Cards that suck!

There has been a lot of raving and raving about how great the FN cards are. I do think this is a great set with lots of great cards. However, there are some not so great cards in this set. In fact there are some downright useless cards. I'd like to post some of those new cards which useless if not wallpaper. Please let me know if im wrong about some of these or add in other ones you think are uesless too. The card text for each of the cards are at the bottom. Abomination - not worth using on Renegade Garou and Werewolf packs aren't worth putting in a deck. Possibly a Spiral buddy deck could use this card? Masquer (Wraith) - A more expensive version of Raven Spy. Maybe they bumped its cost because there is a path of bone out there. Don't like the idea of paying 2 blood and an action to get 1 intercept. Mythic Form - Look its another body of sun, at lease I don't take 3 agg at inferior. 3 blood just to get stop combat ended. It's an R1 to boot! (at least I wont get that many) Shadow Parasite - Hmm, sewer lid that costs 2 blood. Ok so its Obt instead of Pot. There are only 13 vampires that have Obt/OBT and don't also have pot/POT. So even in decks that are based around vamps with Obtenebration they are more likely than not to also have pot/POT. I think this was another case of the design team figuring on path of shadow being in play and adding an unwarranted +1 blood cost. Sewer lid rocks this card, a shame it wastes rare slot in my booster packs. Smoke Grenade - Ok, maybe in an arms dealer deck to save the hide of some kine, but no respectable vampire would waste time equipping such a toy. Tomb of Ramses III - The change from the original basically ruined this card. Maybe if it cost 1 pool instead of 3. It was reprinted in Sabbat War. At least its only in the starters. Tortured Confession - Pay a blood to see your hand?? Hah, I've already destroyed your vamp what's the point? Maybe to see if you have deflection to use with what vampires you have left? Stupid! Stupid! Stupid! Tower of London - cost is too high to be effective. You must perform 4 successful necromancy actions on four different turns before this card becomes better than playing an ascendance. Probably not going to happen except in the most heavy Necromancy action based deck, and even then it can be destroyed before you recoup your loses. It reminds me of when acquired Ventrue assets cost 2 pool. Perhaps in the next reprint they will change the cost of this card to 1 or 0 to bring it into a useful category. Brad Ward Prince of North Las Vegas The Following are Card texts for the above mentioned cards: Abomination Pool Cost: 1 Unique. Requires a ready vampire. +1 stealth action Burn an untapped werewolf ally (such as Renegade Garou, Werewolf Pack or Black Spiral Buddy) in your ready region to put this card in play. This card becomes a unique clanless Independent vampire of 4 capacity with superior Protean. You may move up to 4 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire has +1 strength,gets an additional strike each round and gets an optional maneuver each combat. This vampire may attack any ready minion as a (D) action. Masquer (Wraith) Type(s): Retainer Discipline: Necromancy Blood Cost: 2 Wraith with 1 life. Masquer is immune to damage that is not aggravated. The minion with this retainer gets +1 intercept. You may burn this retainer to give any minion +1 intercept As above, with 2 life Mythic Form Type(s): Combat Discipline: Protean Blood Cost: 3 Play before range is determined on the first round. For the remainder of this combat, this vampire gets +1 strength and can prevent 1 non-aggravated damage each round. A vampire may play only one Mythic Form each combat. As above, but with an optional maneuver, and this vampire can inflict 2R aggravated damage as a strike once each round this combat. Shadow Parasite Type(s): Combat Discipline: Obtenebration Blood Cost: 2 Strike: 3R damage. Only usable at long range. Strike: 4R damage. Only usable at long range. Smoke Grenade Type(s): Equipment Weapon End combat as a strike, only usable at long range. Burn after use. Tomb of Ramses III Pool Cost: 3 Unique Location. When this card is played or the controller of this card changes, you (the new controller) choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen vampire, put a blood counter on the Tomb from the Blood Bank. At the end of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may move the vampire to the ready region. Burn the Tomb (and the counters on it) when the chosen vampire leaves the uncontrolled region. Tortured Confession Type(s): Combat Blood Cost: 1 Only usable when the opposing vampire goes into torpor; not usable by a vampire going into torpor. Combat ends. You may look at the opposing vampire's controller's hand. Tower of London Type(s): Master Clan: Giovanni Pool Cost: 2 Unique Location When an action requiring Necromancy is successful, tap this location to gain 1 pool.

On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:28:29 -0700, "Bradly Ward" <br...@jakescrane.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Mythic Form: I'm sorry, why wouldnt I use Mythic Form over body of sun? It's a heckofa lot better. It's 1 less blood, I get to choose if I use the strike or not (which is 2R agg per round), I dont kill anything on me (not that that's a big deal), I prevent 1 per round, and I get that maneuver. Plus the +1 hand strength? This card is ultimately more flexible and preferable to me. Tomb of Ramses: If you have card limits, this begins to look very tasty. Tower of London: Saying it's wallpaper is just plain wrong. It doesnt cost me a master phase action to use and it cant be killed with an inherent D action (like most pool gaining locations) and nobody will even think of wasting time burning it.

> Abomination - not worth using on Renegade Garou and Werewolf packs aren't > worth putting in a deck. Possibly a Spiral buddy deck could use this card? Well, I don't think about it as a "Wallpaper". Put him in a low Cap Pro deck with lots of !Gangrel, 12+ Rush actions and 3-4 Black Spiral Buddys. > > Masquer (Wraith) - A more expensive version of Raven Spy. Maybe they bumped > its cost because there is a path of bone out there. Don't like the idea of > paying 2 blood and an action to get 1 intercept. But it's INMUNE to non Agg damage. So, look at Marianna and Ambroginio: Both has Nec and THA. ExNihilo one of them and play Weather Controls at will without harming your retainers. Add an Spiritual Protector and Thoughs Betrayed-Trap. Have fun. Yes, expensive and action consuming, but helps alot > Mythic Form - Look its another body of sun, at lease I don't take 3 agg at > inferior. 3 blood just to get stop combat ended. It's an R1 to boot! (at > least I wont get that many) But you don't kill your expensive Dog Pack with it. > Tower of London - cost is too high to be effective. You must perform 4 > successful necromancy actions on four different turns before this card > becomes better than playing an ascendance. Probably not going to happen > except in the most heavy Necromancy action based deck, and even then it can > be destroyed before you recoup your loses. It reminds me of when acquired > Ventrue assets cost 2 pool. Perhaps in the next reprint they will change the > cost of this card to 1 or 0 to bring it into a useful category. Yes, it's not as powerfull as Art Museum-style cards, but it's helps regaining some pool for Giovanni. It's not an incredible card, but it's not wallpaper at all. If you think your deck is going to win any game, you can expect to have 12-16 turns to play. So, if it comes to your hand earlier enough it can help a lot. And don't mention that "It's burnable" you can get it back to your hand with Carlota, Fragment of Sargon or a spare Whisper's from the Dead. Or to your deck with Pochtli or Summon Soul. But I must agree that there are wallpaper in this set, as "Grasp the Ghostly" a 2 blood action to get an equipment card from another ash Heap? And just for 3 turns? No thanks, I save that slot for a Kine Dominance, f.e. Tom,Mad&Co Ibericus Sabbat Inquisitor

"Bradly Ward" <br...@jakescrane.com> (light snip) > I'd like to post some of those new cards which useless if not > wallpaper. Please let me know if im wrong about some of these or add in > other ones you think are uesless too. > > Abomination - not worth using on Renegade Garou and Werewolf packs aren't > worth putting in a deck. Possibly a Spiral buddy deck could use this card? You must make a deck to revolve around it, yes. But each of the abomination you create is worth the effort : 2 strength, an additional strike each round, an optional maneuver, a built in rush action AND Superior protean on the top of that. They are vampires now, and thus are hard to burn or steal. That means they are the *best fighters* of whole v:tes, and they are not unique. The other good thing is, Werewolf pack has a cost that can be reduced by Charisma. You even don't have to use protean except for stealth, actually. Try them in a Malkavian, a Nosferatu or a Ravnos deck with a bunch of Gangrel weenie if you want ! But, as i already mentioned, you must make a dedicated deck. Honest, it's far from wallpaper. > Masquer (Wraith) - A more expensive version of Raven Spy. Maybe they bumped > its cost because there is a path of bone out there. Don't like the idea of > paying 2 blood and an action to get 1 intercept. Masquer rules. Masquer is a permanent source of intercept, exactly like a raven spy. Except that it cannot be burned by a .44 shot or a throwing gate. It cannot be burned by well set weather control. It cannot be stolen either. Someone wants to steal it from you ? just burn it for intercept, and summon him again with compel the spirit next turn. You can also give one intercept to any minion on the table : you can save someone from big bonding bleed, or make your buddy intercept a dangerous political action. Its flexibility is really incredible. And last thing : it's a necromancy action. I tap Tower of London and gain one pool. I play masquer in every Giovanni deck. > Mythic Form - Look its another body of sun, at lease I don't take 3 agg at > inferior. 3 blood just to get stop combat ended. It's an R1 to boot! (at > least I wont get that many) don't look at the inferior version : like many protean combat cards, you'll want to use the superior. What do you have there ? 1 prevention and +1 strength for each round. Okay, Gorrid form also does it for 1 blood only. But you have a bonus: a maneuver with 2R agg damage - a Body flare usable each round !! That means you can burn a vampire, 90% guaranteed. The only thing is : you must see the opponent's hand to be sure he has no combat ends. sometime, you'll catch a vampire off guards without good combat defense. Just play Mythic form and trap, and you burn his vampire. He dodges ? the trap combat will last longer. He prevents ? same thing. This combat card is difficult to use, i'll grant you that but the superior version is very, very nasty. > Shadow Parasite - Hmm, sewer lid that costs 2 blood. Ok so its Obt instead > of Pot. There are only 13 vampires that have Obt/OBT and don't also have > pot/POT. So even in decks that are based around vamps with Obtenebration > they are more likely than not to also have pot/POT. I think this was another > case of the design team figuring on path of shadow being in play and adding > an unwarranted +1 blood cost. Sewer lid rocks this card, a shame it wastes > rare slot in my booster packs. I know it's not a great card, but it's still not wallpaper. I have a !Ventrue deck with Gustav, Quentin , Gerrard and Aurora. I'm actually using this card to inflict damage to unsuspecting opponents. Block a bleed action with Spirit's touch or Eyes of the night and move to long range. I must note that in our metagame, Weapons are becoming more and more common, due to the incoming of Sniper Rifle. You want to snipe me ? 3/4 R for you =) > Smoke Grenade - Ok, maybe in an arms dealer deck to save the hide of some > kine, but no respectable vampire would waste time equipping such a toy. Anti assamite defensive weapon. Gilbert Duane in combat with Assamite Lambda. Vampire hitman moves to long range and plays blood sweat. Gilbert duane plays disguised weapon and Smoke grenade as his strike. Wise Duane also plays a lot of Swallowed by the night to move to long range himself before popping out the grenade. > Tomb of Ramses III - The change from the original basically ruined this > card. Maybe if it cost 1 pool instead of 3. It was reprinted in Sabbat War. > At least its only in the starters. I agree on this =) I wonder why people are still looking after ToR III. I saw people use it for blood gain, coupled with Info Highway, but... Well, influencing out nearly empty vamps can be interesting in 5th trad or Silsilla decks ? > Tortured Confession - Pay a blood to see your hand?? Hah, I've already > destroyed your vamp what's the point? Maybe to see if you have deflection to > use with what vampires you have left? Stupid! Stupid! Stupid! Not a great card either, and every v:tes player agrees there. But i'm sure someone will find a way to use it. Why not in a Lasombra or !Gangrel deck ? as you put vamps in torpor often, you can see if you should focus on another target or stick on the same meth... > Tower of London - cost is too high to be effective. You must perform 4 > successful necromancy actions on four different turns before this card > becomes better than playing an ascendance. Probably not going to happen > except in the most heavy Necromancy action based deck, and even then it can > be destroyed before you recoup your loses. It reminds me of when acquired > Ventrue assets cost 2 pool. Perhaps in the next reprint they will change the > cost of this card to 1 or 0 to bring it into a useful category. No, this is a very, very useful card. Yesterday, i played a game where this Location was put into play on the third turn. The Giov meth played a Masquer : one pool gain. Next turn, he played a shambing horde : one pool gain. Following turn, Jar the soul : One pool. Following turn : Compel the spirit on the masquer he burned to intercept a Disputed territory on the Tower of London : one pool... And he won the game after having gained around 8 pool with this location =/ The good thing with tower of london is, once it's in play, you just tap it when you make successful nec actions. it won't change your strategy, you'll play like before,but with a bonus : it's just net pool gain. And if a meth crosstable is playing necro actions too (say a setite using Shambling hordes to get blood off tempted vampires), you can also gain pool, the cards doesn't check who is doing the actions. Tower of London ? Five stars for me. > Brad Ward > Prince of North Las Vegas reyda --------------------- [ quoted text not captured ]

It really, really, *really* isn't necessary to post the entire previous post when you're only referring to some elements of it. No, really. Especially when it's big. In message <3b42d9b9...@news.flrtn1.occa.home.com>, Jack Crow <no...@nowhere.com> writes >Mythic Form: >I'm sorry, why wouldnt I use Mythic Form over body of sun? It's also Not Bad (tm), as you point out. >Tomb of Ramses: >If you have card limits, this begins to look very tasty. Mostly irrelevant, since the game isn't played by card limits. (This is like saying "Well, look at this card. It's great if we just change the basic rules of the game.") ToR has been seriously neutered. But that's not all bad, since it was *seriously* over-powered. Like, more than that. No, more. More. No, more than that even. The card is still useful, under a number of circumstances. It just isn't a no-brainer to drop in a deck. If you search, you'll find a lot of discussion about pool costs vs blood on vampire etc. It's a difficult decision and a clever Methuselah who can use it decisively in their deck, but it's not useless. >Tower of London: >Saying it's wallpaper is just plain wrong. It doesnt cost me a master >phase action to use and it cant be killed with an inherent D action >(like most pool gaining locations) and nobody will even think of >wasting time burning it. Also, interesting point for corner cases #379: It doesn't require the action to have been taken by you. This is very unlikely to occur, of course, but with Necromancy digging itself a nice little niche, like Animalism had in the first printing way back when, of being this nice little discipline that you might think about throwing half a dozen cards in for..... It could be interesting. That it can also generate pool without costing master phases (once played) like STI etc. do makes it an interesting card to consider, of course. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F "Analogies can be dangerous, Amanda," he begins, smiling B457CA213D7E6 slightly, "because the world is like a sandcastle..." 68C3695D623D5D

> You must make a deck to revolve around it, yes. But each of the abomination > you create is worth the effort : 2 strength, an additional strike each > round, an optional maneuver, a built in rush action AND Superior protean on > the top of that. They are vampires now, and thus are hard to burn or steal. > That means they are the *best fighters* of whole v:tes, and they are not > unique. Not that point. Abomination IS unique. But I agree it's worth it's cost. In a Renegade Garou Deck you'll play small cap gangrel with a few claws. Or in a !Gangrel with lots of rushes and aggDam to torporize other vamps. The abomination final cost (without charisma, of course) is just a net cost of 5: 4 (Black Spiral) +1 (Abomination). And you get a Vamp worth 6-7 pool in Disciplines/Abilities that rushes all over the table. In the right deck, it rocks. Tom,Mad&Co

In message <9hur0m$igc$1...@talia.mad.ttd.net>, "Tom, Mad&Co" <t...@almadrava.net> writes Re: Abomination >In the right deck, it rocks. Indeed. Many "This cards suck" threads often stem from: - I'm never going to use this card - I can't see how to use this card - This card suffers from Seven Line Syndrome - It's combat card and I only play politics - I don't see any situations where this card is better than <X> etc. Rather than any inherent true suckyness in the card. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Bradly Ward" <br...@jakescrane.com> > > Tower of London - cost is too high to be effective. You must perform 4 > successful necromancy actions on four different turns before this card > becomes better than playing an ascendance. Probably not going to happen > except in the most heavy Necromancy action based deck, and even then it can > be destroyed before you recoup your loses. It reminds me of when acquired > Ventrue assets cost 2 pool. Perhaps in the next reprint they will change the > cost of this card to 1 or 0 to bring it into a useful category. This card works beautifully in my Giovanni Tap-Dance Macabre deck... I'm probably going to be Jarring someone's Soul each turn. This nets me 1 pool each time. I gained about 7 or 8 pool this way on Sunday and eventually swept the game. Like Path of Bone, it really depends on how many Necromancy cards you use in your deck. If your Giovanni deck is all DOM/POT, then it sucks. If you're mostly NEC, go for broke. There are however *other* cards that have not been mentioned which are of questionable utility: Tajdid I'm sorry, I know this card eliminates the Assamites' Blood Curse, but to what end? Diablerie with little votes to support you will result in your own vampires being burned. I suppose Fida'i can waste themselves taking the diablerie actions since they're proving to be quite expendable themselves. Khabar: Loyalty It's nice to see the Assamites with an option for speed-influence/pool-gain, but I'm not sure that Assamites can waste actions doing this. Granted, I've only taken the assassins for a spin once since Final Nights was released (and failed miserably), but they still seem *very* difficult to play with. Patshiv The only way this really becomes useful is if you have a small capacity Ravnos taking Patshiv actions every turn to keep blood on a couple of larger Ravnos, but this seems inefficient to me. If large Ravnos have problems with blood, Restoration seems a better option most of the time. Patshiv may be useful if Week of Nightmares is in play, since you presumably have *lots* of Ravnos weenies ready to take advantage of the bleeds/strength bonus. Creepshow Casino I'm not convinced this card is worth spending 2 pool on. It seems quite limited for the cost. Votes, hunting, and rescue actions seem most useful for this, but those all have inherent stealth. I think I'd rather take my chances and just include some transient stealth (if available). Visit from the Capushin The four-card bonus does not last long enough to really make this card useful. I'd rather include an Elder Library and hope that nobody steals it. Crimson Fury Maybe it's just the way I play, but when my vampires are in torpor, I don't *want* other vampires to diablerize them, I want to get them out. Even burning the other vampire at superior means I lose my vampire. I'd rather include an Aid from Bats. Sensory Overload Spend two more blood and Sens Dep them instead. For the limited 'tap' type effect, the blood cost is prohibitive. Not absolutely useless, but not that great either. Pseudo-Blindness Too corner-case. I suppose burning a Lost in Crowds as it is played might be nice once in a while, but the Ravnos have ways to reduce the acting minion's stealth to 0, which has a similar but more potent effect. As for reacting to Chimerstry, how often will your Ravnos face other Ravnos? As with most Chimerstry cards, the blood cost is prohibitive. Deny Not useless by any means, but not really worth a rare slot. Grasp the Ghostly Too corner-case. If the 'grave-robbed' equipment lasted indefinitely, I'd change my mind. Baleful Doll Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I equip it. Relentless Pursuit Not useless, but Potence decks are too tight as is to include this card. An extra Immortal Grapple will be preferrable most of the time, as it also includes a press. Veil of Silence If First Strike was actually useful, this card might be nice. The anti-dodge is ok, but overall, this card is too corner-case for my tastes. Dismemberment of Osiris This card is inferior to Sacrificical Lamb. SL grants you the blood (making up for the 3 blood cost) and equipment and has no restrictions other than the vampire being in torpor. The burn blood/pool clause does not really make up for this. Set's Call Talk about corner-case... how often will a Setite reliably block an ally/retainer action? How long will this wait in your hand while you wait? Save Face Too many restrictions for such a minor effect. =================== In general, I very much like the Final Nights set. There are so many great cards that I feel petty mentioning the not-so-great ones. Free States Rant, Skin of the Adder, Summon Soul, etc. more than make up for the few I mention above. Cheers, WES

In message <9hv8g...@enews4.newsguy.com>, Wes <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> writes >Tajdid >I'm sorry, I know this card eliminates the Assamites' Blood Curse, but to >what end? It's a flavour thing, which isn't terribly bad. >Khabar: Loyalty >It's nice to see the Assamites with an option for speed-influence/pool-gain, >but I'm not sure that Assamites can waste actions doing this. Fida'i + Skill card. Burn 1 blood to untap to get 2 pool. L33t. Or something. >Patshiv >The only way this really becomes useful is if you have a small capacity >Ravnos taking Patshiv actions every turn to keep blood on a couple of larger >Ravnos, but this seems inefficient to me. Add Tribute to the Master. View it as blood to be pooled, not blood for blood's sake. >Creepshow Casino >I'm not convinced this card is worth spending 2 pool on. It seems quite >limited for the cost. Votes, hunting, and rescue actions seem most useful >for this, but those all have inherent stealth. I think I'd rather take my >chances and just include some transient stealth (if available). It's a Ventrue vote card, really. They have no stealth so can get a little there, without having to do the whole Arika/Queen Anne thing. >Visit from the Capushin Agreed. Usable, but there are probably better options in most circumstances. >Crimson Fury >Maybe it's just the way I play, but when my vampires are in torpor, I don't >*want* other vampires to diablerize them, I want to get them out. Even >burning the other vampire at superior means I lose my vampire. Sure. But if it's a small vamp for Arika..... Not something for a whole deck, of course. But it could come in handy. >Sensory Overload >Spend two more blood and Sens Dep them instead. For the limited 'tap' type >effect, the blood cost is prohibitive. Not absolutely useless, but not that >great either. True. But "not that great" is good. Not every card should be "great". >Pseudo-Blindness >Too corner-case. Really? Hmmmmmm.... I guess that's just some sort of taste/meta game thing. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Many "This cards suck" threads often stem from: > > - I'm never going to use this card > - I can't see how to use this card > - This card suffers from Seven Line Syndrome > - It's combat card and I only play politics > - I don't see any situations where this card is better than <X> > >etc. Rather than any inherent true suckyness in the card. Also don't forget: - This card is actually really good and useful, but I want everyone else to think it sucks so that they'll trade all of their copies to me... Halcyan 2

>Creepshow Casino >I'm not convinced this card is worth spending 2 pool on. It seems quite >limited for the cost. Votes, hunting, and rescue actions seem most useful >for this, but those all have inherent stealth. I think I'd rather take my >chances and just include some transient stealth (if available). I'm actually quite excited by Creepshow Casino. I personally prefer Tremere, Toreador, and Ventrue, none of which have any real stealth (Alacrity aside of course). So the Casino can help in vote decks and in all sorts of other cases. I can't tell you how many times my +1 stealth rescue torpor action was blocked by a little casual intercept, the Casino helps take care of that. It'll also help with making sure you get those Rutor's Hands or whatever into play (how about a +4 stealth Magic of the Smith just for kicks?). >Crimson Fury >Maybe it's just the way I play, but when my vampires are in torpor, I don't >*want* other vampires to diablerize them, I want to get them out. Even >burning the other vampire at superior means I lose my vampire. I'd rather >include an Aid from Bats. I don't like Crimson Fury at all. Just to nasty with Reform Body. But with Tariq, Theo, and Samat in the game, there has to be something to discourage and counter more diablerie. (Though I suppose you could always go and dig out those antiquated copies of Sixth Tradition: Destruction). >Baleful Doll >Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also >rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I >equip it. I think it would be too powerful if it *wasn't* unique. Otherwise Baleful Doll would be rather vicious when combined with Pier 13, right? Give the Pier to a weenie and every turn, the weenie taps (and spends a blood) to cause 3 blood to be burned. Summon Soul for more blood... >Set's Call >Talk about corner-case... how often will a Setite reliably block an >ally/retainer action? How long will this wait in your hand while you wait? Corner-case but incredibly powerful. If you succeed, not only does your opponent pay the cost (maybe 2-4 pool) but you also gain a minion. In my opinion, this is very powerful. Now you just have to work on the whole Setite/Auspex thing... Halcyan 2

>Masquer (Wraith) - A more expensive version of Raven Spy. Maybe they bumped >its cost because there is a path of bone out there. Don't like the idea of >paying 2 blood and an action to get 1 intercept. Others have already mentioned the immunity. In addition, don't forget you can burn the Masquer to give *any* minion +1 intercept. Burning it isn't too much of a problem since you can retrieve it later. If needed, you can have weenie Giovanni equip with a Masquer or two and let the larger Giovanni benefit from it. And you can even burn the Masquer to give blocking minions controlled by other Methusalehs much needed intercept. (Once again the concept of "saleable intercept"). Quick question: Can you give intercept at any time? Can you for instance burn the Masquer during your Master phase if you just want to get rid of it? >Mythic Form - Look its another body of sun, at lease I don't take 3 agg at >inferior. 3 blood just to get stop combat ended. It's an R1 to boot! (at >least I wont get that many) While Body of Sun is pretty bad, I do have to point out that it does 3R to your opponent and his retainers (which will wipe out just about any retainer, including the "immune" Wraith ones). >Smoke Grenade - Ok, maybe in an arms dealer deck to save the hide of some >kine, but no respectable vampire would waste time equipping such a toy. Maybe with Pier 13? Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Quick question: Can you give intercept at any time? Can you for instance burn > the Masquer during your Master phase if you just want to get rid of it? No. You can only give intercept to a blocking minion who needs it. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>> Quick question: Can you give intercept at any time? Can you for instance >burn >> the Masquer during your Master phase if you just want to get rid of it? > >No. You can only give intercept to a blocking minion who needs it. Okay, I know we went over this a while ago but to double-check: Are you allowed to tap the Rumour Mill or The Giovanni Investigator at any time? Say use it during the Master phase to give the vampire the ability to get intercept (but not actually giving intercept)? Thanks! Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > > >Creepshow Casino > >I'm not convinced this card is worth spending 2 pool on. It seems quite > >limited for the cost. Votes, hunting, and rescue actions seem most useful > >for this, but those all have inherent stealth. I think I'd rather take my > >chances and just include some transient stealth (if available). > > I'm actually quite excited by Creepshow Casino. I personally prefer Tremere, > Toreador, and Ventrue, none of which have any real stealth (Alacrity aside of > course). So the Casino can help in vote decks and in all sorts of other cases. > I can't tell you how many times my +1 stealth rescue torpor action was blocked > by a little casual intercept, the Casino helps take care of that. It'll also > help with making sure you get those Rutor's Hands or whatever into play (how > about a +4 stealth Magic of the Smith just for kicks?). The huge weakness in the card is that it has to be used up front. Meaning that it won't usually cancel anyone's intercept, it will just prevent them from using it when it would be in vain. It seems to be that it would only be useful when you're playing a vote deck against someone's Raven or Mr. Winthrop or (as you say) casual intercept. And then it will only usually help out on one undirected action per turn. That doesn't seem worth 2 pool to me. About the only use for it would be in a deck built around some undirected action that has no inherent stealth but is pretty cool when you can pull off. I can't think what action card (or permanent-facilitated action) that would be. Someone help me out here... Fred

Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote in message news:3B434F02...@netcom.com... > About the only use for Creepshow Casino would be in a deck built around some undirected > action that has no inherent stealth but is pretty cool when you can pull off. > I can't think what action card (or permanent-facilitated action) that would be. > Someone help me out here... All of these actions are undirected and at no inherent stealth: Black Metamorphosis. Covenant of Blood. Daemonic Possession. Form of Corruption. Grasp the Ghostly. Heart of Darkness. Hidden Pathways. Mass Reality. (superior) Media Influence. Psychic Veil. Shadow of the Beast. (inferior) Whispers from the Dead. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20010704130058...@ng-cl1.aol.com... > >> Quick question: Can you give intercept at any time? Can you for instance > >burn > >> the Masquer during your Master phase if you just want to get rid of it? > > LSJ > >No. You can only give intercept to a blocking minion who needs it. > > Okay, I know we went over this a while ago but to double-check: > > Are you allowed to tap the Rumour Mill or The Giovanni Investigator at any > time? Say use it during the Master phase to give the vampire the ability to get > intercept (but not actually giving intercept)? No. You can only give intercept to a blocking minion who needs it. See the LSJ quote in the message you replied to. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote > I'm actually quite excited by Creepshow Casino. I personally prefer Tremere, > Toreador, and Ventrue, none of which have any real stealth (Alacrity aside of > course). So the Casino can help in vote decks and in all sorts of other cases. > I can't tell you how many times my +1 stealth rescue torpor action was blocked > by a little casual intercept, the Casino helps take care of that. It'll also > help with making sure you get those Rutor's Hands or whatever into play (how > about a +4 stealth Magic of the Smith just for kicks?). Yeah. Rutor's Hand and such would work nicely. However, it only works *once* per turn, and you have to declare it beforehand. I don't think it's worth 2 pool, but we'll see if it ends up being more powerful than I think it is. > >Baleful Doll > >Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also > >rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I > >equip it. > > I think it would be too powerful if it *wasn't* unique. Otherwise Baleful Doll > would be rather vicious when combined with Pier 13, right? Give the Pier to a > weenie and every turn, the weenie taps (and spends a blood) to cause 3 blood to > be burned. Summon Soul for more blood... Well, Pier 13 might actually see some play that way. Besides, the Pier *is* unique so I doubt you'd be able to get that combo working too smoothly... I think. Baleful Doll could work nicely with Society of Leopold, Fear of Mekhet, 'Damaging' cards such as in the other thread. > >Set's Call > >Talk about corner-case... how often will a Setite reliably block an > >ally/retainer action? How long will this wait in your hand while you wait? > > Corner-case but incredibly powerful. If you succeed, not only does your > opponent pay the cost (maybe 2-4 pool) but you also gain a minion. In my > opinion, this is very powerful. Now you just have to work on the whole > Setite/Auspex thing... Of course, but unless you're playing beside an ally deck, it's so much useless cardboard. Maybe we'll see a lot more ally decks now... In any case, I have *three* Set's Calls, and I don't think I'll need them all. Anybody want one? Cheers, WES

On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 01:28:29 -0700, "Bradly Ward" <br...@jakescrane.com> wrote: >There has been a lot of raving and raving about how great the FN cards are. >I do think this is a great set with lots of great cards. However, there are >some not so great cards in this set. In fact there are some downright >useless cards. I'd like to post some of those new cards which useless if not >wallpaper. Please let me know if im wrong about some of these or add in >other ones you think are uesless too. The card text for each of the cards >are at the bottom. > [snip list] I'll trade you some Night Moves for any of these cards you want to get rid of, except Tortured Confession and Smoke Grenade, of which I have enough already. ;-)

>> Are you allowed to tap the Rumour Mill or The Giovanni Investigator at any >> time? Say use it during the Master phase to give the vampire the ability >to get >> intercept (but not actually giving intercept)? > >No. You can only give intercept to a blocking minion who needs it. > >See the LSJ quote in the message you replied to. Yeah that's what I thought. During the FN Pre-Release a while back, I put a Temptation on the Investigator (didn't read the text too clearly). In any case, she was empty but instead of hunting, my prey would tap her during his master phase so that she was tapped and empty (thus no reason for me to Tempt her during my turn). I didn't think it was legal but oh well... Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > Are you allowed to tap the Rumour Mill or The Giovanni Investigator at any > time? Say use it during the Master phase to give the vampire the ability to get > intercept (but not actually giving intercept)? No. Rumor Mill makes explicit reference to the "current action". Marciana's ability is similar and has an implicit "current action" scope. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Mike Perlman" <evil_p...@moc.yahoo.com> > > I'll trade you some Night Moves for any of these cards you want to get > rid of, except Tortured Confession and Smoke Grenade, of which I have > enough already. ;-) I hear you on the Tortured Confessions, but Smoke Grenade is R2. How many do you have? Cheers, WES

Two, I think. (and that's enough :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

>>Tomb of Ramses: >>If you have card limits, this begins to look very tasty. > >Mostly irrelevant, since the game isn't played by card limits. > >(This is like saying "Well, look at this card. It's great if we just >change the basic rules of the game.") > Some people still do use card limits. This is fact. *Most* people who play VTESC, do not play "tourney style" and find such cards nice. Like playing with (old)Type I restricted cards in magic without having the lotus and moxen. So what.

>There has been a lot of raving and raving about how great the FN cards are. >I do think this is a great set with lots of great cards. Last I thought about it, I think the grade I'd give the set is A-. A few comments about what you wrote, then some cards I have issues with. >Masquer (Wraith) - A more expensive version of Raven Spy. Maybe they bumped >its cost because there is a path of bone out there. Don't like the idea of >paying 2 blood and an action to get 1 intercept. I've played with them. I think they're fine. The 2 blood cost is justifiable. I can see putting them into a lot of Giovanni decks. >Shadow Parasite - <snip> Not the only non-independent discipline (NID?) card I have problems with. >Tower of London - cost is too high to be effective. You must perform 4 >successful necromancy actions on four different turns before this card >becomes better than playing an ascendance. Probably not going to happen >except in the most heavy Necromancy action based deck, and even then it can >be destroyed before you recoup your loses. It reminds me of when acquired >Ventrue assets cost 2 pool. Perhaps in the next reprint they will change the >cost of this card to 1 or 0 to bring it into a useful category. I haven't found it difficult to do a necromancy action every turn. It should end up being much like a hunting ground. The initial gain is even sooner. Here are some cards I haven't seen mentioned that I have issues with, though I hesitate to say they all suck. The Quietus batch: Blood of the Cobra Eruption of Vitae Exuding Blood Vascular Explosion Redundant. Quietus already had highly similar strikes. Why add more when you could give them something else more interesting instead? I don't see where it needed more long range strikes or anything as expensive as Vascular. One of our players' complaints is that quietus is no better than potence as a combat discipline and a lot more expensive. I don't argue with him. The NID batch: Ecstatic Agony Malleable Visage In general, the NID cards seem inelegant or inappropriate. Some look good. Some don't. They don't seem to fit what the disciplines needed well enough. Struggling to put it into words - they just seem half-assed. Canopic Jar - complicated for what? Contingency Planning - the "I *really* don't want to kill my grand prey" card, should be far better uses for the card slots Fata Amria - after trying to read this a number of times, I think I know what it does, which is nothing, I'm pretty sure the inferior is better than the superior as you are more likely to cause the effect to kick in if you do something like Haven the vamp and swarm it

>Here are some cards I haven't seen mentioned that I have issues with, though >I >hesitate to say they all suck. >Eruption of Vitae Yeah, this seems like a classic Thaumaturgy-type card (really weird and limited to second round combat). But with Celerity, 2nd-round isn't as hard to get to (though you're usually better off sticking with additional strikes in the 1st). At the very least, you can use this to help deal with hand jam? And unlike the somewhat similar Eldritch Glimmer, the additional damage might really help burn a vampire. In fact, for a price, you can deal enough damage to burn a normal vampire with this single card. >Exuding Blood >Vascular Explosion I don't see a problem with these two, both of which are variations of Blood Sweat. Adding a variety of unpreventable damage strikes actually makes the Assamites more useful as opposed to getting some sort of "weird" strikes that might not have helped. Exuding does less damage but is free. Vascular is notable b/c it's unpreventable damage at close range. I actually see some analogies to the "Blood Rage / Blood Fury / Soul Burn" trio. Now you can tailor unpreventable strikes to whatever your deck needs. >Ecstatic Agony I agree that this card came out of nowhere. And though I doubt I'll use it much, it has *some* uses. It's ideal for Trap decks. It would be also be really amusing to see it work with Masochism. And since there is no card text prohibiting it, I don't see why you can't have multiple Ecstatic Agonies on a vampire. Get 3 Ecstatics and then Trap a combat. If you take a single point of damage, you have +3 strength next round! And at superior you can a possible press. This could potentially be good for the Tremere (since it's so hard to get Apportations) and their 2nd round combat. >Malleable Visage Kind of weird. Seems related to Hidden Lurker, Fast Reaction, and Mask of a Thousand but I think it'll be good for the Tzimisce. They can be scary in combat and this card'll just make people more wary of blocking them. >Canopic Jar - complicated for what? Sucks overall. In sealed-deck it is actually good since it's one of the few sources of Setite intercept. >Contingency Planning - the "I *really* don't want to kill my grand prey" >card, >should be far better uses for the card slots Agreed. Maybe it was made by someone who wants to make sure Return to Innocence is banned? Halcyan 2

Jack Crow wrote: > > >>Tomb of Ramses: > >>If you have card limits, this begins to look very tasty. > > > >Mostly irrelevant, since the game isn't played by card limits. > > > >(This is like saying "Well, look at this card. It's great if we just > >change the basic rules of the game.") > > > Some people still do use card limits. This is fact. *Most* people who > play VTESC, do not play "tourney style" and find such cards nice. I'm not sure exactly what you mean but almost everyone I've played with informally in the last 2 1/2 years (with the exception of one group that I only played with once or twice) essentially played/has played/still plays (as applicable) VEKN tourney rules. The slight exception is that the groups will tend to allow Return to Innocence as recommended by VEKN and possibly will tolerate greater than 90 card decks on occasion. A few of 'em like the occasional ante game once in a blue moon. Other than that, it's pretty much straight tourney rules. Fred

> >Crimson Fury > >Maybe it's just the way I play, but when my vampires are in torpor, I don't > >*want* other vampires to diablerize them, I want to get them out. Even > >burning the other vampire at superior means I lose my vampire. I'd rather > >include an Aid from Bats. > > I don't like Crimson Fury at all. Just to nasty with Reform Body. But with > Tariq, Theo, and Samat in the game, there has to be something to discourage and > counter more diablerie. (Though I suppose you could always go and dig out those > antiquated copies of Sixth Tradition: Destruction). Crimson Fury is a fine, fine card! Note, it does not have to be played whilst you are in torpor, it also fights off Anathama! It is better than reform body, since it hurts the other dude, and you could quite easily build a good deck around it (remember - you can't get rushed in torpor!). It stops those cheeky !Gangrel doing a Rush / Anathama / Gangrel Conspiracy, if nothing else. A great prayer card, and useable in a full deck! Cards I didn't like were Fleecing The Gajee (not worth including), Patshiv (too hard to use often enough), all the chimestry combat cards (poor compared to even the setites now!). In fact, the Ravnos got largely a rough draw, except for the path, Reality (the cost, though! and Younger vampires means big bloaters only), and Mirror Image, with a small nod to Red Herring - even though it's hard to get excited about a card that lets you take your go back! Some Assamite cards are a bit not good too. Blood of the cobra - why? Agree with Shadow Parasite being awful. Even with the path of the night. Abomination was not awful, it was fairly good. It's just not a strategy card, it's a bit of gloss. Zilahs Valley I am not sure about. DH DH

>Crimson Fury is a fine, fine card! Note, it does not have to be played >whilst you are in torpor, it also fights off Anathama! It is better >than reform body, since it hurts the other dude, and you could quite >easily build a good deck around it (remember - you can't get rushed in >torpor!). You mean Amaranth, not Anathema, right? =) >Cards I didn't like were Fleecing The Gajee (not worth including), I thought Fleecing the Gaje was a very good card. It's extremely flexible. Anti-equipment and anti-retainer and, if all else fails, you can just get a blood. (Though it has to be against a younger vampire and it's at 0-stealth). But still it is extremely versatile. >Zilahs Valley I am not sure about. The Valley is awesome! One of the best things since ToRIII. It really makes playing high-caps much more viable. Halcyan 2

In message <3b43f220...@news.flrtn1.occa.home.com>, Jack Crow <no...@nowhere.com> writes >>(This is like saying "Well, look at this card. It's great if we just >>change the basic rules of the game.") >> >Some people still do use card limits. This is fact. Some people probably try and fling the cards at each other to give each other nasty paper cuts. Your point? [ quoted text not captured ]

> Tower of London - cost is too high to be effective. You must perform 4 > successful necromancy actions on four different turns before this card > becomes better than playing an ascendance. Probably not going to happen > except in the most heavy Necromancy action based deck, and even then it > can be destroyed before you recoup your loses. Turn one master: Tower of London. Turn one minion: Haunt the Tower. Tap Tower. Turn two master: Rack. Turn two minion: Haunt the Rack. Tap Tower. Turn three master: Powerbase: Chicago. Turn three minion: Haunt Chicago. Tap Tower. Turn four master: Powerbase: Washington. Turn four minion: Haunt Washington. Tap Tower. (etc.) Beats the heck out of four Ascendances, doesn't it?

emmits...@hotmail.com (Emmit Svenson) wrote in message news:<75bdf7ed.01070...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Protected Powerbases? HAUNT ROCKS!

On Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:22:01 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In message <3b43f220...@news.flrtn1.occa.home.com>, Jack Crow ><no...@nowhere.com> writes >>>(This is like saying "Well, look at this card. It's great if we just >>>change the basic rules of the game.") >>> >>Some people still do use card limits. This is fact. > >Some people probably try and fling the cards at each other to give each >other nasty paper cuts. > >Your point? Rules that have been changed are not always followed because it hinders the fun for the majority of the players. My group doesnt allow NCL because some people are new, some people are oldschool with 5million cards. 4CL is a tradition that a significant number of actual VTES players, see fit to retain. Comparing 4CL to flinging cards is a waste of bandwidth.

In message <3b4530a5....@news.flrtn1.occa.home.com>, Jack Crow <no...@nowhere.com> writes >Rules that have been changed are not always followed because it >hinders the fun for the majority of the players. NL has not "been changed". It's been a basic rule of V:TES since its creation. >My group doesnt allow >NCL because some people are new Ah. So they can't use the commons they can get easy access to. The argument of both how and why restrictions on card numbers is detrimental to new players, because of the generic lack of redundancy in many areas. Please provide a coherent argument which explains both how and why card limits in V:TES benefit new players. (Assume all numbers below work on a 4 card limit. Multiply up or down as necessary.) Points to include: 1) Why it is useful for them to not be able to play 8 copies of Bewitching Oration, instead having to find 4 copies of Awe and 4 copies of Bewitching Oration. 2) In a more general abstract sense, why they shouldn't be able to use lots of the cheap commons they can get hold off. (Buying three or four starters will get you enough to make a coherent deck, especially combined with the pre-con starters etc.) Candidates are advised to spend not less than 500 words on this answer. Do not write on both side of the piece of paper. Allow at least 5 minutes for re-reading and correction. Answer this question in the separate answer booklet. >, some people are oldschool with >5million cards. Try not being selfish and share cards occasionally? "Hi James." "Hi <X>. "I'm toying with this new Gangrel deck idea. But I don't have the cards. Would it be alright if I borrowed a few cards, so I could try it out? And then trade for them with people once I have an idea of what I need? I'm not sure if going for those Garous and Body Flares is worth it, you see." "Sure." What's so difficult? >4CL is a tradition that a significant number of actual >VTES players, see fit to retain. xCL is a "tradition" in the sense that some people foisted it upon the game. It has never been an official part of the game. I can name a number of "traditions" that significant numbers of players have also managed which inherently break the game from how it was intended. (For instance, not announcing what action you are taking because the Jyhad rule-book didn't spell it out for them that you had to announce everything about an action. Not announcing what strike etc. you are using until they resolve.) The argument should not be based on numbers, it should be based on facts, constructive arguments and so forth. Aside: Galileo had many people around him seeing their tradition as fit to retain. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F It's me Nono small robot you know - friend of Ulysses B457CA213D7E6 It's me Nono small robot you know - friend of Ulysses 68C3695D623D5D

In article <tk5k43a...@corp.supernews.com>, "Bradly Ward" <br...@jakescrane.com> wrote: >Abomination Not the most useful of cards, but a deck could be built to exploit it. Plus, it has +3 fun. >Masquer (Wraith) Permanent intercept for the Giovanni, hard to kill (even if they have the agg strike, most people will just flame the vampire instead), and you can burn it to sell. What's not to like? >Shadow Parasite Not something I'd use. You could design a deck around this card (actually The Lasombra is in the process of doing so, trading for all our Shadow Parasites), if you don't go with ordinary Lasombra (weenies, or out of clan). >Smoke Grenade Potentially useful, but an entire action for ending one combat seems expensive. Disguised, it gets much better. >Tortured Confession You wouldn't pack your deck with them, but a nasty combat deck without auspex could make use of the recon info. >Tower of London Now this thing just plain rocks. "Gain one pool per turn for doing what you intended to do anyway." In article <9hv8g...@enews4.newsguy.com>, "Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: >Khabar: Loyalty I'm sure Assamites appreciate the pool gain. >Visit from the Capuchin Any deck that tends to jam up, such as bruise'n'bleed, could benefit from this thing. >Crimson Fury Tzimisce. Reform Body. Cackle. >Set's Call Serpentis+Auspex or Serpentis+Animalism. Kinda corner-case, but very nice when usable. Not that mine is my currently-built Setite deck... Now, the card that I don't really like is Club Zombie. Yeah it's a hunting ground and an intercept location, but it's only one per turn. It's far from wallpaper, but four pool is a lot for this location. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail: santiago [at] umug [dot] org || Web: http://santiago.umug.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Ceci n'est pas un 'sig block'."

>Now, the card that I don't really like is Club Zombie. Yeah it's a >hunting ground and an intercept location, but it's only one per turn. >It's far from wallpaper, but four pool is a lot for this location. Interestingly enough, wasn't someone proposing a generic HG for 3 pool a while ago? Seemed to have been plenty of people who would have used it and so now we have something similar for 4 pool. Yeah, 4 pool is a bit of an investment for something that can easily be taken down by an Arson. Best used with Haunt (or the less useful Guard Duty or the rarely ever seen Consecration Rites). At the very least, Club Zombie provides some intercept that will likely be used to intercept actions directed against it. But still, it is rather flexible. And don't forget that it's technically not a Hunting Ground (and is not restricted to the "one blood from a HG for a vampire). Meaning that CZ + an HG = 2 blood for a given vampire. Anyway, it'll help make "Party" decks even more interesting (Club Zombie, Creepshow Casino, Succubus Club, Hunt Club, Rack, Fetish Club HG, Rave, Ecstasy, Vampiric Disease... =) Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > > >Now, the card that I don't really like is Club Zombie. Yeah it's a > >hunting ground and an intercept location, but it's only one per turn. > >It's far from wallpaper, but four pool is a lot for this location. > > Interestingly enough, wasn't someone proposing a generic HG for 3 pool a while > ago? Seemed to have been plenty of people who would have used it and so now we > have something similar for 4 pool. 4 pool is just too much for this function. Actually, I'm personally not sure I'd ever pay 3 for a generic hunting ground. The difference between 2 and 3 seems much larger to me then a lot of people here give it credit for. The same between 3 and 4. Two hunting grounds are much more powerful than one Club Zombie IMHO. Granted, two hunting grounds are an master phase action so it's not a precise apples-to-apples comparison. But close enough to bring the matter into perspective. If Club Zombie only cost 3, I _might_ use it occasionally. I can't picture ever using it at 4 right now - though as always, I might change my mind if I see others using it effectively. Fred

In message <3B45D201...@netcom.com>, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> writes >> Interestingly enough, wasn't someone proposing a generic HG for 3 pool a while >> ago? Seemed to have been plenty of people who would have used it and so now we >> have something similar for 4 pool. > >4 pool is just too much for this function. The flexibility of that and intercept is interesting, however, if a touch expensive in absolute cost terms. I am still undecided whether: KRCG (2 pool) + Hunting Ground (2 pool) + Genericness (+ X? ) + Reduced card slot requirement (+ Y? ) + Increased vulnerability (- A? ) + Either/or tapping requirement (- B? ) --------------------------------------------- Club Zombie (4 pool) is "good" value or not, for the price. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> > > >Now, the card that I don't really like is Club Zombie. > 4 pool is just too much for this function. Actually, I'm personally not sure I'd > ever pay 3 for a generic hunting ground. The difference between 2 and 3 seems > much larger to me then a lot of people here give it credit for. The same between > 3 and 4. Two hunting grounds are much more powerful than one Club Zombie IMHO. > Granted, two hunting grounds are an master phase action so it's not a precise > apples-to-apples comparison. But close enough to bring the matter into perspective. > If Club Zombie only cost 3, I _might_ use it occasionally. I can't picture ever > using it at 4 right now - though as always, I might change my mind if I see others > using it effectively. I'm already using it in my 'François Villon catch you with a gun' deck. Basically it's a deck with a lot of 2nd trad intercept, disguised weapons and 44 magnums, starring François, Klaus and Great. The intercept & hunting ground versatility is nice, but i use it mainly to spend 4 to get low on pool so i can walk in the labyrinth to call a parity shift on my prey. That's that simple.

In message <0yvdBcKZ...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes > KRCG (2 pool) + Inability to offer it round (- C? ) >+ Hunting Ground (2 pool) >+ Genericness (+ X? ) >+ Reduced card slot requirement (+ Y? ) >+ Increased vulnerability (- A? ) >+ Either/or tapping requirement (- B? ) >--------------------------------------------- > Club Zombie (4 pool) -- [ quoted text not captured ]

Reyda wrote: > > "Frederick Scott" <fre...@netcom.com> > > > I can't picture ever using it at 4 right now - though as always, > > I might change my mind if I see others using it effectively. > > I'm already using it in my 'François Villon catch you with a gun' deck. > Basically it's a deck with a lot of 2nd trad intercept, disguised weapons > and 44 magnums, starring François, Klaus and Great. The intercept & hunting > ground versatility is nice, but i use it mainly to spend 4 to get low on > pool so i can walk in the labyrinth to call a parity shift on my prey. That's cool. Sometimes you can make an advantage out of a disadvantage. In this case, you need to lower your pool in order to call Parity Shift effectively so it's good to have expensive things you can spend pool on. Especially if they're really nice things to have, which CZ definitely is. I'm not sure spending scads of pool on a single master card is a common trait deckbuilders need very often, though. Fred

In article <XQR1pnNj...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > KRCG (2 pool) >+ Inability to offer it round (- C? ) >+ Hunting Ground (2 pool) >+ Genericness (+ X? ) >+ Reduced card slot requirement (+ Y? ) >+ Increased vulnerability (- A? ) >+ Either/or tapping requirement (- B? ) >--------------------------------------------- > Club Zombie (4 pool) Well, actually figure that Club Zombie is a Hunting Ground and a Rumor Mill in one--you get blood every turn, but using the intercept costs one blood (though you lose the flexibility of putting blood not on the vampire who is blocking). Total cost there is 3 pool, plus having an appropriate clan member out (not really a problem for most decks). Thus, for saving a card slot and a master phase action, you pay one pool. Since you could simply Ascend with the master phase action you saved, the cost seems to be reasonable after all. However, the intercept is no longer saleable, which is a minus, and the something this big and useful just screams "Dispute Me!", which not even the Haunting can stop, since votes aren't directed. Plus, with two separate locations, I can choose to only pay for the one that will come in useful in the current game, particularly if I'm low on pool and want to be efficient. So, while I no longer considered it grossly expensive, it's still not something that suits my play style. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Pretty much only for Parity Shift, but the Disputed Territory of the High Museum in that deck (that I'm sure it has, if he has a copy =) starts to put together a good deck. Sprinkle with Zillah's Valley, yet *another* 4+ pool Master, and you can pretty consistently drop your pool down to Parity Shift it back. However, outside of that, the High Museum is really a goofy Ascendance. (Unless you're doing Tzimisce Guard Duty decks, or Haunting it...man, how I love Haunt.) CZ isn't as goofy, but possibly a bit overcosted (due to the "non-saleable" part). I actually think it's best in Weenie decks, where clans for Hunting Grounds are hard to come by, but those decks need the 4 pool for another minion or two more than they need the one intercept, I'd think. Have to ask Mike Perlman, the Weeniemonger, if he'd use Club Zombie or not. =) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

Santiago wrote: > Well, actually figure that Club Zombie is a Hunting Ground and a > Rumor Mill in one--you get blood every turn, but using the intercept > costs one blood (though you lose the flexibility of putting blood not on > the vampire who is blocking). Total cost there is 3 pool, plus having > an appropriate clan member out (not really a problem for most decks). > Thus, for saving a card slot and a master phase action, you pay one > pool. Since you could simply Ascend with the master phase action you > saved, the cost seems to be reasonable after all. However, the > intercept is no longer saleable, which is a minus, and the something > this big and useful just screams "Dispute Me!", which not even the > Haunting can stop, since votes aren't directed. Plus, with two separate > locations, I can choose to only pay for the one that will come in useful > in the current game, particularly if I'm low on pool and want to be > efficient. So, while I no longer considered it grossly expensive, it's > still not something that suits my play style. You're also missing that it requires two separate effects to get rid of two separate locations and nothing at all can ever get rid of the pool from the Ascend. You could think of a straight bleed as doing the latter, I suppose. That would be a third separate action. Fred

> In article <XQR1pnNj...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>, James Coupe > <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > >> KRCG (2 pool) >> + Inability to offer it round (- C? ) >> + Hunting Ground (2 pool) >> + Genericness (+ X? ) >> + Reduced card slot requirement (+ Y? ) >> + Increased vulnerability (- A? ) >> + Either/or tapping requirement (- B? ) >> --------------------------------------------- >> Club Zombie (4 pool) > > Well, actually figure that Club Zombie is a Hunting Ground and a > Rumor Mill in one--you get blood every turn, but using the intercept > costs one blood (though you lose the flexibility of putting blood not on > the vampire who is blocking). Total cost there is 3 pool, plus having > an appropriate clan member out (not really a problem for most decks). That's really a fantastic way of looking at it, considering the blood "lost" for the intercept, which does make it pretty much a Rumor Mill. Well done! > Thus, for saving a card slot and a master phase action, you pay one > pool. Since you could simply Ascend with the master phase action you > saved, the cost seems to be reasonable after all. However, the > intercept is no longer saleable, which is a minus, A BIG minus, IME. But I'm with the Wackos that like the London Evening Star over the Kroger Radio. > and the something > this big and useful just screams "Dispute Me!", which not even the > Haunting can stop, since votes aren't directed. Alas, neither can Guard Duty. And while that's only one card, I haven't seen a vote deck that wasn't packing a Disputed Territory in...actually, I can't remember. Let's say 90+% of the time. (resist urge to discuss corner cases using Enzo) > Plus, with two separate > locations, I can choose to only pay for the one that will come in useful > in the current game, particularly if I'm low on pool and want to be > efficient. So, while I no longer considered it grossly expensive, it's > still not something that suits my play style. I have to agree. That disadvantage, combined with the non-saleablity, kind of makes one wish it would be like a regular Hunting Ground; no tapping, you just get the blood for having it, so that "can't sell" and "all eggs in one basket" equal the card slot and the Master Phase. I think it would have been a very GOOD card, then, but 4 pool and "Unique" would keep it in check. As it is, it's o.k., but not much more than that. I'm glad it's rare. [ quoted text not captured ]

"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote > The flexibility of that and intercept is interesting, however, if a > touch expensive in absolute cost terms. > > I am still undecided whether: > > KRCG (2 pool) > + Hunting Ground (2 pool) > + Genericness (+ X? ) > + Reduced card slot requirement (+ Y? ) > + Increased vulnerability (- A? ) > + Either/or tapping requirement (- B? ) > --------------------------------------------- > Club Zombie (4 pool) > > is "good" value or not, for the price. Don't forget the benefit of being able to play it before your first vampire hits the table. That's a nice benefit. 4 is still too much, though. - Jason Bell

Wes wrote: >Tajdid >I'm sorry, I know this card eliminates the Assamites' Blood Curse, but to >what end? Diablerie with little votes to support you will result in your own >vampires being burned. I suppose Fida'i can waste themselves taking the >diablerie actions since they're proving to be quite expendable themselves. If I wanted to be sure of getting rip of torporized vampires, I would prefer Sacrificial Lamb. Fida'i suck (and in a bad way). >Khabar: Loyalty >It's nice to see the Assamites with an option for speed-influence/pool-gain, >but I'm not sure that Assamites can waste actions doing this. Granted, I've >only taken the assassins for a spin once since Final Nights was released >(and failed miserably), but they still seem *very* difficult to play with. A little speed/pool gain is always nice. It certainly beats Heartblood of the Clan. >Patshiv >The only way this really becomes useful is if you have a small capacity >Ravnos taking Patshiv actions every turn to keep blood on a couple of larger >Ravnos, but this seems inefficient to me. If large Ravnos have problems with >blood, Restoration seems a better option most of the time. Patshiv may be >useful if Week of Nightmares is in play, since you presumably have *lots* of >Ravnos weenies ready to take advantage of the bleeds/strength bonus. If you're going weenie/progeny Ravnos with Tribute to the Master, I could see a use for it. >Creepshow Casino >I'm not convinced this card is worth spending 2 pool on. It seems quite >limited for the cost. Votes, hunting, and rescue actions seem most useful >for this, but those all have inherent stealth. I think I'd rather take my >chances and just include some transient stealth (if available). It's certainly going into my Ventrue vote deck. I might cut down to just one of whatshername that has +1 stealth on voting. >Visit from the Capushin >The four-card bonus does not last long enough to really make this card >useful. I'd rather include an Elder Library and hope that nobody steals it. Yeah. I'm sure it has some corner-case uses, though. Help with Shock Troops, perhaps? >Crimson Fury >Maybe it's just the way I play, but when my vampires are in torpor, I don't >*want* other vampires to diablerize them, I want to get them out. Even >burning the other vampire at superior means I lose my vampire. I'd rather >include an Aid from Bats. And it costs one blood! When my vampires are in torpor, it's usually because they *don't* have any blood... >Sensory Overload >Spend two more blood and Sens Dep them instead. For the limited 'tap' type >effect, the blood cost is prohibitive. Not absolutely useless, but not that >great either. Agree. >Pseudo-Blindness >Too corner-case. I suppose burning a Lost in Crowds as it is played might be >nice once in a while, but the Ravnos have ways to reduce the acting minion's >stealth to 0, which has a similar but more potent effect. As for reacting to >Chimerstry, how often will your Ravnos face other Ravnos? As with most >Chimerstry cards, the blood cost is prohibitive. >Deny >Not useless by any means, but not really worth a rare slot. If only the stealth had been at inferior, dem-weenies could have used it. On second thoughts, perhaps we don't want a discipline that provides both stealth and bleed at inferior, though. >Grasp the Ghostly >Too corner-case. If the 'grave-robbed' equipment lasted indefinitely, I'd >change my mind. Although it's still hard to trust people to play with and burn useful equipment. >Baleful Doll >Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also >rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I >equip it. Combined with Path of Bones and London Towers, the cost looks a lot better. And I suppose you could keep a particular Vampire out of action with this and Jar the Soul. >Relentless Pursuit >Not useless, but Potence decks are too tight as is to include this card. An >extra Immortal Grapple will be preferrable most of the time, as it also >includes a press. And Pot-decks don't want to go to second round anyway, unless they have another IG on hand. >Veil of Silence >If First Strike was actually useful, this card might be nice. The anti-dodge >is ok, but overall, this card is too corner-case for my tastes. Quite. >Dismemberment of Osiris >This card is inferior to Sacrificical Lamb. SL grants you the blood (making >up for the 3 blood cost) and equipment and has no restrictions other than >the vampire being in torpor. The burn blood/pool clause does not really make >up for this. At least DoO's usable by a weenie. But Amam the Devourer is really your man when it comes to burn vampires in torpor. >Set's Call >Talk about corner-case... how often will a Setite reliably block an >ally/retainer action? How long will this wait in your hand while you wait? At least the effect is powerful. And there are more Settites with Auspex these days. >Save Face >Too many restrictions for such a minor effect. At least it's one of the better disciplineless combat cards. Not that that's saying much, though. I also don't believe in: Club Zombie (4 pool for the location everyone will want to steal?!) Final Nights (Why would I want to play this?) Lupine Assault (Except when you want people to dump a lot of cards into their ashheaps. Giovanni, possibly.) Rafastio Ghoul (3 pool!? Ouch!) Shadow Parasite (No thanks. I really can't see any use for this one.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> "Knowledge is power. Power corrupts."

"Johan Lundstrom" <jo...@algonet.se> wrote > > >Khabar: Loyalty > >It's nice to see the Assamites with an option for speed-influence/pool-gain, > >but I'm not sure that Assamites can waste actions doing this. Granted, I've > >only taken the assassins for a spin once since Final Nights was released > >(and failed miserably), but they still seem *very* difficult to play with. > > A little speed/pool gain is always nice. It certainly beats Heartblood > of the Clan. Yeah. The intention of the card is good; it's just that Assamites don't exactly have a lot of time to take these actions nor deck-space to waste on such a card. In my limited experience, they need to focus on rushing and burning just as much as POT rush decks. They can't waste their actions on frivolous cards like this, especially if they are 'older' Assamites. How many times do you see Brujah decks Enchanting Kindred at superior? Same thing... > >Patshiv > >The only way this really becomes useful is if you have a small capacity > >Ravnos taking Patshiv actions every turn to keep blood on a couple of larger > >Ravnos, but this seems inefficient to me. If large Ravnos have problems with > >blood, Restoration seems a better option most of the time. Patshiv may be > >useful if Week of Nightmares is in play, since you presumably have *lots* of > >Ravnos weenies ready to take advantage of the bleeds/strength bonus. > > If you're going weenie/progeny Ravnos with Tribute to the Master, I > could see a use for it. Well, I guess... except the similar card that the Sabbat has doesn't see a lot of use and with that you can at least use weenies from any Sabbat clan. Limiting yourself to Ravnos weenies is too limiting as there just aren't that many. Ravnos, in general, need their blood and that hasn't changed since Path of Paradox has been available. So I think this card is better as a way to keep your fattie Ravnos stocked up on the red stuff. The problem is, it doesn't do as well at this task as the Fortitude cards. I'm still testing it out though--I don't think it's completely useless... > >Baleful Doll > >Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also > >rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I > >equip it. > > Combined with Path of Bones and London Towers, the cost looks a lot > better. And I suppose you could keep a particular Vampire out of > action with this and Jar the Soul. But as it is unique, we're limited in how much we can really rely on this card. Sure, as soon as you burn one you can make another, but it seems too inefficient. > >Save Face > >Too many restrictions for such a minor effect. > > At least it's one of the better disciplineless combat cards. Not that > that's saying much, though. Maybe the Tremere could use it, especially since Apportations are more scarce than in times past. They could also occasionally use an extra blood in round two to pay for something nasty. > I also don't believe in: > > Club Zombie (4 pool for the location everyone will want to steal?!) I haven't brought it out yet but I do like it. > Final Nights (Why would I want to play this?) Actually, this works nicely with Free States Rant and Honor the Elders. If all your vampires are fatties, you'll be more or less unaffected while any weenie to mid-cap is going to be suffering big time. The biggest problem with this card is that you are affecting the whole table--not a great way to make friends. > Lupine Assault (Except when you want people to dump a lot of cards > into their ashheaps. Giovanni, possibly.) If you know your opponents are saving up cards for a special nasty move against you... bang. > Rafastio Ghoul (3 pool!? Ouch!) Burst of Sunlight doesn't affect them... they can play Cryptic Missions, Theft of Vitae, etc. Combined with Succubi and Thadius Zho, you have a very fast set up. Rafastios can even hire themselves if need be. I like these guys a lot, though their use is probably limited to CM decks and not much else. > Shadow Parasite (No thanks. I really can't see any use for this one.) Damn, then I can't trade you mine? Cheers, WES

Yes, I CAN be drawn into any "cards that suck" discussion. In case newbies to the group don't realize, I'm of the camp that believes that almost every card is useful in a given situation, and that people just haven't figured out a way to use them properly yet. Witness: Temptation of Greater Power, which took FIVE (5) YEARS for someone to haul out and make "go" properly. Now, I'm going to idly comment on that as well, and point out that ANYONE saying "This card has no use" is going to get some pretty raw, open scorn from me (and others), unless they intend to back it up with some sort of VALID reasoning. There have been far too many instances of people "discovering" cards and making them work in this game's history for any sensible person to be running around claiming that "X card sucks"... so if you want to be so gung-ho about bashing the set (you know who you are), go for it, but you DO look like fools and will look even more so later. On with the show! =) On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 10:17:40 -0400, "Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: >This card works beautifully in my Giovanni Tap-Dance Macabre deck... I'm >probably going to be Jarring someone's Soul each turn. This nets me 1 pool >each time. I gained about 7 or 8 pool this way on Sunday and eventually >swept the game. Like Path of Bone, it really depends on how many Necromancy >cards you use in your deck. If your Giovanni deck is all DOM/POT, then it >sucks. If you're mostly NEC, go for broke. As Pat commented, Tower of London is great for a deck that intends to take a shitload of NEC actions. Cost 2, MINIMUM of 12 turns per game... take 3 NEC actions, you're up one pool. This means that if your deck only works 1/4 of the time, this card was worth it. Not to mention that: - it's a location you can use Haunt on (if you haven't got anything better) - it's a target: someone taking an action to Arson your Tower of London is not taking an action to bleed you for 6, or to Rush Carlotta. >There are however *other* cards that have not been mentioned which are of >questionable utility: > >Tajdid >I'm sorry, I know this card eliminates the Assamites' Blood Curse, but to >what end? Diablerie with little votes to support you will result in your own >vampires being burned. I suppose Fida'i can waste themselves taking the >diablerie actions since they're proving to be quite expendable themselves. Fidos seem to be the main candidate for use with Tajdid. And does nobody else ever negotiate table votes for support in diablerie? I know that my grandpredator's votes ALWAYS go my way when I announce an attempt to diablerize my predator's Jost Werner... even more so from my grandprey when I attempt to diablerize my PREY's vampires. People, if you're assuming that the only way to go munching is with your own deck having vote lock, you are sadly mistaken! That is the only way to go munching EVERYONE. >Khabar: Loyalty >It's nice to see the Assamites with an option for speed-influence/pool-gain, >but I'm not sure that Assamites can waste actions doing this. Granted, I've >only taken the assassins for a spin once since Final Nights was released >(and failed miserably), but they still seem *very* difficult to play with. (ponder) "Gain 2 pool and 2 transfers". This looks just like a clan-based version of Scouting Mission to me, except you can't bleed with it. Anyone here think the superior of Scouting Mission sucks? (not to mention Harika Guljan can chunk out free Fidos at one per turn while she's waiting to get her CEL skill card.) >Patshiv >The only way this really becomes useful is if you have a small capacity >Ravnos taking Patshiv actions every turn to keep blood on a couple of larger >Ravnos, but this seems inefficient to me. If large Ravnos have problems with >blood, Restoration seems a better option most of the time. Patshiv may be >useful if Week of Nightmares is in play, since you presumably have *lots* of >Ravnos weenies ready to take advantage of the bleeds/strength bonus. I know that I drafted every Patshiv I got my hands on in the pre-release, and gained 3-4 blood onto vampires with each action; of course, I was also packing a terminally weenie Ravnos crypt (largest vampire was a 6-cap). I think the good use of this card is all about the weenies. I see a deck somewhat like this: Spleen takes actions to recruit Raven Spies, and remains untapped once he gets 2. Sasha Miklos takes "Patshiv" actions to glue blood back onto Spleen each turn before his recruit action. All your other Ravnos come out and do "Ravnos Things", using Wake/Shilmulo Deception to save Spleen's butt every time he's forced to actually block an action... and backed with plenty of Trapparition/Carrion Crows. And all your other minions start to gain blood from Sasha's actions as well, of course, but that's sort of a fringe benefit. Scatter Blood Dolls as appropriate. >Creepshow Casino >I'm not convinced this card is worth spending 2 pool on. It seems quite >limited for the cost. Votes, hunting, and rescue actions seem most useful >for this, but those all have inherent stealth. I think I'd rather take my >chances and just include some transient stealth (if available). Big gotcha: "if available". I know this card will soon hit the table with my Toreador intercepty-gun deck... all I need to get is 1 gun per turn, and I'm good to go. Or better yet, one Pier 13. How can this be bad for them, not having to spend blood for Alacrity every time they want to get a stinking .44? >Visit from the Capushin >The four-card bonus does not last long enough to really make this card >useful. I'd rather include an Elder Library and hope that nobody steals it. It's a temporary turbo-charge for your deck, much like Dreams of the Sphinx. Hang onto it until you hand-jam, then play it and watch your deck go "zoom". Highly, HIGHLY effective card - it's already being used to great effect around here. I can't think of a single deck that can't benefit from a "hmm.. my hand sucks this turn, let's see what's on top of my deck?" card. >Crimson Fury >Maybe it's just the way I play, but when my vampires are in torpor, I don't >*want* other vampires to diablerize them, I want to get them out. Even >burning the other vampire at superior means I lose my vampire. I'd rather >include an Aid from Bats. I think the Gangrel will make great use of this card along with Force of Will -- no longer do they have to jump through enormous hoops to get their vampires BACK out of torpor on the same turn. Instead, they can take a "normal" action, then take a Force of Will action, and sit there in torpor knowing that diablerie attempts they can't block will fail... and play Rapid Healing on their turn to come back and bleed AGAIN with Force of Will. The "Gangrel torpor bounce deck" just lost a few moving parts... no more Freak Drive and Movement of the Slow Body required. Hmmm. >Sensory Overload >Spend two more blood and Sens Dep them instead. For the limited 'tap' type >effect, the blood cost is prohibitive. Not absolutely useless, but not that >great either. You do make yourself a LOT less of a target by pitching this card around, as opposed to Sense Deps, which tend to strike fear into the whole table. It makes a great "bait" card for Red Herring, as well. The "cannot act or block" part looks extremely useful for defending against your predator, for example; glue this onto his Prince and secure yourself against 2nd Tradition, which Sense Dep doesn't stop at all. AND, he's going to take some nasty damage from his predator while he can't block... AND that Prince won't be calling a Parity Shift on you the next turn, or any other nastiness. And if you're tossing it on your predator, it looks just the same at superior OR inferior. And we won't even mention what it looks like with a Path of Paradox out. >Pseudo-Blindness >Too corner-case. I suppose burning a Lost in Crowds as it is played might be >nice once in a while, but the Ravnos have ways to reduce the acting minion's >stealth to 0, which has a similar but more potent effect. As for reacting to >Chimerstry, how often will your Ravnos face other Ravnos? As with most >Chimerstry cards, the blood cost is prohibitive. ... the ability to erase a Forgotten Labryinth is not insignificant... not to mention an Elder Impersonation, Faceless Night, Mask of 1000 Faces, etc. I wouldn't put TONS in any Ravnos deck, but maybe one or two to hang onto if I see an OBF predator behind me. >Deny >Not useless by any means, but not really worth a rare slot. How many of them are you really going to want? Rarity doesn't mean power in V:TES. Although the superior IS a Dementation stealth card, and Mind Tricks didn't get reprinted in SW... >Grasp the Ghostly >Too corner-case. If the 'grave-robbed' equipment lasted indefinitely, I'd >change my mind. Lots more equipment hitting the tables these days... always nice to be able to fish someone's Assault Rifle out for free. At inferior. At +1 stealth. While gaining a pool with Tower of London. ;) >Baleful Doll >Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also >rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I >equip it. I think that the prospect of a Baleful Doll deck, with a bunch of weenie Giovanni and Embraces, somewhat disturbs me. Especially with a Strained Vitae Supply in play. >Relentless Pursuit >Not useless, but Potence decks are too tight as is to include this card. An >extra Immortal Grapple will be preferrable most of the time, as it also >includes a press. IG's press is only at superior; this is a press at inferior. The superior of this card is curious; Potence relies on having "just" the right cards in hand at any given time. I wonder how well it would do to cycle cards, especially in, say, a Thrown Gate/Car deck, which kind of needs its 2nd-round maneuvers? >Veil of Silence >If First Strike was actually useful, this card might be nice. The anti-dodge >is ok, but overall, this card is too corner-case for my tastes. First Strike IS useful, against combat decks. S:CE is the Assamites' inherent weakness, so no comment there, except that Veil of Silence is usable when blocking, and blocking decks rely on stopping the ACTION, not killing the vampire. The anti-dodge removes the Assamites' SECOND weakness. And what are you left with? Decks that want to hit back. Hmmm. Kali's Fang with First Strike is a rude surprise, as is Thetmes using this in ANY form. Potence decks will NOT like you anymore if you can produce agg hand damage to pre-empt their punch for 7. Or Parnassus using this and Thin Blood... Most curious. =) >Dismemberment of Osiris >This card is inferior to Sacrificical Lamb. SL grants you the blood (making >up for the 3 blood cost) and equipment and has no restrictions other than >the vampire being in torpor. The burn blood/pool clause does not really make >up for this. Sac Lamb requires superior OBF and a vampire who HAS 3 blood. Dismemberment can be played by an Embrace with a SER skill card, and 1 blood isn't all that much for its effect. It makes a good corner-case card, especially in a vote deck that might object to having titled vampires around. >Set's Call >Talk about corner-case... how often will a Setite reliably block an >ally/retainer action? How long will this wait in your hand while you wait? (shrug) Depends on if you see a likely "gimme that" retainer action in your future. The effect is enormous, if you consider that you could conceivably steal a Garou this way, and you can IGNORE any clan restrictions... meaning you could end up with Ambrosius, too. >Save Face >Too many restrictions for such a minor effect. Weird card. I won't consign it to the bin yet, but it does have some interesting potential. But very, very weird, and almost requires a deck built around it. =/ It looks kind of interesting for the Tremere,... Theft, punched for 1, press, Walk of Flame, punched for 1, gain the 1 back and end up 1 blood up on the deal. Of course, nobody just punches for 1 anymore, so your Tremere are likely to end up in the dustbin themselves. BUT. =) -- Derek Maintenance: Keep the balls dry and clean and prevent them from violent collisions. Disclaimer: We make no claim that use of these balls will improve health.

Wes <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: >> Shadow Parasite (No thanks. I really can't see any use for this one.) > >Damn, then I can't trade you mine? Depends. Do you want any Twisting the Knife? :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<n7pektkvstom99ngf...@4ax.com>... > > >Crimson Fury > >Maybe it's just the way I play, but when my vampires are in torpor, I don't > >*want* other vampires to diablerize them, I want to get them out. Even > >burning the other vampire at superior means I lose my vampire. I'd rather > >include an Aid from Bats. > > I think the Gangrel will make great use of this card along with Force > of Will -- no longer do they have to jump through enormous hoops to > get their vampires BACK out of torpor on the same turn. Instead, they > can take a "normal" action, then take a Force of Will action, and sit > there in torpor knowing that diablerie attempts they can't block will > fail... and play Rapid Healing on their turn to come back and bleed > AGAIN with Force of Will. The only problem with this card is that it has a cost of 1 blood. In my neck of the wood vampires tend to go into torpor with zero blood left (think of rush-decks). I'd say that in at least half of the relevant situations you can't use Crimson Fury because you can't pay the cost. That's quite a disadvantage, IMO, so this card is not *that* useable at all. > >Relentless Pursuit > >Not useless, but Potence decks are too tight as is to include this card. An > >extra Immortal Grapple will be preferrable most of the time, as it also > >includes a press. > > IG's press is only at superior; this is a press at inferior. > > The superior of this card is curious; Potence relies on having "just" > the right cards in hand at any given time. I wonder how well it would > do to cycle cards, especially in, say, a Thrown Gate/Car deck, which > kind of needs its 2nd-round maneuvers? It's overcosted for it's effect. 1 blood for a press at normal? No thanks. The superior version still needs to be examined in actual play to see if the cost is justified. Generally, a card that cost 1 blood for something as simple as a press is considered "wallpaper" (in my neck of the woods, that is). Carl

> 3 and 4. Two hunting grounds are much more powerful than one Club Zombie IMHO. > Granted, two hunting grounds are an master phase action so it's not a precise > apples-to-apples comparison. I think Club Zombie has to be viewed for it's hunting ground function FIRST and the incercept second. It works in a supplimentary way to the hunting grond, since you can't use 2 hunting grounds to put blood on one vampire, but you can put one blood from a hunting ground and use club zombie - 2 blood on one vamp in your untap (VERY useful for a blood dolled vampire). It is also invaluable for a mixed clan deck - since you can never tell which vampires are goign to be around when you get a hunting ground in your hand. The intercept is it's weakest function. You can't trade it off with other meths as you can with all the other 3 intercept locations. If you just wanted the intercept for yourself, pack a sports bike or something for 3 less pool and save your master slot for another blood doll! So, best used for the blood gain as a priority, and the intercept only if REALLY needed. My 2c DH

On 8 Jul 2001 05:47:25 -0700, carl.pi...@chello.at (Carl Pilhatsch) wrote: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<n7pektkvstom99ngf...@4ax.com>... >> >> >Crimson Fury >> I think the Gangrel will make great use of this card along with Force >> of Will -- no longer do they have to jump through enormous hoops to >> get their vampires BACK out of torpor on the same turn. Instead, they >> can take a "normal" action, then take a Force of Will action, and sit >> there in torpor knowing that diablerie attempts they can't block will >> fail... and play Rapid Healing on their turn to come back and bleed >> AGAIN with Force of Will. > >The only problem with this card is that it has a cost of 1 blood. In Not in the above deck, however, where the vampires are in torpor WITH blood on them and can afford to pay the cost. >my neck of the wood vampires tend to go into torpor with zero blood >left (think of rush-decks). I'd say that in at least half of the >relevant situations you can't use Crimson Fury because you can't pay >the cost. That's quite a disadvantage, IMO, so this card is not *that* >useable at all. It doesn't REALLY make sense that a vampire who's had the stuffing pounded out of it would somehow be able to (through -animalism-, no less) mysteriously summon a Discipline and resist being put through the veg-o-matic. But a vampire who's simply been shocked into torpor (through agg damage, say?) WOULD at least still have some of the "potent" vitae left to be able to react on its own. But again, I see it very usable in decks that intend to send themselves to torpor somehow; Gangrel/Ravnos with Force of Will, Day Op, Daring the Dawn, etc. Not so much for the Tzimisce, since they tend to go to torpor empty and have Reform Body anyway. >> >Relentless Pursuit >> The superior of this card is curious; Potence relies on having "just" >> the right cards in hand at any given time. I wonder how well it would >> do to cycle cards, especially in, say, a Thrown Gate/Car deck, which >> kind of needs its 2nd-round maneuvers? > >It's overcosted for it's effect. 1 blood for a press at normal? No The inferior is a "token inferior", much like Mind Rape's inferior. Nobody would play Mind Rape for its inferior ALONE. >thanks. The superior version still needs to be examined in actual play >to see if the cost is justified. Generally, a card that cost 1 blood >for something as simple as a press is considered "wallpaper" (in my >neck of the woods, that is). But the SUPERIOR is what costs the blood. I still tend to look at it and wonder; hand-cycling in combat is never a bad thing, and Potence doesn't have access to Aura Reading. Now all we need is for someone to make the POT/tha deck; Thrown Gate first round, Relentless Pursuit, Walk of Flame second round. =) (Silly, silly deck, but hey... who knows? Anvil likes it. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > Yes, I CAN be drawn into any "cards that suck" discussion. In case > newbies to the group don't realize, I'm of the camp that believes that > almost every card is useful in a given situation, and that people just > haven't figured out a way to use them properly yet. Of course... that's partly why I've been commenting on these cards. Maybe someone has found a use for them that I haven't. Of course, I didn't choose the name of the thread. I'll change it now. > Witness: Temptation of Greater Power, which took FIVE (5) YEARS for > someone to haul out and make "go" properly. > > Now, I'm going to idly comment on that as well, and point out that > ANYONE saying "This card has no use" is going to get some pretty raw, > open scorn from me (and others), unless they intend to back it up with > some sort of VALID reasoning. There have been far too many instances > of people "discovering" cards and making them work in this game's > history for any sensible person to be running around claiming that "X > card sucks"... so if you want to be so gung-ho about bashing the set > (you know who you are), go for it, but you DO look like fools and will > look even more so later. I generally like Final NIghts as a set. Some of the cards are a bit iffy, but I'm mostly happy. I'm still ecstatic that we basically have 4 new and improved clans to play with. Granted, I have yet to make the Ravnos or Assamites do well, but I have had extraordinary success with the Giovanni and Setites. I look forward to the Toronto tournament where I'll be able to see some of these new cards show up in a seriously competitive setting (well... as seriously competitive as Toronto *can* be (j/k)). > On with the show! =) *puts bag of popcorn in microwave for 3:30 on high* >>Tower of London > > As Pat commented, Tower of London is great for a deck that intends to > take a shitload of NEC actions. Cost 2, MINIMUM of 12 turns per > game... take 3 NEC actions, you're up one pool. This means that if > your deck only works 1/4 of the time, this card was worth it. > > Not to mention that: > > - it's a location you can use Haunt on (if you haven't got anything > better) > > - it's a target: someone taking an action to Arson your Tower of > London is not taking an action to bleed you for 6, or to Rush > Carlotta. It can be a *seriously* bad thing if someone, especially your prey, steals this card. Imagine them tapping to gain pool every time you do a NEC action. Eesh. > >Tajdid > >I'm sorry, I know this card eliminates the Assamites' Blood Curse, but to > >what end? Diablerie with little votes to support you will result in your own > >vampires being burned. I suppose Fida'i can waste themselves taking the > >diablerie actions since they're proving to be quite expendable themselves. > > Fidos seem to be the main candidate for use with Tajdid. And does > nobody else ever negotiate table votes for support in diablerie? I > know that my grandpredator's votes ALWAYS go my way when I announce an > attempt to diablerize my predator's Jost Werner... even more so from > my grandprey when I attempt to diablerize my PREY's vampires. > > People, if you're assuming that the only way to go munching is with > your own deck having vote lock, you are sadly mistaken! That is the > only way to go munching EVERYONE. Well, table votes are not something that can be accurately predicted when the deck is made, nor can they always be negotiated in your favour. When all is said and done, I'd really rather have another Master card. > >Khabar: Loyalty > >It's nice to see the Assamites with an option for speed-influence/pool-gain, > >but I'm not sure that Assamites can waste actions doing this. Granted, I've > >only taken the assassins for a spin once since Final Nights was released > >(and failed miserably), but they still seem *very* difficult to play with. > > (ponder) "Gain 2 pool and 2 transfers". This looks just like a > clan-based version of Scouting Mission to me, except you can't bleed > with it. > > Anyone here think the superior of Scouting Mission sucks? > > (not to mention Harika Guljan can chunk out free Fidos at one per turn > while she's waiting to get her CEL skill card.) Yeah. It's not a bad intent. It's just that the Assamites from what I can tell, don't have a lot of room to maneuver card-slot-wise, nor do they have the time during a game to waste gaining pool this way. That's my experience so far which is limited to one very bad game. I'm not ready to condemn it completely... but I think I'd rather have another Thin Blood or Psyche! > >Patshiv > >The only way this really becomes useful is if you have a small capacity > >Ravnos taking Patshiv actions every turn to keep blood on a couple of larger > >Ravnos, but this seems inefficient to me. If large Ravnos have problems with > >blood, Restoration seems a better option most of the time. Patshiv may be > >useful if Week of Nightmares is in play, since you presumably have *lots* of > >Ravnos weenies ready to take advantage of the bleeds/strength bonus. > > I know that I drafted every Patshiv I got my hands on in the > pre-release, and gained 3-4 blood onto vampires with each action; of > course, I was also packing a terminally weenie Ravnos crypt (largest > vampire was a 6-cap). I think the good use of this card is all about > the weenies. > > I see a deck somewhat like this: Spleen takes actions to recruit > Raven Spies, and remains untapped once he gets 2. Sasha Miklos takes > "Patshiv" actions to glue blood back onto Spleen each turn before his > recruit action. All your other Ravnos come out and do "Ravnos > Things", using Wake/Shilmulo Deception to save Spleen's butt every > time he's forced to actually block an action... and backed with plenty > of Trapparition/Carrion Crows. And all your other minions start to > gain blood from Sasha's actions as well, of course, but that's sort of > a fringe benefit. Scatter Blood Dolls as appropriate. Seems a bit inefficient to me. That's a *lot* of setting up and probably a lot of praying too. Do you have a deck in mind here? Post it if possible. I've yet to see any new Ravnos decks. > >Creepshow Casino > >I'm not convinced this card is worth spending 2 pool on. It seems quite > >limited for the cost. Votes, hunting, and rescue actions seem most useful > >for this, but those all have inherent stealth. I think I'd rather take my > >chances and just include some transient stealth (if available). > > Big gotcha: "if available". I know this card will soon hit the table > with my Toreador intercepty-gun deck... all I need to get is 1 gun per > turn, and I'm good to go. Or better yet, one Pier 13. How can this > be bad for them, not having to spend blood for Alacrity every time > they want to get a stinking .44? Hmmm... hadn't considered the Toreador get a gun idea. That works nicely, you're right. > >Visit from the Capushin > >The four-card bonus does not last long enough to really make this card > >useful. I'd rather include an Elder Library and hope that nobody steals it. > > It's a temporary turbo-charge for your deck, much like Dreams of the > Sphinx. Hang onto it until you hand-jam, then play it and watch your > deck go "zoom". > > Highly, HIGHLY effective card - it's already being used to great > effect around here. I can't think of a single deck that can't benefit > from a "hmm.. my hand sucks this turn, let's see what's on top of my > deck?" card. I don't think so, Derek. The card gives you a chance to increase your hand-size, but does not provide you with a way to discard chaff. You're still stuck with the cards you don't want until you can discard them in another manner. And once that useless card is discarded, you lose that extra hand-size with it. At least... that's the way I read it. Am I missing something? > >Crimson Fury > >Maybe it's just the way I play, but when my vampires are in torpor, I don't > >*want* other vampires to diablerize them, I want to get them out. Even > >burning the other vampire at superior means I lose my vampire. I'd rather > >include an Aid from Bats. > > I think the Gangrel will make great use of this card along with Force > of Will -- no longer do they have to jump through enormous hoops to > get their vampires BACK out of torpor on the same turn. Instead, they > can take a "normal" action, then take a Force of Will action, and sit > there in torpor knowing that diablerie attempts they can't block will > fail... and play Rapid Healing on their turn to come back and bleed > AGAIN with Force of Will. > > The "Gangrel torpor bounce deck" just lost a few moving parts... no > more Freak Drive and Movement of the Slow Body required. Hmmm. Definitely a good card for that type of deck. Not great for much else. Still, I've always wanted to make a torpor-deck. Noal has a really cool one. It's hilarious to watch him play it. > >Sensory Overload > >Spend two more blood and Sens Dep them instead. For the limited 'tap' type > >effect, the blood cost is prohibitive. Not absolutely useless, but not that > >great either. > > You do make yourself a LOT less of a target by pitching this card > around, as opposed to Sense Deps, which tend to strike fear into the > whole table. It makes a great "bait" card for Red Herring, as well. > > The "cannot act or block" part looks extremely useful for defending > against your predator, for example; glue this onto his Prince and > secure yourself against 2nd Tradition, which Sense Dep doesn't stop at > all. AND, he's going to take some nasty damage from his predator > while he can't block... AND that Prince won't be calling a Parity > Shift on you the next turn, or any other nastiness. > > And if you're tossing it on your predator, it looks just the same at > superior OR inferior. And we won't even mention what it looks like > with a Path of Paradox out. But it's not as good as Sensory Deprivation. It's transient, less obnoxious and ultimately inferior to Sens-Dep. Sens-Dep is a *way* better 'bait' card as you don't have to pay the three blood once you're blocked. Of course, this assumes you have the three blood to pay for it, but I'll leave that to the deck-design department. > >Pseudo-Blindness > >Too corner-case. I suppose burning a Lost in Crowds as it is played might be > >nice once in a while, but the Ravnos have ways to reduce the acting minion's > >stealth to 0, which has a similar but more potent effect. As for reacting to > >Chimerstry, how often will your Ravnos face other Ravnos? As with most > >Chimerstry cards, the blood cost is prohibitive. > > ... the ability to erase a Forgotten Labryinth is not insignificant... > not to mention an Elder Impersonation, Faceless Night, Mask of 1000 > Faces, etc. > > I wouldn't put TONS in any Ravnos deck, but maybe one or two to hang > onto if I see an OBF predator behind me. Rather than cancel the effect of OBF or CHI, why not just reduce their stealth to zero and then block? Much more efficient. > >Deny > >Not useless by any means, but not really worth a rare slot. > > How many of them are you really going to want? I have all I need. One. > Rarity doesn't mean power in V:TES. Although the superior IS a > Dementation stealth card, and Mind Tricks didn't get reprinted in > SW... True... though I don't see !Malks lacking in the stealth department. > >Grasp the Ghostly > >Too corner-case. If the 'grave-robbed' equipment lasted indefinitely, I'd > >change my mind. > > Lots more equipment hitting the tables these days... always nice to be > able to fish someone's Assault Rifle out for free. At inferior. At > +1 stealth. While gaining a pool with Tower of London. ;) This is assuming that they've lost or discarded their equipment, as well as assuming that they're actually playing with equipment as well as only making that equipment available for three turns. This is just as 'corner-case' as Set's Call, and a lot less permanent. > >Baleful Doll > >Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also > >rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I > >equip it. > > I think that the prospect of a Baleful Doll deck, with a bunch of > weenie Giovanni and Embraces, somewhat disturbs me. Especially with a > Strained Vitae Supply in play. Could be. I love cards that reduce blood on opposing vamps... you wouldn't believe how hard I'm trying to break Free States Rant :) But this card being unique is what limits it. I just know that I'll be having three or four jammed in my hand when I don't want them there. Combined with Fear of Mekhet or Society of Leopold though makes for a tempting combo though. > >Relentless Pursuit > >Not useless, but Potence decks are too tight as is to include this card. An > >extra Immortal Grapple will be preferrable most of the time, as it also > >includes a press. > > IG's press is only at superior; this is a press at inferior. > > The superior of this card is curious; Potence relies on having "just" > the right cards in hand at any given time. I wonder how well it would > do to cycle cards, especially in, say, a Thrown Gate/Car deck, which > kind of needs its 2nd-round maneuvers? There are just so many other Potence cards I'd rather play with though. Let's face it, Potence covers a very limited scope of the game: Hitting opponents *hard* in combat. There isn't a lot of room for new cards that aren't weaker versions of already existing cards. Something like Disarm or Decapitate make for an interesting addition to the Potence School of Dentistry, but Relentless Pursuit is kind of... well, boring. > >Veil of Silence > >If First Strike was actually useful, this card might be nice. The anti-dodge > >is ok, but overall, this card is too corner-case for my tastes. > > First Strike IS useful, against combat decks. > > S:CE is the Assamites' inherent weakness, so no comment there, except > that Veil of Silence is usable when blocking, and blocking decks rely > on stopping the ACTION, not killing the vampire. > > The anti-dodge removes the Assamites' SECOND weakness. > > And what are you left with? Decks that want to hit back. Hmmm. > Kali's Fang with First Strike is a rude surprise, as is Thetmes using > this in ANY form. Potence decks will NOT like you anymore if you can > produce agg hand damage to pre-empt their punch for 7. Or Parnassus > using this and Thin Blood... Most curious. =) Sure, but as I mentioned above, I haven't seen any *room* in my decks for this kind of luxury. Market Square makes it easier as well as AUS on some of the new Assamites though... maybe I'll try a 'reactive' Assassin deck. A few Eagles Sights (and a few Auspex masters I guess) and we'll block forward instead of rushing forward. Anybody done this successfully yet? > >Dismemberment of Osiris > >This card is inferior to Sacrificical Lamb. SL grants you the blood (making > >up for the 3 blood cost) and equipment and has no restrictions other than > >the vampire being in torpor. The burn blood/pool clause does not really make > >up for this. > > Sac Lamb requires superior OBF and a vampire who HAS 3 blood. > Dismemberment can be played by an Embrace with a SER skill card, and 1 > blood isn't all that much for its effect. It makes a good corner-case > card, especially in a vote deck that might object to having titled > vampires around. You could use it with Thrones Crumble to empty the titled guys and then block their forced-hunts. This assumes you're up against an opponent who has a lot of titles. Most of the time, there'll be one or two at least on the table... but whose??? I want to hurt my prey or occasionally predator... not just the guy with all the votes. > >Set's Call > >Talk about corner-case... how often will a Setite reliably block an > >ally/retainer action? How long will this wait in your hand while you wait? > > (shrug) Depends on if you see a likely "gimme that" retainer action > in your future. The effect is enormous, if you consider that you > could conceivably steal a Garou this way, and you can IGNORE any clan > restrictions... meaning you could end up with Ambrosius, too. Yeah, the effect is wonderful. It's just that having a Setite successfully block an action to equip Ambrosius that I doubt I'll be seeing that often. And if I'm building a deck designed to intercept ally-recruitments, I just know I'm not going to see any allies that game. It's Murphy's Law or something like that. > >Save Face > >Too many restrictions for such a minor effect. > > Weird card. I won't consign it to the bin yet, but it does have some > interesting potential. But very, very weird, and almost requires a > deck built around it. =/ It looks kind of interesting for the > Tremere,... Theft, punched for 1, press, Walk of Flame, punched for 1, > gain the 1 back and end up 1 blood up on the deal. Of course, nobody > just punches for 1 anymore, so your Tremere are likely to end up in > the dustbin themselves. BUT. =) Yeah. Definitely intriguing with Thaumaturgy come to think of it... Cheers, WES

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<n7pektkvstom99ngf...@4ax.com>... > Yes, I CAN be drawn into any "cards that suck" discussion. In case > newbies to the group don't realize, I'm of the camp that believes that > almost every card is useful in a given situation, and that people just > haven't figured out a way to use them properly yet. > > Witness: Temptation of Greater Power, which took FIVE (5) YEARS for > someone to haul out and make "go" properly. > > Now, I'm going to idly comment on that as well, and point out that > ANYONE saying "This card has no use" is going to get some pretty raw, > open scorn from me (and others), unless they intend to back it up with > some sort of VALID reasoning. There have been far too many instances > of people "discovering" cards and making them work in this game's > history for any sensible person to be running around claiming that "X > card sucks"... so if you want to be so gung-ho about bashing the set > (you know who you are), go for it, but you DO look like fools and will > look even more so later. > Shh, darling, people will think you are all hostile and mean if you keep on posting before you have your coffee. Of course, i entirely agree with the substantive point you are making. Personally, i haven't detected a single uncomplicated dud in the new set, and i think those posters who claim to be unable to find uses for the new cards might think a little more deeply about how the cards they are criticising fit in with cards from PREVIOUS sets. i'll say no more about this right now. Alright, yes i will. VTES has CHANGED with the issue of FN. There are a LOT of new things you can do, things which people really HAVEN'T tried to do before because they were not going to win them games. Later this month when FN become tournament-legal you will all see what i mean. i do love these "x-sucks" threads, though. They give me most of my ideas. They give Derek and Rob Treasure a lot of THEIR ideas, too. So keep 'em coming! If you don't, we might have to start a new e-personality deliberately to kick thse threads off. <snip stuff i mostly agree with>

>I think Club Zombie has to be viewed for it's hunting ground function >FIRST and the incercept second. It works in a supplimentary way to the >hunting grond, since you can't use 2 hunting grounds to put blood on >one vampire, but you can put one blood from a hunting ground and use >club zombie - 2 blood on one vamp in your untap (VERY useful for a >blood dolled vampire). > << snipped body >> >So, best used for the blood gain as a priority, and the intercept only >if REALLY needed. I definitely agree with you here. And don't forget that you'll always get one thing or another. IF you don't use the intercept, then it'll be untapped so you WILL get the blood. (If it was the other way around, you would have to forfeit the blood for intercept you might not necessarily need). Halcyan 2

>>>Tower of London >> >> As Pat commented, Tower of London is great for a deck that intends to >> take a shitload of NEC actions. Cost 2, MINIMUM of 12 turns per >> game... take 3 NEC actions, you're up one pool. This means that if >> your deck only works 1/4 of the time, this card was worth it. >> >> Not to mention that: >> >> - it's a location you can use Haunt on (if you haven't got anything >> better) >> >> - it's a target: someone taking an action to Arson your Tower of >> London is not taking an action to bleed you for 6, or to Rush >> Carlotta. > >It can be a *seriously* bad thing if someone, especially your prey, steals >this card. Imagine them tapping to gain pool every time you do a NEC action. >Eesh. Yep. I can just imagine some Giovanni player putting the Tower into play and placing a Haunt on it. Meanwhile, his prey, some Ventrue vote deck steals the Tower with a Disputed Territory. Not only does the Ventrue prey gain a pool each time the Giovanni player does a Necromancy action (once a turn of course), but the Giovanni can't even Haunt at superior to destroy the location! (Since Tower requires Giovanni!). And since I'm guessing most Giovanni players have already switched out most of those Arsons for Haunts, this could spell bad news. And even if the Giovanni draws the single Arson left in their deck, the Ventrue prey can burn the Haunt to cause the action to fail! You're right Wes, this is so frickin' hilarious and ironic!!! Halcyan 2

> > >Visit from the Capushin > > >The four-card bonus does not last long enough to really make this card > > >useful. I'd rather include an Elder Library and hope that nobody steals > it. > > > > It's a temporary turbo-charge for your deck, much like Dreams of the > > Sphinx. Hang onto it until you hand-jam, then play it and watch your > > deck go "zoom". > > > > Highly, HIGHLY effective card - it's already being used to great > > effect around here. I can't think of a single deck that can't benefit > > from a "hmm.. my hand sucks this turn, let's see what's on top of my > > deck?" card. > > I don't think so, Derek. > > The card gives you a chance to increase your hand-size, but does not provide > you with a way to discard chaff. You're still stuck with the cards you don't > want until you can discard them in another manner. And once that useless > card is discarded, you lose that extra hand-size with it. > > At least... that's the way I read it. Am I missing something? > > I actually think it's a wonderful card in it's own and absolutely devastating in an Anson-backed weenie-bleed deck. Yes, you'll wait for a combo or in worst case make two all-out assaults instead of one, but backing Dreams of the Sphinx with Visit is awful. During the assault you'll need every bleed-action/bleed-modifier you can lay hands on, and the next turn you're likely to spend hunting anyway. Chances are that you'll have a hand empty of bleed-cards but filled with wake/bounce-cards - which during turn two I find a very good idea :) Sten During -- NetGuide Scandinavia AB http://www.netg.se/ Tankegangen 4 in...@netg.se 417 56 Goteborg Phone:+46 - (0)31 - 50 79 45 Sweden Fax: +46 - (0)31 - 50 79 39

On 9 Jul 2001 01:51:29 -0700, legb...@my-deja.com (legbiter) wrote: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<n7pektkvstom99ngf...@4ax.com>... >> some sort of VALID reasoning. There have been far too many instances >> of people "discovering" cards and making them work in this game's >> history for any sensible person to be running around claiming that "X >> card sucks"... so if you want to be so gung-ho about bashing the set >> >Shh, darling, people will think you are all hostile and mean if you >keep on posting before you have your coffee. Of course, i entirely um, i AM hostile and mean. Especially before my coffee. No, wait, that's Noal. Um. Before my beer? >right now. Alright, yes i will. VTES has CHANGED with the issue of FN. >There are a LOT of new things you can do, things which people really >HAVEN'T tried to do before because they were not going to win them >games. Later this month when FN become tournament-legal you will all >see what i mean. Yeah, that's about all I can say to that one as well without giving stuff away. =) Some things are going to start WORKING now, and it's going to be a rude, rude surprise for the "typical" tournament environment. >i do love these "x-sucks" threads, though. They give me most of my >ideas. They give Derek and Rob Treasure a lot of THEIR ideas, too. So >keep 'em coming! If you don't, we might have to start a new >e-personality deliberately to kick thse threads off. Actually, that's true. I hadn't even given Abomination more than a cursory look before now, and then had a sit-down to look at it; I was focused mostly on the Flesh/Taste angle and didn't even realize that it can play things like Earth Meld and untap forever; that you can give it a Mr. Winthrop or an ANI skill card/Raven Spy and it becomes a really obnoxious blocker... Just BEING A VAMPIRE gives it a stream of possibilities. Yikes. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 8 Jul 2001 22:42:03 -0400, "Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> wrote: >Of course... that's partly why I've been commenting on these cards. Maybe >someone has found a use for them that I haven't. Of course, I didn't choose >the name of the thread. I'll change it now. Hm. I'm not sure if I'm happy or not that Agent doesn't de-thread messages when the subject changes. =) I booted the subject again, though, just for giggles. >I generally like Final NIghts as a set. Some of the cards are a bit iffy, >but I'm mostly happy. > >I'm still ecstatic that we basically have 4 new and improved clans to play >with. Granted, I have yet to make the Ravnos or Assamites do well, but I >have had extraordinary success with the Giovanni and Setites. *nod* Well, the Giovanni and Setites are pretty straightforward, so it's not surprising that people are jumping onto those right away. I mean, how much do you have to figure out to see "Hmm.. Dominate bleed... Potence thump... Necromancy toys. Mix well". Or the Setites, with Obfuscate stealth, Presence bleed/vote, and Serpentis toys. The Ravnos and Assamites lack such obvious "niches", and also lack the obvious "bleed discipline" that attracts people so quickly. But I think you'll soon see some pretty nasty stuff built around those two as well, soon... >> - it's a location you can use Haunt on (if you haven't got anything >> better) >> >> - it's a target: someone taking an action to Arson your Tower of >> London is not taking an action to bleed you for 6, or to Rush >> Carlotta. > >It can be a *seriously* bad thing if someone, especially your prey, steals >this card. Imagine them tapping to gain pool every time you do a NEC action. >Eesh. True - and of course you can't Haunt it to kill it after that happens. Good time to include a Kine Dominance or two to retrieve your OWN location, eh? =) (something which DOM decks could stand to include at least one of). >> Fidos seem to be the main candidate for use with Tajdid. And does >> nobody else ever negotiate table votes for support in diablerie? I >> know that my grandpredator's votes ALWAYS go my way when I announce an >> attempt to diablerize my predator's Jost Werner... even more so from >> my grandprey when I attempt to diablerize my PREY's vampires. >> >> People, if you're assuming that the only way to go munching is with >> your own deck having vote lock, you are sadly mistaken! That is the >> only way to go munching EVERYONE. > >Well, table votes are not something that can be accurately predicted when >the deck is made, nor can they always be negotiated in your favour. When all >is said and done, I'd really rather have another Master card. No, they can't be predicted, but you can figure that there will be table votes OUT there. I guess I look at it as Tajdid being only one master slot, and the Fidos being there to be, well, disposable weenies. Sometimes that means they bleed for 1 in big hordes; sometimes it means they sit there and get intercept from Market Square to trash someone; sometimes they go a-munching. =) I mean, really, when you lose a Fido to the bloodhunt, what DO you lose? =) Perhaps they can't always be negotiated, but they can be more often than not, and that means I don't always HAVE to have vote lock to eat a vampire. I just have to make the vampire look like it needs to be eaten. =) >> (ponder) "Gain 2 pool and 2 transfers". This looks just like a >> clan-based version of Scouting Mission to me, except you can't bleed >> with it. > >Yeah. It's not a bad intent. It's just that the Assamites from what I can >tell, don't have a lot of room to maneuver card-slot-wise, nor do they have >the time during a game to waste gaining pool this way. That's my experience >so far which is limited to one very bad game. I'm not ready to condemn it >completely... but I think I'd rather have another Thin Blood or Psyche! Well, the Assamites have previously had serious crypt screw, with their only functional vampires being a 5-cap and two 7-caps. Now they have a bunch of new guys who can DO Assamite things, and they can have a hope of getting more than two or three vamps out before exploding completely. With the extra vamps, suddenly you have the spare actions to take. The free pool is nice. I could see sticking 6 in a deck and just playing them as they come up; moving a little bit away from "hose the world" combat and more towards "just enough to make everyone blocking me pay" combat. >> I see a deck somewhat like this: Spleen takes actions to recruit >> Raven Spies, and remains untapped once he gets 2. Sasha Miklos takes >> "Patshiv" actions to glue blood back onto Spleen each turn before his >> recruit action. All your other Ravnos come out and do "Ravnos >> Things", using Wake/Shilmulo Deception to save Spleen's butt every >> time he's forced to actually block an action... and backed with plenty >> of Trapparition/Carrion Crows. And all your other minions start to >> gain blood from Sasha's actions as well, of course, but that's sort of >> a fringe benefit. Scatter Blood Dolls as appropriate. > >Seems a bit inefficient to me. That's a *lot* of setting up and probably a >lot of praying too. Do you have a deck in mind here? Post it if possible. >I've yet to see any new Ravnos decks. Well, you need to include enough Raven Spies to make sure you get 1 early on, and you'll end up needing to get 2 on 1 vampire, and at least 1 on another to stop Call of the Grateful Dead/Seduction/etc. Spleen can be replaced by any Ravnos weenie with ANI -- the Ravnos can make a very cheap crypt these days. Add skill cards as necessary to upgrade the REST of the crypt, too. I haven't actually built the deck yet, but I know from my experience with intercept that long-term setup is actually viable for that deck style; you're STOPPING actions as you go, so you don't need to worry about being steamrolled -right- away unless you totally fail to get a Raven Spy early on. The first one is huge; the second one is pretty big too, but that first point of intercept is absolutely necessary. And then, once you get two Raven Spies on someone, it really puts a cramp in your predator's game, since he now has to assume he'll get some actions blocked, and must run you out of wakes/combat BEFORE the intercept will go away... and THEN Shilmulo Deception becomes invaluable, protecting your interceptor and leaving him untapped. >> Big gotcha: "if available". I know this card will soon hit the table >> with my Toreador intercepty-gun deck... all I need to get is 1 gun per >> turn, and I'm good to go. Or better yet, one Pier 13. How can this >> be bad for them, not having to spend blood for Alacrity every time >> they want to get a stinking .44? > >Hmmm... hadn't considered the Toreador get a gun idea. That works nicely, >you're right. And the Ventrue will probably love this card as well, to save them from having to make their key actions unblockable ALL the time. =) >> Highly, HIGHLY effective card - it's already being used to great >> effect around here. I can't think of a single deck that can't benefit >> from a "hmm.. my hand sucks this turn, let's see what's on top of my >> deck?" card. > >I don't think so, Derek. > >The card gives you a chance to increase your hand-size, but does not provide >you with a way to discard chaff. You're still stuck with the cards you don't >want until you can discard them in another manner. And once that useless >card is discarded, you lose that extra hand-size with it. > >At least... that's the way I read it. Am I missing something? Right. But for most decks, hand-jam only lasts for a couple cards; once you can move ANYTHING at all, you can get your deck moving again. Also, the cards that were jamming you are often cards you CAN play in your deck, but don't have the right "key" for; take a Rush deck, for example. It jams up on combat cards because it lacks a Rush. Once you play Visit, you probably draw into a Rush, and suddenly the rest of your hand ISN'T chaff anymore. This can be repeated with any number of variants; the vote deck with all vote modifiers and no votes, for example, draws into a vote or two and empties their hand of the mods. There are a LOT of possibilities, and as I said, we ARE seeing this card do -very- well around here. It's just lovely. If you find that drawing 4 cards doesn't fix your hand-jam, I think it might be time to revisit the deck design. =) >> The "Gangrel torpor bounce deck" just lost a few moving parts... no >> more Freak Drive and Movement of the Slow Body required. Hmmm. > >Definitely a good card for that type of deck. Not great for much else. >Still, I've always wanted to make a torpor-deck. Noal has a really cool one. >It's hilarious to watch him play it. as I mentioned elsewhere; it's basically good for the Gangrel/Ravnos, who can now quit worrying AS MUCH about having their guys sit in torpor for awhile. =) >> You do make yourself a LOT less of a target by pitching this card >> around, as opposed to Sense Deps, which tend to strike fear into the >> whole table. It makes a great "bait" card for Red Herring, as well. >> >> The "cannot act or block" part looks extremely useful for defending >> against your predator, for example; glue this onto his Prince and >> secure yourself against 2nd Tradition, which Sense Dep doesn't stop at >> all. AND, he's going to take some nasty damage from his predator >> while he can't block... AND that Prince won't be calling a Parity >> Shift on you the next turn, or any other nastiness. >> >> And if you're tossing it on your predator, it looks just the same at >> superior OR inferior. And we won't even mention what it looks like >> with a Path of Paradox out. > >But it's not as good as Sensory Deprivation. It's transient, less obnoxious >and ultimately inferior to Sens-Dep. Sens-Dep is a *way* better 'bait' card >as you don't have to pay the three blood once you're blocked. Of course, >this assumes you have the three blood to pay for it, but I'll leave that to >the deck-design department. Er, see above. If you are pitching Sense Deps around, expect the table to totally withdraw support from you; a Sense Dep deck will have to live or die on its own, because nobody wants to sit next to you. This is a minor version of it and transient. And of COURSE it's inferior to Sense Dep - it doesn't cost 3 blood! =) Yes, people are guaranteed to block the Sense Dep, but they'll block this one just as much. Besides, this one can be played by a 2-cap as a sideline to your main strategy. A Sense Dep has to be chunked by your Bigger Vampires. =) >> ... the ability to erase a Forgotten Labryinth is not insignificant... >> not to mention an Elder Impersonation, Faceless Night, Mask of 1000 >> Faces, etc. >> >> I wouldn't put TONS in any Ravnos deck, but maybe one or two to hang >> onto if I see an OBF predator behind me. > >Rather than cancel the effect of OBF or CHI, why not just reduce their >stealth to zero and then block? Much more efficient. Well, if you're using Animalism permanent intercept instead of the Ravnos stealth-reducers, that would be one reason. Also, Elder Impersonation will REALLY screw your permanents guy; and if you're pulling the Wake/Shilmulo trick, Faceless Night will tap that perpetually-untapped vampire. Mask of 1k Faces is never something you want to see happen, so burn it and make the original actor be the one fighting. Again, I would toss a couple in a deck, but I'd be saving it for the "non-stealth" stealth cards like EI, Faceless Night, etc. >> >Deny >> >Not useless by any means, but not really worth a rare slot. >> >> How many of them are you really going to want? > >I have all I need. One. ...sounds like it was a perfect choice to be rare, then. =) >> Rarity doesn't mean power in V:TES. Although the superior IS a >> Dementation stealth card, and Mind Tricks didn't get reprinted in >> SW... > >True... though I don't see !Malks lacking in the stealth department. Muriel Foucade doesn't have Obfuscate. Idalia doesn't either and only needs a skill card. Same with Boy Toy. I like the idea of only relying on one discipline, myself... makes skill cards a lot more useful, and all your vampires inherently a lot stronger. >> >Grasp the Ghostly >> >Too corner-case. If the 'grave-robbed' equipment lasted indefinitely, I'd >> >change my mind. >> >> Lots more equipment hitting the tables these days... always nice to be >> able to fish someone's Assault Rifle out for free. At inferior. At >> +1 stealth. While gaining a pool with Tower of London. ;) > >This is assuming that they've lost or discarded their equipment, as well as >assuming that they're actually playing with equipment as well as only making >that equipment available for three turns. This is just as 'corner-case' as >Set's Call, and a lot less permanent. I still expect to see a LOT of equipment happening, though -- (especially the Ravnos). And some of it will end up discarded as just too expensive, or the action will get intercepted (which sends the equipment to the ash heap)... >> >Baleful Doll >> >Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also >> >rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I >> >equip it. >> >> I think that the prospect of a Baleful Doll deck, with a bunch of >> weenie Giovanni and Embraces, somewhat disturbs me. Especially with a >> Strained Vitae Supply in play. > >Could be. > >I love cards that reduce blood on opposing vamps... you wouldn't believe how >hard I'm trying to break Free States Rant :) I don't think it can be broken. But it's fun! =) >But this card being unique is what limits it. I just know that I'll be >having three or four jammed in my hand when I don't want them there. Don't put ten in the deck! Just put 3-4 in the deck. Then lob them out and use them surgically, instead of trying to carpet-bomb your prey's vampires. =) >Combined with Fear of Mekhet or Society of Leopold though makes for a >tempting combo though. Quite. And one you could hang onto for awhile until appropriate. >> The superior of this card is curious; Potence relies on having "just" >> the right cards in hand at any given time. I wonder how well it would >> do to cycle cards, especially in, say, a Thrown Gate/Car deck, which >> kind of needs its 2nd-round maneuvers? > >There are just so many other Potence cards I'd rather play with though. >Let's face it, Potence covers a very limited scope of the game: Hitting >opponents *hard* in combat. There isn't a lot of room for new cards that >aren't weaker versions of already existing cards. Something like Disarm or >Decapitate make for an interesting addition to the Potence School of >Dentistry, but Relentless Pursuit is kind of... well, boring. No, it doesn't make my weasel tingle at first glance either, but I still have to wonder about the superior's hand-shuffle ability. Guess I'll need to actually try to use it some first. =/ >> And what are you left with? Decks that want to hit back. Hmmm. >> Kali's Fang with First Strike is a rude surprise, as is Thetmes using >> this in ANY form. Potence decks will NOT like you anymore if you can >> produce agg hand damage to pre-empt their punch for 7. Or Parnassus >> using this and Thin Blood... Most curious. =) > >Sure, but as I mentioned above, I haven't seen any *room* in my decks for >this kind of luxury. Market Square makes it easier as well as AUS on some of >the new Assamites though... maybe I'll try a 'reactive' Assassin deck. A few >Eagles Sights (and a few Auspex masters I guess) and we'll block forward >instead of rushing forward. Anybody done this successfully yet? Yeah. Todd Bannister, WAY too often. Of course, he IS the Bitch of the Assamites, so I suppose that's why we keep seeing all the experimental Assamite decks around here... ;) But don't focus on Eagle's Sight. Their offense is pretty good. It's the lack of defense that's hurt them; just go ahead and use the Market Square and transient Auspex intercept to defend yourself, and then move forward slowly but steadily. >> Sac Lamb requires superior OBF and a vampire who HAS 3 blood. >> Dismemberment can be played by an Embrace with a SER skill card, and 1 >> blood isn't all that much for its effect. It makes a good corner-case >> card, especially in a vote deck that might object to having titled >> vampires around. > >You could use it with Thrones Crumble to empty the titled guys and then >block their forced-hunts. This assumes you're up against an opponent who has >a lot of titles. Most of the time, there'll be one or two at least on the >table... but whose??? I want to hurt my prey or occasionally predator... not >just the guy with all the votes. (shrug) If you have a Setite vote deck, well, you probably want to give yourself vote lock. =) We've seen a lot of vote dealing going on around here recently, and the consensus that's emerging is "any vote can be bought or sold EXCEPT the one that ousts your prey, and EXCEPT the one that'll give you vote lock." Praxis Seizures are voted down out of hand, if possible; nobody wants to suddenly be cut out of the option to deal. =) This gives you another way to try to get vote lock onto the table; and of course, once that happens, any vote deck is in GREAT shape. >> (shrug) Depends on if you see a likely "gimme that" retainer action >> in your future. The effect is enormous, if you consider that you >> could conceivably steal a Garou this way, and you can IGNORE any clan >> restrictions... meaning you could end up with Ambrosius, too. > >Yeah, the effect is wonderful. It's just that having a Setite successfully >block an action to equip Ambrosius that I doubt I'll be seeing that often. >And if I'm building a deck designed to intercept ally-recruitments, I just >know I'm not going to see any allies that game. It's Murphy's Law or >something like that. Well, it really is a bit of a prayer card. But Mr. Winthrop and a KRCG aren't all THAT difficult to include with the Followers of Set... not to mention a Sport Bike or two. And intercept is alwyas nice to have even if you don't get to snag an ally with it. >> Weird card. I won't consign it to the bin yet, but it does have some >> interesting potential. But very, very weird, and almost requires a >> deck built around it. =/ It looks kind of interesting for the >> Tremere,... Theft, punched for 1, press, Walk of Flame, punched for 1, >> gain the 1 back and end up 1 blood up on the deal. Of course, nobody >> just punches for 1 anymore, so your Tremere are likely to end up in >> the dustbin themselves. BUT. =) > >Yeah. Definitely intriguing with Thaumaturgy come to think of it... Also nice as a corner-case to force someone to press when they didn't want to. Although the clan restriction makes it quite difficult. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> > >It can be a *seriously* bad thing if someone, especially your prey, steals > >this card. Imagine them tapping to gain pool every time you do a NEC action. > >Eesh. > > Yep. I can just imagine some Giovanni player putting the Tower into play and > placing a Haunt on it. Meanwhile, his prey, some Ventrue vote deck steals the > Tower with a Disputed Territory. > > Not only does the Ventrue prey gain a pool each time the Giovanni player does a > Necromancy action (once a turn of course), but the Giovanni can't even Haunt at > superior to destroy the location! (Since Tower requires Giovanni!). And since > I'm guessing most Giovanni players have already switched out most of those > Arsons for Haunts, this could spell bad news. And even if the Giovanni draws > the single Arson left in their deck, the Ventrue prey can burn the Haunt to > cause the action to fail! > > You're right Wes, this is so frickin' hilarious and ironic!!! What would be even worse is if they steal it after you've placed a Haunt on it. Actually, who would control the Haunt in this case? The Giovanni or the Ventrue? Hmm. Regardless... ouch. Cheers, WES

"Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net> > "Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote > > I generally like Final NIghts as a set. Some of the cards are a bit iffy, > but I'm mostly happy. me too =) i find almost all the cards useful. > I'm still ecstatic that we basically have 4 new and improved clans to play > with. Granted, I have yet to make the Ravnos or Assamites do well, but I > have had extraordinary success with the Giovanni and Setites. Ravnos and Assamites can still be used in conjonctions with other clans for better effects. I made a few experiments with those... Try a Toreador/Assamite deck : they share celerity and presence or Celerity and auspex now, and Anathema + thin blood + unpreventable is always good news. Note also that Anathema is a good weapon in Brujah / Assamite deck using potence for S:ce hoser. Just pack Diseases to avoide aggropoke TM. This alos does wonder. > > On with the show! =) > > *puts bag of popcorn in microwave for 3:30 on high* Nope thanks, it'll be french fries for me ;) > >>Tower of London > > > > As Pat commented, Tower of London is great for a deck that intends to > > take a shitload of NEC actions. Cost 2, MINIMUM of 12 turns per > > game... take 3 NEC actions, you're up one pool. This means that if > > your deck only works 1/4 of the time, this card was worth it. > It can be a *seriously* bad thing if someone, especially your prey, steals > this card. Imagine them tapping to gain pool every time you do a NEC action. > Eesh. Yeah, but worst of it, you can't use haunt to destroy it when someone steals it from you. Pack a couples of Kine Dominance. It's always worth ! you can bleed stealth or steal annoying locations =) > > >Khabar: Loyalty > > >It's nice to see the Assamites with an option for > speed-influence/pool-gain, > > >but I'm not sure that Assamites can waste actions doing this. > > (ponder) "Gain 2 pool and 2 transfers". This looks just like a > > clan-based version of Scouting Mission to me, except you can't bleed > > with it. > > Anyone here think the superior of Scouting Mission sucks? > > > > (not to mention Harika Guljan can chunk out free Fidos at one per turn > > while she's waiting to get her CEL skill card.) > > Yeah. It's not a bad intent. It's just that the Assamites from what I can > tell, don't have a lot of room to maneuver card-slot-wise, nor do they have > the time during a game to waste gaining pool this way. That's my experience > so far which is limited to one very bad game. I'm not ready to condemn it > completely... but I think I'd rather have another Thin Blood or Psyche! "Govern back" tactics is at least a good thing for them, who don't have access to the everlasting MinionTap/5th. Provision of the silsilla is nice but implies a lot of moving parts : entering combat with contract, torporising or burning opponent... If you use it along with Heartblood of the clan, you can quickly influence out other vampires : speed & pool managment are often the key in combat decks, as you want to enter combat a lot to get rid of your prey, leaving your pook open for heavy bleeders. With Loyalty, they can transfer new fighters out *and* save a "safety cushion" for those bleeds modifiers. > > >Patshiv > > >The only way this really becomes useful is if you have a small capacity > > >Ravnos taking Patshiv actions every turn to keep blood on a couple of > larger > > >Ravnos, but this seems inefficient to me. If large Ravnos have problems > with > > >blood, Restoration seems a better option most of the time. Patshiv may be > > >useful if Week of Nightmares is in play, since you presumably have *lots* > of > > >Ravnos weenies ready to take advantage of the bleeds/strength bonus. (snip) > Seems a bit inefficient to me. That's a *lot* of setting up and probably a > lot of praying too. Do you have a deck in mind here? Post it if possible. > I've yet to see any new Ravnos decks. I made a deck with 8 patshivs, 8 tribute, 5 Atonment, 4 Raven spies and 3/4 of my crypt were >6 cap ravnos. It did wonder. you can put blood on the attoned vamps who keeps blocking everything that annoys you. If you meet mr brujah, just make him encounter an illusionary vampire. I'll tune it and post it there next week maybe =) > > >Creepshow Casino > > >I'm not convinced this card is worth spending 2 pool on. It seems quite > > >limited for the cost. Votes, hunting, and rescue actions seem most useful > > >for this, but those all have inherent stealth. I think I'd rather take my > > >chances and just include some transient stealth (if available). > > > > Big gotcha: "if available". I know this card will soon hit the table > > with my Toreador intercepty-gun deck... all I need to get is 1 gun per > > turn, and I'm good to go. Or better yet, one Pier 13. How can this > > be bad for them, not having to spend blood for Alacrity every time > > they want to get a stinking .44? > > Hmmm... hadn't considered the Toreador get a gun idea. That works nicely, > you're right. Obviously a good idea in most decks who rely on equipping, recruiting, voting... > > >Visit from the Capushin > > >The four-card bonus does not last long enough to really make this card > > >useful. I'd rather include an Elder Library and hope that nobody steals it. > > > > It's a temporary turbo-charge for your deck, much like Dreams of the > > Sphinx. Hang onto it until you hand-jam, then play it and watch your > > deck go "zoom". > > > > Highly, HIGHLY effective card - it's already being used to great > > effect around here. I can't think of a single deck that can't benefit > > from a "hmm.. my hand sucks this turn, let's see what's on top of my > > deck?" card. > > I don't think so, Derek. > > The card gives you a chance to increase your hand-size, but does not provide > you with a way to discard chaff. You're still stuck with the cards you don't > want until you can discard them in another manner. And once that useless > card is discarded, you lose that extra hand-size with it. > > At least... that's the way I read it. Am I missing something? It's not good for cycling, as you mentioned. But it's perfect for those intercept decks, and some special decks based on combos. Your hand size is bigger, you can use everything you want. You have much more options on actions, action modifiers, combat cards... Your strategy can only be enhanced by this card. And even if someone contests it, you still drew your cards. I think i'll swap my Storage annexes for Visits of Capuchins. > > >Crimson Fury (snip) > > The "Gangrel torpor bounce deck" just lost a few moving parts... no > > more Freak Drive and Movement of the Slow Body required. Hmmm. > > Definitely a good card for that type of deck. Not great for much else. > Still, I've always wanted to make a torpor-deck. Noal has a really cool one. > It's hilarious to watch him play it. I would use it in a Tzimisce deck actually ! the only bad news about those almighty interceptors are aggravated environmental damage and Kiss of Ra. I cannot count how many time lambach hit torpors nowadays. Having my 10 cap, 3 votes monster diablerized is always frustrating. Depending on who the diableris is (a small/middle/big vamp), i can play the inferior or superior version. I think this card is a must have in a tzimisce deck. [ quoted text not captured ] sometime it's all what it takes to stuck a menacing vamp. I remember having paralyzed twice my pred's Marianna Gilbert with 2 Aching beauty on her by putting this into play. Remember that Ravnos, especially the small ones, does not always have the blood to pay for a Sensory+stealth (usually 4 blood). And note you can also put this on a vamp so he cannot block the following sensory deprivation. (snip) > > >Grasp the Ghostly > > >Too corner-case. If the 'grave-robbed' equipment lasted indefinitely, I'd > > >change my mind. > > > > Lots more equipment hitting the tables these days... always nice to be > > able to fish someone's Assault Rifle out for free. At inferior. At > > +1 stealth. While gaining a pool with Tower of London. ;) > > This is assuming that they've lost or discarded their equipment, as well as > assuming that they're actually playing with equipment as well as only making > that equipment available for three turns. This is just as 'corner-case' as > Set's Call, and a lot less permanent. Hum... Don't forget that giovannis now became better interceptors. With Venetian conference, Masquer or all those Gio with auspex, odds are you're going to intercept your pred's Sport bike, Laptop or .44 equip action. You can make use of this, so why not put one or two Grasp th Ghostly ? You can always discard them when using the power of Carlotta or a Whisper. by the way, I always thought that the gio' are the clan to go if you want to play those clan hosers : you can always discard them and put them back in play later to annoy a specific vampire. > > >Baleful Doll > > >Actually, I this card has potential but it shouldn't be unique. I'd also > > >rather that the choose a vampire at the time I use it rather than when I > > >equip it. (snip) > Combined with Fear of Mekhet or Society of Leopold though makes for a > tempting combo though. Yeah. Someone here used it with Temptation to get big vamps quickly on his side =) > > >Relentless Pursuit > > >Not useless, but Potence decks are too tight as is to include this card. An > > >extra Immortal Grapple will be preferrable most of the time, as it also > > >includes a press. > > > > IG's press is only at superior; this is a press at inferior. > > > > The superior of this card is curious; Potence relies on having "just" > > the right cards in hand at any given time. I wonder how well it would > > do to cycle cards, especially in, say, a Thrown Gate/Car deck, which > > kind of needs its 2nd-round maneuvers? > > There are just so many other Potence cards I'd rather play with though. > Let's face it, Potence covers a very limited scope of the game: Hitting > opponents *hard* in combat. There isn't a lot of room for new cards that > aren't weaker versions of already existing cards. Something like Disarm or > Decapitate make for an interesting addition to the Potence School of > Dentistry, but Relentless Pursuit is kind of... well, boring. there's a cheper Press (mighty grapple) actually, with no blood cost. But a lot of combat decks will use superior IG anyway. Relentless is better that mighty grapple as a back-up press. drawing two cards in the process is nice for fetching decapitate or taste of vitae. Or both. I think i'll play more relentlessly when having a Relentless pursuit in my hand : i will enter fights without having necessarily the good cards in hand. It sounds suicidal, but who dares wins =) > > >Veil of Silence > > >If First Strike was actually useful, this card might be nice. The > anti-dodge > > >is ok, but overall, this card is too corner-case for my tastes. > > > > First Strike IS useful, against combat decks. > > > > S:CE is the Assamites' inherent weakness, so no comment there, except > > that Veil of Silence is usable when blocking, and blocking decks rely > > on stopping the ACTION, not killing the vampire. > > > > The anti-dodge removes the Assamites' SECOND weakness. (snip) > Sure, but as I mentioned above, I haven't seen any *room* in my decks for > this kind of luxury. Market Square makes it easier as well as AUS on some of > the new Assamites though... maybe I'll try a 'reactive' Assassin deck. A few > Eagles Sights (and a few Auspex masters I guess) and we'll block forward > instead of rushing forward. Anybody done this successfully yet? a girl in our playgroup actually has a deck packing the Assamites with Auspex and tons of wake/intercept cards. Of course she put the Spirit touch for maneuver and Enhanced senses for +2 intercept. She beat me down the first time she blocked me. I'm happy she wasn't packing Veil of silence, as i would never hit her back, and she would have ruled the table with little resistance. > > >Dismemberment of Osiris > > >This card is inferior to Sacrificical Lamb. SL grants you the blood > (making > > >up for the 3 blood cost) and equipment and has no restrictions other than > > >the vampire being in torpor. The burn blood/pool clause does not really > > > make up for this. > > > > Sac Lamb requires superior OBF and a vampire who HAS 3 blood. > > Dismemberment can be played by an Embrace with a SER skill card, and 1 > > blood isn't all that much for its effect. It makes a good corner-case > > card, especially in a vote deck that might object to having titled > > vampires around. > > You could use it with Thrones Crumble to empty the titled guys and then > block their forced-hunts. This assumes you're up against an opponent who has > a lot of titles. Most of the time, there'll be one or two at least on the > table... but whose??? I want to hurt my prey or occasionally predator... not > just the guy with all the votes. that sounds nice =) half of the big vamp (6 cap) owns a title by now ! Bishop, Primogen, 2 votes, prsicus, Inner circles... Odds are your prey and predator will put at least two >=6 cap in a game. That already makes 2 guaranteed targets. (snip) > > >Save Face > > >Too many restrictions for such a minor effect. > > > > Weird card. I won't consign it to the bin yet, but it does have some > > interesting potential. But very, very weird, and almost requires a > > deck built around it. =/ It looks kind of interesting for the > > Tremere,... Theft, punched for 1, press, Walk of Flame, punched for 1, > > gain the 1 back and end up 1 blood up on the deal. Of course, nobody > > just punches for 1 anymore, so your Tremere are likely to end up in > > the dustbin themselves. BUT. =) > > Yeah. Definitely intriguing with Thaumaturgy come to think of it... Basically, it's a non discipline press which can give you a blood on a smaller vampire. Good reasons to use it ? you see : Apparition. Dagon's Call. Drawing out the beast. Flesh of Marble. Horrid Form. Mythic form. Skin of the Adder. Spawning pool. Superior Mettle. Undead persistence. Weather control. Riposte. Blood to Water. Blood Agony. Eruption of vitae. RPG Launcher. Thoughts betrayed. Walk of flames. Torn signpost. Disease.... I'm sure there's a lot more. All those cards are begging for a press. what you got is a press + 1 blood if you survive. Not to mention in certain conditions, you can force another vampire to have a press when he doesn't want it =) It's slightly like a Frenzy, without taking a master slot. This card sounds cool to me, but yes it requires skill to be used effectively. reyda

[Khabar: Loyalty] >>> (ponder) "Gain 2 pool and 2 transfers". This looks just like a >>> clan-based version of Scouting Mission to me, except you can't bleed >>> with it. >>> Anyone here think the superior of Scouting Mission sucks? >>> >>> (not to mention Harika Guljan can chunk out free Fidos at one per turn >>> while she's waiting to get her CEL skill card.) >> >> Yeah. It's not a bad intent. It's just that the Assamites from what I can >> tell, don't have a lot of room to maneuver card-slot-wise, nor do they > have >> the time during a game to waste gaining pool this way. That's my > experience >> so far which is limited to one very bad game. I'm not ready to condemn it >> completely... but I think I'd rather have another Thin Blood or Psyche! I'll state for the record that Todd Bannister, Bit...Scribe of the Assamites traded the high-holy bejeezus to get Khabar: Loyalties. He knows their pool gain and loss and cost of actions intimately. If I hadn't traded all of mine to him, I'd be sure to pack them in all of my Assamite decks on his word alone. > "Govern back" tactics is at least a good thing for them, who don't have > access to the everlasting MinionTap/5th. Provision of the silsilla is nice > but implies a lot of moving parts : entering combat with contract, > torporising or burning opponent... I dunno. Minion Tap Thetmes for 8. +1 stealth rush and Contract all in one on...I dunno, poor Igo over there cross table. Hands for 1 agg, Provision. 3 card combo, and you can back it up with the other cards in your hand, which are almost certainly combat. Weenies beware the big Assamites in need of a 5th Tradition. Actually, Princes, too. "Is Emerson going to 5th me next turn, or am I going to have to go over there and do it MYSELF?" =) [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > I dunno. Minion Tap Thetmes for 8. +1 stealth rush and Contract all in > one on...I dunno, poor Igo over there cross table. Hands for 1 agg, > Provision. 3 card combo, and you can back it up with the other cards in > your hand, which are almost certainly combat. > Eh, Igo might be a bad choice :) I like him as a blocker/bleeder becuase of his ability to pull out a S:CE.

[ quoted text not captured ] <counternitpick> Thetmes, with inferior Potence, plays Immortal Grapple, and Igo no longer has that option. </counternitpick> [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:06:29 +0200, Sten During <ya...@netg.se> wrote: > > >> I dunno. Minion Tap Thetmes for 8. +1 stealth rush and Contract all in > >> one on...I dunno, poor Igo over there cross table. Hands for 1 agg, > >> Provision. 3 card combo, and you can back it up with the other cards in > >> your hand, which are almost certainly combat. > >> > > > >Eh, Igo might be a bad choice :) I like him as a blocker/bleeder becuase of > >his ability to pull out a S:CE. > > <counternitpick> > > Thetmes, with inferior Potence, plays Immortal Grapple, and Igo no > longer has that option. > > </counternitpick> > > -- Derek Cheers to you :) Oki, let's jump Smudge; he's ignored anyway...

In message <68f2e9f8.01070...@posting.google.com>, legbiter <legb...@my-deja.com> writes >They give Derek and Rob Treasure a lot of THEIR ideas, too. So >keep 'em coming! Oh, the set-up line I missed whilst I was away. Derek Ray and coming in such close proximity. Tch. You're all bastards, the lot of you. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1F It's me Nono small robot you know - friend of Ulysses B457CA213D7E6 It's me Nono small robot you know - friend of Ulysses 68C3695D623D5D

On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 06:14:08 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: >In message <68f2e9f8.01070...@posting.google.com>, legbiter ><legb...@my-deja.com> writes >>They give Derek and Rob Treasure a lot of THEIR ideas, too. So >>keep 'em coming! > >Oh, the set-up line I missed whilst I was away. Derek Ray and coming in >such close proximity. Tch. But do you really want to be in such close proximity if ... ...nevermind. >You're all bastards, the lot of you. And proud of it! =) [ quoted text not captured ]

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> > -- Derek > > Maintenance: Keep the balls dry and clean and prevent them from violent collisions. > Disclaimer: We make no claim that use of these balls will improve health. just to be sure : this is an excerpt from the notice/manual of chineses Qi gong or Tai chi balls, huh ?

On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:18:12 +0200, "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote: >> Maintenance: Keep the balls dry and clean and prevent them from violent >collisions. >> Disclaimer: We make no claim that use of these balls will improve health. > >just to be sure : this is an excerpt from the notice/manual of chineses Qi >gong or Tai chi balls, huh ? qi gong, yes. :) [ quoted text not captured ]