Hy, after the recent RT rulings i would like to know:
1) If minion A ends combat striking with a smoke grenade, and minion
B then plays psyche (or telepatic tracking, coordinate attacks etc.) is the
smoke grenade burned?
2) Left for dead, Legacy of Power, Mariel Lady Thunder, Shackles of Enkidu,
effects "after combat ends" are now "interrupted" (canceled) by psyche (and
psyche - like) effects ?
3) (need confirmation here) psyche, telepathic tracking (and similar combat
effects),
can now "interrupt" (canceling them) blissful agony, siren's lure and
Illusion of the Kindred; is that right ?
4) Minion A (acting) is (succesfully) blocked by minion B.
Combat then ends, but minion A plays psyche; at this point, can minion B
play now
Fata Amria on minion A ?(before combat starts again)
Thanks in advance
Emiliano, v:ekn Prince of Rome
"tetragrammaton" asked:
> 1) If minion A ends combat striking with a smoke grenade, and minion
> B then plays psyche (or telepatic tracking, coordinate attacks etc.) is the
> smoke grenade burned?
Yes.
The strike must resolve for the combat to end, so the grenade
has to be burned.
> 2) Left for dead, Legacy of Power, Mariel Lady Thunder, Shackles of Enkidu,
> effects "after combat ends" are now "interrupted" (canceled) by psyche (and
> psyche - like) effects ?
Yes.
> 3) psyche, telepathic tracking (and similar combat effects),> can now "interrupt" (canceling them) blissful agony, siren's lure
> and Illusion of the Kindred; is that right ?
Yes and no.
Siren's lure should not be on your list.
"If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later (e.g.,
Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's combat), then the
effect will not be canceled by "interruptions" (extending
combat/starting
combat/etc.)."
> 4) Minion A (acting) is (succesfully) blocked by minion B.
> Combat then ends, but minion A plays psyche; at this point,
> can minion B play now Fata Amria on minion A ?
> (before combat starts again)
Not as a reaction card, no.
As an strike card in the next combat, yes.
Fata Amria as a reaction card requires an unblocked action.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
http://www.TheLasombra.com
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
"The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:af1521fc3b3da00cf87...@mygate.mailgate.org...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yep...true, thanks....
Emiliano
<snip>
The Lasombra wrote:
> "tetragrammaton" asked:> > 2) Left for dead, Legacy of Power, Mariel Lady Thunder, Shackles of Enkidu,
> > effects "after combat ends" are now "interrupted" (canceled) by psyche (and
> > psyche - like) effects ?
>
> Yes.
Sure, but note that Psyche! (and other combat-starters) cannot be used
against a Left for Dead ally, since he isn't ready at the time.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CDA6AB6...@white-wolf.com...
> The Lasombra wrote:
> > "tetragrammaton" asked:
> > > 2) Left for dead, Legacy of Power, Mariel Lady Thunder, Shackles of
Enkidu,
> > > effects "after combat ends" are now "interrupted" (canceled) by psyche
(and
> > > psyche - like) effects ?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Sure, but note that Psyche! (and other combat-starters) cannot be used
> against a Left for Dead ally, since he isn't ready at the time.
>
Umm... another contradiction of your BBA ruling. How can the BBA burn when
combat ends if it isn't ready when combat ends?
"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:sDdH8.91134$UV4.157521@rwcrnsc54...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I don't know if it's a good idea to get into this, but...
When BBA burns in combat, combat ends. Because combat always
ends when one of the minions involved is no longer ready.
However, there is always, when combat ends, a "combat is
ending" window where "when combat ends" cards can be played.
Left for Dead would be played here.
If Left for Dead is played there, it creates another "combat
ends now" effect, in which "when combat ends" cards can
(again) be played. Psyche! could be played here, except that
the BBA is already "not ready" because that's how combat was
ending the first time. Left for Dead is trying to make BBA
ready again, but it hasn't done that yet, because it is (or
would be) being interrupted at the "combat ends" bit by
Psyche!.
Does that make sense at all? "When combat ends" is kind of
a confusing timing area because "combat ends" sort of wants
to be instantaneous, but can't be because there are cards
that need to be played "when combat is ending". (all IMO
and in my interpretations, of course; all of what I just
wrote is based on what I think I know about these cards/
rules without pondering them again for too long.)
Why BBA can't be saved by Left for Dead is similar: BBA
burns in combat. LfD is played "as BBA is burning" to
try to keep it from burning. LfD ends combat "again".
BBA burns "again" (in the "combat is ending" timing window
of LfD, which is sort of nested in the "combat is ending"
timing window of BBA's original burning-due-to-damage).
LfD won't make it far enough to succeed in saving BBA
because BBA got reburned before it could save BBA from the
original burning.
Again, not LSJ, but that's what I think he's been saying
happens there.
Josh
too... many... effects... head... spinning...
"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aclkjq$quqig$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de...
>
> Why BBA can't be saved by Left for Dead is similar: BBA
> burns in combat. LfD is played "as BBA is burning" to
> try to keep it from burning. LfD ends combat "again".
> BBA burns "again" (in the "combat is ending" timing window
> of LfD, which is sort of nested in the "combat is ending"
> timing window of BBA's original burning-due-to-damage).
> LfD won't make it far enough to succeed in saving BBA
> because BBA got reburned before it could save BBA from the
> original burning.
>
Yes, but BBA burning will not prevent the rest of LfD from resolving. Note
that there is no rule that says anything about cancelling the rest of a card's
effects once played. That only happens if combat is restarted, which it hasn't
been yet. So, therefore, LfD will continue on to it's final effect, which is
to say "that ally is not burned".
Furthermore... you and LSJ are postulating some state where an ally is neither
ready nor in the ash heap. Such a state does not exist. As long as the ally
was not recruited this turn (as an action), it is ready. If it is not ready,
it is burned, and burned cards do not activate their game text. Even if the
game text could be activated, though, it wouldn't be changing its state... it
would still be not ready, so nothing has really changed.
So, when LfD is played, either the ally is ready, or it is not ready. If it
only works while the ally is ready, then you could play Psyche! in the middle
of it. If it only works when the ally is not ready, then BBA can come back to
life.
Really, I don't even play with BBA, and probably never will, but LSJ seems to
be making rulings completely at random these days. And he's explained this one
3 different, mutually exclusive ways. Since it's impossible for things to work
all 3 ways that he explained, it leads me to believe that even *he* doesn't
understand his rulings.
Chris Berger wrote:
> Furthermore... you and LSJ are postulating some state where an ally is neither
> ready nor in the ash heap. Such a state does not exist.
Yes, it does.
Similarly a vampire "on his way to torpor" is not ready and not yet in torpor.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3CEE83E9...@white-wolf.com...
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > Furthermore... you and LSJ are postulating some state where an ally is
neither
> > ready nor in the ash heap. Such a state does not exist.
>
> Yes, it does.
> Similarly a vampire "on his way to torpor" is not ready and not yet in
torpor.
>
Ok, so we got a "being burned" and a "going to torpor" state,
that open a window in which some effects can be played/used.
But a vampire in such state ("way to torpor" "being urned")
can use effects normally usable/playable by a ready minion and viceversa?
Say, jalal sayad (akram) can use his special when he suffer a rotschreck,
but can he do that also against a minion who is in such "being burned" "way
to torpor" state?
More, the timing in which jalal and akram ability is used, is the same one
in which psyche/telepatic tracking/coordinate attack is played ?
I'm asking this because psyche reads "at the end of combat", and
jalal/akram ability reads "after completing combat".
Thanks in advance
Emiliano, v:ekn prince of Rome
> --
tetragrammaton wrote:
> But a vampire in such state ("way to torpor" "being urned")
> can use effects normally usable/playable by a ready minion and viceversa?
No.
> Say, jalal sayad (akram) can use his special when he suffer a rotschreck,
> but can he do that also against a minion who is in such "being burned" "way
> to torpor" state?
No.
> More, the timing in which jalal and akram ability is used, is the same one
> in which psyche/telepatic tracking/coordinate attack is played ?
Yes/No/Yes.
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3CF28CD1...@white-wolf.com>...
> tetragrammaton wrote:
> > But a vampire in such state ("way to torpor" "being urned")
> > can use effects normally usable/playable by a ready minion and viceversa?
>
> No.
>
Hi LSJ,
So will the new Camarilla rule booklet contain all of these
"step-by-step" breakdowns of these different phases which seem to be
popping up now? Recruiting new players into the game is never easy
and frustrating players with new rulings that are not posted (except
here in the newsgroup - buried), or available for easy download or
even written for the general masses is becoming a problem. The
preception has come back to me that rulings are becoming arbitrary
even if it is not.
Can or will you be addressing this issue in the very near future?
> > Say, jalal sayad (akram) can use his special when he suffer a rotschreck,
> > but can he do that also against a minion who is in such "being burned" "way
> > to torpor" state?
>
> No.
>
And this is due to a vampire (or should it be minion as allies can now
go to torpor as well?) being hit with Rotschreck goes to torpor after
combat ends while every other instance of vampires (minions?) going to
torpor is within combat, correct?
Which brings up another question, are allies who play discipline card
effects that bring them up to vampire status temporarily vulnerable to
Rotschreck?
> > More, the timing in which jalal and akram ability is used, is the same one
> > in which psyche/telepatic tracking/coordinate attack is played ?
>
> Yes/No/Yes.
Why not Telepathic Tracking?
Additionally, is the ruling concerning Fast Reaction being able to
"interrupt" a Rotschreck still valid?
Thanks
Michael Eichler
Prince of Ramstein
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3CF28CD1...@white-wolf.com...
<snip>
> > More, the timing in which jalal and akram ability is used, is the same
one
> > in which psyche/telepatic tracking/coordinate attack is played ?
>
So:
"at the end of a combat"
(psyche)
and
"after completing combat"
(jalal)
represent the same time segment?
could be not worded in the same way (for better simplicity) ?
Thanks
EMiliano
> --
Ramsteiner wrote:
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message> Which brings up another question, are allies who play discipline card
> effects that bring them up to vampire status temporarily vulnerable to
> Rotschreck?
Still no. See the thread(s) revolving around the topic.
> > > More, the timing in which jalal and akram ability is used, is the same one
> > > in which psyche/telepatic tracking/coordinate attack is played ?
> >
> > Yes/No/Yes.
>
> Why not Telepathic Tracking?
Card text. It is played in combat, not after.
> Additionally, is the ruling concerning Fast Reaction being able to
> "interrupt" a Rotschreck still valid?
Yes.
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3CF36E5F...@white-wolf.com>...
<snip>
> > > > More, the timing in which jalal and akram ability is used, is the same one
> > > > in which psyche/telepatic tracking/coordinate attack is played ?
> > >
> > > Yes/No/Yes.
> >
> > Why not Telepathic Tracking?
>
> Card text. It is played in combat, not after.
Ok. You got me stumped on this one. As near as I can tell, all three
of the above cards are combat cards and are played during the combat
phase, otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to play them. Correct?
The only difference between the cards I have noticed, text-wise, is
Psyche! and Coordinate Attacks are to be played right at the end of
combat. Telepathic Tracking seems to fall within the same timing
criteria as Psyche! and Coordinate Attacks, but it is worded different
with "...Only usable when both combatants are still ready and combat
is about to end...". The wording in Psyche! states "...Only usable at
the end of combat when both combatants are still ready..." while CA
states "...Only usable at the end of combat if the minion opposing the
Blood Brother you control is still ready...".
If the only difference is "at the end of combat" and "combat is about
to end", can you provide a listing of the phases, in order, that you
are reading from? And will this break out be included in the new
Camarilla rule book when it comes out so all of us can read off the
same sheet of music?
[ quoted text not captured ]
Ramsteiner wrote:
>
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3CF36E5F...@white-wolf.com>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > > More, the timing in which jalal and akram ability is used, is the same one
> > > > > in which psyche/telepatic tracking/coordinate attack is played ?
> > > >
> > > > Yes/No/Yes.
> > >
> > > Why not Telepathic Tracking?
> >
> > Card text. It is played in combat, not after.
>
> Ok. You got me stumped on this one. As near as I can tell, all three
> of the above cards are combat cards and are played during the combat
> phase, otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to play them. Correct?
No. TT is played in combat by card text, as stated above.
Psyche! and CA are played after (the latter explicitly; the former
by [RTR 28-SEP-1998])
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3CF4BFE5...@white-wolf.com...
> Ramsteiner wrote:
> >
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:<3CF36E5F...@white-wolf.com>...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > > > More, the timing in which jalal and akram ability is used, is
the same one
> > > > > > in which psyche/telepatic tracking/coordinate attack is played ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes/No/Yes.
> > > >
> > > > Why not Telepathic Tracking?
> > >
> > > Card text. It is played in combat, not after.
> >
> > Ok. You got me stumped on this one. As near as I can tell, all three
> > of the above cards are combat cards and are played during the combat
> > phase, otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to play them. Correct?
>
> No. TT is played in combat by card text, as stated above.
> Psyche! and CA are played after (the latter explicitly; the former
> by [RTR 28-SEP-1998])
Uhm, it's somewhat counter-intuitive that a "combat" card (actually psyche
and coordinate atks) is played *after" combat.....
anyway,
just asking again here (since i did'n get answered elsewhere on this thread)
:
"at the end of a combat"
(psyche)
and
"after completing combat"
(jalal sayad, akram )
represent the same time segment?
if so, could be not worded in the same way (for better simplicity) ?
Thanks in advance
Emiliano
>
> --
tetragrammaton wrote:
> Uhm, it's somewhat counter-intuitive that a "combat" card (actually psyche
> and coordinate atks) is played *after" combat.....
Correct.
> anyway,
> just asking again here (since i did'n get answered elsewhere on this thread)
> :
>
> "at the end of a combat"
> (psyche)
> and
> "after completing combat"
> (jalal sayad, akram )
>
> represent the same time segment?
Psyche! has been ruled to be played after combat, as stated many times
already, yes.
After combat has the same timing as after combat, yes.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3CF4EA34...@white-wolf.com...
> tetragrammaton wrote:
> > Uhm, it's somewhat counter-intuitive that a "combat" card (actually
psyche
> > and coordinate atks) is played *after" combat.....
>
> Correct.
>
Yes, correct, but counter-intuitive :)
Could be not changed someway this ?
> > anyway,
> > just asking again here (since i did'n get answered elsewhere on this
thread)
> > :
> >
> > "at the end of a combat"
> > (psyche)
> > and
> > "after completing combat"
> > (jalal sayad, akram )
> >
> > represent the same time segment?
>
> Psyche! has been ruled to be played after combat, as stated many times
> already, yes.
> After combat has the same timing as after combat, yes.
>
I'm trying to say that, if those effects (jalal sayad = psyche etc) are to
be played in the same
time window, they could be worded the *same* way,
and not differently (as they are now).
actually, we got 2 templates meaning the same thing (= to be played after
combat)
"at the end of combat"
and
"after completing combat"
one of the two could be changed to read the same as the "other".
just my thought
Emiliano
>
> --
"tetragrammaton" <nospam_a...@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:<IM7J8.27632$8x3.5...@twister1.libero.it>...
> > > tetragrammaton wrote:
> > > Uhm, it's somewhat counter-intuitive that a "combat"
> > > card (actually psyche and coordinate atks) is
> > > played *after" combat.....
[LSJ]
> > Correct.
> >
[tetragrammaton]
> Yes, correct, but counter-intuitive :)
> Could be not changed someway this ?
Well, they could have been written as "play this card as either a
reaction card [like Fast Reaction] or an action modifer [like Hidden
Lurker]". Like Provision of the Silsila is written (for a different
effect, obviously).
Possibly, Psyche! was written differently to Fast Reaction and Hidden
Lurker because it was thought to be the simplest way of communicating
the idea that it is played by one of the minions currently in an
ending combat, rather than another minion. Of course, that argument
doesn't hold for Coordinate Attacks. It's also a bit messy to have
action modifers and reactions that are playable after/during a combat-
although obviously not so messy that they don't exist.
As it is, they have been written the way they have been. It's not
that tricky to cope with. It's certainly more bother than it's worth
to change a card's type with an errata/clarification/ruling.
* lehrbuch
lehrbuch wrote:
> [Re: Psyche!]> Well, they could have been written as "play this card as either a
> reaction card [like Fast Reaction] or an action modifer [like Hidden
> Lurker]". Like Provision of the Silsila is written (for a different
> effect, obviously).
Note that currently, the same minion can play it more than once each
action. Action modifiers and reaction cards are a different story there.
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in
message news:<3CF61010...@white-wolf.com>...
> Note that currently, the same minion can> play [psyche!] more than once each
> action.
Good point.
Related question: by errata, a blood brother needs to be untapped to
play Coordinate Attacks. By a ruling, Psyche! is played before things
like Freak Drive and Cat's Guidance can be used to untap. Does the
Psyche! ruling apply to Coordinate Attacks?
For that matter: do all the other Psyche! rulings apply to CA?
* lehrbuch
"lehrbuch" <ri...@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:5fee5473.02053...@posting.google.com...
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in
> message news:<3CF61010...@white-wolf.com>...
> > Note that currently, the same minion can
> > play [psyche!] more than once each
> > action.
>
> Good point.
>
> Related question: by errata, a blood brother needs to be untapped to
> play Coordinate Attacks. By a ruling, Psyche! is played before things
> like Freak Drive and Cat's Guidance can be used to untap. Does the
> Psyche! ruling apply to Coordinate Attacks?
Mh, cat's guidance reads:
"Only usable by a tapped vampire *immediately* after he or she blocks (play
after combat, if any).
so, psyche is played in a time window that exist even before the
*immediately* after combat.....?
thanks
Emiliano
lehrbuch wrote:
>
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in
> message news:<3CF61010...@white-wolf.com>...
> > Note that currently, the same minion can
> > play [psyche!] more than once each
> > action.
>
> Good point.
>
> Related question: by errata, a blood brother needs to be untapped to
> play Coordinate Attacks. By a ruling, Psyche! is played before things
> like Freak Drive and Cat's Guidance can be used to untap. Does the
> Psyche! ruling apply to Coordinate Attacks?
Yes.
> For that matter: do all the other Psyche! rulings apply to CA?
As applicable, sure. If you've got a specific one in mind, let me know.
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in
message news:<3CF767D3...@white-wolf.com>...
[lehrbuch]
> > Related question: by errata, a blood brother needs to be untapped to
> > play Coordinate Attacks. By a ruling, Psyche! is played before things
> > like Freak Drive and Cat's Guidance can be used to untap. Does the
> > Psyche! ruling apply to Coordinate Attacks?
[LSJ]
> Yes.
Could a Blood Brother play Wake with Evening's Freshness in order to
play Coordinate Attacks?
I think, No, as Wake... only allows block attempts and reaction card
play "as if untapped", that is, it doesn't allow play of combat cards?
If a Blood Brother blocked a bleed action could another (tapped) Blood
Brother play a Rat's Warning (as the first combat was ending) to untap
and play Coordinate Attacks?
Thanks.
* lehrbuch
lehrbuch wrote:
> Could a Blood Brother play Wake with Evening's Freshness in order to
> play Coordinate Attacks?
>
> I think, No, as Wake... only allows block attempts and reaction card
> play "as if untapped", that is, it doesn't allow play of combat cards?
Correct.
> If a Blood Brother blocked a bleed action could another (tapped) Blood
> Brother play a Rat's Warning (as the first combat was ending) to untap
> and play Coordinate Attacks?
No. RW is only playable when you are being bled.
The BB could play it before the block (and then stand around not trying
to block while his brother blocks and enters combat), however.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:38:29 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>lehrbuch wrote:>> Could a Blood Brother play Wake with Evening's Freshness in order to
>> play Coordinate Attacks?
>>
>> I think, No, as Wake... only allows block attempts and reaction card
>> play "as if untapped", that is, it doesn't allow play of combat cards?>
>Correct.
>>> If a Blood Brother blocked a bleed action could another (tapped) Blood
>> Brother play a Rat's Warning (as the first combat was ending) to untap
>> and play Coordinate Attacks?>
>No. RW is only playable when you are being bled.
>The BB could play it before the block (and then stand around not trying
>to block while his brother blocks and enters combat), however.
>
What exactly is the rulling on un/tapped BB's playing CAttacks?
T
Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:
> What exactly is the rulling on un/tapped BB's playing CAttacks?
See the errata list or follow the thread you've joined.
The fourth-most-recent message on your References: header, for example.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <3cffae8a.158016583@news>, Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com
writes:
>What exactly is the rulling on un/tapped BB's playing CAttacks?
It requires an untapped Blood Brother of the same circle.
--
James Coupe
PGP 0x5D623D5D I am woman. Here, me raw.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
13D7E668C3695D623D5D
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CFF49B5...@white-wolf.com...
> lehrbuch wrote:> > If a Blood Brother blocked a bleed action could another (tapped) Blood
> > Brother play a Rat's Warning (as the first combat was ending) to untap
> > and play Coordinate Attacks?
>
> No. RW is only playable when you are being bled.
> The BB could play it before the block (and then stand around not trying
> to block while his brother blocks and enters combat), however.
Rat's Warning: "Only usable by a tapped vampire during a bleed
against you."
Isn't "after the block-combat" still "during a bleed (action)
against you"? The action certainly still exists, since Cat's
Guidance could be played at this point. Has it stopped being
a bleed action because it was blocked?
Josh
this is not a sig
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in
message news:<3CFF49B5...@white-wolf.com>..
[lehrbuch]
> > If a Blood Brother blocked a bleed action could another
> > (tapped) Blood Brother play a Rat's Warning (as the first
> > combat was ending) to untap and play Coordinate Attacks?
[LSJ]
> No. RW is only playable when you are being bled.
But, RW says: "Only usable by a tapped vampire *during* a bleed
against you..." and about halfway through 6.2.3 it states that an
action is not over until combat-due-to-blocking is resolved.
Does "a bleed" mean something different to "a bleed action"?
* lehrbuch
In message <5fee5473.02060...@posting.google.com>, lehrbuch
<ri...@yahoo.com> writes:
>LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in
>message news:<3CFF49B5...@white-wolf.com>..
>[lehrbuch]>> > If a Blood Brother blocked a bleed action could another
>> > (tapped) Blood Brother play a Rat's Warning (as the first
>> > combat was ending) to untap and play Coordinate Attacks?>[LSJ]>> No. RW is only playable when you are being bled.>
>But, RW says: "Only usable by a tapped vampire *during* a bleed
>against you..." and about halfway through 6.2.3 it states that an
>action is not over until combat-due-to-blocking is resolved.
However, in the circumstance at hand, the bleed has been blocked.
It is arguable that though the action is still there [6.2.3], the bleed
has been unsuccessful (barring cards like Form of Mist) and so there is
no bleed there, just a now 'empty' action (for the purposes of Freak
Drive etc.)
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
Good point.
Note that there is a difference between the bleed and the action.
cf: The action can be successful even when the bleed is not
(action unblocked, bleed resolving for 0 or less).
Rat's Warning (and similar) are not playable after the action is
blocked (unless, of course, it is subsequently continued as if
unblocked).
You can't, for example, substitute your Guard Dogs to achieve an
inferior Cats' Guidance effect after blocking.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3D009C8D...@white-wolf.com...
> Joshua Duffin wrote:> > Rat's Warning: "Only usable by a tapped vampire during a bleed
> > against you."
> >
> > Isn't "after the block-combat" still "during a bleed (action)
> > against you"? The action certainly still exists, since Cat's
> > Guidance could be played at this point. Has it stopped being
> > a bleed action because it was blocked?
>
> Good point.
>
> Note that there is a difference between the bleed and the action.
> cf: The action can be successful even when the bleed is not
> (action unblocked, bleed resolving for 0 or less).
I remember this concept existing in the past, but it doesn't
seem to be in the rules currently. Instead the rulebook just
states that a bleed for 1 or more results in the bleeding
Methuselah getting the Edge. [6.1.1]
Spying Mission still uses the "when a bleed is successful"
wording to mean "a bleed of 1 or more" but this seems to be
explained only indirectly in the rulings/errata page.
> Rat's Warning (and similar) are not playable after the action is
> blocked (unless, of course, it is subsequently continued as if
> unblocked).
But the only difference between "an action being continued as
if unblocked" and "an action that was blocked and is about
to end" is that in the first case, the action might still be
successful. A "bleed action" exists in either case, as far
as I can see. An "unsuccessful bleed action" if it was blocked,
of course, but Rat's Warning doesn't actually say the bleed
action has to be currently succeeding. (If it did, you'd be
unable to play Rat's Warning after Telepathic Countering a
bleed to 0 or less, unless the bleed amount were increased
again. I think.)
Josh
unexplicable
Joshua Duffin wrote:
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message> > Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > > Rat's Warning: "Only usable by a tapped vampire during a bleed
> > > against you."
>> > Rat's Warning (and similar) are not playable after the action is
> > blocked (unless, of course, it is subsequently continued as if
> > unblocked).> of course, but Rat's Warning doesn't actually say the bleed> action has to be currently succeeding. (If it did, you'd be
It also doesn't actually say bleed "action".
It has poor wording, you are correct.
And now it has a ruling. Or errata if you like.
Either way, it cannot be used as a Cat's Guidance (nor as a
non-blocking minion post-block untap effect). [LSJ 07-JUN-2002]
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in
message news:<3D00C462...@white-wolf.com>...
> [RW] also doesn't actually say bleed "action".> It has poor wording, you are correct.
>
> And now it has a ruling. Or errata if you like.
>
> Either way, it cannot be used as a Cat's Guidance (nor as a
> non-blocking minion post-block untap effect). [LSJ 07-JUN-2002]
Fair enough.
As an aside, perhaps, the rulebook definition of "bleed" that is given
in the glossary should be changed. The glossary currently states:
"Bleed: An action that..." This definition is a bit confusing if
"bleed" and "bleed action" are two different things.
* lehrbuch