_ email the author requesting a
full disclosure of the !Ventrue's finances. For a full disclosure of the
editor's shortcomings, however, please see past and present Executive
Overviews. Caveat Emptor.
Howdy,
> VENTRUE ANTITRIBU SPECIAL REPORT
> Bloodlines Edition
You know, if Lasombra hadn't archived this edition, I would have to
assume that the Google posting problem had kept everyone from reading
it... I'd appreciate it if people would at least take the trouble to
flame me for my ignorant rants - it'd be better than no feedback at
all...
Anyway, I wanted to reevaluate at least one of my assessments, and
correct a minor error:
> The Daughters of Cacophony, while touted as a help to the !Ventrue, seem an
> odd fit. Only two !Ventrue have any presence, and only one of them is a
> voter. (Only two [different] !Ventrue have any celerity, the other common
> ulterior of melpominee cards.) I suspect that the Camarilla Ventrue will
> have a lot more to offer the Daughters. As low-caps with fortitude, though,
> I would expect to see the Daughters showing up in a lot of the same Undead
> Persistence circles as !Ventrue.
Having just re-read the text for Siren's Lure (I still don't own one),
I would like to revise my opinion of DoC + !Ven. DO/fo/me looks like
a lot of unblockability to me, with Seduction and _one Siren's Lure
per untapped Melpominee user_ per action. And if you're using the
superior, you can do it multiple times per turn... It's really a
shame that the Lure is rare.
Furthermore, there are plenty of cheap Daughters with fo/me or fo/ME.
Throw in a bunch of Skin of Steel/Superior Mettle (which is always
handy anyway), and those resulting combats shouldn't be a big worry in
general.
I see this as being another interesting 'escort' concept with
potential on the order of the Samedi/!Ventrue hybrid I hyped in the
original Bloodlines Special (BS). It's just that these 'escorts' are
more the kind of escorts you'd call an 'escort service' for; the
Samedi are the bodyguard kind of escort.
> All of the Samedi come with at least inferior obfuscate, which is all you
> need for the Hidden Lurker, and, really, all you need of obfuscate. (The
> superior of Hidden Lurker is handy, of course, but you have to go all the
> way up to Jack Dawson at 8-cap to get FO/OB/TN, which is what you need to
> press, Wither effectively, and still have UP maneuvers.)
My sources failed me above; Jack Dawson has FO/OB/tn. You'd need The
Baron (9-cap) for FO/OB/TN. My pick for bodyguard is definitely
George Frederick (FO/ob/TN, 6-cap) for Unflinching Persitence or Jorge
de la Muerte (fo/OB/TN, 7-cap) for Hidden Lurker pressing.
My attempt to test out this hybrid at the Chicago Bloodlines '40/40
Post-Release' I hosted was a bit of a fiasco. First round, with a
crypt of 4 Samedi, 7 !Ventrue, and a Giovanni, I eventually drew seven
crypt cards - all !Ventrue. Second round, I made the mistake of
bringing out Lithrac (I was just overjoyed to see a Samedi in my
crypt); inferior Thanatosis just doesn't do it. By the time I got
Jorge up, I was toast. I still think it'll work though, and it should
work better constructed than semi-sealed.
> ANALYST RECOMMENDATIONS: Blood Feast
>
> This month's analyst recommendations are a capsule review of chairman
> Lazverinus' remarks above:
>> Daughters of Cacophony (DoC) Neutral An unlikely match.
Upgraded to Buy. All but Celeste will work with the fo/me 'escort'
concept.
Hope that helps,
Alex
"Alex Broadhead" <alex.br...@clearband.com> wrote in message
news:5f63e367.02010...@posting.google.com...
> Howdy,
>
> > VENTRUE ANTITRIBU SPECIAL REPORT
> > Bloodlines Edition
>
> You know, if Lasombra hadn't archived this edition, I would have to
> assume that the Google posting problem had kept everyone from reading
> it... I'd appreciate it if people would at least take the trouble to
> flame me for my ignorant rants - it'd be better than no feedback at
> all...
I must've missed the ignorant rants. ;-) Maybe I'll flame next
time.
> Having just re-read the text for Siren's Lure (I still don't own one),
> I would like to revise my opinion of DoC + !Ven. DO/fo/me looks like
> a lot of unblockability to me, with Seduction and _one Siren's Lure
> per untapped Melpominee user_ per action. And if you're using the
> superior, you can do it multiple times per turn... It's really a
> shame that the Lure is rare.
This may not actually work as well as we'd like. Per LSJ's post
of Dec 21, 2001, "It seems likely that the second Siren's Lure
can not be played at all (like Psyche! cannot be played when
a pending combat exists)." Which didn't come straight out and
rule that you can only Siren's Lure once per action, but does
imply that such a ruling might be (is likely to be) made.
I kinda like the Daughters anyway, though. But then I still
want to try and make Choir go. Which maybe it won't, without
a lot more Embraces and Freak Drives than I have.
Josh
singin' in the rain
alex.br...@clearband.com (Alex Broadhead) wrote in message news:<5f63e367.01121...@posting.google.com>...
> VENTRUE ANTITRIBU SPECIAL REPORT
> Bloodlines Edition> Finally, the Samedi. Hyped as a good mix with the Giovanni, Harbingers, and> Ventrue, I predict these are the guys who will make the biggest difference
> for the !Ventrue. Our biggest problem (sing along if you know the words):
> getting things done. The Samedi's biggest problem: no way around S:CE and
> dodge (little auspex, little celerity, and no potence). The solution for
> both of us: Hidden Lurker.
>
> Get out George Frederick (FO ne ob TN, Sam, 6) and a !Ventrue or two. Take
> an action that _will_ be blocked - think Recruiting Party, nasty vote, or
> practically anything using dominate. Prevent out of the resulting combat,
> and Hidden Lurker George in. Now George can Trap, strike Withering at
> superior without fear or evasion or reprisal (put in some Unflinching
> Persistence or Fake Out or IR Goggles for maneuvers), press until the
> blocker is empty, and then Compress to burn that mother down. Sweet. Watch
> as people rethink the wisdom of blocking you.
I like this. Think also Rigor Mortis for the canceling of maneuvers
thingy... has a crappy ultior ability, but hey... maneuver's maneuver.
> All of the Samedi come with at least inferior obfuscate, which is all you
> need for the Hidden Lurker, and, really, all you need of obfuscate. (The
> superior of Hidden Lurker is handy, of course, but you have to go all the
> way up to Jack Dawson at 8-cap to get FO/OB/TN, which is what you need to
> press, Wither effectively, and still have UP maneuvers.) And with a
> Coroner's Contract, you can even go fish for your enforcer. It's a four
> discipline deck - do/fo/ob/tn - but eminently doable when you don't need all
> four on any particular minion.
Really, I'd think that Samedi would actually go better along with
Ventrue. I mean, sure... why not? we've got the dom and presence for
fun bleeding maddness, which will surely be blocked. Prevent (or end
combat), hidden lurker, and fight as above.
There ARE other more effective ways of doing bruise bleed though... :)
~Screaming Vermillian
Howdy,
> > Get out George Frederick (FO ne ob TN, Sam, 6) and a !Ventrue or two. Take
> > an action that _will_ be blocked - think Recruiting Party, nasty vote, or
> > practically anything using dominate. Prevent out of the resulting combat,
> > and Hidden Lurker George in. Now George can Trap, strike Withering at
> > superior without fear or evasion or reprisal (put in some Unflinching
> > Persistence or Fake Out or IR Goggles for maneuvers), press until the
> > blocker is empty, and then Compress to burn that mother down. Sweet. Watch
> > as people rethink the wisdom of blocking you.
>
> I like this. Think also Rigor Mortis for the canceling of maneuvers
> thingy... has a crappy ultior ability, but hey... maneuver's maneuver.
Like you say, whatever works. I just suggested Unflinching or Fake
Out so that your majority !Ventrue (who don't have Presence) can use
them as well.
> Really, I'd think that Samedi would actually go better along with
> Ventrue. I mean, sure... why not? we've got the dom and presence for
> fun bleeding maddness, which will surely be blocked. Prevent (or end
> combat), hidden lurker, and fight as above.
Well, perhaps, but given that this is the !Ventrue Newsletter, I'm
more interested in figuring out how to make _them_ work. <troll>
Besides, as Ben Peal has already established, the Ventrue are a
hopeless case. </troll>
Also, for straight do/fo bleeding, !Ventrue are better than Ventrue:
Ingrid Russo is the smallest DO/fo vamp at 4-cap, and Vanessa is the
smallest DO/FO vamp at 6-cap. (And Peter is marginally better than
Courtland due to his special.) <heresy> Of course the crypt I'm
working with now has 5 !Ventrue, 4 Ventrue, and 3 Samedi - Ranjan in
particular is hard to pass up. There just isn't enough superior
fortitude in the !Ventrue crypt. </heresy>
> There ARE other more effective ways of doing bruise bleed though... :)
With the !Ventrue? I still haven't done the issues on Undead
Persistence or Dawn Operation, or a Potence or Thaumaturgy crossover
special, so those don't count, but if you've got a good formula for
!Ventrue bruise bleed that isn't one of those, I'd love to hear it.
(Actually, even if it is one of those I'd like to hear it.)
Thanks for the feedback,
Alex
Howdy Josh,
> > You know, if Lasombra hadn't archived this edition, I would have to
> > assume that the Google posting problem had kept everyone from reading
> > it... I'd appreciate it if people would at least take the trouble to
> > flame me for my ignorant rants - it'd be better than no feedback at
> > all...
>
> I must've missed the ignorant rants. ;-) Maybe I'll flame next
> time.
This is rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad; feel free to flame whenever you
want! <insert smiley thing here>
> > Having just re-read the text for Siren's Lure (I still don't own one),
> > I would like to revise my opinion of DoC + !Ven. DO/fo/me looks like
> > a lot of unblockability to me, with Seduction and _one Siren's Lure
> > per untapped Melpominee user_ per action. And if you're using the
> > superior, you can do it multiple times per turn... It's really a
> > shame that the Lure is rare.
>
> This may not actually work as well as we'd like. Per LSJ's post
> of Dec 21, 2001, "It seems likely that the second Siren's Lure
> can not be played at all (like Psyche! cannot be played when
> a pending combat exists)." Which didn't come straight out and
> rule that you can only Siren's Lure once per action, but does
> imply that such a ruling might be (is likely to be) made.
Hmmm... I haven't read a lot about Psyche!, but its wording does seem
to lead to potential problems:
Psyche!
Combat
Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a combat when both combatants are
still ready. Enter combat with the opposing minion. This is a new
combat.
I believe I saw some bits about difficulties with Illusions of the
Kindred, which ends and then starts combat while already in combat. I
don't see this sort of nested stacking as problematic in relation to
Siren's Lure:
Siren's Lure
Action Modifier
Melpominee/Celerity
[cel] This vampire burns 2 blood to get +1 stealth.
[mel] Only usable by an untapped ready vampire other than the acting
minion when a minion attempts to block. That minion cannot block this
action. Tap this vampire and that minion. Once the action resolves,
this vampire enters combat with that minion.
[MEL] As [mel] above, but do not tap this modifying vampire.
The wording of Siren's Lure would seem to me to provide a
straightforward method of stacking combats from outside of combat.
Each time someone tries to block acting minion A, an untapped ready
Melpominee user can tap (or not at superior) to cause 1) the block to
fail, and 2) a combat to be scheduled for later.
Since each Siren can only play one Lure per action due to the action
modifiers rule, there's no way a Siren can end up in two combats.
Since each blocker can no longer block the current action, no blocker
can end up in two combats, though I'm not sure either of those bits
really matters. There is the minor difficulty of scheduling the
multiple combats; I'd tend to rule that the acting minion's controller
should get to choose the order of the combats, all of which will
happen sequentially 'once the action resolves'. (I assume that the
combats are still part of the action though, as in Hidden Lurker?)
I don't see any problems - what am I missing? LSJ? (I'd rather not
go to the trouble of collecting Siren's Lures if this isn't a workable
tactic.)
Thanks for the heads up,
Alex
alex.br...@clearband.com (Alex Broadhead) wrote in message news:<5f63e367.02010...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > There ARE other more effective ways of doing bruise bleed though... :)
>
> With the !Ventrue? I still haven't done the issues on Undead
> Persistence or Dawn Operation, or a Potence or Thaumaturgy crossover
> special, so those don't count, but if you've got a good formula for
> !Ventrue bruise bleed that isn't one of those, I'd love to hear it.
> (Actually, even if it is one of those I'd like to hear it.)
>
Actually, I found Dawn Op B&B to be a pretty good strategy. It's main
pitfalls, AFAICT, are unpreventable damage, damage prevention from the
dirty cheat that blocks you, bleed bounce, and non-blocking
hand-jamming jerks, in approximately decreasing order of severity.
As far as bleed bounce, since you're playing B&B and not S&B, Change
of Target is viable, and Recruiting Party gives you at least
*something* else to do while you wait. Or a few votes (and I notice
you mention !Ven voting a lot, even though I've never been able to do
it myself).
Other than that, the whole strategy seems to work pretty well. Adding
Samedi *does* get around the first two problems, although it makes
hand jam even more of a problem. On the whole, I'm intrigued by the
idea, though. And I thought Thanatosis was useless.
Alex Broadhead wrote:
> Howdy Josh,> > This may not actually work as well as we'd like. Per LSJ's post
> > of Dec 21, 2001, "It seems likely that the second Siren's Lure
> > can not be played at all (like Psyche! cannot be played when
> > a pending combat exists)." Which didn't come straight out and
> > rule that you can only Siren's Lure once per action, but does
> > imply that such a ruling might be (is likely to be) made.> I don't see any problems - what am I missing? LSJ? (I'd rather not> go to the trouble of collecting Siren's Lures if this isn't a workable
> tactic.)
Per the cited post, there is (or may be) a problem with queueing a
combat when another combat is already queued. cf. the prohibition
against playing Psyche! immediately after Illusions of the Kindred
is played (unless the Illusion-playing-controller's crypt is empty).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/