[LSJ] Telepathic Tracking and ready vampires

While looking into the Anathema thread I found what looks like a flaw in Telepathic Tracking's text: it is only playable when both minions are still ready, and combat is about to end. But since vampires only enter torpor after combat ends, it would seem that TT should still be playable even if a vampire is going to torpor later (due to damage). Am I missing something? I'm probably not thinking straight by now, but I can't find anything on Google either. Flux

Flux wrote: > > While looking into the Anathema thread I found what looks like a flaw in > Telepathic Tracking's text: it is only playable when both minions are > still ready, and combat is about to end. But since vampires only enter > torpor after combat ends, it would seem that TT should still be playable > even if a vampire is going to torpor later (due to damage). > > Am I missing something? The wounded vampire isn't ready. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > Flux wrote: > > >While looking into the Anathema thread I found what looks like a flaw in > >Telepathic Tracking's text: it is only playable when both minions are > >still ready, and combat is about to end. But since vampires only enter > >torpor after combat ends, it would seem that TT should still be playable > >even if a vampire is going to torpor later (due to damage). > > > >Am I missing something? > > > The wounded vampire isn't ready. But he's not in torpor yet, that only happens when combat ends. Why is he not ready? Are you saying that a wounded vampire is never ready, even before he is moved into torpor? That would make TT unusable in a combat with an Undead Persistenced vampire, since the UP vampire is wounded. Or is it that just a vampire 'going to torpor' is no longer ready (even though he's still in the ready region until after combat ends)? That would have some interesting implications for vampire abilities that work when the vampire is ready: - Jan Pieterzoon is wounded in combat, and is going to torpor. As soon as he is going to torpor and not ready, everyone's hand increases back by 1, but then he plays Undead Persistence, so he's no longer going to torpor (he's ready again) and everybody gets to discard one card again. Great way to annoy your enemies :) Flux

Flux wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > > Flux wrote: > > > > >While looking into the Anathema thread I found what looks like a flaw in > > >Telepathic Tracking's text: it is only playable when both minions are > > >still ready, and combat is about to end. But since vampires only enter > > >torpor after combat ends, it would seem that TT should still be playable > > >even if a vampire is going to torpor later (due to damage). > > > > > >Am I missing something? > > > > > > The wounded vampire isn't ready. > > But he's not in torpor yet, that only happens when combat ends. > Why is he not ready? Are you saying that a wounded vampire is never > ready, even before he is moved into torpor? > That would make TT unusable in a combat with an Undead Persistenced > vampire, since the UP vampire is wounded. Undead Persistence keeps the wounded vampire ready. > Or is it that just a vampire 'going to torpor' is no longer ready (even > though he's still in the ready region until after combat ends)? > > That would have some interesting implications for vampire abilities that > work when the vampire is ready: > > - Jan Pieterzoon is wounded in combat, and is going to torpor. As soon > as he is going to torpor and not ready, everyone's hand increases back > by 1, but then he plays Undead Persistence, so he's no longer going to > torpor (he's ready again) and everybody gets to discard one card again. > > Great way to annoy your enemies :) Undead Persistence will keep Jan ready, so no one's hand size is increased (until after combat, when he goes to torpor). [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Flux wrote: > > >LSJ wrote: > > > >>Flux wrote: > >> > >>>While looking into the Anathema thread I found what looks like a > flaw in > >>>Telepathic Tracking's text: it is only playable when both minions are > >>>still ready, and combat is about to end. But since vampires only enter > >>>torpor after combat ends, it would seem that TT should still be > playable > >>>even if a vampire is going to torpor later (due to damage). > >>> > >>>Am I missing something? > >> > >> > >>The wounded vampire isn't ready. > > > >But he's not in torpor yet, that only happens when combat ends. > >Why is he not ready? Are you saying that a wounded vampire is never > >ready, even before he is moved into torpor? > >That would make TT unusable in a combat with an Undead Persistenced > >vampire, since the UP vampire is wounded. > > Undead Persistence keeps the wounded vampire ready. > > > >Or is it that just a vampire 'going to torpor' is no longer ready (even > >though he's still in the ready region until after combat ends)? > > > >That would have some interesting implications for vampire abilities that > >work when the vampire is ready: > > > >- Jan Pieterzoon is wounded in combat, and is going to torpor. As soon > >as he is going to torpor and not ready, everyone's hand increases back > >by 1, but then he plays Undead Persistence, so he's no longer going to > >torpor (he's ready again) and everybody gets to discard one card again. > > > >Great way to annoy your enemies :) > > > Undead Persistence will keep Jan ready, so no one's hand size is > increased (until after combat, when he goes to torpor). There you go, confusing the hell out of me again!! :) If UP _keeps_ him ready, he must be ready when UP is played. But if TT is not playable, he can't be ready by the time combat is about to end. So what you have is something like: a) - damage resolution -> vampire wounded, going to torpor, still ready b) <- UP would be played here, stopping the sequence but maintaining 'wounded' status c) - Vampire ceases to be ready, still 'going to torpor' d) <- TT would be played here, if both vampires were still ready e) - combat ends f) - move vampire to torpor Is that right? What I find strange is step c), which must occur by your answers, yet goes against (what I thought was) the definition of a 'ready vampire', which is one that is not in torpor. I'd rather have TT read 'only usable if neither minion is going to torpor', and have 'ready' mean 'not in torpor', per the rulesbook definition. Flux

Flux wrote: > LSJ wrote: > > Undead Persistence will keep Jan ready, so no one's hand size is > > increased (until after combat, when he goes to torpor). > > There you go, confusing the hell out of me again!! :) > > If UP _keeps_ him ready, he must be ready when UP is played. But if TT > is not playable, he can't be ready by the time combat is about to end. Minor Boon also "keeps" him ready. (Fame won't kick in, for example). > So what you have is something like: > > a) - damage resolution -> vampire wounded, going to torpor, still ready Going to torpor (not ready). > b) <- UP would be played here, stopping the sequence but maintaining > 'wounded' status Correct, canceling the "unreadying" part of a) > c) - Vampire ceases to be ready, still 'going to torpor' This is part of a) > d) <- TT would be played here, if both vampires were still ready > e) - combat ends > f) - move vampire to torpor > > Is that right? > What I find strange is step c), which must occur by your answers, yet > goes against (what I thought was) the definition of a 'ready vampire', > which is one that is not in torpor. > > I'd rather have TT read 'only usable if neither minion is going to > torpor', and have 'ready' mean 'not in torpor', per the rulesbook > definition. -- [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3DE4C03D...@white-wolf.com... > Flux wrote: > > LSJ wrote: > > > Undead Persistence will keep Jan ready, so no one's hand size is > > > increased (until after combat, when he goes to torpor). > > So what you have is something like: > > > > a) - damage resolution -> vampire wounded, going to torpor, still ready > > Going to torpor (not ready). > > > b) <- UP would be played here, stopping the sequence but maintaining > > 'wounded' status > > Correct, canceling the "unreadying" part of a) So Undead Persistence is played as an "interrupting/canceling" effect, like Sudden Reversal or Rewind Time. So is Minor Boon. Is that right? Josh cancel transaction (y/n)?

[ quoted text not captured ] As long as that colloquialism matches the official rules, yeah. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3DEF90EB...@white-wolf.com... > Joshua Duffin wrote: > > > > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > > news:3DE4C03D...@white-wolf.com... > > > Flux wrote: > > > > LSJ wrote: > > > > > Undead Persistence will keep Jan ready, so no one's hand size is > > > > > increased (until after combat, when he goes to torpor). > > > > > > So what you have is something like: > > > > > > > > a) - damage resolution -> vampire wounded, going to torpor, still ready > > > > > > Going to torpor (not ready). > > > > > > > b) <- UP would be played here, stopping the sequence but maintaining > > > > 'wounded' status > > > > > > Correct, canceling the "unreadying" part of a) > > > > So Undead Persistence is played as an "interrupting/canceling" > > effect, like Sudden Reversal or Rewind Time. So is Minor Boon. > > Is that right? > > As long as that colloquialism matches the official rules, yeah. Well, that wasn't very enlightening. ;-) If you don't want to produce a comprehensive vocabulary and rule set for VTES, obviously I can't make you. But there don't seem to be "official rules" that address this kind of thing. Official rulings, yes, but that's not the same. It matters, as Flux pointed out, that Undead Persistence and Minor Boon retroactively cancel the torporizing effect that makes them playable, because if they didn't (but simply changed the status of the vampire to "ready" from "unready") then Jan Pieterzoon's ability (and similar effects) would stop working and then start again. This is not something described in an existing rules document, as far as I know. Josh wide ruled

Joshua Duffin wrote: > If you don't want to produce a comprehensive vocabulary and rule > set for VTES, obviously I can't make you. You want an official definition for "responsible bleeding"? I don't see that happening. The vocabulary that is needed is defined. > But there don't seem > to be "official rules" that address this kind of thing. Official > rulings, yes, but that's not the same. Official rules don't designate ad-hoc descriptions for certain effects, no. That's what ad-hoc descriptions are for. [ quoted text not captured ]