[LONG] Official Las Vegas Storyline Tournament Report

LAS VEGAS STORYLINE TOURNAMENT FEB. 23, 2002 AT CHEESE BOY COMICS IN LAS VEGAS Note: This tournament report is VERY LONG, as it provides complete coverage of the Final Round. I took great pains to write down *everything* that happened in the final, and I've included some of my own comments as well. I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it. Regards, Keith M. Thompson Prince of Las Vegas Storyline Tournament Organizer: Keith M. Thompson, Prince of Las Vegas Storyline Tournament Historian: Keith M. Thompson, Prince of Las Vegas Storyline Tournament Head Judge: Keith M. Thompson, Prince of Las Vegas [NOTE: The Multi-Judge System was used in this tournament to create two tables of four players. Keith M. Thompson recused himself from participation in the Final round, thus allowing John Wasson to advance as the 5th seed.] Order of finish after 3 rounds of open play: 1. Brad Ward (North Las Vegas; RAVNOS) -- 3 WINS, 10 VP, 180 TP [included one 4-player sweep] 2. Daniel Pelletier (North Las Vegas; GANGREL) -- 2 WINS, 7 VP, 138 TP [included one 4-player sweep] 3. Steve Munson (Las Vegas; FOLLOWERS OF SET) -- 1 WIN, 5 VP, 156 TP 4. Mike Sanderson (Elko; MALKAVIAN) -- 0 WINS, 2 VP, 114 TP 5. John Wasson (Elko; GANGREL) -- 0 WINS, 0 VP, 74 TP 6. Keith M. Thompson (Las Vegas; ALLIES/TREMERE ANTI-TRIBU) -- 0 WINS, 0 VP, 74 TP 7. Brian Iverson (Elko; TREMERE) -- 0 WINS, 0 VP, 64 TP 8. Norman Wasson (Elko; ASSAMITE) -- 0 WINS, 0 VP, 64 TP Order of finish after the Final round: 1. Brad Ward -- 0 WINS, 1.5 VP [Brad Ward "wins" the tournament based on his prior open round record.] 2. Daniel Pelletier -- 0 WINS, 1.5 VP 3. Mike Sanderson -- 0 WINS, 1 VP 4. Steve Munson -- 0 WINS, 0 VP [Steve Munson claims 4th place based on his prior open round record.] 5. John Wasson -- 0 WINS, 0 VP RAVNOS SEIZE CONTROL OF BALTIMORE FROM THE VERY "WOLF" CLAWS OF THE GANGREL The final round turned out to be a complete "showdown" between the Ravnos and their hated rivals, the Gangrel. The Gangrel even had the upper hand, as two Methuselahs attempted to manipulate various Gangrel to complete their plan and gain control of the city of Baltimore. The sneaky Malkavians and "snakey" Followers of Set could do little but watch as the Ravnos ran roughshod over all comers. In the end it was the Ravnos and the foretold Week of Nightmares that claimed victory in Baltimore and forced the Gangrel to scurry for cover. Seating for the Final round: 1. Daniel Pelletier (GANGREL) -- first player 2. Mike Sanderson (MALKAVIAN) 3. Steve Munson (FOLLOWERS OF SET) 4. Brad Ward (RAVNOS) 5. John Wasson (GANGREL) First Turn: Dan and Mike play no Master Cards and influence. Steve influences and reveals Khalil Anvari. Brad just influences. John influences and reveals Roman Alexander. Second Turn: Dan influences and reveals Chandler Hungerford. (A good choice since his predator is playing Gangrel, and Chandler gets +1 intercept against any Gangrel.) Mike just influences. Steve plays Presence on Khalil and has Khalil get a Laptop Computer. (No one can oppose this move at this time.) Steve then influences and reveals Hadrian Garrick. Brad influences and reveals Joaquina Amaya. John plays a Zoo HG. Then he has Roman Alexander attempt to get a Vial of Garou Blood. Chandler Hungerford is all too eager to block (with his built in +1 intercept). Combat ensues. Roman shows Claws of the Dead. Chandler Dodges. John opts not to influence. Third Turn: Dan has Chandler Computer Hack his minionless prey and gains the Edge. Dan then influences and reveals Anastasia Grey. Mike influences and finally shows TWO vampires--Muriel, Lady Thunder and Zoe. Steve has Khalil get a Flak Jacket (unopposed), and then influences. (Not much aggression from the stealth/bleed FoS! Perhaps they made a non-aggression pact with the Ravnos of which I was unaware.) Brad has Joaquina Amaya get Ablative Skin (unopposed), and then she Freak Drives and recruits a Raven Spy (also unopposed). Then Brad influences. John has Roman attempt Shepherd's Innocence (Whoa! I didn't see that one coming!) on Joaquina's new Raven Spy. Joaquina Forces herself Awake and blocks with help from her Raven Spy (+1 intercept). Combat ensues. Joaquina summons more birds, Carrion Crows, to help her fight the Gangrel Roman Alexander. Both vampires decide to keep it close, and Roman, once again, reveals deadly Wolf Claws. Joaquina responds with a simple hand strike (bitch slap?), and the Crows and hand strike send poor, overly aggressive Roman to torpor. Meanwhile, Joaquina shrugs off the deadly Wolf Claw strike with Unflinching Persistence. (Of course, had John remembered to use his Zoo HG to heal a blood point on Roman Alexander from his last fight with Chandler, Roman would not have gone to torpor so easily.) John then thinks the best of it and influences. (At this point, Daniel raised the issue of which counters represented John's pool, since Daniel, John, and Brad were all using the same kind of blood/pool counters, and Daniel stated that he might have been using John's pool as the bank. I counted up all the costs of cards and vampires and discovered that John was indeed short one pool. I gave both John and Daniel a verbal warning to keep their pool completely separate from each other (especially since they were using the same kind of counters).) Fourth Turn: Dan gains one pool for holding the Edge! Anastasia Grey recruits the Vagabond Mystic (unopposed). Then Chandler Computer Hacks his prey. Zoe blocks, but then Chandler "gets wispy" and turns into a Form of Mist, ending the combat and continuing the Computer Hack bleed at +1 stealth. Zoe Wakes with Evening's Freshness, but failing to have the requisite +1 intercept, she once again fails to block Chandler. The Computer Hack bleed succeeds. (In hindsight (of course), Mike's best play here would have been to have Muriel, Lady Thunder tap to end the combat before either vampire could declare strikes. This would have prevented the Form of Mist from taking place. Of course, playing the Wake without any intercept in hand is nothing more than a mere card cycle, but even then you can't replace the Wake until your next untap phase, so it's a restricted card cycle at that.) Dan influences and reveals Ricki Van Dempsey. Mike plays The Rack and assigns it to Muriel. Zoe recruits the Muddled Vampire Hunter (unopposed). Then Mike influences and finishes his turn. Steve has Khalil hunt (since he's now 4 with the Presence discipline card). Then Steve influences and reveals Kephamos, High Priest of Marrakesh. (This lack of forward motion by the Followers of Set is particularly "fishy", especially in light of Brad playing a Forced Awakening to defend his Raven Spy last turn. Perhaps a non-aggression pact has been made after all!) Brad plays a Park HG. Then Joaquina summons forth an Army of Rats (unopposed). Brad influences and reveals Konstantin, Baro of the Caravan. John's turn is quick this time. Roman Alexander untaps in torpor. Then John plays The Backways. (This is illegal since John has no "ready" Gangrel, but I missed it. Oops!). Then John influences and Gunther, Beast Lord arrives. Fifth Turn: Dan gains another pool for holding the Edge! Dan then plays Society of Leopold on Muriel, Lady Thunder. (Ouch! Good thing she has the keys to the bar (The Rack).) The Vagabond Mystic gets a Leather Jacket. Anastasia Grey gets a Flak Jacket. Ricki Van Dempsey attempts to Arson The Backways, but Gunther defends the stealth location. Ricki swings with a Lucky Blow, but Gunther disappears into the ground with an Earth Meld. Finally, Chandler attempts a straight bleed, which the Muddled Vampire Hunter blocks. Once again, Chandler "gets wispy" and turns into Mist continuing the bleed at +1 stealth. Unlike last time, however, Muriel steps in to block Chandler with a Spirit's Touch, and combat ensues. Chandler strikes a Lucky Blow with his Wolf Claws, but Muriel Dodges. Daniel chooses not to influence. Mike starts his turn, and poor Muriel loses a blood to the Society of Leopold. Fortunately, The Rack keeps Muriel full of blood. Mike plays the Asylum HG, and suddenly, things don't look so bad for Muriel. Mike sends the Muddled Vampire Hunter after Anastasia Grey, but Ana "gets wispy" (Form of Mist) and dodges the Hunter's 4 strength first strike. Mike then turns his attention on his prey and bleeds with Muriel. Hadrian Garrick attempts to block, but Muriel gets Lost in Crowds (+2 stealth) and easily gets through. Muriel wasn't just messing around either, as she Conditions the bleed for 4. Mike earns the Edge! Then Mike influences and reveals Cornelius Octavio. Once again Steve doesn't play a Master card, and he decides to send Kephamos over to steal The Rack for himself (unopposed). (An OK move as The Rack and the Asylum HG can render the Society of Leopold on Muriel effectively useless. However, the Malkavians are packing lots of stealth, and the Followers of Set apparently have no intercept, so the Malkavians could always steal The Rack back.) Then Steve declares the end of his turn without influencing. (Once again, the Followers of Set do nothing! Perhaps they are "turtling" so as to better prepare for Final Death? Stealthy, bleedy Malkavians will surely finish the job they started!) Brad untaps, and his Army of Rats do one damage to John's pool. Joaquina recovers one blood point from the Park HG. No Master Card. Then Brad sends Konstantin over to visit the Followers of Set whereupon he liberates Khalil of his Laptop Computer (via Konstantin's special ability). Joaquina follows up by bleeding her prey for two with a Fata Morgana. Brad gains the Edge! Brad chooses not to influence. John untaps Gunther, and then has him call Meddling of Semsith. No one blocks, and then John targets his prey Dan with the Meddling vote. Strangely, Kephamos, High Priest of Marrakesh, (John's grand predator) votes two votes against, and the vote fails. (I guess the Followers of Set wanted to have "some" affect on the Storyline Final!) John influences and ends his turn. Sixth Turn: Dan untaps and then puts Memories of Mortality on Cornelius Octavio. (Can you smell a Renegade Garou?) Chandler Hungerford attempts to recruit (what else?) a Renegade Garou. Zoe attempts to block with Enhanced Senses at superior (+2 intercept). The block succeeds, and the two vampires "start a fight". In combat, Chandler does what Chandler does best: Form of Mist. Combat ends, and Chandler continues to try to recruit the Garou, now at +2 stealth. However, Zoe has a trick or two up her sleeve, and she Wakes with Evening's Freshness and reblocks the recruit action (since her +2 intercept lasts for the duration of the entire recruit action). Combat ensues once again, and the two vampires hand strike one another. The Vagabond Mystic gets a Flak Jacket (to go with his Leather Jacket). Ricki Van Dempsey finds herself the proud owner of a new Sport Bike. Anastasia gets a Leather Jacket (to go with her Flak Jacket). Then Anastasia untaps (via Leather Jacket) thus signaling the end of Dan's turn. Mike untaps and Muriel loses a blood to the Society of Leopold, but fortunately the Asylum HG puts the blood point back on Muriel. For his Master Phase action, Mike puts a Blood Doll on Cornelius Octavio. Then Mike sends Muriel forward to bleed Steve once again. Hadrian Garrick attempts to block again, but Muriel bleeds during a Faceless Night, so Hadrian stays tapped while Muriel bleeds for one. Mike regains the Edge! (Probably) tired of Chandler's "get wispy" act, Mike commands the Muddled Vampire Hunter to hunt down Chandler. Anastasia blocks the Hunter, however, and with her newly acquired Leather Jacket, the Hunter decides it's best to Dodge (with First Strike! yeah!). Mike then ends his turn. Steve continues his Master Card drought and steps right to the Minion Phase. The "mighty" Khalil Enchants Kindred at superior (unopposed). Then Kephamos takes the "unlikely" action to Social Charm his prey. (The Followers of Set finally go forward!) Joaquina Forces Awake and blocks Kephamos. Joaquina once again summons Carrion Crows to help her in combat, but Kephamos just Stares Joaquina Down and dodges her hand strike (but not the Crows, which do two points of damage to Kephamos). Hadrian Garrick stays untapped to guard. Steve then pulls back the two blood from the Enchant Kindred and bolsters his pool. Brad untaps and his Army of Rats does its second point of damage to John. He then plays Mob Connections as his Master Card. Brad, sensing an opening against his prey, sends Konstantin forward to bleed for two with his newly acquired Laptop Computer. John responds with a Rats' Warning and untaps Gunther, who attempts to block. Brad wants no part of Gunther right now, so he plays Fata Morgana to increase Konstantin's bleed by one and give Konstantin +1 stealth. However, John seemed prepared for this, as he plays Elder Intervention on Gunther giving ol' Gunther +2 intercept against the bleed. Combat ensues. Konstantin opens with a Zip Gun, but chooses to keep it close to see what Gunther has in mind. Konstantin strikes with his hands, as does Gunther, but Gunther's hands are actually Wolf Claws! Undeterred, Konstanin taps his reserve of Hidden Strength and prevents the aggravated Wolf Claw strike. Then, Konstantin presses the combat for another round with his Hidden Strength. Gunther, wanting no more of Konstantin, attempts to back out by pressing to end with his Rats' Warning. Konstantin is determined to press the combat forward, however, and he calls upon his Mob Connections to force round two. The two vampires exchange hand strikes, Konstantin uses Unflinching Persistence to prevent Gunther's hand strike, and then Konstantin Freak Drives to untap. Joaquina then follows Konstantin's lead and successfully bleeds for two with a Fata Morgana. Brad reclaims the Edge! John untaps and wisely uses the Zoo HG to give Gunther a blood point back. Then he plays Anarch Troublemaker as his Master Card. Gunther finally makes the effort to try to rescue Roman from torpor. Joaquina Wakes with Evening's Freshness and attempts to block the rescue attempt (+1 intercept from a Raven Spy). Gunther employs Earth Control to get an additional +1 stealth. Joaquina counters with Cats' Guidance for an additional +1 intercept. Gunther then makes use of The Backways and successfully rescues Roman Alexander from torpor. However, Roman is hungry from being in torpor so long, so he immediately proceeds to hunt to regain some "strength". Joaquina, making great use of her Raven Spy, Wakes with Evening's Freshness and blocks Roman's hunt. (Poor, overly aggressive Roman must face combat with the "bird woman" once again!) Joaquina proceeds to pull out a Zip Gun, but no matter: Roman goes back to the earth and Earth Melds to end the combat. John then influences and reveals Bear Paw. Seventh Turn: Dan untaps and continues his assault on Muriel, Lady Thunder, this time giving her Vampiric Disease! Anastasia Grey attempts to bleed but is blocked by Cornelius Octavio. In the ensuing combat, both vampires just hand strike each other for one, which would be unremarkable except that Anastasia then burns her Leather Jacket to prevent Cornelius's hand strike. (Using the Flak Jacket would have been a better option, in my opinion.) The meaning of this then becomes clear as Anastasia Pulls Cornelius's Fangs. (Ouch!) Ricki Van Dempsey then takes the Leather Jacket and Flak Jacket from the Vagabond Mystic. (An argument broke out about whether Ricki would untap at the end of the turn after taking the Leather Jacket from the Vagabond Mystic. I said no, but Brad wanted to argue the point. I emphatically told him my answer was "No, Ricki does not untap." However, I agreed to refer the issue to L. Scott Johnson for future clarification. I also told Brad to stop arguing with me. Any future dissent of such a volatile nature would be grounds for a warning or worse!) Chandler remains vigilant (untapped) against a Gangrel predator. Mike untaps and poor Muriel suffers two damage (one from Vampiric Disease and another from the Society of Leopold). (I wonder if Mike knows the Society of Leopold can be "moved" to another vampire.) Mike then moves a blood point to Cornelius via the Asylum HG, and then moves a blood from Cornelius to his pool (thereby entering the Master Phase). Mike then plays Madness Network as his Master Card. Ever relentless, Mike commands the Muddled Vampire Hunter to hunt down Anastasia Grey (sans Leather Jacket, oops!). Seeing no more use for him, Daniel throws the Vagabond Mystic in the Hunter's path. Suffice to say, the Vagabond Mystic died quickly! Then Mike sends Cornelius Octavio forward at Steve with a Dominate Kine bleed. (Note: I didn't catch this at the time, but Cornelius cannot do this action as he doesn't have dominate! (Probably due to the whole "Leather Jacket" argument that occurred just before this.) Sorry, Steve. This was a major error on my part.) Steve has no intercept, so he takes a bleed of four at +1 stealth. (Cornelius Octavio bleeds Steve for 3 because Steve is playing with Independent vampires.) Mike recovers the Edge! Steve untaps, and Kephamos recovers two blood points from The Rack. But once again, Steve has no Master Card to play. Steve sends Kephamos forward to bleed with Social Charm, but he is blocked by Konstantin. Konstantin reveals another Zip Gun, and Kephamos simply Stares Konstantin Down and dodges. As combat is ending, Konstantin plays a Cats' Guidance and untaps. Hadrian Garrick gets a Leather Jacket (unopposed). Khalil Anvari recruits a Priestess of Sekhmet (which appears to be a card cycle at this point). Brad untaps, uses his Park HG on Konstantin, and the Army of Rats do their third point of damage to John. Brad then puts Powerbase: Montreal into play. Brad then commands Konstantin to go forth and bleed his prey. Bear Paw blocks. Combat ensues. Konstantin summons Carrion Crows and pulls out a second Zip Gun. Konstantin then goes to long range with one of his Zip Guns. Bear Paw can only watch. Konstantin rips Bear Paw with his Zip Gun, while the Carrion Crows do another two points of damage. Then, Konstantin uses Hidden Strength to prevent his own Zip Gun damage and to press the combat for another round. Konstantin then switches to the second Zip Gun, maneuvers to long range once again, and blasts Bear Paw for another three points of damage (with the Carrion Crows). Bear Paw goes straight to torpor. Joaquina then gets Masochism. Brad uses the Powerbase and then ends his turn. John untaps and uses the Zoo HG to give Roman Alexander a much needed blood point. John then uses the Anarch Troublemaker to tap Chandler Hungerford. Gunther bleeds for one. Then Roman Alexander Computer Hacks for two! John gets the Edge! Low on pool, John does not influence. Eighth Turn: Dan untaps (and wonders where his Renegade Garou are hiding!). He plays Eco-Terrorists (for pool gain). Anastasia Grey gets another Leather Jacket (to replace the last one). Ricki Van Dempsey opts to take out the Madness Network. Muriel, Lady Thunder blocks. Ricki and Muriel keep it close so Ricki becomes infected with Vampiric Disease. Ricki socks Muriel with a Lucky Blow. Muriel responds with a hand strike. Then Ricki Pulls Muriel's Fangs. (Double ouch!!) Chandler tries once again to recruit a Renegade Garou, and Zoe, once again, attempts to stop him with a Spirit's Touch. Combat ensues. Chandler, being Chandler, "gets wispy" again and successfully recruits the Garou. (Daniel quietly rejoices!) Dan tries to use Eco-Terrorists after he's already discarded, but I tell him no, the Influence Phase occurs PRIOR to the Discard Phase. Dan is non-plussed but accepts the ruling. Mike untaps and Muriel has an interesting untap phase. Muriel has one blood on her, so Mike chooses to resolve the Society of Leopold first. Then Mike resolves the Vampiric Disease. (Muriel loses nothing to Vampiric Disease since she has no blood to lose in the first place.) Then, Mike chooses to use the Asylum HG to give Muriel one blood. (Because of Muriel's Pulled Fangs, she needs this blood, or else she will go straight to torpor.) (Sadly, another argument broke out at this point regarding the "timing" of various cards like Vampiric Disease. Brad and Daniel were both adamant that their interpretation was the correct one (of course), and I knew we were in trouble when they started reaching for their "little" rulebooks. However, I KNOW all affects during an untap/master/influence/discard/end phase, even Palacial Estate, despite its wording that it occur "first" in the Master Phase, can be ordered in whatever order the active Methuselah decides. I overruled Brad and Dan and gave Brad a stern warning not to argue with the Judge anymore!) Mike then has Cornelius Octavio bleed Steve with Govern the Unaligned (a bleed of 5). Steve is down to 6 pool, so he has to try to stop it. Hadrian Garrick tries to block. Cornelius then gets +1 stealth from Swallowed by the Night, and he gets through . . . EXCEPT I look more carefully at Cornelius and realize that he doesn't have dominate! (which I should have caught last round!) We back up the action, replace cards to the Library, and start over. (I also give Mike two verbal warnings for misrepresentation and revealing cards.) He then has Muriel (with one blood at this point) bleed Steve with Govern the Unaligned. Steve contemplates blocking, but then declines! (Steve knew Mike had a Swallowed by the Night in his hand, so why he didn't try to block is beyond me!) Muriel successfully bleeds for three. Mike gets the Edge! Then Cornelius Octavio bleeds for three (naturally), Hadrian Garrick tries to block, and then Cornelius gets Swallowed by the Night (+1 stealth) and successfully takes Steve Munson out of the game. (It's too bad Mike couldn't steal The Rack back for Muriel before Steve died!) With 6 fresh pool, Mike decides to influence. Brad untaps and once again his Army of Rats does its thing to John (4 damage now). Brad then plays Dreams of the Sphinx. John is down to 2 pool at this point, so Brad has Joaquina bleed John Wasson out with Fata Morgana. Brad gets the Edge and 6 pool! Konstantin gets Masochism, then Freak Drives to untap. Brad uses the Powerbase: Montreal and Dreams of the Sphinx during his influence phase. (He chooses to horde pool against a stealthy Malkavian predator--good thinking!) Ninth Turn: Dan untaps, Ricki loses a blood to Vampiric Disease, and Dan uses the Anarch Troublemaker (from John) to tap Zoe. (The Anarch Troublemaker cannot tap allies, so the Muddled Vampire Hunter remains untapped.) Dan then plays Memories of Mortality on Konstantin. Anastasia attempts to Computer Hack her prey, but she is blocked by the Muddled Vampire Hunter. Anastasia swings with her hands, and the Muddled Vampire Hunter responds with a Dodge. (Once again, Anastasia is spared by the mere "threat" of her Leather Jacket.) Chandler then Computer Hacks for two and is successful. Dan gains the Edge! Sensing Mike is out of "Wakes", Dan commands the Renegade Garou to go after Cornelius Octavio. Cornelius is utterly defenseless against the Garou, and the Garou quickly puts Cornelius in torpor. (Cornelius couldn't even hurt the "Big Dog" because of the Memories of Mortality.) This time Dan uses the Eco-Terrorists properly, pulls the blood back to his pool and ends his turn. Mike untaps and Muriel has another interesting untap phase. Mike resolves Vampiric Disease first since Muriel is out of blood at this point. (She had to pay one blood for the Govern the Unaligned bleed last turn.) Then Mike assigns one blood point to Muriel courtesy of the Asylum HG. Mike then uses the blood on Muriel to "satisfy" the Society of Leopold and prevent Muriel's destruction. Finally, Mike uses the Anarch Troublemaker to tap Konstantin. (Whew! One long untap phase! In my opinion, Mike should have kept the Anarch Troublemaker, though.) Mike then Minion Taps Muriel for 0 blood. Because Muriel is out of blood, she can only hunt this turn, but since Muriel's Fangs are Pulled, she cannot hunt, and instead she must go to torpor (untapped). (Muriel is a lost cause at this point, so attempting to save her is pointless. I think a better move for the HG blood would have been to give it to Zoe, who was short one.) Zoe and the Muddled Vampire Hunter remain untapped to block. Mike influences and reveals Ozmo. Brad untaps and his Army of Rats do another point of damage, this time to Dan. Brad then uses the Anarch Troublemaker to destroy Ricki's brand new (and never used) Sport Bike. The Rack sees play once again, this time controlled by Joaquina. Joaquina then gets a second Raven Spy (unopposed). Konstantin steals Ricki's Flak Jacket, which succeeds because Dan's only intercept has been destroyed. Brad influences (using Powerbase: Montreal and Dreams of the Sphinx) and reveals Sarisha Veliku. Tenth Turn: Dan untaps and Ricki loses another blood to Vampiric Disease. Dan then declares Zoe is Famous (Fame). Dan then sends Chandler forward to bleed. Mike doesn't block but calmly plays Telepathic Counter through Zoe. The bleed is unsuccessful. Dan then sends the Garou forth to smash Zoe, but Ozmo intercepts with a Spirit's Touch. Ozmo tries to maneuver away from the Garou (with Spirit's Touch), but the Garou closes up the gap (with his built in optional maneuver). The Garou crushes Ozmo with a Lucky Blow. Ozmo responds with a mere hand strike. The Garou swings again (second strike) with (*gasp*) another Lucky Blow! Ozmo is stunned; he has no blood left on him. Then, horror of all horrors, the Garou Pulls Ozmo's Fangs!!! Ozmo goes spiraling into torpor. The Garou licks Ozmo's entrails from his fingers and then lights a cigarette! (Brutal!) Anastasia successfully bleeds for one (all those "Jackets" certainly help). Then Ricki Van Dempsey attempts to bleed. The Muddled Vampire Hunter attempts to block (licking his own chops no doubt), but Ricki dives into the earth (Earth Control) and sneaks by the Hunter. Dan's minion phase ends. Then Zoe, using the Madness Network, attempts to rescue poor Ozmo from torpor paying her last two blood to do so. The rescue succeeds! Dan uses the Eco-Terrorists for pool gain and ends his turn. Mike untaps and wisely uses the Asylum HG to give Ozmo a blood point (lest he go to torpor with Pulled Fangs). Then Mike plays the Metro Underground. The "Famous" Zoe, being fresh out of blood, has to hunt. Mike's prey Brad declines to block. Mike's predator Dan declines to block. (Zoe hunts at 0 stealth, remember.) Then, Dan, realizing Zoe hunts at 0 stealth, attempts to play a Wake with Evening's Freshness on Anastasia Grey. I tell him playing the Wake is fine, but he can't block Zoe's hunt with Anastasia because he already declined to block. He argues that he didn't decline to block yet, despite several observers who confirmed that he did, in fact, declare his intentions not to block. I tell him, sorry, but the opportunity has passed, and the Wake was played. Dan then argues that since Mike already put a blood on Zoe, he couldn't legally play his Wake when he did. I tell him that's fine, put the Wake back in your hand, and you get a warning for revealing cards. (Brad and Dan both accumulated a lot of warnings in this tournament! Next time I'll be even stricter!) "Famous" Zoe hunts successfully. Ozmo tries to bleed. Joaquina Forces herself Awake and attempts to block with +2 intercept (from the two Raven Spies). Ozmo tries to get Lost in Crowds (+1 stealth at minor), but this is not enough to get past "The Bird Lady". Mike plays a Bonding to cycle for stealth (Ozmo has minor dominate), but he fails to find any more stealth for Ozmo. Combat ensues. Joaquina, true to form, summons more Carrion Crows to her aid. Ozmo maneuvers long with a Behind You! Joaquina closes the gap with an Unflinching Persistence. Ozmo takes three damage (one from Joaquina's hand strike and two from the Carrion Crows) and goes to torpor. Ever persistent in his duties, the Muddled Vampire Hunter once again attempts to "stake" a Gangrel, this time Chandler. Unfortunately, because Dan successfully argued to keep his Wake with Evening's Freshness, he plays it on Anastasia, who blocks the Hunter. Anastasia absorbs the 4 point hand strike with her Leather Jacket, and then simply smacks the Hunter to oblivion. Brad untaps and his Army of Rats does a second point of damage to Dan.(6 points of damage altogether!) Brad fills Joaquina with The Rack, uses his HG on Konstantin, and then plays Week of Nightmares. Joaquina successfully bleeds for two (with the Week of Nightmares). Konstantin then steals Anastasia Grey's Flak Jacket, Freak Drives, and then bleeds for three (with the Laptop and WoN). Sarisha follows suit with a bleed for two. Brad most certainly gains the Edge! Eleventh Turn: Dan untaps and Ricki, having no more blood to lose, doesn't lose any blood to Vampiric Disease. Dan plays Memories of Mortality on Joaquina. Ricki hunts but gains no blood due to the Vampiric Disease. However, Ricki finally loses the Disease counter. The Garou rushes Zoe and puts her in torpor. Mike was at 4 pool just before this, so the "Famous" Zoe costs him 3 pool when she "takes a dirt nap". Chandler and Anastasia both get Leather Jackets. Dan uses the Eco-Terrorists and ends his turn. Mike untaps and with no ready minions and no way to stay alive, Mike Sanderson dies to the "Famous" Zoe. Dan gains 6 fresh pool. (Time is winding down at this point as the 5 minute warning went off during Dan's turn.) Brad untaps, and the trusty Army of Rats does its third point of damage to Dan. (7 points of damage altogether! Wow!) Brad is rushed, so he forgets the Edge and the Park HG. Konstantin attempts to bleed, but he is blocked by Chandler. Konstantin adds a Fata Morgana to the bleed to skirt past Chandler and bleed for 4. Then he Freak Drives to remain untapped. Joaquina attempts to bleed, but she is blocked by Chandler. Combat ensues. Joaquina reveals a Zip Gun and summons (what else?) Carrion Crows. She decides to keep it close. Joaquina strikes with a hand strike and her trusty Crows. Chandler hits back for one. Chandler burns the Leather Jacket to prevent the Carrion Crows damage, but he goes to torpor anyway--Chandler only had one blood at this point--because Dan forgot that Joaquina's hand strikes did two damage now because of the Week of Nightmares. Sarisha bleeds, but she is blocked by Anastasia Grey. Another combat ensues much like the previous one, and Anastasia Grey also ends up in torpor. Then, as Konstantin takes one last action to Deprive the Garou of all his Senses, time runs out and the game ends. Brad Ward and his Masochistic Ravnos take Baltimore. Brad's winning decklist is below: Title, Masochistic Ravnos 4 Joquina Aamaya 6 ANI CHI FOR 3 Kostantin 9 ANI cel CHI dom FOR 3 Sarisha 6 ANI chi dom FOR 2 Vaclav 6 ANI CHI for pot Library: (90 cards) Master (12 cards) 1 Rumor Mill Tabloid Newspaper 2 Dreams of the Sphinx 1 Giants Blood 2 Mob Connections 1 Park Hunting Ground 2 Powerbase: Montreal 2 Rack, The 1 Week of Nightmares Minion (74 cards) (30) 2 Ablative Skin 8 Freak Drive 6 Hidden Strength 2 Kiss of Ra, The 6 Masochism 6 Unflinching Persistence (23) 2 Tier of souls 2 Army of Rats 8 Carrion Crows 8 Cats Guidance 2 Raven Spy 1 Murder of Crows (11) 5 Fata Morgana 4 Mass Reality 1 Sensory Deprivation 1 Draba (14) 4 Forced Awakening 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness 6 Zip Gun

>Note: This tournament report is VERY LONG, as it provides complete >coverage of the Final Round. I took great pains to write down >*everything* that happened in the final, and I've included some of my >own comments as well. I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I >enjoyed writing it. Hmmm....the game sounded *dreadfully* ugly. I really liked the tournament report and enjoyed reading it but the final seemed to be so full of dissention. Is it always like that in Las Vegas, or maybe just because you recorded everything so meticulously? >6. Keith M. Thompson (Las Vegas; ALLIES/TREMERE ANTI-TRIBU) -- 0 >WINS, 0 VP, 74 TP >7. Brian Iverson (Elko; TREMERE) -- 0 WINS, 0 VP, 64 TP How could you have passed on entering finals??? The Tremere Antitribu needed you! Still, 6th place is good. And 7th place Tremere is good too I guess. They seem to be consistently around there. >Combat ensues. Roman shows Claws of the Dead. >Chandler Dodges. BTW: What's up with all the agg modifiers *before* having it dodged? Unless he really wanted to cycle, he should have just struck with hands and not wasted the Claws if the strike was dodged. >Mike then turns his attention on his prey and bleeds >with Muriel. Nit-pick: It's Mariel. Muriel is a !Malk with extra strength. Just got annoyed at seeing all of the Muriel mentions! =P >icki >Van Dempsey then takes the Leather Jacket and Flak Jacket from the >Vagabond Mystic. (An argument broke out about whether Ricki would >untap at the end of the turn after taking the Leather Jacket from the >Vagabond Mystic. I said no, but Brad wanted to argue the point. I >emphatically told him my answer was "No, Ricki does not untap." >However, I agreed to refer the issue to L. Scott Johnson for future >clarification. I also told Brad to stop arguing with me. Any future >dissent of such a volatile nature would be grounds for a warning or >worse!) He would untap. I have to admit that I'd be pretty annoyed if the judge ruled against this since it would mean another bleed for one on my prey. But exactly how "volatile" was he? >Mike untaps and Muriel has an interesting untap phase. >Muriel has one blood on her, so Mike chooses to resolve the Society of >Leopold first. Then Mike resolves the Vampiric Disease. (Muriel >loses nothing to Vampiric Disease since she has no blood to lose in >the first place.) Then, Mike chooses to use the Asylum HG to give >Muriel one blood. So I take it she's no longer Diseased after this? > (Sadly, another >argument broke out at this point regarding the "timing" of various >cards like Vampiric Disease. Brad and Daniel were both adamant that >their interpretation was the correct one (of course), and I knew we >were in trouble when they started reaching for their "little" >rulebooks. However, I KNOW all affects during an >untap/master/influence/discard/end phase, even Palacial Estate, >despite its wording that it occur "first" in the Master Phase, can be >ordered in whatever order the active Methuselah decides. I overruled >Brad and Dan and gave Brad a stern warning not to argue with the Judge >anymore!) You were right. You can order them as you want. (Maybe people got confused because in Magic, you can't use something during the upkeep phase before you paid it's upkeep?) >Mike then has Cornelius Octavio bleed Steve with Govern the >Unaligned (a bleed of 5). Steve is down to 6 pool, so he has to try >to stop it. Hadrian Garrick tries to block. Cornelius then gets +1 >stealth from Swallowed by the Night, and he gets through . . . EXCEPT >I look more carefully at Cornelius and realize that he doesn't have >dominate! (which I should have caught last round!) We back up the >action, replace cards to the Library, and start over. (I also give >Mike two verbal warnings for misrepresentation and revealing cards.) Ouch! I would've been pretty pissed about last turn's bleed for 4 at +1 stealth. Was that all you could do? I don't suppose you could have retro'ed some of the lost pool back? What should happen in such a situation? Personally, I don't think just two warnings would be enough for last turn's mistake. >Mike untaps and Muriel has >another interesting untap phase. Mike resolves Vampiric Disease first >since Muriel is out of blood at this point. (She had to pay one blood >for the Govern the Unaligned bleed last turn.) Not that it would've mattered, but wouldn't the Disease have went away *last turn*? >The "Famous" Zoe, being fresh out of blood, has to >hunt. Mike's prey Brad declines to block. Mike's predator Dan >declines to block. (Zoe hunts at 0 stealth, remember.) Once again, this is the murky issue of: who's job it is to remember that Zoe hunts at -1 stealth. Did he say that Zoe was hunting at 0-stealth, or just that Zoe was hunting? Similarly, I take it that if I had bled with Muaziz and my prey had waked (w/o intercept) because he forgot about Muaziz's stealth, you wouldn't have let him take back the wake, right? Just double-checking. >Joaquina strikes with a >hand strike and her trusty Crows. Chandler hits back for one. >Chandler burns the Leather Jacket to prevent the Carrion Crows damage, >but he goes to torpor anyway--Chandler only had one blood at this >point--because Dan forgot that Joaquina's hand strikes did two damage >now because of the Week of Nightmares. Actually, Leather Jacket can only prevent strike damage, not Crow (environmental) damage. BTW: I'm surprised that no one ever got around to doing any of the (D) actions that all of Brad's stuff had. Army of Rats (burnable), Mob Connections (burnable), The Rack (stealable), and Powerbase: Montreal (stealable). IMHO, it would have been well worth the effort to spend a turn taking out all of these resources... Once again thanks for the report! Halcyan 2

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20020301213345...@mb-ba.aol.com>... > Hmmm....the game sounded *dreadfully* ugly. I really liked the tournament > report and enjoyed reading it but the final seemed to be so full of dissention. > Is it always like that in Las Vegas, or maybe just because you recorded > everything so meticulously? Dissention is part of life in Las Vegas. Brad Ward, Prince of North Las Vegas, and I (Keith M. Thompson, Prince of Las Vegas) do not see eye to eye on much of anything. In the words of Kurt Vonnegut, "So it goes . . ." > >6. Keith M. Thompson (Las Vegas; ALLIES/TREMERE ANTI-TRIBU) -- 0 > >WINS, 0 VP, 74 TP > >7. Brian Iverson (Elko; TREMERE) -- 0 WINS, 0 VP, 64 TP > > How could you have passed on entering finals??? The Tremere Antitribu needed > you! Still, 6th place is good. And 7th place Tremere is good too I guess. They > seem to be consistently around there. I announced up front before we started the tournament that I would not participate in the Final Round if I were to qualify. I didn't even plan to play in the Storyline Tournament, but I only had (*crap*) 7 players, so I decided to play to make it a nice, table-balanced 8-player tournament. My deck was pretty crappy, but I had fun playing it! (I tried playing it without any vampires (i.e. using Jake Washington (Hunter) to kick things off), and in my first game I managed to *successfully* play an entire hour before I influenced up my first vampire!) > >Combat ensues. Roman shows Claws of the Dead. > >Chandler Dodges. > > BTW: What's up with all the agg modifiers *before* having it dodged? Unless he > really wanted to cycle, he should have just struck with hands and not wasted > the Claws if the strike was dodged. Isn't it obvious? This was a Storyline Tournament, and five of the eight players were effectively "new" players. The "up front Claws" were played just that way by, you guessed it, a new player. > >Mike then turns his attention on his prey and bleeds > >with Muriel. > > Nit-pick: It's Mariel. Muriel is a !Malk with extra strength. Just got annoyed > at seeing all of the Muriel mentions! =P Sorry. I should have confirmed the spelling. I'm usually quite anal about things like that, but I missed this one. :-) Thanks for pointing it out, Halcyon 2. > >Ricki > >Van Dempsey then takes the Leather Jacket and Flak Jacket from the > >Vagabond Mystic. (An argument broke out about whether Ricki would > >untap at the end of the turn after taking the Leather Jacket from the > >Vagabond Mystic. I said no, but Brad wanted to argue the point. I > >emphatically told him my answer was "No, Ricki does not untap." > >However, I agreed to refer the issue to L. Scott Johnson for future > >clarification. I also told Brad to stop arguing with me. Any future > >dissent of such a volatile nature would be grounds for a warning or > >worse!) > > He would untap. I have to admit that I'd be pretty annoyed if the judge ruled > against this since it would mean another bleed for one on my prey. But exactly > how "volatile" was he? I must admit, I wasn't aware of this "untap effect" by taking a Leather Jacket from another minion. Still, I was the judge for the Finals, and although I made a mistake here, I know I'm not the only judge who's ever made a mistake! Such is life. Brad was "volatile" in the sense that he clearly raised his voice and tried to belittle me in front of all concerned. He didn't cuss, but he did hold the game up for two or three minutes, and the ruling in question didn't even (directly) affect his minions or his board position. > >Mike untaps and Muriel has an interesting untap phase. > >Muriel has one blood on her, so Mike chooses to resolve the Society of > >Leopold first. Then Mike resolves the Vampiric Disease. (Muriel > >loses nothing to Vampiric Disease since she has no blood to lose in > >the first place.) Then, Mike chooses to use the Asylum HG to give > >Muriel one blood. > > So I take it she's no longer Diseased after this? Yes, you are correct. I believe I lost track of this fact during this round. However, whether or not she lost the Disease at this point had absolutely no bearing on this or any future round (in hindsight, of course). I'm sure you'll agree with me, though, that there were a lot of things to keep track of in this game, and with four "new" players in the finals, I had to do a lot of "policing". (Like, no Daniel you can't use your Eco-Terrorists after you discard, etc.) > > (Sadly, another > >argument broke out at this point regarding the "timing" of various > >cards like Vampiric Disease. Brad and Daniel were both adamant that > >their interpretation was the correct one (of course), and I knew we > >were in trouble when they started reaching for their "little" > >rulebooks. However, I KNOW all affects during an > >untap/master/influence/discard/end phase, even Palacial Estate, > >despite its wording that it occur "first" in the Master Phase, can be > >ordered in whatever order the active Methuselah decides. I overruled > >Brad and Dan and gave Brad a stern warning not to argue with the Judge > >anymore!) > > You were right. You can order them as you want. (Maybe people got confused > because in Magic, you can't use something during the upkeep phase before you > paid it's upkeep?) Thank you. I knew I was right about this situation. However, even in Magic you can use something *before* paying upkeep. (Like using a Masticore to kill a Llanowar Elf, and then letting the Masticore die by not discarding a card to pay its upkeep. In Magic, it's all about THE STACK!) As you can probably infer, I play A LOT of Magic as well. > >Mike then has Cornelius Octavio bleed Steve with Govern the > >Unaligned (a bleed of 5). Steve is down to 6 pool, so he has to try > >to stop it. Hadrian Garrick tries to block. Cornelius then gets +1 > >stealth from Swallowed by the Night, and he gets through . . . EXCEPT > >I look more carefully at Cornelius and realize that he doesn't have > >dominate! (which I should have caught last round!) We back up the > >action, replace cards to the Library, and start over. (I also give > >Mike two verbal warnings for misrepresentation and revealing cards.) > > Ouch! I would've been pretty pissed about last turn's bleed for 4 at +1 > stealth. Was that all you could do? I don't suppose you could have retro'ed > some of the lost pool back? What should happen in such a situation? > Personally, I don't think just two warnings would be enough for last turn's > mistake. Well . . . considering Cornelius Octavio bleeds a Follower of Set prey for 3 anyway, and considering he has superior Obfuscate, I think he would have bled for 3 anyway (maybe more). In any event, an ENTIRE ROUND had gone by, so it was truly too late to do anything about the mistake the round before (i.e. too many things had happened to "go back"). What does one (judge) do in this situation? Nothing. Except, of course, realize the error and make DAMN SURE it never happens again! It's too late to "go back" and try to rectify the situation--too many subsequent decisions have been made (by various players) based on the successful resolution of an "illegal" but "accepted" action. Ultimately, it is the players themselves who are responsible for "catching" such "mistakes"; the judge is there primarily to resolve disputes and settle rules questions. I did not slap Mike with anything harsher than verbal warnings because in my opinion, he was not deliberately trying to cheat by pulling off this "illegal" action. He was a "new" player, who assumed that Cornelius had dominate. (Not a totally misguided, albeit incorrect, assumption.) Considering last round when Cornelius had successfully "pulled off" a Dominate Kine bleed, it would stand to reason that a player like Mike would assume that Cornelius had dominate. It was Mike's fault for misrepresenting Cornelius's disciplines (without forethought or malice, in my opinion), it was Steve Munson's (also a "new" player) fault for not noticing the misrepresentation, and it was my fault as the Judge for not spotting the misrepresentation. Whoops! There it is. > >Mike untaps and Muriel has > >another interesting untap phase. Mike resolves Vampiric Disease first > >since Muriel is out of blood at this point. (She had to pay one blood > >for the Govern the Unaligned bleed last turn.) > > Not that it would've mattered, but wouldn't the Disease have went away *last > turn*? Yes, it should have. I lost track of this (as I've stated previously). > >The "Famous" Zoe, being fresh out of blood, has to > >hunt. Mike's prey Brad declines to block. Mike's predator Dan > >declines to block. (Zoe hunts at 0 stealth, remember.) > > Once again, this is the murky issue of: who's job it is to remember that Zoe > hunts at -1 stealth. Did he say that Zoe was hunting at 0-stealth, or just that > Zoe was hunting? Similarly, I take it that if I had bled with Muaziz and my > prey had waked (w/o intercept) because he forgot about Muaziz's stealth, you > wouldn't have let him take back the wake, right? Just double-checking. Correction: Zoe hunts at 0 stealth, or more properly, Zoe does not get the usual +1 stealth for hunting. Zoe does not hunt at -1 stealth, which is a different thing entirely. Strictly speaking, a player doesn't have to say anything more than "Zoe hunts." It falls to the players to remember that she hunts at 0 stealth. However, I believe it was even announced that Zoe was hunting at 0 stealth. In your example with Muaziz, I would NEVER allow that player to return the Wake to his hand. In the situation with Zoe's hunt, Daniel argued that he played his Wake too late. Since Mike had already resolved Zoe's hunt and was in the process of moving on to his next minion, I accepted Daniel's argument, warned him for revealing a card from his hand, and let him put his Wake back in his hand. Now, why Mike didn't act on that information (that Daniel had a Wake) and restrain the Muddled Vampire Hunter from attacking Chandler is beyond me. (Anastasia Grey used the Wake, blocked the Hunter, burned a Leather Jacket to prevent the Hunter's hand strike, and then killed the Hunter.) > >Joaquina strikes with a > >hand strike and her trusty Crows. Chandler hits back for one. > >Chandler burns the Leather Jacket to prevent the Carrion Crows damage, > >but he goes to torpor anyway--Chandler only had one blood at this > >point--because Dan forgot that Joaquina's hand strikes did two damage > >now because of the Week of Nightmares. > > Actually, Leather Jacket can only prevent strike damage, not Crow > (environmental) damage. I stand corrected. However, it was also getting late in the tournament (and I was getting tired), so I may have recorded a few things incorrectly. (Two hour games can do that to a person!) > BTW: I'm surprised that no one ever got around to doing any of the (D) actions > that all of Brad's stuff had. Army of Rats (burnable), Mob Connections > (burnable), The Rack (stealable), and Powerbase: Montreal (stealable). IMHO, it > would have been well worth the effort to spend a turn taking out all of these > resources... I repeat, there were four "new" players in the final, and the one experienced player with all these "toys" was Brad Ward himself. Believe me, if I were in the final, I would have gone after all of these things! > Once again thanks for the report! You're welcome! I'm glad SOMEBODY read it! [ quoted text not captured ]

Keith Thompson skrev i meddelandet <946af913.0203...@posting.google.com>... >halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20020301213345...@mb-ba.aol.com>... > [ quoted text not captured ] Actually, this is illegal play, players were right. If a vampire is affected by Vampiric Disease and Society of Leopold, the Disease resolves first, as that happens when the vampire untaps, which happens first in the untapphase. What should have happen is: Mariel untaps, loses a blood, get's one from HG, then burns one from Leopold (or resolve Leopold before HG if the player want's Mariel burned). Then Mariel hunts, gets no blood as she's diseased... -- /Henrik Isaksson Prins av Halmstad

I just wanted to publicly thank Keith for running a great storyline tournament! Myself and three others from Elko traveled the 450 miles to Las Vegas to participate. It was the first VTES tournament any of us had ever been too. I have played VTES for several years, but the other three have only played for a couple of months. I was very proud of Mike who managed to take 3rd place! John was just as happy to be 5th! They even took pictures of the scribbled 3rd and 5th place pieces of paper which Keith had with their prize packages. Kind of like ribbons from a State Fair! haha. Mike had a S&B Malk deck, John was playing a Gangrel toolbox, and Norm had the Assamite preconstructed deck. I admit, I was a little disappointed in how my Tremere/Gargoyle faired in the tourney. It was a S&B deck with the Gargoyles for defense and blocked bleeds. Unfortunately, the only Gargoyle to show up was Fidus, and he came up in all three rounds! Poor ole Fidus only had normal Visceratika so he could only hold off my predator for so long instead of taking them out. AND, it didn't help that I had Brad as my predator twice in a row. I nearly had two VP in both of those rounds. I had John's Gangrel all torporized and nearly bled out the 1st round but then Brad started getting his predator's gangrel out of torpor just as his Week of Nightmares took effect. Keith, my predator, was finished off and it didn't take long for little ole Fidus and the Tremere to be riddled with 3 damage Mass Realitied zipguns and increased bleeds. Again, in the 2nd round I nearly had the Followers of Set bled to zero when Brad started giving his grandprey intercept to block the stealthy Tremere. Zipguns, Mass Reality, and Week of Nightmares once again prevailed. The third round was a little different with the Renegade Garou deck as my predator. My prey, the Malks, just bounced my bleeds around as my perfect clarities never appeared. The Malks quickly took out the Assamites who were already devastated by the war with the Garous. Then the Garous, three of them by this time, torporized all the Malks. Before I could bleed out the bloated Malks though, the Garous torporized Fidus and my last Tremere. All in all it was a good learning experience for the four of us. I only forgot to take my 1 blood for having the Edge once! Boy, talk about getting your hand slapped for forgetting! Keith helped me understand how the scoring goes so that I can do it correctly when we start having our own tournaments in Elko. Everyone got some more cards for their collections, thank you Keith, Steve, and Brad for the great trades. Needless to say, I didn't leave Keith with anymore unopened original Sabbat boosters! But he was most ecstatic at getting a Nephandus Mage from the last pack we opened!! hahaha All the guys, and gal, back in Elko enjoyed hearing how we fared in Las Vegas. Keith even sent some promos along with me to pass out to the them. Everyone is excited about having our first tournament in Elko, hopefully in the next couple of months. My first WW supported demo is this Saturday, and it sounds like even more new players will be showing up. Looks like VTES has been established as a thriving community in Elko. I look forward to attending more tourneys elsewhere, and I hope that some of you could bless us with your Presence, in Elko, Nevada, in the days to come. Brian Iverson Prince of Elko -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

> >Thank you. I knew I was right about this situation. However, even in_______ > >Magic you can use something *before* paying upkeep. (Like using a___________ > >Masticore to kill a Llanowar Elf, and then letting the Masticore die_________ > >by not discarding a card to pay its upkeep. In Magic, it's all about________ > >THE STACK!) As you can probably infer, I play A LOT of Magic as well._______ > >_____________________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________________ > Actually, this is illegal play, players were right. If a vampire is affected__ > by Vampiric Disease and Society of Leopold, the Disease resolves first, as____ > that happens when the vampire untaps, which happens first in the untapphase.__ > ______________________________________________________________________________ > What should have happen is: Mariel untaps, loses a blood, get's one from HG,__ > then burns one from Leopold (or resolve Leopold before HG if the player_______ > want's Mariel burned). Then Mariel hunts, gets no blood as she's diseased...__ I dissented when Keith made the two bad calls in the final. I was a seconday Judge after all since we used the multi-judge system so keith could play. Even though I pointed out in the rulebook that an equip action takes a card from your hand or from another minion. I was only trying to defend the newer players since the call didn't do anything for my situation in the game. The Bad call where keith let Mariel untap without losing a blood to Vampiric Disease astounded me. Even though I explained how the untap phase worked (first untap, then order as you wish) he persisted that his calls are final. I didn't make a big stink about it, just took enough time to show keith the rulebook, errata or clarification on his bad call. I said "bad call keith, here's the rules right here in the rule book". I did say "bad call" a few more times during play but nothing that really slowed down the game. I was kind of dissapointed that keith would'nt even correct the call when It was pointed out to him by us showing him the rule book or errata. I even had to deal with allies stopping Carrion Crows with memories of mortality when it was pointed out in writing that Carrion Crows are treated as retainer based damage. Ah well, I still had fun at the tourney and helped Ravnos rack up their number of tourney wins! -Brad Ward Prince of North Las Vegas

In message <e5b93701.02030...@posting.google.com>, Brad Ward <wa...@nevada.edu> writes: >I even had to deal with allies stopping Carrion Crows with >memories of mortality when it was pointed out in writing that Carrion >Crows are treated as retainer based damage. Pedantry: Environmental damage. -- James Coupe Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks, PGP 0x5D623D5D And the rich folks hate the poor folks. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 All of my folks hate all of your folks, 13D7E668C3695D623D5D It's American as apple pie.

> I was kind of dissapointed that keith would'nt even correct the call > when It was pointed out to him by us showing him the rule book or > errata. I even had to deal with allies stopping Carrion Crows with > memories of mortality when it was pointed out in writing that Carrion > Crows are treated as retainer based damage. > It is actually treated as environmental damage not retainer damage. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

>> >Thank you. I knew I was right about this situation. However, even >in_______ > > >Magic you can use something *before* paying upkeep. (Like using >a___________ > > >Masticore to kill a Llanowar Elf, and then letting the Masticore >die_________ > > >by not discarding a card to pay its upkeep. In Magic, it's all >about________ > > >THE STACK!) As you can probably infer, I play A LOT of Magic as >well._______ Really? I guess they must have changed the rules a while back then. I'm pretty sure that for a while, you couldn't use something during the upkeep phase before paying for the upkeep. (But then again, that was also in the days when Artifacts were only active while untapped...). >I dissented when Keith made the two bad calls in the final. I was a >seconday Judge after all since we used the multi-judge system so keith >could play. Even though I pointed out in the rulebook that an equip >action takes a card from your hand or from another minion. I was only >trying to defend the newer players since the call didn't do anything >for my situation in the game. As I said earlier, I agree with you here. >The Bad call where keith let Mariel >untap without losing a blood to Vampiric Disease astounded me. Even >though I explained how the untap phase worked (first untap, then order >as you wish) he persisted that his calls are final. I didn't make a >big stink about it, just took enough time to show keith the rulebook, >errata or clarification on his bad call. I said "bad call keith, >here's the rules right here in the rule book". I did say "bad call" a >few more times during play but nothing that really slowed down the >game. >I was kind of dissapointed that keith would'nt even correct the call >when It was pointed out to him by us showing him the rule book or >errata. Oops! I take back what I said earlier. It's been a while since I've seen a Vampiric Disease (haven't played my weenie THA Cryptic Mission deck in ages!) so I forgot the exact wording. You're right Brad. Mariel loses the blood to the Disease from untapping. Then she could get the HG blood and then burn it for the Society. For those interested, here's an old ruling: From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) Subject: Re: Disease counter + society of leopold Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad View: Complete Thread (6 articles) | Original Format Date: 2000-11-09 11:05:23 PST /Arnaud Clavel wrote: > > What happens to a diseased vampire with 1 blood under society of leopold > ? Assuming you mean Vampiric Disease and not Disease, the vampire victim has to do two things during the untap phase: 1) Untap (and burn a blood for being infected "when [he] untaps") This must be done first. [4] 2) Burn a blood or be burned "during the untap phase" for Leopold. > Can his controller choose the order of effects or does he have to deal > with his counter first (because the untap phase starts by untapping the > minions) then burn the vampire (society) because he has no blood left > ? The latter. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ >I even had to deal with allies stopping Carrion Crows with >memories of mortality when it was pointed out in writing that Carrion >Crows are treated as retainer based damage. I'd be annoyed by this as well. But then again, as the organizer already explained, the problem was aggravated since most of the players were newbies. Even though you were hurt by a few bad calls Brad, you really did benefit from their inexperience IMHO. For example, as I noted earlier, no one bothered to do any of the (D) actions on your various cards (Army of Rats, Mob Connections, PB: Montreal, The Rack) and I'm guessing that Mariel's controller didn't really know or understand the (D) action for Society of Leopold. >Ah well, I still had fun at the tourney and helped Ravnos rack up >their number of tourney wins! Evil, evil Ravnos! Though I suppose I'd rather see the gypsy thieves win than the annoying, whiny little Lasombra!!!!! (Oh look, I can create shadows! Aren't I so cool???) =P Halcyan 2

wa...@nevada.edu (Brad Ward) wrote in message > > I dissented when Keith made the two bad calls in the final. I was a > seconday Judge after all since we used the multi-judge system so keith > could play. Even though I pointed out in the rulebook that an equip > action takes a card from your hand or from another minion. I was only > trying to defend the newer players since the call didn't do anything > for my situation in the game. I only made ONE bad call in the final THAT YOU PROTESTED! (You didn't even mention the entire Cornelius Octavio using dominate screw-up--again, my fault! How "specific" you are in your accusations!) The only bad call I made was the action involving Ricki's taking of a Leather Jacket (and Flak Jacket). You're right; Ricki should have untapped at the end of the turn due to the text on Leather Jacket. MY MISTAKE. The other "so-called" bad call is absolutely wrong. Read on, poor illiterate student . . . > The Bad call where keith let Mariel > untap without losing a blood to Vampiric Disease astounded me. Even > though I explained how the untap phase worked (first untap, then order > as you wish) he persisted that his calls are final. I didn't make a > big stink about it, just took enough time to show keith the rulebook, > errata or clarification on his bad call. I said "bad call keith, > here's the rules right here in the rule book". I did say "bad call" a > few more times during play but nothing that really slowed down the > game. > I was kind of dissapointed that keith would'nt even correct the call > when It was pointed out to him by us showing him the rule book or > errata. Directly from L. Scott himself in a private e-mail communication (so I need not say anything further): ME: Re: Vampiric Disease. Can its effects be "ordered" in a stack of untap effects? Or must it resolve "first" as the vampire inflicted with Vampiric Disease untaps (since the untapping of all minions and all other cards that are allowed to untap MUST be untapped first before anything else can occur)? LSJ: Untapping cannot be ordered - it happens first. Other effects that happen when the vampire untaps (Charnas, VD, etc.) happen at that time (but can be ordered amongst themselves). There you have it! Vampiric Disease is just one of many cards with untap phase effects that can be "ordered" in any way a player chooses (after untapping all cards in play allowed to be untapped, of course). For further clarification of "ordering effects" I present the following (same private e-mail communication): ME: Re: Palacial Estate. Am I correct in my assessment of Palacial Estate that although the P.E. card says it occurs "at the beginning of each of your Master Phases", it, too, can still be "ordered" in a stack of Master Phase effects (i.e. it doesn't *have* to go first)? Follow-up Question: Can a vampire ever get more than one blood from a P.E. in one turn? Assuming you have Anson or The Parthenon or something similar, do these grant you additional Master Phases or additional Master Phase Actions? Or is there a distinction? LSJ: Yes. No. MPAs. There is a distinction. > I even had to deal with allies stopping Carrion Crows with > memories of mortality when it was pointed out in writing that Carrion > Crows are treated as retainer based damage. Yes, you did. I had forgotten how cards like Carrion Crows worked with respect to Memories of Mortality. However, your argument was ultimately accepted (and correct). I didn't argue with you about this! For the record, there is no such thing as "retainer-based damage". Damage originating from retainers is considered "environmental", just like Weather Control damage, "side-effect damage" from Zip Guns and Burst of Sunlight, "reflected" damage from King of the Mountain and Blood of Acid, and so on. Or, in short, damage is either "inflicted" by the minion itself (ally or vampire) or "caused" by an "environmental" source. That's it. There are only two categories of damage origination. > Ah well, I still had fun at the tourney and helped Ravnos rack up > their number of tourney wins! Kudos! [ quoted text not captured ]

"Prince of Elko" <iverso...@citlink.net> wrote in message news:<dd77c0ba214cc2d57fb...@mygate.mailgate.org>... > I just wanted to publicly thank Keith for running a great storyline > tournament! Thank you. [snip lots of stuff] > AND, it didn't help that I had Brad as my predator > twice in a row. Correction: Brad was your *immediate* predator only in round 2. Brad *became* your predator in round 1 after he rolled through me! [snip other stuff] > The Malks quickly took out the > Assamites who were already devastated by the war with the Garous. Then > the Garous, three of them by this time, torporized all the Malks. Before > I could bleed out the bloated Malks though, the Garous torporized Fidus > and my last Tremere. It was a very violent and bloody tournament, indeed! [snip snip] > But he was most ecstatic at getting a Nephandus Mage > from the last pack we opened!! hahaha YESSSS!!! I now own 4 of the little boogers! > All the guys, and gal, back in Elko enjoyed hearing how we fared in Las > Vegas. Keith even sent some promos along with me to pass out to the > them. Everyone is excited about having our first tournament in Elko, > hopefully in the next couple of months. My first WW supported demo is > this Saturday, and it sounds like even more new players will be showing > up. Looks like VTES has been established as a thriving community in > Elko. I look forward to attending more tourneys elsewhere, and I hope > that some of you could bless us with your Presence, in Elko, Nevada, in > the days to come. Brian, I'm glad everyone had such a good time, and I hope everyone enjoys their Dan Murdocks! I look forward to trekking up to Elko in the near future. (I looked Elko up on a map of Nevada today, and it seems about as far from Las Vegas as Winnemucca. Believe it or not, I've BEEN to Winnemucca. Elko shouldn't be so bad!) [ quoted text not captured ]

>Directly from L. Scott himself in a private e-mail communication (so I >need not say anything further): > >ME: Re: Vampiric Disease. Can its effects be "ordered" in a stack of >untap effects? Or must it resolve "first" as the vampire inflicted >with Vampiric Disease untaps (since the untapping of all minions and >all other cards that are allowed to untap MUST be untapped first >before anything else can occur)? > >LSJ: Untapping cannot be ordered - it happens first. Other effects >that happen when the vampire untaps (Charnas, VD, etc.) happen at that >time (but can be ordered amongst themselves). This seems to imply that Vampiric Disease still has to happen before Society of Leopold, though Vampiric Disease can be ordered as you choose with say, Charnas or the Treatment. >There you have it! Vampiric Disease is just one of many cards with >untap phase effects that can be "ordered" in any way a player chooses >(after untapping all cards in play allowed to be untapped, of course). > For further clarification of "ordering effects" I present the >following (same private e-mail communication): But LSJ seems to say that you still have to finish all of the effects that occur when things untap before you move on. Or at least, in combination with the other ruling I posted earlier, it seems to indicate so. Consider an analagous situation with action modifiers that need to be played when the action is announced: I declare/play an action (I untap) I can play action modifiers that are played when the action is announced such as Seduction, Perfect Clarity, Walk of Caine (inf), Grandest Trick. However, I can order these however I want (Perfect Clarity before Grandest Trick). (I can order effects that occur when I untap as I want, such as Charnas, Treatment, and Vampiric Disease) I can play other action modifiers such as Conditioning, Daring the Dawn, The Missing Voice, etc. I can order these effects as I choose. (Other effects that occur "during the untap phase" happen, though I can order these as I want). Or...I could be missing the big picture... =) Halcyan 2

In message <20020305030224...@mb-cu.aol.com>, Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> writes: >>LSJ: Untapping cannot be ordered - it happens first. Other effects >>that happen when the vampire untaps (Charnas, VD, etc.) happen at that >>time (but can be ordered amongst themselves). > > >This seems to imply that Vampiric Disease still has to happen before Society of >Leopold, though Vampiric Disease can be ordered as you choose with say, Charnas >or the Treatment. It does. If something happens as a vampire untaps, it happens as they untap - tying itself to that event. Cards which say "At the start of the untap phase" are meaningless, since nothing can precede untapping vampires (though a number of things can happen simultaneously with it). Other untap phase effects can then be ordered however you desire. [ quoted text not captured ]

<SNIP> > ME: Re: Vampiric Disease. Can its effects be "ordered" in a stack of > untap effects? Or must it resolve "first" as the vampire inflicted > with Vampiric Disease untaps (since the untapping of all minions and > all other cards that are allowed to untap MUST be untapped first > before anything else can occur)? > > LSJ: Untapping cannot be ordered - it happens first. Other effects > that happen when the vampire untaps (Charnas, VD, etc.) happen at that > time (but can be ordered amongst themselves). > > There you have it! Vampiric Disease is just one of many cards with > untap phase effects that can be "ordered" in any way a player chooses > (after untapping all cards in play allowed to be untapped, of course). > For further clarification of "ordering effects" I present the > following (same private e-mail communication): > > ME: Re: Palacial Estate. Am I correct in my assessment of Palacial > Estate that although the P.E. card says it occurs "at the beginning of > each of your Master Phases", it, too, can still be "ordered" in a > stack of Master Phase effects (i.e. it doesn't *have* to go first)? > Follow-up Question: Can a vampire ever get more than one blood from a > P.E. in one turn? Assuming you have Anson or The Parthenon or > something similar, do these grant you additional Master Phases or > additional Master Phase Actions? Or is there a distinction? > > LSJ: Yes. No. MPAs. There is a distinction. <SNIP> > Keith M. Thompson > Prince of Las Vegas Look, Prince or not, you quite clearly don't understand what's what here. Untap phase - the VERY FIRST THING you MUST (!) do in the untap phase is UNTAP!!! Therefore, VD takes effect before any 'during the untap phase' effects - as does Charnas the Imp. What you can decide is which order these 'when you untap' effects happen. I.E. you could decide to take the 1 damage from Charnas AND THEN burn the one blood for the VD. After this, all other 'untap phase' effects will have to be resolved (in whatever order the acting player likes). And as a side note, environmental damage cannot be prevented with 'prevent damage from a strike' card (Leather Jacket, Superior Mettle etc.) and if you match the little symbols on the cards with the little symbols on the vampires, this shows what you can and can't use. No wonder there was a lot of arguments/warnings. And for the record, I think it was a bad call too! :)

Halcyan 2 wrote: > >ME: Re: Vampiric Disease. Can its effects be "ordered" in a stack of > >untap effects? Or must it resolve "first" as the vampire inflicted > >with Vampiric Disease untaps (since the untapping of all minions and > >all other cards that are allowed to untap MUST be untapped first > >before anything else can occur)? > > > >LSJ: Untapping cannot be ordered - it happens first. Other effects > >that happen when the vampire untaps (Charnas, VD, etc.) happen at that > >time (but can be ordered amongst themselves). > > This seems to imply that Vampiric Disease still has to happen before Society of > Leopold, though Vampiric Disease can be ordered as you choose with say, Charnas > or the Treatment. Correct. > >There you have it! Vampiric Disease is just one of many cards with > >untap phase effects that can be "ordered" in any way a player chooses > >(after untapping all cards in play allowed to be untapped, of course). > > For further clarification of "ordering effects" I present the > >following (same private e-mail communication): > > But LSJ seems to say that you still have to finish all of the effects that > occur when things untap before you move on. Or at least, in combination with > the other ruling I posted earlier, it seems to indicate so. Right. Things that happen when the vampire untaps occur first in the untap phase (which is when the vampire untaps). They also occur when the vampire untaps at other times (via Second Tradition, Derange, or Metro Underground, for example). > Consider an analagous situation with action modifiers that need to be played > when the action is announced: > > I declare/play an action > (I untap) > > I can play action modifiers that are played when the action is announced such > as Seduction, Perfect Clarity, Walk of Caine (inf), Grandest Trick. However, I > can order these however I want (Perfect Clarity before Grandest Trick). > (I can order effects that occur when I untap as I want, such as Charnas, > Treatment, and Vampiric Disease) > > I can play other action modifiers such as Conditioning, Daring the Dawn, The > Missing Voice, etc. I can order these effects as I choose. > (Other effects that occur "during the untap phase" happen, though I can order > these as I want). Correct. [ quoted text not captured ]

getd...@earthlink.net (Keith Thompson) wrote in message news:<946af913.02030...@posting.google.com>... > I only made ONE bad call in the final THAT YOU PROTESTED! (You didn't________ > even mention the entire Cornelius Octavio using dominate______________________ > screw-up--again, my fault! How "specific" you are in your____________________ > accusations!) Keith, I protested the two bad calls you made. The first was you not letting Ricki untap after equiping a leather jacket. I felt bad about this one becuase I suggested it to the newbie because it would leave him with an armored defender. The second was clearly when you let Murial untap without losing a blood to Vampiric Disease then later in the untap phase reorder things that are supposed to happen when you untap with things that happen during the untap phase. Allowing Cornelius Octavio to use dominate was not a call on your part, infact your the one that discovered he couldn't use Dominate. that was a good call, not a bad call. I was too far away to see his skills and just assumed he had at least dom. > The other "so-called" bad call is_____________________________________________ > absolutely wrong. Read on, poor illiterate student Um, ok I guess your just going to feel even more foolish when you finally realize your still wrong about the untap timing and effects. You asked LSJ a question that was not specific to what happened in game. He answered your question correctly and you misinterpreted his answer. I wouldn't call you illiterate for that mistake, you are just not well versed in thinking logically. > Directly from L. Scott himself in a private e-mail communication (so I________ > need not say anything further):_______________________________________________ Just read the rest of this thread on others citing LSJ's ruling specifically on this case (Vampiric Disease and Society of Leopold together). Hopfully you will see the error of you ways. > > I even had to deal with allies stopping Carrion Crows with > > memories of mortality when it was pointed out in writing that Carrion_______ > > Crows are treated as retainer based damage._________________________________ > Yes, you did. I had forgotten how cards like Carrion Crows worked > with respect to Memories of Mortality. However, your argument was > this! For the record, there is no such thing as "retainer-based_ > damage". Damage originating from retainers is considered > "environmental", just like Weather Control damage, "side-effect____________ > damage" from Zip Guns and Burst of Sunlight, "reflected" damage from_________ > King of the Mountain and Blood of Acid, and so on. Or, in short, > damage is either "inflicted" by the minion itself (ally or vampire) or_ > "caused" by an "environmental" source. That's it. There are only two______ > categories of damage origination. I immediately pointed out that Carrion Crows was Enviornmental damage. You then disagreed, we looked up on someones Palm Pilot Errata Database that Carrion Crow damage is treated as retainer based damage. therefore Carrion Crows is enviornmental damage. Just another lesson in logic (If all dogs are mammals, and spot is a dog, then spot is a mammal). I only suggest that next tourney you try to actually find the correct answer instead of making one up. [ quoted text not captured ]

Would you two take this to private emails. You two ought to be embarassed about putting your differences with each other on a worldwide forum. [ quoted text not captured ]

martin.c...@southbeds.gov.uk (Marty) wrote in message news:<a1d15b7.02030...@posting.google.com>... > <SNIP> > Look, Prince or not, you quite clearly don't understand what's what > here. Untap phase - the VERY FIRST THING you MUST (!) do in the untap > phase is UNTAP!!! Therefore, VD takes effect before any 'during the > untap phase' effects - as does Charnas the Imp. What you can decide > is which order these 'when you untap' effects happen. I.E. you could > decide to take the 1 damage from Charnas AND THEN burn the one blood > for the VD. After this, all other 'untap phase' effects will have to > be resolved (in whatever order the acting player likes). > And as a side note, environmental damage cannot be prevented with > 'prevent damage from a strike' card (Leather Jacket, Superior Mettle > etc.) and if you match the little symbols on the cards with the little > symbols on the vampires, this shows what you can and can't use. No > wonder there was a lot of arguments/warnings. > And for the record, I think it was a bad call too! :) Thank you for your considerable input, Marty. But next time, I'll just listen to Mr. Coupe or LSJ himself! I'm sure YOU NEVER, EVER made any mistakes EVER in any game you've EVER played in or judged. At least I've got the cajones to fess up to my own mistakes regardless how BAD they may be!

wa...@nevada.edu (Brad Ward) wrote in message news:<e5b93701.02030...@posting.google.com>... > getd...@earthlink.net (Keith Thompson) wrote in message news:<946af913.02030...@posting.google.com>... [snip redundant text] > Um, ok I guess your just going to feel even more foolish when you > finally realize your still wrong about the untap timing and effects. Not really. I misunderstood the damn "timing" rules of VTES. (And who, among the population of VTES players can honestly say they *completely* understand the timing rules in VTES?) Let's add into the mix that I play at least four other CCG's competitively, and so I'm not above making a mistake or two! Honestly, mountains out of mole hills, here, Brad. A Leather Jacket incident that probably helped out Dan (the "victim Methuselah") more than hurt, and a "timing error" regarding everyone's favorite "burning" card VD (Vampiric Disease). Yes, my BAD call allowed Mariel to bleed for 3 (with a Govern the Unaligned), effectively earning Mike (the "controlling" Methuselah) a VP for ousting his prey Steve. However, I don't think this action had a tremendous impact on the game, and in hindsight, it probably helped you out, Brad. Steve was dead-to-rights because he had no defense--I repeat NO DEFENSE--against a stealth bleeder, and Cornelius Octavio, with a base 3 bleed against Steve's FoS, would have "closed the deal" on Steve next turn anyway. That is, unless you, Brad, "allowed" Steve to Social Charm bleed you with Khalil (w/ superior Presence), thereby allowing Steve to gain a pool. (Steve had no other blood recursion on the table at this point.) Yes, Steve could have *maybe* hung on for a turn or two, but then again, he might have gone forward with a vengeance! Anyway you look at it, Brad, having Steve gone as your predator was good for you (unless, of course, you struck some kind of deal with Steve at the beginning of the game). Bad Call: Yes. Effect on the Game: Minor. (Not quite like the 2001 NAC Pacific Qualifiers where Robert Goudie died to a Fame that should have disappeared when its "controller" was ousted! Ouch! Now that's a major effect on a game.) > You asked LSJ a question that was not specific to what happened in > game. He answered your question correctly and you misinterpreted his > answer. I wouldn't call you illiterate for that mistake, you are just > not well versed in thinking logically. Actually, I'm very well versed in logic. I understand conditional statements, inverses, contrapositives, and the like. I am quite good at math, and I teach it to boot. I simply misunderstood LSJ's response. He was trying to be brief and succinct ("brevity is excellence"), and I read it too quickly. My fault. I understand it now. You, however, are still illiterate, in my opinion, since you refuse to (or can't) capitalize proper names, write sentences with consistent grammatical structure, or spell very well. Do you ever review what you've written, or do you just peck away at your keyboard without any care as to what you've written? I suspect the latter. [snip] > I immediately pointed out that Carrion Crows was Enviornmental damage. > You then disagreed, we looked up on someones Palm Pilot Errata > Database that Carrion Crow damage is treated as retainer based damage. > therefore Carrion Crows is enviornmental damage. Just another lesson > in logic (If all dogs are mammals, and spot is a dog, then spot is a > mammal). It's environmental [spelling]. Thanks for the "logic" lesson illustrating the transitive property. I accepted the decision, now, didn't I? I'll remember it forever. And you can quote me on that! > I only suggest that next tourney you try to actually find the correct > answer instead of making one up. So, Brad, now you're calling me a "liar"? Now I "make things up", do I? I have never sunk so low as to resort to name-calling and bad-mouthing. Not once have I impeached your "character" by calling you a "liar", but now you insist on doing so to me! What, are you still sore because you showed up on the wrong day of the Final Nights Pre-Release, despite at least two e-mails from me telling you it was Saturday instead of Sunday? Just what *kind* of a "Prince" (and I use the term loosely) are you? No wonder Carl Pilhatsch has begun an "Archon Investigation" into your affairs. Do us BOTH a favor and "choose not" to attend my events!!! [ quoted text not captured ]

"X_Zealot" <x_ze...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<l8bh8.13628$sK.2...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] It's *already* public knowledge. But I'm done with the thread (after my last post). Keith M. Thompson Prince of Las Vegas P.S. By the way, Norm, when is the hot sauce coming? I've been waiting for it since November, when you promised it to me.

getd...@earthlink.net (Keith Thompson) wrote in message news:<946af913.02030...@posting.google.com>... > wa...@nevada.edu (Brad Ward) wrote in message news:<e5b93701.02030...@posting.google.com>... > > getd...@earthlink.net (Keith Thompson) wrote in message news:<946af913.02030...@posting.google.com>... > > Bad Call: Yes. Effect > on the Game: Minor. (Not quite like the 2001 NAC Pacific Qualifiers > where Robert Goudie died to a Fame that should have disappeared when > its "controller" was ousted! Ouch! Now that's a major effect on a > game.) I'm curious, what transpired in the NAC Pacific Qualifier? > > > You asked LSJ a question that was not specific to what happened in > > game. He answered your question correctly and you misinterpreted his > > answer. I wouldn't call you illiterate for that mistake, you are just > > not well versed in thinking logically. > > Actually, I'm very well versed in logic. I understand conditional > statements, inverses, contrapositives, and the like. I am quite good > at math, and I teach it to boot. I simply misunderstood LSJ's > response. He was trying to be brief and succinct ("brevity is > excellence"), and I read it too quickly. My fault. I understand it > now. You, however, are still illiterate, in my opinion, since you > refuse to (or can't) capitalize proper names, write sentences with > consistent grammatical structure, or spell very well. Do you ever > review what you've written, or do you just peck away at your keyboard > without any care as to what you've written? I suspect the latter. Ok, stop this now. This is *extremely* embarrassing! :( (snip) > No wonder Carl Pilhatsch has begun an > "Archon Investigation" into your affairs. Do us BOTH a favor and > "choose not" to attend my events!!! The internal department of Archonical Investigations on Vampiric Things (AIVT) officially denies any claims by third parties that any "being" is currently under surveillance. Please refrain from further statements that could bring innocent bystanders into heavy trouble, otherwise the option to declared Anathema will be looked into closely. > > Keith M. Thompson > Prince of Las Vegas Now, please, can you two not go along together? This really sucks. Stop hostilities and try to spread the word of VTES in your cities! *That* should be on your minds... ;) Carl

getd...@earthlink.net (Keith Thompson) wrote in message news:<946af913.02030...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Keith Thompson - Ranking 200th Martin Cubberley - Ranking 15th Obviously not as many as you have :) On a less bitchy note, I really liked the turn-by-turn report, gives you a good idea of what went on. But, what the hell were you lot doing in Las Vegas and not gambling/drinking/messing about with table dancers.... The mind boggles! I know which one I'd rather be doing!!! Martin

Marty wrote: > getd...@earthlink.net (Keith Thompson) wrote in message > > Thank you for your considerable input, Marty. But next time, I'll > > just listen to Mr. Coupe or LSJ himself! I'm sure YOU NEVER, EVER > > made any mistakes EVER in any game you've EVER played in or judged. > > At least I've got the cajones to fess up to my own mistakes regardless > > how BAD they may be! > > Keith Thompson - Ranking 200th > Martin Cubberley - Ranking 15th > > Obviously not as many as you have :) One should not equate poor (legal) play with mistaken (illegal) play. L. Scott Johnson - Ranking 152nd I'm of the opinion that ranking is more related to deckbuiling and gameplaying ability (and luck of draw and seating etc.) than it is to rules judging ability or depth of rules knowledge. (At least, I hope so :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

carl.pi...@chello.at (Carl Pilhatsch) wrote in message news:<e7883b0c.0203...@posting.google.com>... <snip various events> > > Actually, I'm very well versed in logic. I understand conditional > > statements, inverses, contrapositives, and the like. I am quite good > > at math, and I teach it to boot. I simply misunderstood LSJ's > > response. He was trying to be brief and succinct ("brevity is > > excellence"), and I read it too quickly. My fault. I understand it > > now. You, however, are still illiterate, in my opinion, since you > > refuse to (or can't) capitalize proper names, write sentences with > > consistent grammatical structure, or spell very well. Do you ever > > review what you've written, or do you just peck away at your keyboard > > without any care as to what you've written? I suspect the latter. > > Ok, stop this now. This is *extremely* embarrassing! :( Seconded. <snip> > Now, please, can you two not go along together? This really sucks. > Stop hostilities and try to spread the word of VTES in your cities! > *That* should be on your minds... ;) Seconded. If you want constructive criticism: place yourself above the playing field and this argument, and have the players from your respective cities slug out the highly dramatic tension between your geographical regions. Only enforce rulings from on high if you unanimously agree, otherwise, let the table decide themselves. (There is, I find, in general, plenty of reference information available. See also the recent unofficial word document compilation.) Anything to keep this off the newsgroups and away from ad hominim attacks. Tobias Deventer

In message <3C86297C...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white- wolf.com> writes: >I'm of the opinion that ranking is more related to deckbuiling and >gameplaying ability (and luck of draw and seating etc.) than it is >to rules judging ability or depth of rules knowledge. > >(At least, I hope so :-) You and me both. (#243 and I can't remember the last time I actually got to sit down and play a game.) [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > I'm of the opinion that ranking is more related to deckbuiling and > gameplaying ability (and luck of draw and seating etc.) than it is > to rules judging ability or depth of rules knowledge. (snort) With the current ranking system, I think it has more to do with the alignment of the stars than anything else... Fred

[ quoted text not captured ] Can't see how; don't see smilie. It obviously depends more on (for instance) the player's performance in her most recent game than the alignment of the stars. At any rate, when comparing the things being compared in my original statement, the original statement holds, regardless of one's desire to deflect the topic into a rant about the rating system and the rankings derived therefrom. [ quoted text not captured ]

getd...@earthlink.net (Keith Thompson) wrote in message news:<946af913.02030...@posting.google.com>... > wa...@nevada.edu (Brad Ward) wrote in message news:<e5b93701.02030...@posting.google.com>... > > getd...@earthlink.net (Keith Thompson) wrote in message news:<946af913.02030...@posting.google.com>... > > [snip redundant text] > > > Um, ok I guess your just going to feel even more foolish when you > > finally realize your still wrong about the untap timing and effects. > > Not really. I misunderstood the damn "timing" rules of VTES. (And > who, among the population of VTES players can honestly say they > *completely* understand the timing rules in VTES?) Let's add into the That's all I wanted keith, was for you to realize that you indeed made some bad calls. Next time the players show you some rules in the rulebook perhaps you will correct a future "bad call". > regarding everyone's favorite "burning" card VD (Vampiric Disease). > Yes, my BAD call allowed Mariel to bleed for 3 (with a Govern the > Unaligned), effectively earning Mike (the "controlling" Methuselah) a > VP for ousting his prey Steve. However, I don't think this action had > a tremendous impact on the game, and in hindsight, it probably helped > you out, Brad. Steve was dead-to-rights because he had no defense--I > repeat NO DEFENSE--against a stealth bleeder, and Cornelius Octavio, > with a base 3 bleed against Steve's FoS, would have "closed the deal" > on Steve next turn anyway. That is, unless you, Brad, "allowed" Steve > to Social Charm bleed you with Khalil (w/ superior Presence), thereby > allowing Steve to gain a pool. (Steve had no other blood recursion on > the table at this point.) Yes, Steve could have *maybe* hung on for a > turn or two, but then again, he might have gone forward with a > vengeance! Anyway you look at it, Brad, having Steve gone as your > predator was good for you (unless, of course, you struck some kind of > deal with Steve at the beginning of the game). Bad Call: Yes. Effect After sweeping the previous 3 rounds, I never had a doubt that I wasn't going to win the final. For some reason you think I was worried about the bad calls you made because they were going make me lose. That never was the case. > > You asked LSJ a question that was not specific to what happened in > > game. He answered your question correctly and you misinterpreted his > > answer. I wouldn't call you illiterate for that mistake, you are just > > not well versed in thinking logically. > > Actually, I'm very well versed in logic. I understand conditional > statements, inverses, contrapositives, and the like. I am quite good > at math, and I teach it to boot. I simply misunderstood LSJ's > response. He was trying to be brief and succinct ("brevity is > excellence"), and I read it too quickly. My fault. I understand it > now. You, however, are still illiterate, in my opinion, since you > refuse to (or can't) capitalize proper names, write sentences with > consistent grammatical structure, or spell very well. Do you ever > review what you've written, or do you just peck away at your keyboard > without any care as to what you've written? I suspect the latter. kieth, I'm surprised you noticed that I specifically don't capitalize your name. It's just my little way of showing that I don't respect you enough to capitalize it. > > I immediately pointed out that Carrion Crows was Enviornmental damage. > > You then disagreed, we looked up on someones Palm Pilot Errata > > Database that Carrion Crow damage is treated as retainer based damage. > > therefore Carrion Crows is enviornmental damage. Just another lesson > > in logic (If all dogs are mammals, and spot is a dog, then spot is a > > mammal). > > It's environmental [spelling]. Thanks for the "logic" lesson > illustrating the transitive property. I accepted the decision, now, > didn't I? I'll remember it forever. And you can quote me on that! > > > I only suggest that next tourney you try to actually find the correct > > answer instead of making one up. > > So, Brad, now you're calling me a "liar"? Now I "make things up", do > I? I have never sunk so low as to resort to name-calling and > bad-mouthing. Not once have I impeached your "character" by calling > you a "liar", but now you insist on doing so to me! What, are you > still sore because you showed up on the wrong day of the Final Nights > Pre-Release, despite at least two e-mails from me telling you it was > Saturday instead of Sunday? Just what *kind* of a "Prince" (and I use > the term loosely) are you? No wonder Carl Pilhatsch has begun an > "Archon Investigation" into your affairs. Do us BOTH a favor and > "choose not" to attend my events!!! Well, you have called me illiterate because I won't capitalize your name. That aside, you did make rulings up that weren't correct. If you didn't make up those rules who did? I wouldn't say that makes you a liar. I guess you thought it was your job as a Judge to make up a rule and go with it, even when the players object and point out the correct rule. Sometimes as a Judge you have to make a ruling where the rules aren't specific or clear. You however, were making bad rulings where the rules are very clear and shown to you. -Brad Ward

LSJ wrote: > > Frederick Scott wrote: > > > > LSJ wrote: > > > > > > I'm of the opinion that ranking is more related to deckbuiling and > > > gameplaying ability (and luck of draw and seating etc.) than it is > > > to rules judging ability or depth of rules knowledge. > > > > (snort) With the current ranking system, I think it has more to do with > > the alignment of the stars than anything else... > > Can't see how; don't see smilie. It obviously depends more on (for > instance) the player's performance in her most recent game than the > alignment of the stars. > > At any rate, when comparing the things being compared in my > original statement, the original statement holds, regardless > of one's desire to deflect the topic into a rant about the > rating system and the rankings derived therefrom. I guess the point I was trying to make was the your rating has to do with your performance in so few games (the most very recent ones) that it has a lot more to do with the current date than your ability. Is it March 6th - in which case your rating might be 3250 - a very good one? Or is it two weeks ago, February 20th - in which case it have been 3025, a rather mediocre one? The date determines your rating more so than skill. And to figure out what the current date is, we might look at... Fred

[ quoted text not captured ] Not true. Your peformance in your most recent game has an impact. The time elapsed since your most recent game has no impact (except in your ranking, as opposed to rating, as other players' (who are playing) move about you). [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > Frederick Scott wrote: > > I guess the point I was trying to make was the your rating has to do with > > your performance in so few games (the most very recent ones) that it has a > > lot more to do with the current date than your ability. Is it March 6th - in > > which case your rating might be 3250 - a very good one? Or is it two weeks > > ago, February 20th - in which case it have been 3025, a rather mediocre one? > > The date determines your rating more so than skill. > > Not true. Your peformance in your most recent game has an impact. > The time elapsed since your most recent game has no impact (on your ratings) Quibble noted. I think my point is still fairly apparently: that ratings readily vary by so much that it matters more after which tournament you choose to take your peek at it than how good you are. Or, to steal a common phrase about the weather in various places, "If you don't like your current Jyhad rating, just wait a minute!" Fred

On 6 Mar 2002, Brad Ward wrote: > Well, you have called me illiterate because I won't capitalize your > name. That aside, you did make rulings up that weren't correct. If > you didn't make up those rules who did? I wouldn't say that makes you > a liar. I guess you thought it was your job as a Judge to make up a > rule and go with it, even when the players object and point out the > correct rule. Sometimes as a Judge you have to make a ruling where > the rules aren't specific or clear. You however, were making bad > rulings where the rules are very clear and shown to you. This topic is of some interest to me, since I'll be judging my first tournement soon, hopefully. I think I'm in the 95 percentile range on rules-knowledge, but I'm worried that upper 5 percent is going to bite me in the ass. I'm just giving you some background information so you'll know I'm not just jumping in here to nitpick. And because, god forbid, you deem me not respectable enough to capatalize my name. It really, really hurts my feelings when people write my name as "david." I like "David." Mmm'kay? I doubt Keith "made rulings up." Certainly, if he did, then he would be a "bad guy" and you would get to be the "good guy." More likely, he proceeded in a chain of reasoning that included some false premises, and so arrived at a false conclusion. This is not "making things up." Making things up would be something like "Anybody who's name is 'brad' and who is world-famous for being an obnoxious little prick only gets to start the game with twenty pool." Keith was the judge of this event. His word, even if he's wrong, is final. If you can't understand this basic fact (which, IIRC, is in the Tournement rules), what right do you have to even claim the title of Prince? David Cherryholmes Prince of Durham Rating: Low. I mean really, really low.

On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:03:00 -0500, David Cherryholmes <d...@petsparc.mc.duke.edu> wrote: >This topic is of some interest to me, since I'll be judging my first >tournement soon, hopefully. I think I'm in the 95 percentile range on >rules-knowledge, but I'm worried that upper 5 percent is going to bite me >in the ass. I'm just giving you some background information so you'll >know I'm not just jumping in here to nitpick. Good question. So what are those hidden 5% rulings that would most likely bite the good judge in the posterior? Enquiring minds want to know. T

[ quoted text not captured ] In my experience, these vary considerably from judge to judge. My inability to give a correct ruling on Scorpion Sting when it crops up online is legendary, for instance. What you also have to bear in mind is that tricky rulings often occur from cards that just don't turn up much in a given play-group. (And so someone has gone off to find an obscure (for their metagame) card to exploit.) This will necessarily make things problematic. However, in terms of tricky rulings, the ones I find I have to make most often which people disagree with: - what you can actually do in a Blood Hunt referendum - how Compel the Spirit works - vote replenishment and political action card playing Betrayer is a bastard, simply because there is a lot of text to plough through in the rulings. It's never come up, that I recall, however. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > Talonz51 wrote: > >So what are those hidden 5% rulings that would most likely bite the > >good judge in the posterior? > > In my experience, these vary considerably from judge to judge. > However, in terms of tricky rulings, the ones I find I have to make most > often which people disagree with: > > - what you can actually do in a Blood Hunt referendum > - how Compel the Spirit works > - vote replenishment and political action card playing > > Betrayer is a bastard, simply because there is a lot of text to plough > through in the rulings. It's never come up, that I recall, however. For me, it's not so much the card rulings as it is rulings on procedural errors. Figuring out what to do when someone's screwed up the playing of a card, especially when it's noticed after the fact, can be a pain in the neck. - Ben Peal, Prince of Boston fu...@mindstorm.com

In message <bf72a12e.02030...@posting.google.com>, Ben Peal <fu...@optical.mindstorm.com> writes: >> In my experience, these vary considerably from judge to judge. >> However, in terms of tricky rulings, the ones I find I have to make most >> often which people disagree with: >> >> - what you can actually do in a Blood Hunt referendum >> - how Compel the Spirit works >> - vote replenishment and political action card playing >> >> Betrayer is a bastard, simply because there is a lot of text to plough >> through in the rulings. It's never come up, that I recall, however. > > For me, it's not so much the card rulings as it is rulings on > procedural errors. Very true, these can be arses. I forgot Hidden Lurker, however. [ quoted text not captured ]