Ghoul Retainer Questions

I just had lots of fun with Bianca with two Ghoul Retainers and a flamethrower (in a rush deck). Lots of nice burnings. It won't happen again with the same players of course, because they will just block me getting the Ghoul Retainers no matter what the cost. I think I'll change it to using Gangrel, as they can always get what they want :-) A couple of questions about Ghoul Retainers; - Can they use weapons that the vampire steals with first strike (I stole a Femur of Toomler, and then both Ghouls hit with it)- ouch? - Can they use weapons that require a specific clan to use (eg. Sword of Judgement)? Does this change if the vampire is not of the appropriate clan? - Can they use weapons that specify the "vampire using this weapon ... " (empahisis on "vampire" - eg. Femur of Toomler)? While burning lots of vamps, I didn't get any VP, due to kindred restructures and the like, but hey, that's the nature of the beast. Cheers, Andrew. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <8mo694$b67$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hel...@my-deja.com wrote: > A couple of questions about Ghoul Retainers; > - Can they use weapons that the vampire steals with first strike (I > stole a Femur of Toomler, and then both Ghouls hit with it)- ouch? No. Weapons stolen cannot be used the round they are stolen. [6.4.5] Strike Effects http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html > - Can they use weapons that require a specific clan to use (eg. Sword > of Judgement)? No. If it requires a clan to use the weapon, no vampire of another clan, and no ally or retainer may use the weapon. If it only has a clan symbol on the left, like Femur of Toomler, it only requires that clan to bring the equipment into play. Once in play, the equipment can be used by any vampire, ally, or Ghoul Retainer. > Does this change if the vampire is not of the appropriate clan? No. Still cannot use it. > - Can they use weapons that specify the "vampire using this > weapon ... " (empahisis on "vampire" - eg. Femur of Toomler)? Femur says minion with this equipment, so not sure why you used that as your example. But no, if it specifies vampire, the Ghoul Retainer may not use it. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8mo96c$d26$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > In article <8mo694$b67$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > hel...@my-deja.com wrote: > > A couple of questions about Ghoul Retainers; > > - Can they use weapons that the vampire steals with first strike (I > > stole a Femur of Toomler, and then both Ghouls hit with it)- ouch? > > No. Weapons stolen cannot be used the round they are stolen. > [6.4.5] Strike Effects > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html > What if it's a vampire stealing it, can they use it right away using additional strikes? (celerity cards...) Hugues Bertrand [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8mp69k$1mp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, princede...@yahoo.com wrote: > What if it's a vampire stealing it, can they use it right away using > additional strikes? (celerity cards...) > > Hugues Bertrand No. Weapons stolen cannot be used the round they are stolen. [6.4.5] Strike Effects http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

princede...@yahoo.com wrote: > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > hel...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > A couple of questions about Ghoul Retainers; > > > - Can they use weapons that the vampire steals with first strike (I > > > stole a Femur of Toomler, and then both Ghouls hit with it)- ouch? > > > > No. Weapons stolen cannot be used the round they are stolen. > > [6.4.5] Strike Effects > > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html > > > What if it's a vampire stealing it, can they use it right away using > additional strikes? (celerity cards...) No, since Additional Strikes are performed in the same round, and (as stated) stolen equipment cannot be used in the round in which it is stolen. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>>> hel...@my-deja.com wrote: >>> A couple of questions about Ghoul Retainers; >>> - Can they use weapons that the vampire steals with first >>> strike (I stole a Femur of Toomler, and then both Ghouls hit >>> with it)- ouch? >> The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> No. Weapons stolen cannot be used the round they are stolen. >> [6.4.5] Strike Effects >> http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html Not to be a picky bastard, but...ok...to be a picky bastard, but the quoted rule actually says nothing about retainers. Here's the exact wording of the rule: "The equipment may not be used by the stealing minion during the current round of combat." Technically, a Ghoul Retainer is _not_ the stealing minion. In fact, the only criteria that is imposed on whether a Ghoul Retainer can use a weapon is that the "...controlling vampire is not using [the weapon] during that round of combat," which is very true in this case. According to the letter of the law (if not the spirit) you would have to allow Ghoul Retainers to use a weapon stolen that round. LSJ, your thoughts? (I realize I may have to catch him at GenCon on Saturday. Fortunately none of the decks that I might play use Ghoul Retainers and steal equipment.) Regards, Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

Noal McDonald wrote: > >> The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> No. Weapons stolen cannot be used the round they are stolen. > >> [6.4.5] Strike Effects > >> http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html > > Not to be a picky bastard, but...ok...to be a picky bastard, but the > quoted rule actually says nothing about retainers. Here's the exact > wording of the rule: > > "The equipment may not be used by the stealing minion during the current > round of combat." > > Technically, a Ghoul Retainer is _not_ the stealing minion. > LSJ, your thoughts? The "by the stealing minion" bit was intended to be a foil to the sentence that preceded it in the printed V:TES rulebook: "The equipment can still be used on the <round> it is stolen... unless the equipment was stolen with first strike before it could be used. The stolen equipment may not be used by the minion stealing it until the next round of combat." The Revised Rulebook distilled that section down a bit and muddied the issue (or merely failed to sufficiently clarify the issue, depending on how you want to view the V:TES printed text). So, no: Stolen Equipment cannot be used (by a minion or retainer) on the round in which it was stolen. (See also the V:TES card text for most Melee Weapons) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 08 Aug 2000 17:40:49 GMT, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: >"The equipment may not be used by the stealing minion during the current >round of combat." > >Technically, a Ghoul Retainer is _not_ the stealing minion. In fact, the True, but the Ghoul Retainer has already chosen his strike for that round, before the weapon actually is in the controlling vampire's possession. As I understand it, the actual transfer of the weapon happens during strike resolution. Normally, all strikes resolve simultaneously, with the S:CE/Dodge/1st Strike exceptions as noted. If you Fast Hands a weapon with First Strike, you get their weapon BEFORE their strike resolves, and so you don't get shot with it. If you Fast Hands it at inferior, you get the weaponbut STILL get shot with it. However, at the time you declare strikes, your Ghoul Retainer is forced to declare 'hands for 1', since you don't have the weapon yet. The original ruling was made in response to someone who wanted to play Fast Hands/Blur, I believe. >during that round of combat," which is very true in this case. According >to the letter of the law (if not the spirit) you would have to allow >Ghoul Retainers to use a weapon stolen that round. Fortunately, Ghoul Retainers cannot generate additional strikes, or another ruling would be necessary. ;) -- Derek Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta

In article <8mpgn1$8nf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote: > > >>> hel...@my-deja.com wrote: > >>> A couple of questions about Ghoul Retainers; > >>> - Can they use weapons that the vampire steals with first > >>> strike (I stole a Femur of Toomler, and then both Ghouls hit > >>> with it)- ouch? > > >> The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> No. Weapons stolen cannot be used the round they are stolen. > >> [6.4.5] Strike Effects > >> http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html > > Not to be a picky bastard, but...ok...to be a picky bastard, but the > quoted rule actually says nothing about retainers. Here's the exact > wording of the rule: > > "The equipment may not be used by the stealing minion during the current > round of combat." > > Technically, a Ghoul Retainer is _not_ the stealing minion. In fact, the > only criteria that is imposed on whether a Ghoul Retainer can use a > weapon is that the "...controlling vampire is not using [the weapon] > during that round of combat," which is very true in this case. According > to the letter of the law (if not the spirit) you would have to allow > Ghoul Retainers to use a weapon stolen that round. > > LSJ, your thoughts? Here are all the clarifications/errata/rulings on Ghoul Retainer: Ghoul Retainer - Retainer (2) Read as "Each round of combat, Ghoul uses hands for 1 damage or a weapon of the employing minion that the minion is not presently using." [RTR 19941109] More than one Ghoul Retainer employed by a Minion could "use" the same weapon (that the Minion is not using) at the same time. [TOM 19950921] The Ghoul is never the "bearer" of the weapon that it uses. Any side-effect of using the weapon (e.g. Zip Gun, Grenade) is applied to the Employing minion, as normal. [TOM 19951114] Per the third one, any restrictions on the employing minion should apply to the Ghoul as well, but it is not explicitly stated. Guess we'll have to wait and see. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8mp69k$1mp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, princede...@yahoo.com wrote: > In article <8mo96c$d26$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > In article <8mo694$b67$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > hel...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > A couple of questions about Ghoul Retainers; > > > - Can they use weapons that the vampire steals with first strike (I > > > stole a Femur of Toomler, and then both Ghouls hit with it)- ouch? > > > > No. Weapons stolen cannot be used the round they are stolen. > > [6.4.5] Strike Effects > > http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html > > > What if it's a vampire stealing it, can they use it right away using > additional strikes? (celerity cards...) > > Hugues Bertrand > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > I would say yes... [ quoted text not captured ]

>> "The equipment may not be used by the stealing minion during the >> current round of combat." > > The Revised Rulebook distilled that section down a bit and muddied > the issue (or merely failed to sufficiently clarify the issue, > depending on how you want to view the V:TES printed text). Hrm. It seems to me that you could distill it further and remove the apparent loophole by removing the phrase, "by the stealing minion." The alternative is to add the phrase, "or its retainers." Either way would work. Of course, any last minute revisions to the rulebook have come and gone, so I suppose a line of errata *cringe* could be added under Ghoul Retainer. The problem with that is that there's no easy way of stating that restrictions that apply to the minion, with respect to use of weapons, also apply to the Ghoul Retainer when you take DotB, Terror Frenzy, Frenzy, etc. into account. > (See also the V:TES card text for most Melee Weapons) Huh? What should I be looking for that applies to this? Regards, Noal McDonald Prince/Priscus of Farmington Hills, MI -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]