two Qs: Reinforcements and Clio's Kiss

Reinforcements text: "Choose one or more Methuselahs. Successful referendum means each chosen Methuselah selects up to 3 library cards from his or her ash heap and shuffles them into his or her library. Remove this card from the game, even if the action is canceled or blocked or the referendum fails." I think this means that even if Reinforcements is canceled by Direct Intervention (or Rewind Time), it's removed from the game. Right? What about Delaying Tactics? Presumably the card should still be removed from the game, but what's the timing on that? Is it removed from the game when played (ie it's never in the ash heap at all, or goes immediately from ash heap to out-of-game)? Or does it hang around until the action resolves? Until the referendum resolves? If the referendum is Delayed, does the acting Methuselah return the Reinforcements to her hand, discard to hand size, and then remove Reinforcements from the game, or is Reinforcements already out-of-game and therefore Delay's instruction to return it to hand "fizzles"? Clio's Kiss text: "(D) Choose a vampire card another Methuselah is contesting with you. That Methuselah yields that copy. If there are no other Methuselah's contesting the vampire, place your copy of the vampire face up in your ={controlled}= region, untapped." Cards being contested are not in play, and therefore can't have actions directed at them, right? Is the (D) symbol on this card telling us that Clio's Kiss is actually directed at the Methuselah who's contesting the card with you, or is it actually an undirected action (like Grasp the Ghostly) and the (D) symbol was a mistake? thanks, Josh hates getting kissed...

Joshua Duffin wrote: > > Reinforcements text: "Choose one or more Methuselahs. > Successful referendum means each chosen Methuselah selects > up to 3 library cards from his or her ash heap and shuffles > them into his or her library. Remove this card from the > game, even if the action is canceled or blocked or the > referendum fails." > > I think this means that even if Reinforcements is canceled > by Direct Intervention (or Rewind Time), it's removed from > the game. Right? No. DI cancels the card play (before the action gets started). Change of Target (e.g.) cancels the action. When DI is played, all part of the canceled card's text are ignored. > What about Delaying Tactics? Presumably the card should > still be removed from the game, but what's the timing on > that? Is it removed from the game when played (ie it's > never in the ash heap at all, or goes immediately from ash > heap to out-of-game)? Or does it hang around until the > action resolves? Until the referendum resolves? If the > referendum is Delayed, does the acting Methuselah return > the Reinforcements to her hand, discard to hand size, and > then remove Reinforcements from the game, or is > Reinforcements already out-of-game and therefore Delay's > instruction to return it to hand "fizzles"? It is out of the game, so cannot be affected by DT. DT will cancel the referendum, but will fail to return the card from out of play to the player's hand. > Clio's Kiss text: "(D) Choose a vampire card another > Methuselah is contesting with you. That Methuselah yields > that copy. If there are no other Methuselah's contesting > the vampire, place your copy of the vampire face up in > your ={controlled}= region, untapped." > > Cards being contested are not in play, and therefore can't > have actions directed at them, right? Is the (D) symbol Unless card text says otherwise (like CK does), right. > on this card telling us that Clio's Kiss is actually > directed at the Methuselah who's contesting the card with > you, or is it actually an undirected action (like Grasp > the Ghostly) and the (D) symbol was a mistake? The action is directed at the target out-of-play vampire and thus at its controller (the Methuselah who is paying to contest that copy - the Methuselah who would control it if all other copies were yielded). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D08CCB2...@white-wolf.com... > Joshua Duffin wrote: [re Reinforcements] > No. DI cancels the card play (before the action gets started). > Change of Target (e.g.) cancels the action. > > When DI is played, all part of the canceled card's text are > ignored. Ah, right. Thanks. > > Clio's Kiss text: "(D) Choose a vampire card another > > Methuselah is contesting with you. That Methuselah yields > > that copy. If there are no other Methuselah's contesting > > the vampire, place your copy of the vampire face up in > > your ={controlled}= region, untapped." > > > > Cards being contested are not in play, and therefore can't > > have actions directed at them, right? Is the (D) symbol > > Unless card text says otherwise (like CK does), right. I thought the (D) symbol was currently considered reminder text, and it's the target of an action that tells us whether it's directed. Not so? Or do you mean that Clio's Kiss's text allows it to target a contested card? (If so, that I can understand, but not how that can make the action directed - see below...) > > on this card telling us that Clio's Kiss is actually > > directed at the Methuselah who's contesting the card with > > you, or is it actually an undirected action (like Grasp > > the Ghostly) and the (D) symbol was a mistake? > > The action is directed at the target out-of-play vampire and > thus at its controller (the Methuselah who is paying to contest > that copy - the Methuselah who would control it if all other > copies were yielded). But I don't see how we can refer to a card's "controller" when the card isn't actually controlled. How can Clio's Kiss can be meaningfully directed at a card that's out of play; doesn't "out of play" mean it's "not considered to be in the play area" or something like that? I'm not clear on how this differs from Grasp the Ghostly. Grasp the Ghostly is undirected because the ash heap is not "controlled". This seems to me a lot like Clio's Kiss, since contested cards (vampires) are also not "controlled". Unless the target is the Methuselah and not the card, it doesn't make sense (to me) for Clio's Kiss to be directed - and it seems clear that the target isn't the Methuselah but the contested card. (If it were the Methuselah, it should say something like: "Choose a Methuselah. That Methuselah yields a vampire card of your choice that she is contesting with you. [...]") Josh untargetable

Joshua Duffin wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > > > Clio's Kiss text: "(D) Choose a vampire card another > > > Methuselah is contesting with you. That Methuselah yields > > > that copy. If there are no other Methuselah's contesting > > > the vampire, place your copy of the vampire face up in > > > your ={controlled}= region, untapped." > > > > > > Cards being contested are not in play, and therefore can't > > > have actions directed at them, right? Is the (D) symbol > > > > Unless card text says otherwise (like CK does), right. > > I thought the (D) symbol was currently considered reminder > text, and it's the target of an action that tells us whether > it's directed. Not so? Or do you mean that Clio's Kiss's > text allows it to target a contested card? (If so, that I > can understand, but not how that can make the action > directed - see below...) Clio's Kiss says "Choose a <contested card>". So you do. And so it is directed. Things that target your contested cards are directed at you just as things that target your uncontrolled region are. > > > on this card telling us that Clio's Kiss is actually > > > directed at the Methuselah who's contesting the card with > > > you, or is it actually an undirected action (like Grasp > > > the Ghostly) and the (D) symbol was a mistake? > > > > The action is directed at the target out-of-play vampire and > > thus at its controller (the Methuselah who is paying to contest > > that copy - the Methuselah who would control it if all other > > copies were yielded). > > But I don't see how we can refer to a card's "controller" > when the card isn't actually controlled. How can Clio's > Kiss can be meaningfully directed at a card that's out of > play; doesn't "out of play" mean it's "not considered to > be in the play area" or something like that? See Navar's special ability. Or Darius's Special. > I'm not clear on how this differs from Grasp the Ghostly. > Grasp the Ghostly is undirected because the ash heap is > not "controlled". This seems to me a lot like Clio's Kiss, It is not. Ash heap is a different thing. Contested is more like uncontrolled and crypt than it is like burnt. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BAFEC56.23C0A9D2%40white-wolf.com [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D08F6C0...@white-wolf.com... > It is not. Ash heap is a different thing. Contested is more > like uncontrolled and crypt than it is like burnt. > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BAFEC56.23C0A9D2%40white-wolf.com Thanks for the reference. I agree that it makes sense for Darius, Lazar, and Clio's Kiss's effects to be blockable by the person they're going to affect. But it seems to me that, with the increase in effects affecting ash heaps (certainly including one's own), your ash heap should probably be likewise "defensible", counter to what you wrote in that thread: "The ash heap, on the other hand, is not a "resource" for the player. The cards contained therein are not, in general, cards that the player hopes to control. So the need to allow the prey/predator to block the minion-gaining effect of Daemonic Possession outweighs the need of the "target" to protect her ash heap." Either way, another thing I'd suggest would be good to have spelled out in the rulebook, so people don't (like me) get confused over what is and isn't "controlled enough" to count as causing a directed action. :-) Josh clarified, like butter