Deck Shuffling Technology?

So I'm playing a !Brujah deck currently that has Waste Management Operations in it. Not to do anything tricky, but 'cause it seems like a solid inclusion in a deck that can use it. But if I'm using WMO to move cards to the bottom of my deck, really, I want to be able to shuffle it to churn the good cards back into circulation, as opposed to just waiting to draw down to the bottom (as this isn't some sort of twister wackiness). So I'm looking into good, low effort deck shuffling tech. There are a lot of transient effects that shuffle your deck for you (i.e. an action that lets you shuffle your deck once--Scrounging is the easiest to use), but to make that pay off with WMO, you need to use them a lot. So I'm looking at cards that let you shuffle your deck on a regular basis. And the two most reliable are: -Vast Wealth: Pros: Gets equipment from the deck. Which the deck has a bit of, but nothing real vital. Cons: Takes an vampire action every time you use it. Is only at +1 stealth. Takes the place of a actually useful Master. -Repo Man: Pros: Cheap at 1 blood. Can theoretically block something in a pinch or take weird actions if need be. Can take the shuffle action every turn at +2 stealth. Cons: Someone might steal him. I don't use vehicles in the deck, which isn't really a con, so much. Are there other good, permanent options I'm missing? Which one seems most useful? I considered Aranthebes as it is a really good card anyway, and I can take an action to shuffle him back into the deck, but that seems really convoluted. And kind of dumb. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] I don't know what you are doing in the deck, but there are crypt based options. Dan Murdock repeatable action Thomas Sneed Leaf 'Potter116' Pankowski (not action based) Cristos Mangito Antonio d`Erlette (not action based) I built a deck (anarch) that used Lord Ephraim Wainwright w/ Brujah ! Camarilla: When Ephraim plays an action card, you may search your library for another copy of that card and move it to your ash heap. If the action succeeds, move the card to your hand. Not seeing the deck I like Leaf or Antonio best since your deck shuffling can not be blocked. Antotino gives you access to bounce. The only other option I can think of is Trophey; Retainers. I don't know if any of this helps or could be better then the options you have already presented. Just a little peak outside of the box (proven effective) Matt

On Dec 12, 6:25 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] I think that Vast Wealth is your simplest bet. It's a permanent that goes on a minion to let you take an action to get equipment. It's not unique and hard to get rid of. For some fun, you could do a deck where !brujah(and some friends) with CEL use Saturday Night Specials with some Dragon's Breath Rounds and Target Vitals. Cheaper than .44s, still pretty effective with TV and DBR (plus additional strikes and some Psyche!, of course), and you can use your Vast Wealth a little more freely knowing that you won't accidentally blow 2 pool. !Brujah like guns anyway, so there's some synergy there. Brandon

*Desert Eagle's might also be a decent option for the same price since you are sporting all kinds of combat pwnage in that deck archetype.

[ quoted text not captured ] If you can squeeze in like 4-5 real Brujah in the crypt, Al's Army Apparatus is a nice one. Al's Army Apparatus Type: Master Requires: Brujah Master: unique location. During your minion phase, you may tap this card to search your library for a weapon and move it to your hand (shuffle and discard afterward).

Peter D Bakija wrote: > -Repo Man: Pros: Cheap at 1 blood. Can theoretically block > something in a pinch or take weird actions if need be. Can take > the shuffle action every turn at +2 stealth. Cons: Someone might > steal him. I don't use vehicles in the deck, which isn't really a con, > so much. If you can afford to add 2-3x Sport Bike, I think Repo Man could really make your deck shine. A few guys with +1 intercept could save you in a pinch. Maybe even an Ambulance for the continue on the rushes? I suppose you could do the same thing with Vast Wealth, but it's a Master, it's only 1 stealth, and it wastes a vampire action to do it. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html

On Dec 12, 1:56 pm, henrik <www.hen...@gmail.com> wrote: > If you can squeeze in like 4-5 real Brujah in the crypt, Al's Army > Apparatus is a nice one. Oh, yeah, AAA's (the first name in the phone book!) is the best option, and in any, like, Cel/Pot deck I ever make, I generally include both AAA and WMO for just such an occasion, but in this case, I'm stuck with a pure !Brujah deck (it is a deck that revolves around Unexpected Coalition and Con Boon for pool gain), so I had to find something other than Al's :-) I probably should have mentioned that in the initial post. -Peter

On Dec 12, 3:42 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > If you can afford to add 2-3x Sport Bike, I think Repo Man could > really make your deck shine. A few guys with +1 intercept could > save you in a pinch. Maybe even an Ambulance for the continue > on the rushes? Yeah, I was considering that, actually--currently, the deck is !Brujah using Unexpected Coalition and Con Boon to gain pool and has WWS/CEL combat tech with a few Bats/Swords (Crusader Sword) for some permanent combat. Putting in Repo Man and maybe a couple Sports Bikes or Ambulances is probably the way to go. -Peter

On Dec 12, 12:52 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: > I don't know what you are doing in the deck, but there are crypt based > options. > Dan Murdock repeatable action > Thomas Sneed > Leaf 'Potter116' Pankowski (not action based) > Cristos Mangito > Antonio d`Erlette (not action based) Ooh! Those are clever, but for this deck, I need to keep the crypt all !Brujah (Con Boon and Unexpected Coalition tech--the G2 crypt is the good one for this particular deck). Looking at these guys, Zahir would fit in (CEL and can go through the deck and find a Contract), but still, wanna stay all !Brujah. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] A small trophy package may work well depending on you crypt and masters in addition to repo man and vast wealth. I am assuming that it will a dogs of war deck of course. 2 trumped up charges 1 retainers +(winthrop & jackie therman) 1 domain 1 wealth 1 no questions Matt

On Dec 12, 4:19 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: > A small trophy package may work well depending on you crypt and > masters in addition to repo man and vast wealth. > I am assuming that it will a dogs of war deck of course. Oh, yeah, Dogs of War is certainly in there. That is an interesting idea. But how do you burn the Red Listers to get the trophies? Amaranth? -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Diablerie -dogs of war protects if needed Matt

[ quoted text not captured ] If Carlton is on the table he is the redlisted minion

On Dec 12, 5:26 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: > Diablerie > -dogs of war protects if needed Oh, yeah, duh. That isn't bad! -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Well if you have titled !bru, creation Rites aint bad, it fits into your cons boon theme, and it gives you weenies. While also allowing a shuffle. Not the perma tech you were looking for, but still useful i think. Other options are Path of death and the soul, any small cap diablerizing, summoning (you have pre and you can get funky allies like carlton et al). Ashur tablets fit into the recursion them, AND give you pool (TAKE THAT! Stupid ascendance... ;) Reinforcements also allow recursion, fit into the vote theme, and give you a shuffle. The scrounging could work. Both trophy retainer as previously mentioned and also trophy progeny. If you are playing Salinger, Codex of the damned is also worth a try.

On Dec 12, 4:52 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Dec 12, 5:26 pm, wedge <matt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Diablerie > > -dogs of war protects if needed Diablerie allows you to search your deck for a skill card then shuffle, so if that is what you are saying then that is your solution.

Peter D Bakija wrote: > > > -Repo Man: Pros: Cheap at 1 blood. Can theoretically block something > in a pinch or take weird actions if need be. Can take the shuffle > action every turn at +2 stealth. Cons: Someone might steal him. I > don't use vehicles in the deck, which isn't really a con, so much. > Repo Man of course also brings up the soundtrack to the movie of that name featuring Black Flag, Circle Jerks, Suicidal Tendencies, and more. Worth playing him just for that... best - chris

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, you could include Inconnu Tutelage, especially if you have multiples in your crypt. Works only once or twice, but it gets you a card in hand and shuffles your deck. Cost is a crypt card and four transfers though - and depending on your deck you may not afford it. - jussi

On Dec 13, 9:26 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > Repo Man of course also brings up the soundtrack to the > movie of that name featuring Black Flag, Circle Jerks, > Suicidal Tendencies, and more. Worth playing him just for > that... This is quite true. Really, the main reason to play that card, for my money... -Peter

On Dec 14, 4:32 am, Jussi <jussi.ra...@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, you could include Inconnu Tutelage, especially if you have > multiples in your crypt. Works only once or twice, but it gets you a > card in hand and shuffles your deck. Cost is a crypt card and four > transfers though - and depending on your deck you may not afford it. Ooh! That is a good one! -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Well, the untapped helicopters are kinda kewl.....

[ quoted text not captured ] No my solution is trophy retainers. You need not have a retainer in your library to search for one. The other three trophies are what I thought would be most benificial in addition to it.

[ quoted text not captured ] Interesting timing on this discussion. I have a Assamite beretta deck (star being Zahir), but i threw in 3 !bru and a waste management just to recycle in end game. i don't really _need_ those cards until end game though, so i am happy to not need to shuffle. -- salem (replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)

Peter D Bakija wrote: > So I'm playing a !Brujah deck currently that has Waste Management > Operations in it. Not to do anything tricky, but 'cause it seems like > a solid inclusion in a deck that can use it. But if I'm using WMO to > move cards to the bottom of my deck, really, I want to be able to > shuffle it to churn the good cards back into circulation, as opposed > to just waiting to draw down to the bottom (as this isn't some sort of > twister wackiness). So I'm looking into good, low effort deck > shuffling tech. ... > -Repo Man: Pros: Cheap at 1 blood. Can theoretically block something > in a pinch or take weird actions if need be. Can take the shuffle > action every turn at +2 stealth. Cons: Someone might steal him. I > don't use vehicles in the deck, which isn't really a con, so much. Repo man also untaps you at the end of the turn when you recruit him (although I almost always forget). Totally worth it. Throw in 2 or 3, and if someone steals him, contest. Sounds like you have the bloat to win a contestion. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Do you have Crusades in the deck? If so, could throw in a few Reinforcements. They're one-shot only, but not only to they shuffle the deck, but they also put even more cards back in... [ quoted text not captured ]

From the title, I thought you were looking for something like this: http://www.amazon.com/EXCALIBUR%C2%AE-PRO-SHUFFLE-CARD-SHUFFLER/dp/B000BY94Z2 best - chris

On Dec 14, 8:54 pm, Salem <kella...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Do you have Crusades in the deck? If so, could throw in a few > Reinforcements. They're one-shot only, but not only to they shuffle the > deck, but they also put even more cards back in... Yeah, considered that, but with only a one time shuffle, less handy. I'm liking Repo Man more and more. I mean, he can commit crimes! Like get sushi! And not pay! -Peter

Salem wrote: > Repo man also untaps you at the end of the turn when you recruit > him (although I almost always forget). You can't forget. It's mandatory to untap. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html Please attend my qualifier! http://members.cox.net/vtesinlv/index.htm

On Dec 14, 11:07 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > You can't forget. It's mandatory to untap. And yet if you *do* forget, you don't untap. And if you remember later in the game, are you going to get to get a retroactive untap? Unlikely... -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Very likely. Or some other remedy to equalize the situation (but untapping being by far the most obvious remedy).

On Dec 15, 6:12 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Very likely. > > Or some other remedy to equalize the situation (but untapping being by far the > most obvious remedy). Ok. On turn 3, I recruit a Repo Man. I forget to untap at the end of the turn. No one else notices that I should untap at the end of the turn. On turn 5, while reading Repo Man, I notice that I was supposed to untap, which I didn't do before. What is the appropriate action to take? Give my minion a retoractive untap at the end of turn 5? Do nothing? Sure, if on turn 3, I recruit a Repo Man, and forget to untap, and before it is my next turn, someone notices that I didn't untap, untapping is an easy and reasonable action to take to remedy the situation. But if has become a new one of my turns, and I have already untapped said minion, there is no way to fix the issue. -Peter

On 12/15/09 9:49 , Peter D Bakija wrote: > On Dec 15, 6:12 am, LSJ<vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Very likely. >> >> Or some other remedy to equalize the situation (but untapping being by far the >> most obvious remedy). > > Ok. On turn 3, I recruit a Repo Man. I forget to untap at the end of > the turn. No one else notices that I should untap at the end of the > turn. On turn 5, while reading Repo Man, I notice that I was supposed > to untap, which I didn't do before. What is the appropriate action to > take? Give my minion a retoractive untap at the end of turn 5? Do > nothing? Ah. Yeah, if you introduce a very long period between the illegal activity and the noticing of it, it becomes harder, sure. Esp. if failing to untap is not noticed until after a subsequent untapping (at which point the omitted untapping becomes redundant). But that's unlikely in itself. And self-correcting (upon reaching the untap phase and finally untapping the card). > Sure, if on turn 3, I recruit a Repo Man, and forget to untap, and > before it is my next turn, someone notices that I didn't untap, > untapping is an easy and reasonable action to take to remedy the > situation. But if has become a new one of my turns, and I have already > untapped said minion, there is no way to fix the issue. Except that it is thus fixed.

On Dec 15, 10:12 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Ah. Yeah, if you introduce a very long period between the illegal activity and > the noticing of it, it becomes harder, sure. Esp. if failing to untap is not > noticed until after a subsequent untapping (at which point the omitted untapping > becomes redundant). That's why I said "unlikely". If someone forgets to untap from recruiting a Repo Man (or whatever), and then notices before their next untap phase, there is an easy and obvious fix. Untap that minion. Problem solved. If someone forgets to untap from recruiting a Repo Man and then notices after their next untap phase, there is no way to fix the error that isn't potentially advantageous (i.e. "Ooh. I forgot to untap last turn when it didn't matter. I'll take that untap now, when I suddenly notice that I'm about to be ousted...") > But that's unlikely in itself. And self-correcting (upon reaching the untap > phase and finally untapping the card). What is unlikely--that someone wouldn't notice that they are supposed to untap when they play Repo Man? That strikes me as a highly likely result of playing Repo Man. The card has a lot of words, and doesn't see a lot of play. It is easy to either not realize that the card provides that ability or just forget to do so. And if no one notices till after your next untap phase, well, there is no fix to be had. -Peter

On 12/15/09 12:11 , Peter D Bakija wrote: > On Dec 15, 10:12 am, LSJ<vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> Ah. Yeah, if you introduce a very long period between the illegal activity and >> the noticing of it, it becomes harder, sure. Esp. if failing to untap is not >> noticed until after a subsequent untapping (at which point the omitted untapping >> becomes redundant). > > That's why I said "unlikely". Um. OK. I was addressing the common case (catching it before your next untap

On Dec 15, 1:10 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Um. OK. I was addressing the common case (catching it before your next untap Fair enough. See, I was addressing the (at least in my opinion) just as likely case of not catching it till after your next untap. Just mostly 'cause Kevin was like "you can't not untap, as it is mandatory", and in the case of Repo Man, it seems perfectly likely that someone will miss that until after it is too late to do anything about it. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually, here it's mostly the untap phase when i remember. and say 'crap'. if it's, say, my predator's turn, and he looks at me and sees my vampires are tapped out, and thus declares a bleed for 6, i feel rather bad then to go looking through my hand for an untap, and then realise the repo man should've untapped me, and then do it then. seems like 'dirty' play to me. because if i was a jerk and intentionally not untapping to lure my predator into bleeding when he shouldn't (ie: cheating), that's the kind of thing i'd expect. So i'd usually just 'correct' it by untapping my vampire *after* the current action was concluded, or something. So i still get my untap, and my predator still gets to make decisions on his actions based on what the play state looks like, rather than being penalised for my mis-representation. even though technically it's everyone's job to ensure mandatory effects occur, i'd still put more of the burden for them on the methuselah who played the card. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 12/16/09 1:53 , Salem wrote: > LSJ wrote: >> On 12/15/09 12:11 , Peter D Bakija wrote: >>> On Dec 15, 10:12 am, LSJ<vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >>>> Ah. Yeah, if you introduce a very long period between the illegal >>>> activity and >>>> the noticing of it, it becomes harder, sure. Esp. if failing to >>>> untap is not >>>> noticed until after a subsequent untapping (at which point the >>>> omitted untapping >>>> becomes redundant). >>> >>> That's why I said "unlikely". >> >> Um. OK. I was addressing the common case (catching it before your next >> untap > > Actually, here it's mostly the untap phase when i remember. and say 'crap'. Fine. So you untap him. Remedy applied. > if it's, say, my predator's turn, and he looks at me and sees my > vampires are tapped out, and thus declares a bleed for 6, i feel rather > bad then to go looking through my hand for an untap, and then realise > the repo man should've untapped me, and then do it then. Of course you don't just "do it then". You point out to the table the problem. Then the table (or the judge) applies a remedy. In this case it is likely the rewinding of that bleed declaraton and the untapping of the Repo Man. And, as you add more details to show how this remedy may occasionally be sub-optimal, adjust the remedy to match. > seems like > 'dirty' play to me. because if i was a jerk and intentionally not > untapping to lure my predator into bleeding when he shouldn't (ie: > cheating), that's the kind of thing i'd expect. So i'd usually just > 'correct' it by untapping my vampire *after* the current action was > concluded, or something. Also fine, assuming the table/judge concurs that that is the proper remedy. > So i still get my untap, and my predator still > gets to make decisions on his actions based on what the play state looks > like, rather than being penalised for my mis-representation. even though > technically it's everyone's job to ensure mandatory effects occur, i'd > still put more of the burden for them on the methuselah who played the > card. Yes, many players would. But the game does not.

On Dec 12, 9:25 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > -Repo Man: Pros: Cheap at 1 blood. Can theoretically block something > in a pinch or take weird actions if need be. Can take the shuffle > action every turn at +2 stealth. Cons: Someone might steal him. I > don't use vehicles in the deck, which isn't really a con, so much. So I ended up using Repo Man (and putting in a Sport Bike, just so an early Repo Man isn't completely useless), and it seemed like it worked well. I mean, granted, I won the game right before I started to Repo shuffle my deck every turn (I already had, like, 8 turns of WMO cards on the bottom of my deck), but in theory, I was all set up and good to go. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Please show us this winning Bakija deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 19 joulu, 16:08, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > So I ended up using Repo Man (and putting in a Sport Bike, just so an > early Repo Man isn't completely useless), and it seemed like it worked > well. I mean, granted, I won the game right before I started to Repo > shuffle my deck every turn (I already had, like, 8 turns of WMO cards > on the bottom of my deck), but in theory, I was all set up and good to > go. > > -Peter Have you considered something like 2x Summoning 1x Carlton 1x Repo Man (1x Mylan) 2x Abbot 2x Sport Bike? That should make a very respectable and easy bleed defense for a clan known for having no bleed defense at all.

On Dec 19, 2:37 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Please show us this winning Bakija deck. Really? Ok... After a bit of futzing after last night's game, it currently looks like this: "Well. That Was Certainly Unexpected." 1x Commander Sela (6) PRE, cel 1x Julian Sanders (6) CEL, PRE 2x Rigby (5) CEL, PRE 1x Dodd (5) CEL, pre 2x Victor Tolliver (4) CEL 1x Evangeline (4) cel, pre 2x Sarah Brando (3) CEL 1x Jacob Bragg (3) cel 1x Frederick the Weak (2) pre 4x Blood Doll 2x Gang Territory 1x Waste Management Operation 1x Fame 1x Powerbase: Madrid 1x Dreams 1x Black Forest Base 1x Storage Annex 6x Con Boon 4x Dogs of War 2x Perpetual Care 1x Crusade: Toronto 1x Crusade: Barcelona 1x Crusade: Rome 1x Crusade: Berlin 6x Unexpected Coalition 2x Bewitching Oration 4x Games of Instinct 4x Baseball Bat 1x Sport Bike 1x Repo Man 4x Enchant Kindred 8x Weighted Walking Stick 8x Blur 6x Side Strike 4x Sideslip 4x Pursuit 4x Resist Earth's Grasp 6x Taste of Vitae I'd never claim it is a super Tier 1 winning deck or anything, but has been surprisingly effective in casual games for the last couple weeks, winning, like, 3 of the 4 (4 or 5 player) games I've played it in so far. Probably due to seating more than anything else, and having the right technology at the right time (my buddy Ben is playing a Gangrel poke deck a lot recently, and having a deck that is full of dodges and 1 point of damage prevention certainly helps). In the various tweaks, I had a Sword of Judgement in for a while, figuring that if I have it on a Blood Doll, and avoid paying for a Blur twice, it pays for itself. But really, it wasn't ever more effective than a Bat, so I just put the 4th Bat back in. I like the Bats (when they could be things like Ivory Bow or Argent Baton) 'cause in the deck with no untap, the untap is actually fairly handy. I tired out the Fleetness for the rush, but the 1 blood cost was more of a pain than it was worth, even for the +1 stealth and occasional +1 stealth bleed (go Commander Sela and your +1 bleed! Woo!) so I swapped in the Games of Instinct, which should work out ok in the deck (and might justify removing a couple Tastes). Storage Annex is in there to hold an early Perpetual Care or something. Probably will have a lot of trouble with a super aggressive early predator (although few decks don't), and sometimes can get totally shut down by heavy table votes (or someone else playing !Brujah I'd imagine, but that hasn't happened yet :-) I'm not totally sold on Commander Sela, there, as a 6 cap with PRE, cel in a deck that is mostly Celerity based, but she is a Bishop, gets +1 bleed, and has a slightly less obtuse disadvantage than Rigby, so she tends to actually work out ok (at some point, she was Amelia, who might actually be just better, but I like the +1 bleed. -Peter

On Dec 19, 3:24 pm, suoli <suoliruse...@gmail.com> wrote: > Have you considered something like > 2x Summoning > 1x Carlton > 1x Repo Man > (1x Mylan) > 2x Abbot > 2x Sport Bike? Huh. That isn't a bad idea at all. But so far, between Con Boons and rush, the deck does ok vs not super aggressive bleed predators, and probably would still get killed by such a deck with the above tech. But I like the theory. And use of Summoning :-) -Peter

On Dec 19, 4:06 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > I'm not totally sold on Commander Sela, there, as a 6 cap with PRE, > cel in a deck that is mostly Celerity based, but she is a Bishop, gets > +1 bleed, and has a slightly less obtuse disadvantage than Rigby, Upon further paying attention, Sela actually has a slightly less obtuse *advantage* that could actually do something in this deck (although why I'd turn her into an Archbishop instead of someone else so I get to keep her a Bishop is beyond me. Unless my prey has 5 Bishops in play, each with only 1 blood...) And hey--here is something: is there a card that makes someone into a Bishop? I don't think there is, and can't find one (Blood Bath is close), but might be missing something. -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Tobias Smith is all I can find so Tobias Sela and setties? sounds...good? Matt

Peter D Bakija wrote: > And hey--here is something: > is there a card that makes someone into a Bishop? /SLAP

On Dec 19, 7:34 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > /SLAP Well, ya know, not so I can make my prey a Bishop and then make them burn a blood with Sela (although now that I think of it, that sounds awesome!), but really, I just thought of it as a potential way to get some easy votes--if there was, like, a non vote action to make someone a Bishop? That might be worth using. But then, I guess, again, Blood Bath is pretty much the same thing. And that never seems like a good idea to use... -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] Use eight Crusades instead of four. You'll gain votes better that way. Also, maybe look at Perfect Paragon? Perfect Paragon Action Modifier 1 blood Presence [pre] Only usable during a referendum. This vampire gains 3 votes. [PRE] Allies and younger vampires get -1 intercept when attempting to block this action. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Dec 19, 11:48 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Use eight Crusades instead of four. You'll gain votes better that way. Well, yeah, there is that. I wasn't real, like, excited about making someone a Bishop or anything, but at some point, I was like "Huh. I wonder if there is a card that is an easy, non vote action to become a Bishop?" and discovered that apparently no such card existed. If there was an action to become a Bishop that *didn't* require an Archbishop to take it, it might be handy. Something like: "Run for Class President!: 1 blood. Requires a Sabbat vampire of capacity 4 or greater. +1 stealth. Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire is a Bishop." That might be a, if not exactly good, reasonably playable card. Of Noble Blood isn't good, as it requires you to be 6+ but more importantly, it requires you to have a Primogen to make other mid+ minions Primogens. Which is a lot of work for not much gain. If someone smallish could make themselves into a Bishop (or Primogen, for that matter), that might be a reasonably useful card that would see some play. But then, that is not hugely different than Agate Talisman, and that isn't that good. But having a 1 permanent vote title is considerably better than having an equipment to tap for 1 vote most of the time . > Also, maybe look at Perfect Paragon? Yeah, I considered that, but not a lot of PRE (4 minions in the crypt?) and the superior isn't going to work so well when the 4 minions with PRE aren't real big. Probably just a couple Bewitchings are the way to go. But I certainly considered them :-) -Peter

On Dec 20, 8:42 am, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote: > On Dec 19, 11:48 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > > > Use eight Crusades instead of four. You'll gain votes better that way. > > Well, yeah, there is that. I wasn't real, like, excited about making > someone a Bishop or anything, but at some point, I was like "Huh. I > wonder if there is a card that is an easy, non vote action to become a > Bishop?" and discovered that apparently no such card existed. Tobias Smith is that action.

[ quoted text not captured ] Scalpel Tongue, you goofballs! It was made for this deck.

On Dec 20, 10:58 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote: > Tobias Smith is that action. Sure. But only if you are playing Tobias Smith. Really? That is the only way in the game to become a Bishop? Every Bishop in the universe was hanging out with Tobias Smith at some point? Again, I'm not, like, wildly hung up on having ways to become a Bishop. But you'd think there would have been one by now. And if it was an action a minion could take by themselves, and not have an unwieldy capacity restriction, it might actually be a goodish card. -Peter

On Dec 20, 11:39 am, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote: > Scalpel Tongue, you goofballs! It was made for this deck. Also true--I probably should have those in there instead of the Bewitchings. But the blood cost is, uh, yeah, ok. Negligible. But then Fredrick couldn't play any cards? (off to put in Scalpel Tongue...) -Peter

[ quoted text not captured ] But why would you want to be a bishop, except for the 1 vote? Not too many cards key off that (none?). It would be good if it also granted something else, like burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept vs (D) actions. best - chris

librarian wrote: > Peter D Bakija wrote: >> Really? That is the only way in the game to become a Bishop? Every >> Bishop in the universe was hanging out with Tobias Smith at some >> point? >> >> Again, I'm not, like, wildly hung up on having ways to become a >> Bishop. But you'd think there would have been one by now. And if it >> was an action a minion could take by themselves, and not have an >> unwieldy capacity restriction, it might actually be a goodish card. >> > > > But why would you want to be a bishop, except for the 1 vote? Not too > many cards key off that (none?). ...templar? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009, Peter D Bakija wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] It's really the superior choice because it's playable as a reaction and can tell Legendary Cardinal Orlando to shut it.