some questions about transfers

1.- Do I have to pay Leandro´s penalty to burn a pool and bring a new vampire to my uncontrolled region? 2.- If I moved Ingrid Rosler to my Ready Region, can I use the two extra transfers immediately?

ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: > 1.- Do I have to pay Leandro´s penalty to burn a pool and bring a new > vampire to my uncontrolled region? Yes. You pay your Leandro tax or you lose all your transfers. You must spend four transfers and a pool to bring a new vampire to your uncontrolled region from your crypt. > 2.- If I moved Ingrid Rosler to my Ready Region, can I use the two > extra transfers immediately? No. Ingrid, or any other vampire with blood equal to their capacity, is moved out of your uncontrolled region at *the end* of your influence phase. It's too late to spend more transfers. -Robert

ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: > 1.- Do I have to pay Leandro´s penalty to burn a pool and bring a new > vampire to my uncontrolled region? Don't ever fall for the Leandro tax choice during your untap phase. Quickly move on to your master phase faster than someone can remind you to choose to pay the Leando tax or not. You've effectively skipped the opportunity to choose, but come your transfer phase, you STILL MUST CHOOSE. You forgot, right. So now choose. Hence cheating effectively. Genious. (can't be forced to choose) ~SV

Screaming Vermillian wrote: > ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: > >>1.- Do I have to pay Leandro愀 penalty to burn a pool and bring a new >>vampire to my uncontrolled region? > > > Don't ever fall for the Leandro tax choice during your untap phase. > Quickly move on to your master phase faster than someone can remind you > to choose to pay the Leando tax or not. You've effectively skipped the > opportunity to choose, but come your transfer phase, you STILL MUST > CHOOSE. You forgot, right. So now choose. Hence cheating effectively. > Genious. (can't be forced to choose) Genious is right. Cheating is still cheating and should be penalized appropriately (i.e., heavily). -- That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet. Keep a little and let a little come back to me. LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > Screaming Vermillian wrote: > >> ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: >> >>> 1.- Do I have to pay Leandro愀 penalty to burn a pool and bring a new >>> vampire to my uncontrolled region? >> >> >> >> Don't ever fall for the Leandro tax choice during your untap phase. >> Quickly move on to your master phase faster than someone can remind you >> to choose to pay the Leando tax or not. You've effectively skipped the >> opportunity to choose, but come your transfer phase, you STILL MUST >> CHOOSE. You forgot, right. So now choose. Hence cheating effectively. >> Genious. (can't be forced to choose) > > > Genious is right. > Cheating is still cheating and should be penalized appropriately > (i.e., heavily). But how to prove it was done intentionally? I am sure everybody here forgot to pay for Leandro during the untap quite often as I did. So it is a very common case that people actually really forget to decide, how to seperate them from the people that willingly "forget" to decide? IMHO that愀 not possible. -- johannes walch http://www.vtes.de - Your premier online Shop for V:TES in Europe

Johannes Walch wrote: > LSJ wrote: >> Cheating is still cheating and should be penalized appropriately >> (i.e., heavily). > > But how to prove it was done intentionally? The judge uses his or her judgment. No "proof" is needed. This isn't a court of law. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Screaming Vermillian wrote: > > ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: > > > >>1.- Do I have to pay Leandro´s penalty to burn a pool and bring a new > >>vampire to my uncontrolled region? > > > > > > Don't ever fall for the Leandro tax choice during your untap phase. > > Quickly move on to your master phase faster than someone can remind you > > to choose to pay the Leando tax or not. You've effectively skipped the > > opportunity to choose, but come your transfer phase, you STILL MUST > > CHOOSE. You forgot, right. So now choose. Hence cheating effectively. > > Genious. (can't be forced to choose) > > Genious is right. > Cheating is still cheating and should be penalized appropriately > (i.e., heavily). Ruling in favor of cheating should be penalized appropriately then perhaps. ~SV

Screaming Vermillian wrote: > ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: > >>1.- Do I have to pay Leandro愀 penalty to burn a pool and bring a new >>vampire to my uncontrolled region? > > > Don't ever fall for the Leandro tax choice during your untap phase. > Quickly move on to your master phase faster than someone can remind you > to choose to pay the Leando tax or not. You've effectively skipped the > opportunity to choose, but come your transfer phase, you STILL MUST > CHOOSE. You forgot, right. So now choose. Hence cheating effectively. > Genious. (can't be forced to choose) > > ~SV > you must choose in your untap phase. if players starts forget to choose repeatly, just start to go back to untap phase, taking back all actions, blocks, ousts... then you deside do you burn pool or not, and play your turn after that again. I know, this is pain in ass to do, but it makes people to remember better to choose in their untap phase.

Why make everyone suffer for the "forgetfulness" (intentional or not) of one person. It is that player's responsibility to remember. If they move on to their master or minion phase, they have effectively chosen not to pay. If you forget to gain a pool from the edge, too bad. If you forgot that you had a master card to play by the time you're on your third minion action, too bad. Now with that being said, when playing with a friendly group or new players, allowances could, and SHOULD, be made, at least for the first couple of times. After that, GAME ON!

mrjay1000 wrote: > Why make everyone suffer for the "forgetfulness" (intentional or not) > of one person. It is that player's responsibility to remember. If > they move on to their master or minion phase, they have effectively > chosen not to pay. If you forget to gain a pool from the edge, too > bad. If you forgot that you had a master card to play by the time > you're on your third minion action, too bad. Its not quite the same, with the edge you simply forget to benefit from an asset, the same with skipping phases. With costs like Leandros you need to actually make the choice, one way or the other. Do you feel the same way about contestation? if you forget you have conceeded? Surely for things like this.. costs with effects you need to aactivly make the choice, if certain low lifes choose to cheat and gain advantages from this.. thats just the cost of playing with assholes :O) This happened to me when an overly keen and anal player insisted that as I had skipped to master phase, forgetting to pay the one for the grationo contestation I had just the turn before initiated that I had to burn him and conceed, fortunatly the Judge knew the rules and told him to get on with the game :O)

Screaming Vermillian wrote: > LSJ wrote: > Ruling in favor of cheating should be penalized appropriately then > perhaps. Perhaps, but moot, since no official ruling in favor of cheating has ever been made. -- That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet. Keep a little and let a little come back to me. LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ A penalty for trolling, now that would be something!

Johannes Walch wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > Screaming Vermillian wrote: > > > >> ThE OnLy VipeR wrote: > >> > >>> 1.- Do I have to pay Leandro´s penalty to burn a pool and bring a new > >>> vampire to my uncontrolled region? > >> > >> > >> > >> Don't ever fall for the Leandro tax choice during your untap phase. > >> Quickly move on to your master phase faster than someone can remind you > >> to choose to pay the Leando tax or not. You've effectively skipped the > >> opportunity to choose, but come your transfer phase, you STILL MUST > >> CHOOSE. You forgot, right. So now choose. Hence cheating effectively. > >> Genious. (can't be forced to choose) > > > > > > Genious is right. > > Cheating is still cheating and should be penalized appropriately > > (i.e., heavily). > > But how to prove it was done intentionally? I am sure everybody here > forgot to pay for Leandro during the untap quite often as I did. So it > is a very common case that people actually really forget to decide, how > to seperate them from the people that willingly "forget" to decide? IMHO > that´s not possible. Give the offending player a caution the first time he forgets to declare whether or not he will pay for Leandro. Give the offending player a warning the second time he forgets to declare whether or not he will pay for Leandro. Give the offending player a game loss the third time he forgets to declare whether or not he will pay for Leandro. Tell all other players at the table, especially his predator and his prey, that they are stupid not to watch over what their enemy does. :-) Hardy Range Prince of Bochum, Germany http://www.vekn.de

Sure it's the same. As I said in the second part of my post, some allowances could, and SHOULD be made, especially when playing in a friendly group, or with newbies. Remind people the first couple of times to pay to contest. After that, it's your job to remember. By forgetting to gain from the edge, you have chosen not to utilize it's benefits. By forgetting to play a master card, you have chosen not to play one. If you forget to give a vampire a blood from a Hunting Ground, they'll just have to go a little hungry. By forgetting to pay for contestation, you have chosen to yield. Now don't get me wrong, I'm actually glad that the judge ruled in your favor, though. I, personally would have allowed you to pay to contest, especially since it was the first turn after the contestation. I may have reminded you a second time, but the third time, I would have let it go until your turn was over and by then it's just too damned late. This is more than fair. It's not your job (nor anyone else's) to police every table, all of the time, just to make sure that everyone is remembering everything that they need to during their appropriate phases. Besides, in my experience with Leandro (and they have been numerous), usually by the second time, everyone at the table has incentive to remind someone else to "pay their Leandro Tax."

> Ground, they'll just have to go a little hungry. By forgetting to pay > for contestation, you have chosen to yield. Contestation *is* different as far as I know. It is a choice unlike your other examples that requires a specific non-default answer (since no default answer exists). Leandro is much the same. The reason is because these are "must" decisions. They are not optional in the way that gaining from the edge, using a hunting ground, or playing a master card are optional. There is no default assumption that forgetting to pay suggests yielding. I would make allowances for casual or newbie play (as would most, I'd imagine), but in a tournament, I'd remind a player to make a decision. Or penalize him if it's clear he's trying to gain an advantage by maliciously "forgetting" until it's relevant each turn. Ankur

mrjay1000 wrote: > By forgetting to pay > for contestation, you have chosen to yield. Equivalently: By forgetting to yield, you have chosen to pay. The resulting contradiction is yet another way to illustrate that the choice must be made. Neither yielding nor paying to contest is a default. The choice has no default.

On 12 Oct 2005 05:08:14 -0700, HardyRange <hardy...@gmx.de> wrote: > Give the offending player a caution the first time he forgets to > declare whether or not he will pay for Leandro. > > Give the offending player a warning the second time he forgets to > declare whether or not he will pay for Leandro. > > Give the offending player a game loss the third time he forgets to > declare whether or not he will pay for Leandro. > > Tell all other players at the table, especially his predator and his > prey, that they are stupid not to watch over what their enemy does. Why are they stupid? According to this procedure, by "not watching" they effectively get rid of a potential competitor. ;) -- Bye, Daneel

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:22:42 +0200, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] The Judge could just as easily give the player controlling Leandro a caution-warning-ejection for not reminding players of the effect, if the judge thought they were remembering but intentionally not reminding the affected forgetful player. cheating is cheating. salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

[ quoted text not captured ] And from my point of view it愀 quite good for the game that there is NO "forget and yield" rule. Forgetting to take a pool for the edge costs you one pool. Yielding (unintentionally) a vampire can very likely cost you the game (usually you have paid something like 6-10 pool to contest a important guy). It愀 ok to penalize people if they have less attention and concentration than others, but making them loose the game is not an appropriate penalty here. -- johannes walch

I understand this, but in a tournament, shouldn't there be something done to prevent people from gaining an advantage, intentional or not?

mrjay1000 wrote: > I understand this, but in a tournament, shouldn't there be something > done to prevent people from gaining an advantage, intentional or not? Yes. The tournament rules stipulate exactly that.

I know the tournament rules stipulate that, but how would people respond to this as a judge? As stated before, by forgetting to pay to contest, you have chosen to yield, but by forgetting to yield, you have chosen to pay. Should you force the person to pay the pool and yield the card? Forcing the person to pay could be advantageous, but so could forcing them to yield. That's a bit extreme, I know, but how else would you handle it?

[ quoted text not captured ] Remind. Warn. Warn. Penalize. Remove from tournament. Ankur

[ quoted text not captured ] You forgot the 6th Level: Out of Game Beating. :) Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

mrjay1000 wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] As a guy coming into the middle of this discussion, without quoted text, no one has any idea of what you are talking about. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "So in conclusion, our business plan is to sell hot, easily spilled liquids to naked people." -Brittni Meil

mrjay1000 wrote: > I know the tournament rules stipulate that, but how would people > respond to this as a judge? However is appropriate for the situation. In most cases, that amounts to: make the decision and play on. > As stated before, by forgetting to pay to > contest, you have chosen to yield, but by forgetting to yield, you have > chosen to pay. Should you force the person to pay the pool and yield > the card? Forcing the person to pay could be advantageous, but so > could forcing them to yield. That's a bit extreme, I know, but how > else would you handle it? As stated before, you do not force them to do one or force them to do the other. Neither is the default. If "decide and play" isn't "fair" (and it usually is), then rewind game state to the point where the decision should have been made. If that isn't an option (and it usually isn't), then apply a suitable remedy.

>> Remind. Warn. Warn. Penalize. Remove from tournament. > > You forgot the 6th Level: Out of Game Beating. :) I thought that went without saying. I'm always up for a good beating. Ankur