Thoughts Betrayed vs Muddled Vampire Hunter

Scenario: Samson has 2 blood, and is attacked by a Muddled Vampire Hunter. He plays Thoughts Betrayed at basic, and then strikes with his hands. He gets hit with First Strike by the Muddled Vampire Hunter and goes to torpor. Does the Muddled Vampire Hunter get hit by the damage from the Thoughts Betrayed? Why or Why not? Cheers, Andrew. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/

Scenario: Samson has 2 blood, and is attacked by a Muddled Vampire Hunter. He plays Thoughts Betrayed at basic, and then strikes with his hands. He gets hit by the Muddled Vampire Hunter and goes to torpor. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91rvt3$art$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, hel...@my-deja.com wrote: > Scenario: > > Samson has 2 blood, and is attacked by a Muddled Vampire Hunter. > > He plays Thoughts Betrayed at basic, and then strikes with his hands. > > He gets hit with First Strike by the Muddled Vampire Hunter and > goes to torpor. > > Does the Muddled Vampire Hunter get hit by the damage from > the Thoughts Betrayed? No. Card Text: Thoughts Betrayed [DS, SW] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 2 blood Discipline: Dominate Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Opposing minion takes an additional 1 damage in the first round of combat during strike resolution. (S) Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Opposing minion cannot play any strike cards for the duration of this combat. > Why or Why not? The combat never reaches the strike resolution phase for Samson's strike, so the damage will never be done. The combat ends when Samson goes to torpor during the resolution of the Muddled Vampire Hunter's strike. Same thing if Muddles is attacking a vampire with a retainer that does damage, if the vampire goes to torpor because of the first strike, the retainer will do no damage that combat. See the Rules Team Ruling from 11/09/1994 quoted here: "The damage is done during normal damage dealing, so a Combat Ends will stop it, as will sending its controller to torpor during first strike. [RTR 19941109]" This was issued for the damage from Wolf Companion, and all retainers follow it. Thoughts Betrayed does damage at the same time retainers do their damage, so the damage will not be done if a SCE happens, or if the playing vampire goes to torpor during first strike. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://lasombra.tripod.com http://legbiter.tripod.com http://vekn_clans.tripod.com [ quoted text not captured ]

> > The combat never reaches the strike resolution phase > for Samson's strike, so the damage will never be done. > The combat ends when Samson goes to torpor during the > resolution of the Muddled Vampire Hunter's strike. > > Same thing if Muddles is attacking a vampire with a retainer > that does damage, if the vampire goes to torpor because of > the first strike, the retainer will do no damage that combat. > Thanks for that. So, First Strike sets up two strike resolution phases, rather than just ordering which strike gets resolved first in the strike resolution phase? Is this spelt out somewhere? Cheers, Andrew. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] First Strike doesn't set up two resolution phases. It merely "sets up" a strike that will resolve before normal strikes (and, therefore, before effects that occurs during normal strike resolution). If you like, you can treat the time in which First Strikes resolve as a separate strike resolution phase, but that phase is always there (and usually skipped). First Strike is described on page 41. The fact that "during strike resolution" effects occur during normal strike resolution (as opposed to first strike resolution) is not spelled out there, however. It is merely assumed as a default. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > First Strike is described on page 41. > The fact that "during strike resolution" effects occur during > normal strike resolution (as opposed to first strike resolution) > is not spelled out there, however. It is merely assumed as a > default. As you know, one of my local players argued with me over this point and subsequently talked to you about it. As you also know, there is no such thing as a safe assumption when arguing rules. It might be wise to list this as a clarification under Damage on the errata page. Regards, Noal -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91tmdg$lnh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Cheers. I perceive a little ambiguity in the process of strike resolutions here. If there is a seperate first strike resolution phase, then everything is clear. However, you mention that while we can treat it as if this is the case, in reality there is only one strike resolution phase. If there is only one strike resolution phase, then you would expect that effects that cause a damage during the strike resolution phase will occur regardless of whether the vampire who played the card to cause the effect is still around to resolve their actual strike or not. The damage from Thoughts Betrayed is nothing to do with the actual strike of the minion who plays it. So, even if they do not get to resolve their strike, if the (one) strike resolution phase is entered, the damage from the Thoughts Betrayed should still be in effect. Similar to the damage from Drawing out the Beast, which takes effect at the end of the round regardless of whether the minion who played the card is in torpor or not. Thanks to the previous message in the thread, I realise that you have ruled on the damage from retainers like Wolf Companion not being effective if the retaining minion is sent to torpor with first strike, however, there is more of an intuitive link between the timing of the strike of the retaining minion and the damage of the wolf companion, than there is between the strike of the minion and the damage from Thoughts Betrayed. I hate resorting to words like "intuitive link", but there are a few assumptions going on here. Any clarifications would be appreciated. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <91s31m$d81$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Card Text: > Thoughts Betrayed [DS, SW] > Cardtype: Combat > Cost: 2 blood > Discipline: Dominate > Only usable before range is determined on the first round. Opposing > minion takes an additional 1 damage in the first round of combat > during strike resolution. (S) Only usable before range is determined > on the first round. Opposing minion cannot play any strike cards for > the duration of this combat. While we're on the subject, this is something I forgot to ask about after the non-tourney last weekend. Someone actually played Thoughts Betrayed at inferior. Then Blurred. I suspect that TB only does damage during the first strike resolution phase, but it is conceivable that it does damage during all of them. Little help? Xian -- But rain falls down and I feel cold A cold that sleeps within my heart It tears the earth and sun apart --New Order, "Shellshock" [ quoted text not captured ]

xi...@waste.org (Xian) wrote: > Someone actually played Thoughts Betrayed at inferior. Then Blurred. > I suspect that TB only does damage during the first strike resolution > phase, but it is conceivable that it does damage during all of them. Just the first one. cf. Carrion Crows. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

hel...@my-deja.com wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > If you like, you can treat the time in which First Strikes > > resolve as a separate strike resolution phase, but that phase > > is always there (and usually skipped). > > Cheers. I perceive a little ambiguity in the process of strike > resolutions here. If there is a seperate first strike resolution > phase, then everything is clear. However, you mention that while we > can treat it as if this is the case, in reality there is only one > strike resolution phase. OK. Then there is a separate first strike resolution phase. > Similar to the damage from Drawing out the Beast, which takes > effect at the end of the round regardless of whether the minion > who played the card is in torpor or not. Old style DotB, yes. DotB's damage is now done during the press step and will not occur if someone goes to torpor during strike resolution. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]