Thoughts Betrayed Proposal

After a recent Jyhad game, several people in my playgroup were discussing the card. In general, we had quite different opinions on it (varying from it being a horribly broken card to it being a useful, but not overly-powerful card). The only thing that we agreed upon was that its ability to _completely_ disallow any card-in-hand response is pretty ludicrous. There should always be some semblance of struggle, and TB pretty much removes that. From LSJ's card index: Thoughts Betrayed *** Combat Dominate 2 blood Normal: Only usable before combat begins. Opposing minion takes an additional 1 damage in the first round of combatduring strike resolution. Superior: Only usable before combat begins. Opposing minion cannot {play} any cards until after combat. Official Rulings -May (must) be played outside of combat (before combatbegins). [TOM 951209] -The superior version only prevents cards from being played. Cards already in play may be used as appropriate (errata). [RTR] -If the acting vampire uses Thoughts Betrayed, then the Blocking minion is prohibited from doing so. [TOM 951214] -Is played "as combat is enetred" - will not prevent reaction cards from being played. [RTR] --- My friend's solution is simple: Change the timing of TB thru its text: Inferior: Play before range is determined. Opposing minion takes an additional 1 damage in the first round of combat during strike resolution. Superior: Play before range is determined. Opposing minion cannot {play} any cards while range is being determined until after combat. (The second sentence could use some rewording) A TB deck will still be able to get the jump on most offensive moves its opponents may make. On the other hand, its opponents, after catching on to a TB deck, will be able to do a number of things: Aura Reading, Backstab, Claws of the Dead, Conquer the Beast, Disease, Disguised (Concealed) Weapon, Drawing Out the Beast, Fists of Death, Flesh of Marble, Horrid Reality, Illusions of the Kindred, Increased Strength, Infernal Pursuit (last ditch), Shadow of the Wolf, Silence of Death, Skin of Night, Thoughts Betrayed, Torn Signpost, Trap (why?), Weather Control, Wolf Claws, and Zip Gun. Of all the clans only Toreador is really limited in its choices (Aura Reading, Infernal Pursuit, Trap, Zip Gun), and if the Toreador are in a combat deck, they are likely to be using permanents. We thought it was an extremely elegant solution. Other opinions? We'd love to hear them. @ The Corrupter - Adrian Lee Sullivan @ GAT/CS/WS R+++* r(+)>++ # Gamer Coffee-Addict Scripter Author # C(+++)$ USX+$ N++ e+* @#$ Comments ? sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu $#@ tv(+)> X++ b++(+++) @#$ <http://cslab.uwlax.edu/~sulli_al/jyhad> $#@ PS+&-+ PE&-&++ z*+?

Basically the change is that you don't play Thoughts Betrayed until the "decide range" phase. Can the vamp whos Thoughts are Betrayed manuver, or does TB take place sort of between the "Pre manuver phase" and the "Manuver phase"? I am assuming that manuvers are out. Anyway, it is much better than TB as it is, but does not change TB too substantially, so it looks like a house rule that could work. I always prefered the TB just prohibits strikes idea that has been kicking around, but in lieu of that, this version looks like a pretty good fix. The vamp that plays TB still gets a big advantage, but at least the defender can use pre manuver hand damage bonuses (like Torn Signpost or Claws of the Dead), making close range combat still dangerous, and can still use some damage prevention (Skin of Steel and Flesh of Marble). Actually now that I think of it, in certain situations, this change makes TB fairly useless, like against Gangrel (who can still use Claws of the Dead and certain damage prevention), unless the TB player uses manuvers and ranged strikes (like every good Tremere should). This change would almost completely remove TB from the defensive card list (as it often would not save you unless you also had manuvers to back it up), and make it used almost purely in an offensive deck. Still, it looks like a better version of the card than the current one. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "Some of you are going to die Martyrs of course to the freedom I shall provide." -Genesis

The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> writes: >From LSJ's card index: Actually, it's Shane Travis' (Nicole Roy account usurper)'s card index. I simply make copies available from my web page. >We thought it was an extremely elegant solution. Other opinions? We'd >love to hear them. Yep. Nothing like house'ing a combat card to be played during combat :-) -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | I am Barney of Borg. http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | You will be nauseated. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

On 2 Jul 1996, PDB6 wrote: > Basically the change is that you don't play Thoughts Betrayed until the > "decide range" phase. Can the vamp whos Thoughts are Betrayed manuver, or > does TB take place sort of between the "Pre manuver phase" and the > "Manuver phase"? I am assuming that manuvers are out. Between phases. The wording (however cumbersome) is such that the fake-TB disallows playment of cards beginning with choosing range. So, manuevers are nixed. > Anyway, it is much better than TB as it is, but does not change TB too > substantially, so it looks like a house rule that could work. I always > prefered the TB just prohibits strikes idea that has been kicking around, > but in lieu of that, this version looks like a pretty good fix. > The vamp that plays TB still gets a big advantage, but at least the > defender can use pre manuver hand damage bonuses (like Torn Signpost or > Claws of the Dead), making close range combat still dangerous, and can > still use some damage prevention (Skin of Steel Skin of Steel cannot be played until damage is being prevented. > and Flesh of Marble). > Actually now that I think of it, in certain situations, this change makes > TB fairly useless, like against Gangrel (who can still use Claws of the > Dead and certain damage prevention), unless the TB player uses manuvers > and ranged strikes (like every good Tremere should). Exactly. With TB there was no need for robust combat, with new-improved-TB, robust combat becomes essential, and struggle is reintroduced. No longer is combat a cakewalk. (If my playgroup implements this house rule, my Giovanni Diablerie deck will certainly suffer :( ) > This change would > almost completely remove TB from the defensive card list (as it often > would not save you unless you also had manuvers to back it up), and make > it used almost purely in an offensive deck. Still, it looks like a better > version of the card than the current one. I think it is still extremely useful defensively, especially if combined with a single permanent (IR goggles, Saturday Night Special, Flak Jacket, etc.) [ quoted text not captured ]